Metallix87
Member
Agreed on all counts.
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Iwata: "Some developers have become pessimistic about Wii U"
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Agreed on all counts.
What marketing? Nintendo cut off marketing once they realized the games wouldn't be out on time. They are, for all practical purposes, relaunching the console later this summer.
If Nintendo had been consistently advertising this thing for the last 8 months I would agree with you, but come on man.
Tragicomedy
Member
Iwata: "Some Egyptians feel disenfranchised with their government."
metalslimer
Member
It is sold at loss
I dismissed team Vita because it doesn't pose an argument, period.
Just because Sony designed a poorly selling handheld doesn't dismiss the high marks Sony's gotten with their design of the PS4. The PS4 is also more relevant as it's a competitor in the same market as the Wii U, which is what we're discussing.
fallingdove
Member
If we are just talking about hardware, the VITA destroys the 3DS in every conceivable way. The game library is where the 3DS really shines - so yes, I do wish that Nintendo had made a Vita. That would have been incredible.
I agree that the PS4 price is too close for comfort for Nintendo. It just rubs me the wrong way when it is labeled as $50 cheaper. If you buy a PS4 at launch and play this thing online for 5 years., you are looking at a $700 console most likely.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
In this sense maybe what Nintendo should have done was make the digital discount promotion a standard and permanent feature for all systems. (But this is something they could still do.)
With the digital rebate factored in, you get an automatic $5 back for every typically priced first party retail game on the eshop effectively making every first party game $45 - $55. They could have just lowered the price directly but I get the impression this was an attempt to not annoy retail partners. It doesn't *look* like they're undercutting retail on the eshop but they effectively are with the rebate points.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Its clearly not a marketing problem though the bad marketing did not help. Its the lack of software (third parties as there is only so much you can go with your 1st party). Furthermore the appeal of the WiiU is far far less than the Wii. The system itself is just not attractive right now unless you want to play Nintendo games.
PS+ pays for itself. You would probably get at least 500$ of free games. Furthermore online is not mandatory so I don't see why its included in the cost.
I think that a Wii U price drop is long overdue. They should be targeting the $129.99~$199.99 price range and make things happen before the holidays are upon us. E3 is past us now and with it the childish fantasy that Nintendo would gain any traction out of the event or even take some away from Sony/MS.
I was not aware. I remember reading somewhere that Sonny wasn't planning on that. Maybe as the pice was decided just right after the Microsoft E3 conference they prefered to destroy the competence and lose a bit of money that they would recover with games and PSPlus.
Nah, they should give it away for free.
Are you suggesting that Nintendo should drop the price of the Wii U to $129?
And I think Nintendo actually did gain some traction with E3, at least more than I expected given the other two were launching consoles.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't want to come across as a Sony apologist with this post, as I honestly loathe that multiplayer is going behind a paywall so much that I may very likely pass on the PS4, at least initially. And on that front, I have no problem praising Nintendo for not considering such shenanigans.
But having said that, this particular bullet point rings pretty hollow right now. You've already argued that Nintendo games are the main selling point of a Nintendo console. In light of that, what good is free online as a jab against the PS4? Aside from a few third party titles with significantly smaller communities relative to the competition, there's practically nothing to play until Mario Kart comes out.
metalslimer
Member
249 with nintendoland and game and wario since no one wants it alone. I think what many people are forgetting is. The 3ds will kill wiiu without a price drop
Metallix87
Member
What???
Realistically, a price drop is likely for this Fall, but it'll be $50 - $100.
Can Crusher
Banned
150$ price drop?
I look at it and all I see is trouble for Nintendo. They drop 50, it's not enough. They drop 100$ and they are gambling the house. 150? They are telling everybody their product is a failure.
Probably a small loss like with PS1/2. I bet the 4gb of extra GDDR5 ram had something to do with them taking a bit of a loss.
Pretty sure Sony has not said what ps4 costs to manufacture or whether it will be sold at a loss, so we don't know.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Not interested until they give me a box of cereal and $50 to take it off their hands.
Seriously though, they need to drop the price come Christmas. A $50-$100 drop is the only realistic drop though, they won't drop it more than $100.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
People are looking at the price of entry though. And currently Nintendo doesn't have enough online centric games to market free online to their advantage. Mario Kart and Smash Bros will help, but they're still a ways out, and even those aren't some sort of silver bullet for people's perception that Nintendo is lagging with online services.
They should be going into panic mode right now. Drastic circumstances require drastic measures otherwise they will just let all their chances slip by and by the time they do anything significant, it will be too late. They don't have to drop the price by $150 all at once, but that's the ballpark they should be aiming for.
