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Is your connotation of the term "JRPG" negative?
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
- Start date
CouchMaster
Member
No not really. I like focused story driven games with unique gameplay over open world collectahons, so I always prefer them over WRPGs.
I'm actually quite surprised that this topic is a thing. I had no idea anyone game-savvy felt this way -- I'm still not convinced it's common.
...But maybe I'm lying to myself there. I think about things like how, for example, the Souls series is debated by many to not be a JRPG, and maybe I can understand how it's not difficult to read those claims as the kind of (not-so)-subtle racism the OP talks about. Something like "it's good / I like it, so it's not a JRPG." Ugh.
The JRPG is one of gaming's core genres, right up there with the 2D platformer, adventure, and puzzle genres. It deserves the utmost respect.
It's even more nonsensical to place WRPGs as superior, as if it's some kind of conflict. The design principles of Western role-playing games, especially tabletop games and early computer RPGs, are inseparably linked to those of JRPGs both classic and modern. In many ways, JRPGs embodied the design practices that are huge today before they became a real focus in Western games; and from the other angle, modern JRPGs are also one of the places where you can see the most respect for classic and timeless design principles that have fallen somewhat to the wayside in the modern Western game industry.
I'll say it this way: I would be apprehensive about hiring anyone who looks down on the JRPG genre for my dev team, regardless of what kind of game I was making.
On that note, I wonder -- it may well be true that this view is common in Western gamers, but surely it can't be common among developers, right?
This is what I mean to emphasize. I won't say anything about voice acting, or lewdness, or anything of that sort, because those things are not what defines a game genre. Whether they're distasteful or not, they don't matter. Game genres are defined by game design, and JRPGs are home to some of the best in the business.
...But maybe I'm lying to myself there. I think about things like how, for example, the Souls series is debated by many to not be a JRPG, and maybe I can understand how it's not difficult to read those claims as the kind of (not-so)-subtle racism the OP talks about. Something like "it's good / I like it, so it's not a JRPG." Ugh.
The JRPG is one of gaming's core genres, right up there with the 2D platformer, adventure, and puzzle genres. It deserves the utmost respect.
It's even more nonsensical to place WRPGs as superior, as if it's some kind of conflict. The design principles of Western role-playing games, especially tabletop games and early computer RPGs, are inseparably linked to those of JRPGs both classic and modern. In many ways, JRPGs embodied the design practices that are huge today before they became a real focus in Western games; and from the other angle, modern JRPGs are also one of the places where you can see the most respect for classic and timeless design principles that have fallen somewhat to the wayside in the modern Western game industry.
I'll say it this way: I would be apprehensive about hiring anyone who looks down on the JRPG genre for my dev team, regardless of what kind of game I was making.
On that note, I wonder -- it may well be true that this view is common in Western gamers, but surely it can't be common among developers, right?
This is what I mean to emphasize. I won't say anything about voice acting, or lewdness, or anything of that sort, because those things are not what defines a game genre. Whether they're distasteful or not, they don't matter. Game genres are defined by game design, and JRPGs are home to some of the best in the business.
The vita should pretty much be illegal at this point
It's taken on a negative connotation to me over time. It's my personal opinion that a majority of JRPGs have gravitated towards bizarre/creepy fan service that I just can't get past. I guess it has to do with the previous comment that graphical capability has caught up with the artist's intent or that intent has changed in recent years. I also feel like in recent years WRPGs have made significant strides forward in dialogue and writing that JRPGs have been slow to match. I'm sure I'll get a dozen people telling me I'm wrong but this is like my opinion man.
Lol what does 3DS even have to do with that post?
I absolutely love titles like FFVI-FFXII, Chrono Trigger, Xenogears/saga/blade, Kingdom Hearts, Pokemon, Valkyria Chronicles, Dark Chronicle, Yakuza (JRPG-like in many ways) etc. But I can't say there is much that interests my nowadays that get's the label JRPG slapped on it.
That said, I really love the Souls games and look forward to FFXV and KH3 very much.
That said, I really love the Souls games and look forward to FFXV and KH3 very much.
Personally, not at all. Perhaps it's too literal an interpretation, but to me a JRPG is simply an RPG that was developed in Japan. I understand that some Japanese RPGs can have Western sensibilities and vice versa, and on the other hand there are some generalisations you can make about each region's approach to RPGs; but this is one of my favourite genres and I love RPGs, no matter where they come from. I treat each RPG that I'm interested in on a case-by-case basis.
