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[Verendus]

See, you group them together and say "HD consoles." Those third party mutliplats may convince someone to buy a console but they won't help anyone decide on your console.

Not having them is worse than having them.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The titles that are making waves in the industry, or that most gamers pay attention to, are assets to have in your portfolio. Regardless of whether they're available on other platforms or not, they can sway a person from not choosing your console if you don't have them. It's better to have them and then work on your own exclusive games, services and brand to entice people to choose you.

Few people are going to choose a console that has Mario and Zelda over a console that has Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto. The latter two are much more significant today. And it's not just those titles. It's dozens of other third party titles, all ranging from decent sellers to blockbusters that will not be found on a Nintendo console.

All of that has an effect. It builds up.

Leaving behind where most of the industry is heading to go throw pebbles in that pond over there in the corner just means you'll be increasingly isolated.

 

[Gartooth]

Not having them is worse than having them.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. The titles that are making waves in the industry, or that most gamers pay attention to, are assets to have in your portfolio. Regardless of whether they're available on other platforms or not, they can sway a person from not choosing your console if you don't have them. It's better to have them and then work on your own exclusive games, services and brand to entice people to choose you.

Few people are going to choose a console that has Mario and Zelda over a console that has Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto. The latter two are much more significant today. And it's not just those titles. It's dozens of other third party titles, all ranging from decent sellers to blockbusters that will not be found on a Nintendo console.

All of that has an effect. It builds up.

Leaving behind where most of the industry is heading to go throw pebbles in that pond over there in the corner just means you'll be increasingly isolated.

You did a good job explaining that point. Having 3rd party multiplatform games isn't a huge advantage, it is instead a huge disadvantage if you happen to be in charge of one of the platforms that gets left out. That is where Nintendo's problem is, many of these popular games are winding up exclusive to non-Nintendo systems. Now when consumers look at the Wii U they won't be thinking of it as a primary console, the will think of it as a secondary system to play Nintendo games after they get their PS4/Xbox One, and that is a big problem that Nintendo faces.

 

[Dali]

So lol who will be super saiyin goku in that scenario and avenge him?

3DS

 

[Oppo]

People keep saying this as though the Wii isn't the most profitable current generation console by a huge margin.

Oh, the Wii was insanely successful and made Nintendo bazillions of dollars, but it was all for nothing because it's not selling RIGHT NOW!

Well to be fair, it's kind of true, what you just said. It's all about the lines going up on the graphs over time.

It's not for nothing, the Wii is considered a success, it just fell off surprisingly fast. The Wii U on the other hand has shitty lines creeping down from a small start, which is why all the hand-wringing is happening. The degree is part of the story. It's no longer a slow start, it's historically bad.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Nintendo has had good eShop content, I agree with that.

I did have fun playing NintendoLand. Many games were hit or miss, for every poor game such as Octopus Dance there was another such as the Balloon Fight or Donkey Kong minigame that made up for it. However I was talking about changing game design in existing IP in regards to the quote, NintendoLand is more of it's own thing and I wasn't trying to discredit the game, I give Nintendo credit for trying something new with it.

However you are taking a lot of double standards in regards to game design. You can't say "NintendoLand is innovative game design!" when it uses common themes such as hide and seek, obstacle courses, and shooters and applies motion controls, yet at the same time call out LittleBigPlanet as "just another platformer" when it applies enough creation tools to let the user craft any kind of levels they want.

Regardless of the enjoyment you get from playing LBP (I found it pretty boring to be honest) it is probably one of the boldest platformers of the last 10 years in what it sought out to do. Giving Nintendo credit for trying to use motion controls to change established formulas in their games is fine, but your train of thought that Sony's games are all copycats and lack originality as if they just follow the crowd on what's popular is complete bullshit.

I'm not trying to dump on Sony, I think their games are mostly excellent. They do cool things within existing genres, but with Nintendo I feel they define genres. Mario is held up as a gold standard of platformers, even if you feel they're getting derivative. Zelda doesn't really have an equivalent series, neither does Pokemon. Or Pikmin, or Animal Crossing, or Metroid. There's a reason people keep asking for and buying sequels to these games, it's because no other company makes those kinds of games. There are a handful of games that might be similar, but a Sonic plays nothing like a Mario.