This! Could not agree more! 3D is not the end all be all people!
Completely valid point. I think the value of "online" is much greater to a Sony gamer as compared to a Nintendo gamer. And I didn't mean that as a knock against Sony. The majority of games on the PS4 are meant to be enjoyed on online. The opposite is the case with Nintendo.
I was simply comparing the price points of the consoles. I think it is important to note that a PS4 is going to cost significantly more than $400 in the long run for most people. Of course, the mass market won't care and all they will see is "$399!!!"
fallingdove
Member
Lets not pretend that $50 for PS+ only gets you online access. Even if you do add that to the price, you get access to free games. Something that you wouldn't get from Nintendo's free service. At the end of the day, any value that Nintendo could have offered in terms of console performance tech or services was eaten up by the expensive tablet they built the system around.
Not even remotely true. Secondly, if online isn't an important or used feature for the majority of Wii U games, why do you list free online as a value add for the system?
old
Member
Seems to me that Nintendo has been pessimistic about the Wii U. Where is their support? The system has been out for half a year now and what's on tap is very lacking.
Where's a new original Zelda? All we've got is a Wind Waker remake to look forward to. No thanks! I played and beat that game a decade ago. I know most Zelda games are just rehashes at this point but that's taking the rehash thing too far even for me. Where's Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart and Donkey Kong? They're coming. Well, when they get here may be I'll think about it. But they're not here yet so I won't. Where's the new Super Mario game in the vein of 64/Sunshine/Galaxy? Or Kirby or Pilotwings? Perhaps I missed those announcements.
All we've really got is The New Super Mario Bros. U. But that's not enough. Where are Nintendo's biggest franchises? So far they're either still to come yet to be announced. I need these games on store shelves before I buy the system.
Where's a new original Zelda? All we've got is a Wind Waker remake to look forward to. No thanks! I played and beat that game a decade ago. I know most Zelda games are just rehashes at this point but that's taking the rehash thing too far even for me. Where's Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart and Donkey Kong? They're coming. Well, when they get here may be I'll think about it. But they're not here yet so I won't. Where's the new Super Mario game in the vein of 64/Sunshine/Galaxy? Or Kirby or Pilotwings? Perhaps I missed those announcements.
All we've really got is The New Super Mario Bros. U. But that's not enough. Where are Nintendo's biggest franchises? So far they're either still to come yet to be announced. I need these games on store shelves before I buy the system.
it isn't fair to use the argument of paid PS+ adding to the lifetime cost of the PS4. pay to play online isn't mandatory, you can choose to play offline or online.
In the case of the WiiU thats a choice we often don't even get.
If "being required to buy a non-Nintendo console due to to Nintendo's near-total failure to host any games that aren't made by Nintendo" isn't incompetence, then I don't know what is.
Then Nintendo is stupid.
Nintendo pretty much owned the entire videogame industry. They allowed Sony to take it away from them with the PSX by subsidizing a CD ROM drive. That was one of the biggest failures in videogames.
Nintendo was very fortunate in their attempt to climb out of obsolescence with the GameCube, because their console literally delivered twice as much bang for their buck as either one of their competitors. But through a series of blunders, not the least of which was a rejection of the idea of subsidies, GameCube became a last-place laughingstock, and the poster child for failure (although it was a "safe" failure, because Nintendo didn't risk anything more than their public image and reputation, which was already beaten and battered).
The Wii was a total abandonment of any attempt at level competition, and yay! They won! The appeal of motion controls combined with the epic fail of the PS3 was undeniable.
And now... Nintendo has lost the entire videogame industry for a second time, apparently because they rejected the idea of powerful, subsidized hardware to appeal to the third parties (heck, they don't even seem to know what to do with this "last gen" stuff), but this time they don't have a Wiimote or a massive failure in their competition to take advantage of (well, there's Xbone's fail, but everyone seems confident that PS4 will just eat that up and become even stronger for it).
Carpe Libertatem
Member
The SD motion controlled Wii did. But probably not to answer your question.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Yet it's kind of ironic that one of the biggest criticisms of Nintendo not getting the western market is that, supposedly, real core gamers only want online games all the time, push that online multiplayer. Because that's what the western console market is built on: internet.
Which if true implies that if you're a western console gamer and you buy a PS4/Xbox One you're supposed to probably want to play online, so the subscription cost is mandatory. A big criticism people had with Xbox 360 this entire generation, since PS3 also had those western-focused online games but playing was free.