AppleSeason
Member
To me it just means "role playing game with major focus on story or characters and menu based combat" (For me KH would be an ARPG). There are good ones and then fucking aberrations that should not exist (I have a trauma with FFXIII) , but that's the same as any other genre.
In any case, I hate people that will classify them as trash because "selecting options is not playing".
In any case, I hate people that will classify them as trash because "selecting options is not playing".
Perverted stuff isn't a Vita exclusive.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
This is personal, but I hate chibi character model, mostly in handheld JRPG. Game has to be pretty fucking good in story or gameplay to make me get one with such art style.
The Baron Count
Member
A lot of the time you have to put up with that other stuff to get that design though. I do still associate JRPGs with stellar game design, but it would also be nice if I didn't have to basically shake my head every time they start going into their "plots".
Stuff like Nier and Lost Odyssey were a breath of fresh air for me. Though Nier certainly wasn't exactly strong from a gameplay perspective.
Genre distinctions aren't a science. It's sort of "you know it when you see it." The purpose is to provide a way of cataloging/short hand definition (ie, "this game is a JRPG, so you'll probably like it." "this game is a JRPG so you probably won't like it.") Simply defining it as a RPG made in Japan gives no useful information, and thus fails as a meaningful genre distinction. You can disagree, but in my opinion a JRPG is defined by:
-Turn-based battles
-Party building
-Linear Hero-saves-the-world plots
Under this definition, games like Xenoblade and Kingdom Hearts don't make the cut. But IMO, those games are so far removed from games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 4, and Legend of Dragoon that they shouldn't fall under the same genre anyway.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Ugh bow did I miss this. I love the EO games and wanted to buy the new one, but I don't want to support a studio making that even if it is "just DLC"
Obviously not, posts like that just needlessly start fanboy wars imo.
I don't bother using the term "JRPG" because it means nothing to me. The J means Japanese. Okay, so Dark Souls and the Tales series are both these things. But they are both RPGs, so what's the point of pointing out what country they are from?
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
I don't bother using the term "JRPG" because it means nothing to me. The J means Japanese. Okay, so Dark Souls and the Tales series are both these things. But they are both RPGs, so what's the point of pointing out what country they are from?
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
Only if you didn't play on PC. There plenty of WRPGs (Baldur's Gate) they just weren't on consoles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_rvM6hubs8 Relevant here and I agree with them.
Basically they define JRPG by the fact that is focused on the story and less on the player experience. Meaning your going through the world as this specific character and less you're making your own story. Even in case like persona where you can decide the relationships of your character, the main story and main characters are still the same.
There are more lewd games now, but some people here make it sound like it's everything coming out of japan.
Basically they define JRPG by the fact that is focused on the story and less on the player experience. Meaning your going through the world as this specific character and less you're making your own story. Even in case like persona where you can decide the relationships of your character, the main story and main characters are still the same.
There are more lewd games now, but some people here make it sound like it's everything coming out of japan.
I don't bother using the term "JRPG" because it means nothing to me. The J means Japanese. Okay, so Dark Souls and the Tales series are both these things. But they are both RPGs, so what's the point of pointing out what country they are from?
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
It offcourse not a clear set of rules, which is why I don't like it when people discuss the definition of a certain subgenre at lenght. It is just convienent to have some easy terms to distinct a Fallout game from Persona game, instead of solely calling it an RPG.
Same goes for any other media and even consumable products as well. A French crossaint is not necessarily made in France and a Dutch band may very well write a typical Irish folk song or a Middle Eastern piece. And most people will immediately recognise what you mean by adding the country to the term. Approaching it as some kind of logical science is not going to change that.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
I understand this feeling and it is one of the horrible truths of japanese anime, games and when they cross over at times. I have 2 friends who used to enjoy Jrpgs but have since stopped playing them or play them rarely. One friend has simply moved on to shooters because he wanted to follow the flow of popularity in gaming. The other friend simply won't play Jrpgs that look and act too 'anime'. I really thought things could only get better when we had the big boom of creativity and anime exposure in the west from 1996-2003 but I was severely wrong.