Whereas I feel like if I want to play a game like Killzone, or Uncharted, or inFamous, or God of War there are plenty of those. And maybe that's just because they're more recently emerging genres - on the NES you could find plenty of Zelda clones.

 

[Shion]

See, you group them together and say "HD consoles." Those third party mutliplats may convince someone to buy a console but they won't help anyone decide on your console.

3rd parties provide content, they help to make the console attractive and the ecosystem healthy.

1st party games, product positioning, services, features, advertising and pricing decide the level of success.

This was always the case since the days of VCS.

 

[kuroshiki]

I'm not trying to dump on Sony, I think their games are mostly excellent. They do cool things within existing genres, but with Nintendo I feel they define genres. Mario is held up as a gold standard of platformers, even if you feel they're getting derivative. Zelda doesn't really have an equivalent series, neither does Pokemon. Or Pikmin, or Animal Crossing, or Metroid. There's a reason people keep asking for and buying sequels to these games, it's because no other company makes those kinds of games. There are a handful of games that might be similar, but a Sonic plays nothing like a Mario.

Whereas I feel like if I want to play a game like Killzone, or Uncharted, or inFamous, or God of War there are about a million of those. And maybe that's just because they're more recently emerging genres - on the NES you could find plenty of Zelda clones.

What.

Name ONE game that is in the market that has the same calibur of Uncharted, or God of War. Millions?

 

[kingkaiser]

Thing is

They wouldn't be identical. Nintendo's ones have their games

Nintendo could do powerful and unique controller. They need to just weight more towards high end tech. An XBO lite machine with enhanced split controller Wii Remote might have worked better.

All the other features would be different like MiiVerse etc.

Nintendo's choice of controller and low end tech (compared to PS4 etc) is failing badly.

I think you are totally overestimating the actual number of core gamers worldwide, and also their willingness to buy three consoles just to play all available exclusives and to use the minor services.

Three consoles with the same hardware, the same 3rd party games, and almost the same services would cannibalize themselves and their market even more than they do now.

People also underestimate how much the growth of last gen was provided because of the Wii phenomenon.

That's why even optimistic predictions for the next gen all suggest a slight decline in overall sales.

All three companies are kind of doomed to aim at the casual audience sooner or later.

 

[Etnos]

I've become very pessimistic about Iwata and Reggie.

 

[Aaron Strife]

What.

Name ONE game that is in the market that has the same calibur of Uncharted, or God of War. Millions?

God of War is hardly an original concept. I could play Devil May Cry, or Ninja Gaiden, or Bayonetta.

Uncharted less so but you still have games like the new Tomb Raider.

Millions was highly exaggerated. My point is they don't stand alone.

 

[Dave Long]

People also underestimate how much the growth of last gen was provided because of the Wii phenomenon.

This is so true. You can see it in this and many threads on GAF. Gamers have decided that the Wii never happened, but the sales numbers that everyone is up against now won't let anyone who is looking at sales forget it.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I'm not trying to dump on Sony, I think their games are mostly excellent. They do cool things within existing genres, but with Nintendo I feel they define genres. Mario is held up as a gold standard of platformers, even if you feel they're getting derivative. Zelda doesn't really have an equivalent series, neither does Pokemon. Or Pikmin, or Animal Crossing, or Metroid. There's a reason people keep asking for and buying sequels to these games, it's because no other company makes those kinds of games. There are a handful of games that might be similar, but a Sonic plays nothing like a Mario.

Whereas I feel like if I want to play a game like Killzone, or Uncharted, or inFamous, or God of War there are about a million of those. And maybe that's just because they're more recently emerging genres - on the NES you could find plenty of Zelda clones.

See, I don't even particularly think Mario has platformers on lock anymore. Rayman Origins and soon Legends kind of crap all over the derivative and dreary looking NSMB series. 3D platforming they sure made their own though with titles like 64 and Galaxy, but now theyre punting out a "safe" title thats trying to entice non 3D Mario enjoyers into the fold. Casual time!

