That sounds reasonable.
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Limitations of VR - a virtual reality check
- Thread starter viveks86
- Start date
That sounds reasonable.
0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55
Banned
Disagree. Give me interstate 76 graphics, in VR... And I'm lost in the world. VR doesn't have to be some photorealistic pixel pushing realm. Keep it simple, let us get lost in the world, the story, the immersion. I'd love to inhabit polygon land.
Rewind gaming.
Rewind gaming.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Yeah a decent looking first gen for vr titles is doable imo. Another thing to consider is lighting seems to play a much bigger role towards increasing immersion in vr. A dk2 demo recreating a lobby area from the book ready player one had some decent baked lighting in it. I spent a good few minutes just staring at a patch of light coming through a doorway in the near distance. It really is uncanny how details like that can confuzzle your brain into thinking something is a lot more realistic even if base textures aren't that special.
I think the fact devs will have to go back to relying on creative ways of dealing with hardware limitations is one of the reasons I'm so excited for VR. I think the "power to do whatever they want" led to a laziness in the industry, and it's going to be a good thing to go back to the "old days", as it were.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
I'm hoping for narrative experimentation along the lines of point and click pc games from the 90s. VR is fertile ground for a similar level of storytelling trial and error.
With how this gen has been so far this needs to happen or it's just going to be remasters and mobile gaming for us.
thunder_snail
Member
Lots of things like physics, path-finding (an aspect of A.I) can be, and already are, decoupled from frame rate. There are some games that still tie physics to frame rate, (Dark Souls, Skyrim etc) because it's easier due to the nature of diff equations, but most modern engines shouldn't be doing that.
Think about it. How many modern PC games have AI that scales with the frame rate? Or physics that bug out with higher fps?
It's confusing me how some devs are complaining they have less ms to calculate those aspects, because they shouldn't be tied to fps these days.
Think about it. How many modern PC games have AI that scales with the frame rate? Or physics that bug out with higher fps?
It's confusing me how some devs are complaining they have less ms to calculate those aspects, because they shouldn't be tied to fps these days.
0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55
Banned
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
Useful resource for VR devs
https://developer.oculus.com/blog/squeezing-performance-out-of-your-unity-gear-vr-game/
https://developer.oculus.com/blog/squeezing-performance-out-of-your-unity-gear-vr-game/
Kreejlooc is the one needing a reality check.
Trying to bunch PS4 up with android mobiles in terms of ballpark VR performance is just really silly.
Enabling old HL2 for VR doesn't make anyone an authority. You're one of few devs working on VR on this forum. Walls and walls of text are being posted at a high rate but what does it amount to when Sony rolls out the likes of Gran Turismo 7 VR, No Man's Sky VR, Eve Valkyrie VR and/or similar leveled experiences next week? Not 'real' experiences? Mumbo jumbo.
Trying to bunch PS4 up with android mobiles in terms of ballpark VR performance is just really silly.
Enabling old HL2 for VR doesn't make anyone an authority. You're one of few devs working on VR on this forum. Walls and walls of text are being posted at a high rate but what does it amount to when Sony rolls out the likes of Gran Turismo 7 VR, No Man's Sky VR, Eve Valkyrie VR and/or similar leveled experiences next week? Not 'real' experiences? Mumbo jumbo.
0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55
Banned
^ouch
So, VR devs...
One of the games that's really caught my eye in the last 12 months is Firewatch.
In the opinion of devs on here, how much would you have to scale something like this down to run on Morpheus?
I'm not bothered by the answer as having experienced a really simple mech game on a DK2 I'll be happy with Amiga-level poly counts but high res, good lighting and really decent AA.
I'm also not worried about Krej's comments about power. As someone who grew up with really early 3D like Elite on the BBC micro, Starstrike 1&2 on the Spectrum, and Sentinel, Mercenary and Driller on the C64 power restrictions will force good gaming/experiential design to the fore.
One of the games that's really caught my eye in the last 12 months is Firewatch.
In the opinion of devs on here, how much would you have to scale something like this down to run on Morpheus?
I'm not bothered by the answer as having experienced a really simple mech game on a DK2 I'll be happy with Amiga-level poly counts but high res, good lighting and really decent AA.