He is talking about launch costs, not unit costs. Just saying we don't know what BOM + packaging + shipping is for Sony.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
All consoles cost significantly more than the initial price point in the long run. I don't know where you're trying to go with this.
shinra-bansho
Member
This discussion about whether the Wii U is "overpriced" reminds me of when people would say the PS3 wasn't overpriced because it was sold at a loss, or the 360 needed you to buy online, or because the PS3 had Blu Ray.
None of this matters.
Something is overpriced when people will not buy it at the price you've set. The Wii U is overpriced.
But that's really just adding to the problem of not having a sound product underlying that price.
None of this matters.
Something is overpriced when people will not buy it at the price you've set. The Wii U is overpriced.
But that's really just adding to the problem of not having a sound product underlying that price.
There are only three systems that I can think of that people are referring to, the PS3, 3DS and NDS, when they say things like this. They all had very different circumstances surrounding them than the Wii U does. And the only one which I would call a remarkable turn around would be the NDS.
All in all, if things go the way of the Gamecube (Not a success but not a failure either) will that be a "win" for Nintendo? It's hard to go from the king to the jester and not feel bitter even with minor successes (X, Bayo 2 pending) down the road... Or even reversal of fortunes.
shinra-bansho
Member
Interesting. The less optimistic/lower bound estimate is even more worrying.
Considering the software revenues are likely closer to $130M.
NSMBU, which as far as I'm aware has an RRP of $60 and is probably selling close to that, and has sold at least 770K through April, would probably account for more like $40M.
That leaves only $90M for everything else, which would average out to around 42K per title at a $45 price.
But we know some titles are more successful, Lego as the best other seller at 150K, Zombi U, JD4, Scribblenauts, Sonic selling over 100K. Collectively these 5 titles would account for 550K+ units and around $25M at a $45 price. Which would mean that on average the remaining 42 titles would be batting an average of 34K, at a $45 price.
Up all the prices to $50 and you have a 38K overall average.
And just under 30K for the other 42 titles beyond those specified above.
EDIT:
Also, just taking NSMBU and Lego City as first party published titles, and momentarily ignoring that they also published other titles, collectively these games account for 920K+ units, and probably around $50M in revenue, leaving $80M. The average sales for all games outside of these then, and consequently all third party games comes to 39K.
Sounds right. The whole thing is extremely worrying. Seeing the figures and then reading Iwata's comments about how publishers will change their tune, there are titles yet to be announced, and so forth... what are we supposed to make of that?
Tragicomedy
Member
In other words, they're being honest.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Bowing to the unrealistic demands of uninformed, unrealistic, and hyper critical message board users = honesty. Not that anything Nintendo could do would satisfy certain people.
shinra-bansho
Member
The response from management is actually interesting to examine.Sounds right. The whole thing is extremely worrying. Seeing the figures and then reading Iwata's comments about how publishers will change their tune, there are titles yet to be announced, and so forth... what are we supposed to make of that?
From that slide you posted:
The only one, that I'm aware of, that Nintendo is assisting with publishing/promotion is Sonic Lost World. It seems a strange choice. Sonic has done (comparatively) well on the platform thus far. It doesn't seem a franchise at risk of vacating the platform. And more importantly it doesn't really do anything to help address any demographic/audience issues they're having with regard to software sales. There's probably a lot of overlap between people who have bought the system for NSMBU and Nintendo's properties, and people who will buy a Sonic platformer.
Do Nintendo management think sales of Sonic will convince Ubisoft to put The Division or The Crew on the platform?
If they want to compete for the 16-35 male demographic, why aren't they co-publishing or helping to promote Arkham or Splinter Cell?
Absolutely yes. They would've had all of the multiplatform titles and the edge would've been Nintendo software -- remember at the beginning of the 360 and PS3 era, they didn't really have any solid first party franchises. We waited forever for God of War III, Uncharted was more of a tech demo, and Gears of War hadn't gone anywhere, really.
I think it wouldn't have even been close. Nintendo would've grown with the generation and would be way out in front right now.
Mysterious has the right analysis on page 10 (?) I think.
/thread
After 21 pages, I think this is a bit too late.
Sounds right. The whole thing is extremely worrying. Seeing the figures and then reading Iwata's comments about how publishers will change their tune, there are titles yet to be announced, and so forth... what are we supposed to make of that?
A company desperately scrambling to placate investors. Nothing about Iwata's movements indicate to me that he let Nintendo's brand take a beating these past 8 months because he's got "a plan" that will be set in motion in the near future. I'll believe it when I see it.