Whats the Zelda equivalent? Well its Demon's Souls, and now of course the multiplatform Dark Souls. Inspiring an entire wave of passive online concepts, such as to be found in ZombiU, Destiny, and more to come. Can't remember the last time Zelda inspired the entire industry... Z targeting?

Pokemon is Pokemon and will keep on Poketrucking, Thats a portable only behemoth however, so no dog in the console fight.

Metroid has long since jumped the quality shark, thats no longer a title to even be remotely proud of. You got people doing better with the formula from indies like Cave Story and Shadow Complex and all the others, to genuine 3D go-arounds like Arkham Asylum.

Pikmin is... not even a big deal I'm afraid. You can rally up the entire XBLA or PSN libraries to match that one off the list. And lets not pretend Animal Crossing is some paragon of gameplay that can only be found on Nintendo. All of this while on Nintendo consoles there are no answers to the Halos, the Uncharteds, Last of Us, Infamous, GT6/Forza, GTA's and so on.

The Nintendo niche just doesn't have enough ammo to keep a console going on its own. Zeldas arent even big sellers anymore for crying out loud. Portable is another story as Nintendo has that shit tight, but as far as home consoles are concerned, Nintendo is heading into the sunset.

This is so true. You can see it in this and many threads on GAF. Gamers have decided that the Wii never happened, but the sales numbers that everyone is up against now won't let anyone who is looking at sales forget it.

And that extended audience was left untouched and unmanaged by Nintendo for 4-5 years. During which they all found tablet gaming, smartphone gaming, social network gaming, and won't be coming back into the console ecosystem anytime soon. So yes, they are by and large totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. As evidenced by the Wii brand meaning NOTHING for WiiU.

 

[Can Crusher]

This is so true. You can see it in this and many threads on GAF. Gamers have decided that the Wii never happened, but the sales numbers that everyone is up against now won't let anyone who is looking at sales forget it.

Between the Ps3 and the Xbox 360 there's 140/150 million consoles. Then you have PC game sales kicking ass too.

Does it really matter if 100 million of the people who bought the Wii, and only bought 3 or 4 games total for it... don't come back?

 

[kuroshiki]

God of War is hardly an original concept. I could play Devil May Cry, or Ninja Gaiden, or Bayonetta.

Uncharted less so but you still have games like the new Tomb Raider.

Millions was highly exaggerated. My point is they don't stand alone.

None of them are same as God of War. It is not original concept per se, but whoever said 'oh I have ninja gaiden therefore playing god of war is totally unnecessary' is full of BS.and you know it.

Uncharted, the only comparable example IS tomb raider, yet they do not even offer the same experience.

I know you are trying to give Nintendo a credit, but give other developers credit where it is due. Nintendo is not the only company in the world with the heart of innovation and genre defining experience.

 

[Aaron Strife]

See, I don't even particularly think Mario has platformers on lock anymore. Rayman Origins and soon Legends kind of crap all over the derivative and dreary looking NSMB series. 3D platforming they sure made their own though with titles like 64 and Galaxy, but now theyre punting out a "safe" title thats trying to entice non 3D Mario enjoyers into the fold. Casual time!

And how much did Rayman Origins sell compared to New Super Mario Bros Wii? Clearly the market disagrees. As for 3D World, as someone who's actually played the game I thought it was fun as hell and offers a lot that previous Mario games didn't. If a consequence of that is more people play and enjoy the game then boo fuckity hoo.

Whats the Zelda equivalent? Well its Demon's Souls, and now of course the multiplatform Dark Souls. Inspiring an entire wave of passive online concepts, such as to be found in ZombiU, Destiny, and more to come. Can't remember the last time Zelda inspired the entire industry... Z targeting?

First, I wouldn't consider Demon's/Dark Souls to be a "Zelda equivalent." Great games to be sure, but hardly the same. Also it's incredibly cynical to say a game needs to "inspire" the industry to be any good. What's the last game that really did that? Call of Duty? GTA3?

Metroid has long since jumped the quality shark, thats no longer a title to even be remotely proud of. You got people doing better with the formula from indies like Cave Story and Shadow Complex and all the others, to genuine 3D go-arounds like Arkham Asylum.