Japanese games in general took a huge fall from grace from the mainstream around 2005-2008 and a part of this(I'm not trying to point fingers or blame) was the fact that exclusivity was purchased for some big name Jrpg developers and games on a system that simply did not sell well in Japan(Lost Odyssey and Tales of Vesperia). Another huge part of this was the big turn that anime in general took, which had a domino effect on a lot of their games and movies. Instead of interweaving plots about life, science, goals, and hardships, things slowly shifted to shows and games more about relationships and 'moe'/'ecchi' moments between leads. Maybe this was to get quick views and sales, or maybe it is a representation of the lowering percentage of relationships in Japan. This is where the disconnect really happened with the west. A lot of people here, in the UK and US in general do not like, nor want to be associated with this type of imagery:
This image is Hyperdimension Neptunia, an rpg that shares something in common with some other japanese games presented on this website. The minute a thread is started about it or any other japanese game like it, it is immediately made fun of and 'shunned' by Neogaf. This view is also present in mainstream media and review sites. That's why you'll mainly see sites with lower viewers or with a japan gaming focus actually talk about this game and others like it in an in-depth manner.
Is that a problem? Yes. However, I'm not going to defend this game nor any like it because I am also not a fan of it's style nor how it conveys what it is. It's just not my taste. The only way to get me to play it is if you said the gameplay or story is above par, which I would forgive the artstyle for. So basically, I guess you can say I'm blaming the times changing and what people focused on changing, so much so that it alienated a large group of people, myself included. This is also one of the reasons why the term 'jrpg' was made as a separation.
flatearthpandas
Member
Not at all, I love JRPGs and vastly prefer them to what I've recently experienced from console WRPGs.
I think the Western media and overall perspective is very much down on them and I would certainly believe Japanese developers getting that idea. Obviously they know that they have a fanbase here or else so many of them wouldn't get brought over to the West, so I don't think that fanbase is the best to consider this particular question. Honestly, I don't think a forum thread can tackle it. However, one person could easily look through articles and features from western media pertaining to JRPGs and make an argument as to how they are portrayed.
I think the Western media and overall perspective is very much down on them and I would certainly believe Japanese developers getting that idea. Obviously they know that they have a fanbase here or else so many of them wouldn't get brought over to the West, so I don't think that fanbase is the best to consider this particular question. Honestly, I don't think a forum thread can tackle it. However, one person could easily look through articles and features from western media pertaining to JRPGs and make an argument as to how they are portrayed.
This is kind of true though. I've owned a Vita for years and this is my favorite genre, but the Vita seems to get most of the things that seem creepy and have always seemed creepy (talking about NIS, Idea Factory, Compile Hearts, etc). I'm not saying that they are bad games or that they even necessarily deserve to be considered creepy (and I'm not saying otherwise either), but it seems they've always had that stigma. The difference is that on the PSP, PS2, etc., there were plenty of other games to balance them and on the Vita that is basically all there is.
No one could honestly would mean that, especially outside of Japan.
NullPointer
Member
Generally yes.
Immediate associations are weird game titles that sound like three random words that were pulled out of a hat - usually with just as awkward sounding subtitles. Then you get the team of characters, usually very young, but with a very strong art style which either turns me off immediately or finds me interested - but every time I've every jumped in there is always one super-annoying high-pitched voice screaming child/monster/pet/goblin whatever that ends up driving me bonkers. I just can't do it. Haven't tried since around the mid-period of the 360's heyday though.
Gameplay-wise I'm more than cool with turn based battles, random battles, arcane class upgrade systems, relationship systems and battle systems - its the weirdness surrounding it all that usually keeps me away. But that's probably just cultural differences and not something these games need to fix. With so many indies trying so many new ideas I'm bound to find something truly JRPG under the hood, but with a different outward form that'll hook me good.
Immediate associations are weird game titles that sound like three random words that were pulled out of a hat - usually with just as awkward sounding subtitles. Then you get the team of characters, usually very young, but with a very strong art style which either turns me off immediately or finds me interested - but every time I've every jumped in there is always one super-annoying high-pitched voice screaming child/monster/pet/goblin whatever that ends up driving me bonkers. I just can't do it. Haven't tried since around the mid-period of the 360's heyday though.
