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[coopolon]

If you decide to stop playing because you don't like it, I see nothing wrong with that. Now, if you stop because you're unable to walk over to a red X and press O to fish...

So it's only acceptable for people to stop playing game for reasons pre-approved by you? And a poorly designed quest (and from what I understand a factually incorrect tutorial) is not on that list?

 

[Shanlei91]

All I've learned from this thread is that if I do play the game and decide to stop, I sure as shit won't say anything on GAF about it. This particular defense force is kind of creepy.

I once made a comment on here about not being able to play GTA 4 for more than the first 3 hours.

Worst mistake I've ever made on the internet.

 

[Vinci]

I once made a comment on here about not being able to play GTA 4 for more than the first 3 hours.

wtf?? How -

Worst mistake I've ever made on the internet.

Oh. You've been served already. Okay.

 

[WanderingWind]

So it's only acceptable for people to stop playing game for reasons pre-approved by you? And a poorly designed quest (and from what I understand a factually incorrect tutorial) is not on that list?

It's not incorrect. It's marked by a giant red X. You have to want to miss it, frankly.

 

[KittyKittyBangBang]

You don't really understand. I'll explain.

You, as a consumer, can buy a game, dislike it and never play it again. You can tell a million people that you thought it sucked.

Now, you as a paid professional, do not have that right. You owe it to the creators of the game, a team that consists of dozens of hard-working people, to actually sit down, shut up, and earn your damn paycheck. Putting up little disingenuous videos (I don't believe that a gamer of any number of years couldn't figure out a mini-map) to get some laughs at the expense of a game is the work of hacks.

actually its in the best interest of Joystiq to gets hits, and entertain the audience, both of which Justin succeeded at. Why would Joystiq owe SE anything?

 

[thetrin]

So it's only acceptable for people to stop playing game for reasons pre-approved by you? And a poorly designed quest (and from what I understand a factually incorrect tutorial) is not on that list?

The quest is not poorly designed at all. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. If I can figure out how to finish the quest in 5 minutes on my own, ANYONE can.

 

[Cep]

You don't really understand. I'll explain.

You, as a consumer, can buy a game, dislike it and never play it again. You can tell a million people that you thought it sucked.

Now, you as a paid professional, do not have that right. You owe it to the creators of the game, a team that consists of dozens of hard-working people, to actually sit down, shut up, and earn your damn paycheck. Putting up little disingenuous videos (I don't believe that a gamer of any number of years couldn't figure out a mini-map) to get some laughs at the expense of a game is the work of hacks.

No, no, no, no!

The creators are owed NOTHING aside from your money, which they get when you buy the game.

NOTHING.

The only person he owes anything to is are his fans and his boss.

As a reviewer, he definately has the right to say 'fuck it' it do not want to play anymore. Sure he may lose the respect of his fans AND his job, but he still has that right.

 

[radios shipping overview]

I remember when Joystiq mentions were banned around here. Those were good times.

The more I read about Nier, the more I want to pick it up. And I'll make sure not to try to land fish that are way above my character's level.

 

[coopolon]

It's not incorrect. It's marked by a giant red X. You have to want to miss it, frankly.

But this is a mistake a lot of people are making. Numerous people have come into this thread saying they made the same mistake. Unless you are arguing that the people who read this thread are for some reason significantly different then most people playing the game, there's a good chance numerous people who we'll never hear from also made this same mistake. All around the internet people are having the same complaints. Clearly, there is something wrong with this quest.

No, no, no, no!

The creators are owed NOTHING aside from your money, which they get when you buy the game.

NOTHING.

The only person he owes anything to is are his fans and his boss.

As a reviewer, he definately has the right to say 'fuck it' it do not want to play anymore. Sure he may lose the respect of his fans AND his job, but he still has that right.

. Creators make the game, and if people want to play the game, they have to pay the creators. That is where the debt ends. The people who play the game can then go and say whatever the hell the want about it, and if they can convince someone to pay them for saying whatever the hell they want, good on them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You don't really understand. I'll explain.

You, as a consumer, can buy a game, dislike it and never play it again. You can tell a million people that you thought it sucked.