Well, Metroid Other-M was poop, I'll grant you that. Metroid Prime 3 on the other hand was great and I wouldn't mind seeing another one. I guess I was more referring to the Prime series than something like Super Metroid, which is still pretty damn good.

The Nintendo niche just doesn't have enough ammo to keep a console going on its own. Zeldas arent even big sellers anymore for crying out loud. Portable is another story as Nintendo has that shit tight, but as far as home consoles are concerned, Nintendo is heading into the sunset.

lol? Twilight Princess is the second highest selling game in the series, behind only Ocarina of Time, which Nintendo squeezed another 3 million out of thanks to the 3DS port. Skyward Sword sold 3.42 million copies in one month. This statement is completely baseless and I see people parroting it all the time.

Also love how you talk about sales when your list is XBLA games, indie games, and Atlus.

None of them are same as God of War. It is not original concept per se, but whoever said 'oh I have ninja gaiden therefore playing god of war is totally unnecessary' is full of BS.and you know it.

That's not what I said? If I want to play a game in that genre, I have more options than God of War, to a point where I won't be itching for a new GoW specifically when I want to play an action game. Whereas I feel Nintendo tends to have a stronger hold on the genres they develop in. That's why developers bitch about having to compete with Nintendo.

I know you are trying to give Nintendo a credit, but give other developers credit where it is due. Nintendo is not the only company in the world with the heart of innovation and genre defining experience.

I've given credit where it's due. I think Sony is great. I just wouldn't quite put them on the same pedigree as Nintendo, even now. That's completely a matter of opinion and you're not going to change that, sorry if you disagree.

 

[EatinOlives]

People keep saying this as though the Wii isn't the most profitable current generation console by a huge margin.

Oh, the Wii was insanely successful and made Nintendo bazillions of dollars, but it was all for nothing because it's not selling RIGHT NOW!

That's how a business works. Nobody in business ever says "well you fucked up the launch of your major product and now you're stuck with a console that's right now getting abysmal sales and poor support for the next five years but you did really well that one time five years ago so it's OK!"

Nintendo's successful console also happened to be completely unsustainable with millions of non-returning customers, third party support was never there, and even Nintendo's own support was almost entirely MIA the latter two of its six years in the market.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Yes but thats the thing isn't it? With all those things combined, small sales, big sales, little sales, huge sales, people are attracted to the consoles and platforms with ALL the experiences. Not "those Nintendo franchises", but the unbounded first party quality content and third party content found on Xbox, Playstation, PC.

Yeah sure, Zelda is an alright selling franchise. Good even! But when you're making an island out of your home console platform with no third party content, you need to be surpassing Halo numbers with those sorts of franchises. Mario Kart still got it, Smash too I'm sure. They're next year though, long after another volley of third parties betting on Nintendo sorting their shit out this Winter. Spoilers: they didn't, and that's all she wrote.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

This is off topic but re: Zelda alternatives, there aren't any, there are literally no other franchises that do the Zelda thing (if Zelda is a sandwich, then yes there are other games that have similar turkey or have tomatos or mayo, but none that are the entire sandwich), which is both surprising (most popular formulas get aped), and also distressing because there's always a loud clamoring for Zelda to become something else but Zelda but that would leave people that enjoy Zelda out in the cold.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Yes but thats the thing isn't it? With all those things combined, small sales, big sales, little sales, huge sales, people are attracted to the consoles and platforms with ALL the experiences. Not "those Nintendo franchises", but the unbounded first party quality content and third party content found on Xbox, Playstation, PC.

Yeah sure, Zelda is an alright selling franchise. Good even! But when you're making an island out of your home console platform with no third party content, you need to be surpassing Halo numbers with those sorts of franchises. Mario Kart still got it, Smash too I'm sure. They're next year though, long after another volley of third parties betting on Nintendo sorting their shit out this Winter. Spoilers: they didn't, and that's all she wrote.

Oh, I was never denying that Nintendo's in a crappy situation with Wii U and third parties. But their games have a certain appeal that's going to carry their brand forward, even if the hardware barely chugs along. And Wii U will probably fall on the lower end of Nintendo's consoles, sales-wise, but once DKC, Mario 3D World, and Mario Kart 8 land, I think they'll be fine.