Gameplay-wise I'm more than cool with turn based battles, random battles, arcane class upgrade systems, relationship systems and battle systems - its the weirdness surrounding it all that usually keeps me away. But that's probably just cultural differences and not something these games need to fix. With so many indies trying so many new ideas I'm bound to find something truly JRPG under the hood, but with a different outward form that'll hook me good.
GloriousBagel
Banned
Don't pin it on him, you're making it seem like he's trying to start something.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I don't bother using the term "JRPG" because it means nothing to me. The J means Japanese. Okay, so Dark Souls and the Tales series are both these things. But they are both RPGs, so what's the point of pointing out what country they are from?
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
J here stands for Japanese-styled. Dark Souls plays like a western-styled RPG.
Night Hunter
Banned
positive for older games, pretty negative for newer ones. The direction this thread has taken should answer why.
ActuallyHulk
Banned
If I hear a game is a JRPG I usually hear that I will likely enjoy the game more than whatever AAA annual franchise shlock is being crapped out this year. It's been my favorite genre since the SNES days despite the problems it's had lately. Square Enix E3 conference probably bored a fair amount of people but for me it was a slice of heaven.
This doesn't match most other folks' definition though. The OP even mentioned Xenoblade Chronicles X as a JRPG. Most people think of Tales, Star Ocean, Kingdom Hearts, Xenoblade, Final Fantasy XV, etc. as JRPGs.
What makes Dark Souls play like a "western-styled RPG"?
I mean, not really? He specifically mentions Xenoblade X as an example of how the people making the game are distancing themselves away from the label, so if anything it supports the oppposite of what you're saying, that it takes more than just being developed in Japan to matter.
I was talking to someone who regularly games but not rpgs and when I said I play a lot of jrpgs his response was:
"I didn't know people actually played those"
I was actually a little offended at his ignorance. He made it sound like jrpgs are these weird games that had no target audience outside Japan.
"I didn't know people actually played those"
I was actually a little offended at his ignorance. He made it sound like jrpgs are these weird games that had no target audience outside Japan.
Fleshfeast
Member
This articulates better than I could some of the issues I have with Japanese games in general, and part of why I avoid them. I grew up on Japanese games, I used to marathon every Final Fantasy when it came out, up through 9. Sometime in the early 2000s, when I was in college, I shifted away from Japanese games in general. The rise of the FPS (my fav genre) probably had a big influence on this as well. Around that time I also ended my 2-3 year long obsession with anime. Now I pretty much won't watch any anime, won't play games with an anime aesthetic, and only play the rare Japanese game. I own 40+ games for my current gen console, and ONE of them is Japanese (The Evil Within).
EDIT: My bad, I read that as gamers
flatearthpandas
Member
Player primarily controls a single character, not a party, and the gameplay is action based. Yes, I'm sure you can name games that break the general trend, but surely you recognize there are trends in the console RPGs originating from the west and east lately.
Games, not gamers. You're actually agreeing with what he said.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
I have a negative image of JRPG's because of assumptions I have like...
1. Anime art style
2. Delicate/soft/boy-ish male characters
3. Cheesy and/or cliche story lines
Thats it mostly. I dont mind gameplay that is grind-centric. As long as the combat is relatively fun and there are cool items to collect etc.
1. Anime art style
2. Delicate/soft/boy-ish male characters
3. Cheesy and/or cliche story lines
Thats it mostly. I dont mind gameplay that is grind-centric. As long as the combat is relatively fun and there are cool items to collect etc.
Yeah if the Elder Scrolls was the only RPG series we looked at. Its generally only western in that the aesthetic is western fantasy based.
JRPGs are easily my favorite genre so I have a positive association with the word, but the last 10 years have been tough to be into JRPGs. They were few and far between, and some of the bigger ones weren't great at all. That said there were still shining gems that made it bearable(like Persona 3/4, Xenoblade, and KH Birth By Sleep).
Right now I'm more excited than ever about them. Every game I want to be made is being made, and new games I feel I might be interested in are also being made.
Right now I'm more excited than ever about them. Every game I want to be made is being made, and new games I feel I might be interested in are also being made.
Definitely agree with this. My interest in a game dies immediately when the term 'JRPG' is used to be describe it.
There's also always a "cute" pet-like character which communicates solely via cheeps.