Great article, by the way. Scathing.
11 and it's never too late to call out bullshit, of which Iwata is full of.
In the past when things have looked barren and Nintendo have asked us to wait, it's ended up that what looks like a duck and quacks like a duck is infact a duck.Sounds right. The whole thing is extremely worrying. Seeing the figures and then reading Iwata's comments about how publishers will change their tune, there are titles yet to be announced, and so forth... what are we supposed to make of that?
Nothing tangible would indicate, and in fact we have evidence supporting the opposite, that Nintendo have much of anything lined up to improve the system's momentum sufficiently to be called 'successful' from a gamer's perspective.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Far from the right choice. Wii's underpowered hardware was the reason for it's long-term decline and unability to keep it's numbers against PS3/360. Motion controllers were an excellent idea, but Nintendo's decision to not improve it's hardware power and rely solely on the controller was a bad idea. It works as a short-term strategy, but as a long-term, it was terrible and had negative impact for the company as a whole. They're struggling to adapt themselves to HD development and thus delaying WiiU's games, which is hurting it's sales. They're unable to bring a proper online network and Nintendo decided to not support online and bet on local multiplayer. This local multiplayer focus might look good for some, but it's not the tendency followed by the worldwide market now.
And ponting hardware power as the reason for GCN's failure is an inaccurate vision of what actually happened. GCN had an image problem, it was viewed as kiddy, their flagship games had aesthetics which gave such impression (Wind Waker, Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion and Double Dash). Media storage size restrictions was another problem. 1.8GB mini-Disc against dual-layer DVDs from competition. I know Iwata's fanboys and defenders of his direction uses the GameCube failure as argument to defend Nintendo to keep it's underpowered hardware approach because they believe Nintendo can't compete in graphics against Sony and Microsoft, but this is bullshit, actually, persisting in this underpowered hardware for unique gameplay experiences is what'll make them to become uncompetitive more and more.
WiiU is not a good evidence to strenght this idea, either. It's relying on the gamepad to bring "unique experiences" on an inferior hardware in comparison to the competition. Even Nintendo is not sure about what they need to do to sell the thing and convince the world that the gamepad can provide superior gaming experiences. Wii could offer that, but the hardware limitation and the restricted-to-motion-controllers control didn't allowed third-parties to fully support Wii. Well, they could, but they didn't.
If Nintendo's management can react to what's going on to the market, they'll realize their "low-tech hardware for unique gameplay experience" is risky, can't convince everyone to support them and if it fails, like it's happening with WiiU, can seriously endanger them.
Very well said. The Wii was largely luck (Iwata has admitted as much) bought about by desperation coupled with some insane idea that competing on features (By that I mean tech specs, online, social aspects, OS, indy support etc) was a fool's errand. I think the last couple of years of Wii and first year of Wii U has proven they are the fools. Magic in a bottle is extremely hard to find.
They blitzed the competition with Wii due to it being something new at just the right time for the market. A market of fans who put up with the shitty stuff (online, OS etc) because they love Nintendo's franchises and casuals who didn't give a shit so long as they had a few games they loved (Wii Sports, Fit, Just Dance etc). The GamePad is showing that it's not that, and investing in something so expensive and seemingly integral to the system without even knowing how they were going to use it or market it was foolhardy.
Nintendo has this idea that their franchises, coupled with a unique controller are all that's required for a system to work. They will sacrifice anything to get that and get the price of the unit down and turn a profit. Unfortunately the market has moved on and people want more than that. People want a good infrastructure (MiiVerse is OK but it could be so much more). People want a great selection of indy games (indy has skyrocketted this gen but the eShop is basically dead). People want connected experiences, dare I say it, much more than local multiplayer. And a large portion of gamers want some decent specs to realise more grander ideas than they have been playing the last 8 years.
They really just need to realise they don't have all the answers. They need to realise that it's not going to be the end of them if they get within the ballpark spec wise. They need to realise that people want a bunch of stuff they currently don't offer and they need to realise that there is a huge market of hardcore gamers who want top notch stuff and will pay for it.
If Nintendo can pull their heads out of their arses long enough to realise this, and then invest and change how they do some things, they could do so well. They have some of the most brilliant and powerful franchises around. With third parties struggling to stay afloat, the more units the better for them to get their games on. Therefore make a machine that gets those guys excited. After a long generation, gamers were hankering for awesomeness of tech - Nintendo could have delivered something close to that.
Nintendo could be so, so much more than they are.
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