Now, you as a paid professional, do not have that right. You owe it to the creators of the game, a team that consists of dozens of hard-working people, to actually sit down, shut up, and earn your damn paycheck. Putting up little disingenuous videos (I don't believe that a gamer of any number of years couldn't figure out a mini-map) to get some laughs at the expense of a game is the work of hacks.

Your conception of what games journalists do and and are required to do is incredibly misguided.

 

[Cep]

Your conception of what games journalists do and and are required to do is incredibly misguided.

You are too kind.

I would say it is fucking stupid.

 

[Vinci]

But this is a mistake a lot of people are making. Numerous people have come into this thread saying they made the same mistake. Unless you are arguing that the people who read this thread are for some reason significantly different then most people playing the game, there's a good chance numerous people who we'll never hear from also made this same mistake. All around the internet people are having the same complaints. Clearly, there is something wrong with this quest.

I almost want to let the dude earlier buy me a copy just so I can see what the hell is up with that quest.

 

[thetrin]

But this is a mistake a lot of people are making. Numerous people have come into this thread saying they made the same mistake. Unless you are arguing that the people who read this thread are for some reason significantly different then most people playing the game, there's a good chance numerous people who we'll never hear from also made this same mistake. All around the internet people are having the same complaints. Clearly, there is something wrong with this quest.

Look, I honestly don't know what else the game could do expect physically pick you up, and drop you at the waypoint. It's on the damn map, and it's established hours before that the big red X is your waypoints marker.

Are we really so stupid as a community now that we can't even follow waypoint markers?

 

[Lard]

The only person he owes anything to is are his fans and his boss.

His boss probably doesn't want him making the site look like an unprofessional joke.

 

[Shanlei91]

wtf?? How -



Oh. You've been served already. Okay.

:-(

Spoiler

I recently bought if off of Steam, I will learn to love it!

 

[coopolon]

His boss probably doesn't want him making the site look like an unprofessional joke.

Probably not. Then again, not all of us think that is what he did. And the only person who can really decide that fact is his boss. Which I'm pretty is not any of us.

 

[SonOfABeep]

fire justin mcelroy

people take shit too seriously. This quickly became the japanese game defense thread. Do you think he honestly cares? They laid into bionic commando hd and dark void almost as bad, and velvet assassin, which is the only other game to have shared nier's judgement.

some of you are just seeing what you want to see here.

 

[Vinci]

:-(

Spoiler

I recently bought if off of Steam, I will learn to love it!

FWIW, I didn't think it was anything special either. Ambitious, yes, but... I didn't really enjoy playing it.

 

[Cep]

His boss probably doesn't want him making the site look like an unprofessional joke.

Well that is between him, his boss and people who give a shit about how 'professional' the site looks.

I would like some of y'all to stop pretending to be outraged by something you do not care about.

The issue here is that the dude insulted(perhaps unfairly) a game y'all liked.

Creators make the game, and if people want to play the game, they have to pay the creators. That is where the debt ends. The people who play the game can then go and say whatever the hell the want about it, and if they can convince someone to pay them for saying whatever the hell they want, good on them.

Exactly.

Though I will say that his protests are a bit misleading, it is pretty obvious that he just was not playing that part right.

Not that it matters, it was more of the last straw and less of a reason to not like the game

 

[Lard]

fire justin mcelroy

people take shit too seriously. This quickly became the japanese game defense thread. Do you think he honestly cares? They laid into bionic commando hd and dark void almost as bad, and velvet assassin, which is the only other game to have shared nier's judgement.

Yes, but they finished those, and that's the difference.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

You don't really understand. I'll explain.

You, as a consumer, can buy a game, dislike it and never play it again. You can tell a million people that you thought it sucked.

Now, you as a paid professional, do not have that right. You owe it to the creators of the game, a team that consists of dozens of hard-working people, to actually sit down, shut up, and earn your damn paycheck. Putting up little disingenuous videos (I don't believe that a gamer of any number of years couldn't figure out a mini-map) to get some laughs at the expense of a game is the work of hacks.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You are too kind.

I would say it is fucking stupid.

Joystiq doesn't "owe" S-E a damn thing, and I have no clue where anyone got that idea.
A lot of fans within the gaming community have a delusional fantasy of what gaming journalism is or should be.

 

[Vinci]

Yes, but they finished those, and that's the difference.