It's impossible to shake the feeling that they're made for children. Sorry guys.
That's not really true. Sure, there are titles like Criminal Girls, but there are also RPGs which feature hardly any or no fanservice at all on the system like Ys Celceta, the Kiseki games, Persona 4 Golden, Tales of Hearts/Innocence R, Oreshika 2, Operation Abyss, Mind Zero, the later Atelier games, etc.
YianGaruga
Banned
Oh and the one about the Vita in the beginning of the thread doesn't? This thread wouldn't have to be about systems at all if not for that post.
You can't judge an entire system's library based on a few games or screenshots.
BlackIronCount
Member
NO!
it's always positive , it's also the only reason i haven't abandon console gaming.
It's my favourites since i started play them. and would remain so in the future
it's always positive , it's also the only reason i haven't abandon console gaming.
It's my favourites since i started play them. and would remain so in the future
flatearthpandas
Member
Yeah, that or most of the popular WRPGs that JRPGs are compared against in Western media. Do you have some relevant counterexample that doesn't fit into "exception?"
The big Western RPGs, correct me if I'm wrong, are TES, Fallout, Diablo, Deus Ex, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc.
All action gameplay with limited to no control over a full party. Dragon Age gives the only option for full party control, but only if you hate yourself.
Are there party based, turn based, Western RPGs? Yeah, sure. But they are not the norm, especially considering what is popular and what the media uses in their comparisons.
WickedLaharl
Member
I want to say no but i'm drowning in idea factory shit.
Icyflamez96
Member
I don't bother using the term "JRPG" because it means nothing to me. The J means Japanese. Okay, so Dark Souls and the Tales series are both these things. But they are both RPGs, so what's the point of pointing out what country they are from?
Should Legend of Zelda be a Japanese Adventure game and Uncharted be an American Adventure game?
I know a lot of people define a "JRPG" as an anime-like, (usually) turn based RPG where the main cast is young adults and teenagers, but in the 90s they were just called RPGs, what changed?
I know it's dumb thing to argue semantics but I never saw the point lol an RPG is an RPG
Probably because most JRPG and WRPGs nowadays tend to fall into their own distinct styles (with some exceptions) often enough to the point that the two terms are commonly used throughout the industry.
I'd say yes.
Funny thing is that i had more fun with the creepy stuff lately than the praised stuff simply because the former ended up having such crappy stories/dilaogue they made for good comic material while the latter simply offered random cliche stories and overall bland gameplay.
Note that i have no issue saying Neptunia is garbage, but i still overall had more fun with it than Persona 4 for example due to how retarded it was.
Funny thing is that i had more fun with the creepy stuff lately than the praised stuff simply because the former ended up having such crappy stories/dilaogue they made for good comic material while the latter simply offered random cliche stories and overall bland gameplay.
Note that i have no issue saying Neptunia is garbage, but i still overall had more fun with it than Persona 4 for example due to how retarded it was.
Dynasty8
Member
Recently it has been negative.
Growin up it was just "console RPGs" for me. I played everything from FF1-9, FFT, Xenogears, Chrono games, Vagrant Story, Secret of Mana, Earthbound, Breath of Fire and many other classics. My main gripe is that things just got way too "anime" for me. Everything from the characters to story to the voice acting...it's an instant turn off IMO. I just hope FFVII doesn't deviate from its' true nature.
Growin up it was just "console RPGs" for me. I played everything from FF1-9, FFT, Xenogears, Chrono games, Vagrant Story, Secret of Mana, Earthbound, Breath of Fire and many other classics. My main gripe is that things just got way too "anime" for me. Everything from the characters to story to the voice acting...it's an instant turn off IMO. I just hope FFVII doesn't deviate from its' true nature.
Hang on, plenty of WRPGs are party-based. And by that logic, Ys is a WRPG.
It seems to me that people label Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls as not-JRPGs because then it allows them to keep on criticising JRPGs for always using an anime-aesthetic. To be honest RPGs in general are such a broad church that defining them as only either 'rpgs in a traditional Japanese style' or 'rpgs from every western country for the last thirty years' are both a bit useless these days when modern games are often trying to do something new.
For me, since JRPGs is very much a umbrella term that encompasses a number sub-genres, overall I would not consider it having a negative connotations.
I...I have no objections