Sony and MS don't rely as heavily on first-party software to carry them forward (well, MS has Halo), but that's fine because they have great third party support to make up for it. And that is a challenge for Nintendo and something they're having to deal with now more than ever.

 

[Gartooth]

This is off topic but re: Zelda alternatives, there aren't any, there are literally no other franchises that do the Zelda thing (if Zelda is a sandwich, then yes there are other games that have similar turkey or have tomatos or mayo, but none that are the entire sandwich), which is both surprising (most popular formulas get aped), and also distressing because there's always a loud clamoring for Zelda to become something else but Zelda but that would leave people that enjoy Zelda out in the cold.

If your talking about adventure styled fantasy games with dungeon crawling then there are a lot of them out there, they just do things much differently from the traditional Zelda series. (Souls series, Elder Scrolls)

So yes there aren't really any alternatives to Zelda style gameplay/experiences, but in many ways there are alternative games for say a traditional gamer that wants a fantasy styled action/RPG game.

 

[Snowden's Secret]

If your talking about adventure styled fantasy games with dungeon crawling then there are a lot of them out there, they just do things much differently from the traditional Zelda series. (Souls series, Elder Scrolls)

So yes there aren't really any alternatives to Zelda style gameplay, but in many ways there are alternative games for say a traditional gamer that wants a fantasy styled action/RPG game.

Yeah, I'm speaking of the gameplay (puzzle based progression, world manipulating items, specifically). There are tons of fantasy adventure games, though, I agree.

 

[Fredrik]

Monetary reasons have made 3rd party exclusives disappear.

No one is going to invest in any serious projects just to release them on a single console in this day and age (let alone on a console that is bombing).

Publishers make serious investments only for multiplatform games because they can target millions of users at once.

Nintendo won't be getting any relevant 3rd party exclusives.

While I agree on your conclusion I can't help thinking that this whole multiplatform frenzy may affect Sony and MS too, in a surprising way, because right now lots of great AAA titles are developed for PS3/360 too besides PS4/XB1, some even exclusively on current gen. How are they going to get people to buy a new $400-$500 console if the biggest games comes to a console they already own too? By hyping 1080p, particles and Share features?
It's a much bigger struggle for Nintendo of course, but after playing TLoU and seeing GTAV I kind of think that next gen showings so far has been a bit meh to be honest. The announcement trailers all look nice and cool but gameplay videos shows that it's all a bit samey when you're actually playing the games.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Yeah, I'm speaking of the gameplay (puzzle based progression, world manipulating items, specifically). There are tons of fantasy adventure games, though, I agree.

I feel like this might be a factor of time going on and developers chasing the next big thing. There were plenty of Zelda 1 and 2 clones on the NES, a few more on the SNES, and after that Zelda was the only one to really persist.

Who knows, maybe in 20 years Call of Duty will be the only big name FPS in town.

 

[MercGH]

I used to be a huge Nintendo fan having owned NES, SNES, N64, GC, and Wii. It's a shame. There just not the same nomore. They dont make consoles for gamers no more. They dont even make real consoles nomore. They make novelty consoles to try to get a mass audience through gimmicks. First it was the easy like TV remote controller, Wiimote which was genius because it appealed to anyone and anyone can easily use it, and now they tried to do the same with the tablet revolution with the Wii:U.

They dont make consoles like before revolutionizing the N64 for having 4 players, or the SNES with its one of a kind audio chip. They were not even at e3 shows Nintendo's waning power in the industry. There online system is not for core gamers by Nintendo but for little kids. Nintendo doesn't support core gamers nomore. And we shouldn't support them either.

Nintendo is screwed with the Wii:U and hopefully they can learn They were idiots. They made an incredible amount of money with the furby like Wii and could have easily invested into a current generation console more powerful than the Xbox One and should have retained the Wiimote. It is an incredibly easy controller for anyone to use.

 

[BlackJace]

^ lol

 

[StevieP]

Amazing. In one post, not only was the Wii a Furby fad (not a market leader in sales for a normal generational length) but Nintendo wasn't even at e3!