It's only different because there are people on this forum who like Nier. If he'd done something similar with Farmville or something, people would have cheered.

 

[WanderingWind]

No, no, no, no!

The creators are owed NOTHING aside from your money, which they get when you buy the game.

NOTHING.

The only person he owes anything to is are his fans and his boss.

As a reviewer, he definately has the right to say 'fuck it' it do not want to play anymore. Sure he may lose the respect of his fans AND his job, but he still has that right.

Sorry, but you're wrong. He does not have the right to receive pay for doing jack shit. If you're paid to review something, you review it. Just the same as if you're paid to provide any other service.

Joystiq doesn't "owe" S-E a damn thing, and I have no clue where anyone got that idea.
A lot of fans within the gaming community have a delusional fantasy of what gaming journalism is or should be.

Yeah, for one? They're not journalists. They're product reviewers. "We" expect them to actually review the product.

 

[Shanlei91]

FWIW, I didn't think it was anything special either. Ambitious, yes, but... I didn't really enjoy playing it.

Haha you fool! Clearly I feigned dislike for GTA 4 to out you.

Burn him!

 

[Angry Grimace]

Look, I honestly don't know what else the game could do expect physically pick you up, and drop you at the waypoint. It's on the damn map, and it's established hours before that the big red X is your waypoints marker.

Are we really so stupid as a community now that we can't even follow waypoint markers?

We're apparently too stupid to read an actual full review, so possibly.

 

[Cep]

Sorry, but you're wrong. He does not have the right to receive pay for doing jack shit. If you're paid to review something, you review it. Just the same as if you're paid to provide any other service.

Of course he does. If his place of employment has no issue with him doing jack shit, then I do not see the problem.

 

[Mandoric]

I am seeing less of a backlash against Japanese games and more of one against the much decreased volume of good Japanese games.

I mean, right now, western games are the metric by which Japanese games are currently being measured, and quite honestly, they do not hold up. I hardly think that this is a western bias thing. I mean, how many JRPGs of this gen can you honestly look at their metacritic score, and not see where the reviewers were coming from (even if the score is 'wrong')?

The problem with this logic is that it's a matter of freshness, where the reviewer thinks he can get a job, and occasionally console loyalty, not a matter of the actual gameplay systems.

We've heard tons in this thread about Nier's "incomprehensible" fishing (which apparently works exactly like the fishing in a major MMO, and in any case gives you a free pass after a few tries), but how many reviewers bailed on the RC plane missions in GTA? Someone's even suggested Monster Hunter fishing as far better, when Monster Hunter has a completely unexplained bait mechanic that will make you fail its first fishing mission.
Killing a single slime more than you naturally encounter on your path through a dungeon is grinding; hell, having slimes to kill in dungeons is called grinding half the time, and if they pop out of nowhere, that's archaic random encounters. Replace the dungeon with a generic Middle Eastern city, the slimes with Arabs, and sudden unpreventable ambushes by infinite numbers of them is now "best FPS ever" rather than "game design that was obsoleted by Chrono Trigger". Make doing it online to earn experience a feature, and the mechanical, repetitive slaughter of thousands for that next level-up is a new wind in the genre rather than broken, grindy game design.
Top-down shooters are universally considered too short and too difficult to bother with; take the same hail of bullets, the same need for a near-instinctual feel of where the next shot will be, and the same rotation of six or seven five-minute maps, put the camera in the player's helmet and complicate aiming, and you've got the top genre for the past half-decade.

In a lot of ways, it's less that Metacritic ranks some games low than other games high. I don't think it's actually a regional tastes thing; as much as Amirox likes to beat his "wacky jappy" drum and feel enlightened, don't kid yourselves, anyone writing about games now is a 20-35 console kiddy that grew up on almost the exact same titles that Famitsu's current reviewers did and considers them his baseline of normal.
I think it's a matter of chasing that fresh coat of paint; being naturally disposed to favor the studios that let you in on junkets, leak info in a language you speak, and might hire you someday; and the subtle leaning and ad buys that make a 7.8 a 9.0 and the same subtle leaning and ad buys that make a Famitsu 31 a 35 being the priorities of different publishers.