 

[Chozolore]

Nintendo should stick to their guns, the ps4 and xbox one are not released yet and sure they will own the fps market, but we've yet to see what the market will support at high console prices beyond the early adopters, the unwashed masses are hardly spare cash aplenty anymore.

 

[Of All Trades]

Yeah, I'm speaking of the gameplay (puzzle based progression, world manipulating items, specifically). There are tons of fantasy adventure games, though, I agree.

Darksiders is a 3D Zelda clone. 3D Dot Heroes is a 2D Zelda clone.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

See, I don't even particularly think Mario has platformers on lock anymore. Rayman Origins and soon Legends kind of crap all over the derivative and dreary looking NSMB series.

Looks can be deceiving.

New Super Mario Brothers U along with the excellent Luigi DLC will be the better game.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Darksiders is a 3D Zelda clone. 3D Dot Heroes is a 2D Zelda clone.

Darksiders really isn't that similar to 3D Zelda. Or at least not as much as people seem to think. It's certainly not a "clone."

 

[MercuryLS]

Nintendo should stick to their guns, the ps4 and xbox one are not released yet and sure they will own the fps market, but we've yet to see what the market will support at high console prices beyond the early adopters, the unwashed masses are hardly spare cash aplenty anymore.

Early pre-orders point to strong demand for PS4/Xbox One. People expecting doom and gloom for next-gen are going to eat some crow come fall 2013 and early 2014. People are just waiting for real next-gen machines, not this last gen stopgap console called the Wii U. The Wii U kind of reminds me of the Dreamcast in that way, most people were waiting for PS2.

 

[shinra-bansho]

You know, people like to call the Wii U Nintendo's Dreamcast, but the only thing that's the same is

That it is tracking at similar sales levels (NPD) as the Dreamcast. Or if you prefer a more recent example, the Vita.

It will not be abandoned by Nintendo, as a company they are in a starkly different position than Sega was.

It's the fucking summertime. Nothing is selling well right now. Nintendo can't change sales of Wii U in the dead of summer. Let's just relax and see what happens this winter.

It is not "Summer" at fault for these terrible sales. There is a seasonal factor to video games purchasing, but pretending this is "a normal summer lull" is nonsense.

Weekly US sales rates for the year.

Jan-13	11400
Feb-13	16500
Mar-13	13400
Apr-13	9250
May-13	8250

It hasn't even really hit the middle of "summer" yet.

Maybe the TV console isn't as exciting to people anymore?

Anything to preserve the notion of Nintendo infallibility.

It's summer. It's the marketing. It's the economy.

It's almost as though some people are willing a market collapse, just so that the Wii U wasn't a poorly conceived product for the marketplace.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

That it is tracking at similar sales levels (NPD) as the Dreamcast. Or if you prefer a more recent example, the Vita.

It will not be abandoned by Nintendo, as a company they are in a starkly different position than Sega was.
It is not "Summer" at fault for these terrible sales. There is a seasonal factor to video games purchasing, but pretending this is "a normal summer lull" is nonsense.

Weekly US sales rates for the year.

Jan-13	11400
Feb-13	16500
Mar-13	13400
Apr-13	9250
May-13	8250

It hasn't even really hit the middle of "summer" yet.
Anything to preserve the notion of Nintendo infallibility.

It's summer. It's the marketing. It's the economy.

It's almost as though some people are willing a market collapse, just so that the Wii U wasn't a poorly conceived product for the marketplace.

It's the games, or lack thereof.
Which is finally going to change over the coming months.
Soon, a price drop. Sales will pick up after that.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Barring some pikmiracle, a price cut or some other revival strategy needs to be announced next financial meeting which is only a few weeks away.

 

[MercuryLS]

I was reading through this, and I think Phil Harrison says it best:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-playstation/2/

Harrison explains: “It was that if we can be the creative choice of the game developers, and the business choice of the publishers, then those two together give us a chance of becoming successful. In order to be very successful you need both elements; you can’t have one and not the other. I think this still holds true today for any company that wants to stay in the hardware platform business.”

Wii U fulfills neither of these objectives.