And that just deals with console output. The single biggest reason you're seeing fewer "good" Japanese games is that media outlets in the US barely even care to cover DS games and have completely abandoned the PSP, while they're consistently the most popular platforms in Japan. And this has less to do with gaming tastes and more to do with geography.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The issue here is that the dude insulted(perhaps unfairly) a game y'all liked.

It's only different because there are people on this forum who like Nier. If he'd done something similar with Farmville or something, people would have cheered.

I have no interest in Nier, can definitively say that I will never touch Nier, and would probably hate it anyway (because cavia's last action RPGs were the shitfests Drakengard 1 and 2).

Saying stupid shit is still saying stupid shit. Doesn't matter if you like the game or not. Even if you think it's a bad game, that really shouldn't give you license to say dumb or misleading things about it.

We're apparently too stupid to read an actual full review, so possibly.

have you never read any review thread ever

most gamers don't even read reviews, they just focus on the number (and if there isn't one then they don't care)

 

[WanderingWind]

Of course he does. If his place of employment has no issue with him doing jack shit, then I do not see the problem.

Yeah, that sounds about right. This mentality has permeated quite a few industries. Why should gaming be any different?

 

[Vamphuntr]

Sorry, but you're wrong. He does not have the right to receive pay for doing jack shit. If you're paid to review something, you review it. Just the same as if you're paid to provide any other service.

I don't think anybody cares anymore really. Basically his non review basically means the game is so much flawed that he decided to stop. I don't think his boss will care. At the end of the day he will say the game was so broken I didn't complete it. They even published his explanantion. Joystiq doesn't owe SE anything. SE is providing review copies so that their games will get coverage on the gaming media.

With or without his ''review'' the game fate won't change much. SE didn't even have confidence in it enough to submit it to reviewer in the west before it went on sale.

 

[Cep]

I have no interest in Nier, can definitively say that I will never touch Nier, and would probably hate it anyway (because cavia's last action RPGs were the shitfests Drakengard 1 and 2).

Saying stupid shit is still saying stupid shit. Doesn't matter if you like the game or not. Even if you think it's a bad game, that really shouldn't give you license to say dumb or misleading things about it.

Well he did update after he realized that he said something misleading, so he was obviously not attempting to mislead, but simply to voice his frustration.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sorry, but you're wrong. He does not have the right to receive pay for doing jack shit. If you're paid to review something, you review it. Just the same as if you're paid to provide any other service.



Yeah, for one? They're not journalists. They're product reviewers. "We" expect them to actually review the product.

I forgot you were the one paying him, right? You literally have no idea what his job description is or what exactly he's required to do, you're just making a random assumption.

Explain to me how McElroy has some "obligation" to review some game because YOU think he should? How do you even convince yourself that makes any sense at all? It's patently nonsensical.

He does what his boss tells him, not some random forum jackhole who has no idea what the guy's job actually entails :lol

 

[OMG Aero]

His boss probably doesn't want him making the site look like an unprofessional joke.

I'm pretty sure Chris Grant doesn't care and had a good laugh at the video.

Does anyone outraged by the video actually read the site? It seems like a lot of the people angry at this video either have it out for Joystiq or is there is a massive Nier defence force.
This reminds me a while ago of when Ryan was reviewing Dante's Inferno for Giant Bomb. He was stuck for ages on some gauntlet thing near the end of the game and couldn't finish his review until he did it and he even made a 40+ minute video of him trying to do it. In the end he managed to finish it and did his review, but I reckon if the video ended with him giving up and saying he was just going to not review then people here wouldn't bat an eyelid.

 

[WanderingWind]

I don't think anybody cares anymore really. Basically his non review basically means the game is so much flawed that he decided to stop. I don't think his boss will care. At the end of the day he will say the game was so broken I didn't complete it. They even published his explanantion. Joystiq doesn't owe SE anything. SE is providing review copies so that their games will get coverage on the gaming media.

With or without his ''review'' the game fate won't change much. SE didn't even have confidence in it enough to submit it to reviewer in the west before it went on sale.

You're the first person that actually makes any sense on the other side of this discussion. It's a shame that these types of "journalists" might hold sway over the product in question, though.

 

[Lard]

A lot of fans within the gaming community have a delusional fantasy of what gaming journalism is or should be.

Professional and competent?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Well he did update after he realized that he said something misleading, so he was obviously not attempting to mislead, but simply to voice his frustration.

He just says that there's another fishing spot, leaving out the part about how that spot was marked on his map.

 

[WanderingWind]

I forgot you were the one paying him, right? You literally have no idea what his job description is or what exactly he's required to do, you're just making a random assumption.

Explain to me how McElroy has some "obligation" to review some game because YOU think he should? How do you even convince yourself that makes any sense at all? It's patently nonsensical.

He does what his boss tells him, not some random forum jackhole who has no idea what the guy's job actually entails :lol

It's been explained. Several times. Simmer down, bud.

 

[Vinci]

Haha you fool! Clearly I feigned dislike for GTA 4 to out you.

Burn him!

Then, people cared. Now? Hell, I'd actually be considered reasonable to dislike the game.

quote=EmCeeGramr]I have no interest in Nier, can definitively say that I will never touch Nier, and would probably hate it anyway (because cavia's last action RPGs were the shitfests Drakengard 1 and 2).

Saying stupid shit is still saying stupid shit. Doesn't matter if you like the game or not. Even if you think it's a bad game, that really shouldn't give you license to say dumb or misleading things about it.

There wouldn't even be a thread made if this were done to a game that this board had zero interest in entirely. Some of us that frequent Joystiq might post a link to it 'for the funny' but it wouldn't be receiving the level of emotion it's reached in this case. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I thought GAF didn't give a shit about Joystiq.

 

[Cep]

He just says that there's another fishing spot, leaving out the part about how that spot was marked on his map.

Hey I am not trying to defend the guy (I just have issues with the arguments against him), but I still think it is a stretch to say he was purposely trying to mislead.

He just seems to fail at games.

Aside: One interesting thing I have noticed about this discussion is that it is operating on like 3/4 different levels and it sort of muddles things.

Professional and competent?

Exactly.

We are given proof again and again as to why they most certainly are not, but people still cling to the delusion that these guys have any integrity (I am obviously being hyperbolic, but finding 'Professional and competent' reviewers is extremely difficult.).

 

[Speevy]

Professional and competent?

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Curufinwe]

This reminds me a while ago of when Ryan was reviewing Dante's Inferno for Giant Bomb. He was stuck for ages on some gauntlet thing near the end of the game and couldn't finish his review until he did it and he even made a 40+ minute video of him trying to do it. In the end he managed to finish it and did his review, but I reckon if the video ended with him giving up and saying he was just going to not review then people here wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Ryan gave an honest effort towards beating what appears to be a very poorly designed and unnecessarily frustrating part of a game that he HAD to get past in order to finish the game.

It's not actually that similar to this situation with Joystiq and Nier.

 

[RiccochetJ]

He just says that there's another fishing spot, leaving out the part about how that spot was marked on his map.

Well based on the comments section on their site and here, I sure know that there's a spot marked on the map

 

[Shanlei91]

Then, people cared. Now? Hell, I'd actually be considered reasonable to dislike the game.

Haha very true. Maybe this fishing not-a-review video just came out too soon.

 

[Cep]

Ryan gave an honest effort towards beating what appears to be a very poorly designed and unnecessarily frustrating part of a game that he HAD to get past in order to finish the game.

It's not actually that similar to this situation with Joystiq and Nier.

Actually it is extremely similar.

The biggest difference is that Ryan cares enough to finish, and thus is more professional.

 

[Lard]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Yeah I know. The idea, is unfortunately, laughable.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's been explained. Several times. Simmer down, bud.

:lol

Hilarious. You post 10 pages of vitriol about a video intended to be funny, and then accuse people of taking it too seriously when they tell you you're overreacting? Come on, dude.

The fact that you took a video meant to be comical and overreacted to the point of demanding the dude's job (along with positing a lot of baseless assumptions on what his job IS) is insanely hypocritical and ludicrous. :lol

 

[Curufinwe]

No, it's not. The bit the Joystiq reviewer got stuck on was optional. Big difference.

 

[Vamphuntr]

You're the first person that actually makes any sense on the other side of this discussion. It's a shame that these types of "journalists" might hold sway over the product in question, though.

Pretty much. It's sad and it works both way. They can bash a game hard or praise it a lot for very wrong reasons.