I'm also not worried about Krej's comments about power. As someone who grew up with really early 3D like Elite on the BBC micro, Starstrike 1&2 on the Spectrum, and Sentinel, Mercenary and Driller on the C64 power restrictions will force good gaming/experiential design to the fore.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
I thought I'd share this, a vr dev called StressLevelZero has a twitch stream they have up most days of them working on their Vive/Oculus launch title "Hover Junkers". They just got their Vive devkit today and you can see them tinkering with it in their studio. Not terribly riveting stuff as it's music overlaid so no convos or anything (probably good for nda purposes) but it's still pretty cool watching them plug away.
Description of their game:
http://www.twitch.tv/stresslevelzero
Here's some early sceens of their game too:
Description of their game:
http://www.twitch.tv/stresslevelzero
Here's some early sceens of their game too:
qa_engineer
Member
The appeal of VR isn't high end graphics, its the immersion.
DXLelouch153
Banned
once we have the tech for SAO levels of VR everything will change
supernormal
Member
I feel like early VR will be a lot like early 3D. Initially a lot of fidelity was sacrificed in order to provided new gameplay mechanics and then with time it got to point were technology could handle a lot of fidelity along with the perks of a new way to play compared to what we had before. In the end wet just giving players more options.
I'm not sure what the bunches up part means, but maybe it's this quote where Krejlooc is comparing the performance hit on his work in Gear VR in contrast to how the PS4 will be a limited form of VR.
Could be wrong, but that's my best guess.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Cockpits, vehicles in general. Automatic cameras too. Virtual puppet theatre is going to be an amazing thing. This is going to be so awesome... >_<
inpHilltr8r
Member
That is bang on. It's totally like the transition from 2d to 3d.
arter_2
Member
Yes, this should be possible on the the ps4 the lighting will be static and baked. My major concern is the foliage and the draw calls that come with it. This might work because the style hides the lack of real shadows and I'm sure a large amount of matte painting.
This is where I think MM will shine when it comes to VR, along with the sculpting tool. I can see it already, where you are able to create your own characters and then they are automatically mapped and stringed like a marionette with the move controller. Then you'll be able to make your own movies essentially, create your own sets... the sky is the limit! At least that's what I think they'll do. Real wishful thinking, but I'm an optimistic in nature.
BackBackPunch
Member
Even experiencing some of the ugliest demos on DK2 has made regular non-vr gaming feel kind of lacking somehow. That feeling of being in another place entirely, regardless of visual fidelity, is pretty enthralling--and honestly kind of addictive. There have been several times where I have fired up a demo of a beach scene or something before I leave the office and just sit and look around and feel the stress instantly melt away. Its really that convincing. I compare it to a dream sequence at this point--not necessarily photo real simulation but a definite mental trip.
Bitch Pudding
Member
According to what I read here a game like No Man's Sky (VR-edition) should be impossible on PS4....
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
It's totally a stress reliever. I love some of the architectural demos. There's one in this modern style with large windows and blinds that lightly blow in the wind with rain coming down outside. So soothing.
Could be... but we've already seen Hello Games running the game on an Oculus Rift headset a while back, and we've seen pics of Project Morpheus in the studio. Also another thing that really helped to point the game towards a possible VR implementation is the fact that during PSX, the new trailers they revealed ran at 60fps, which as we know now, is a minimum requirement for Morpheus. So don't bet on it, but I certainly wouldn't count out the inclusion of VR.
He paints the PS4 as a platform where VR games won't be anything special, but hey, the best VR devs are not complaining, they will shine because their creativity will overweight the limitations imposed .
Case in point, showdown running on Morpheus:
http://www.roadtovr.com/epics-showd...-on-morpheus-after-ue4-optimizations-for-ps4/
I'm getting a Vive, but if anyone thinks Morpheus won't be the most succesfull VR platform and full of games and non-gaming software, they're wrong. It's been proven a lot of times that Presence isn't tied to graphical effects.
Also, that guy loves to argue and never admits being wrong, like when he started arguing about Kinect not being an "instant" device because it added 60ms to a non VR medical application. I wouldn't take to heart whatever he says.
. Case in point, showdown running on Morpheus:
http://www.roadtovr.com/epics-showd...-on-morpheus-after-ue4-optimizations-for-ps4/
I'm getting a Vive, but if anyone thinks Morpheus won't be the most succesfull VR platform and full of games and non-gaming software, they're wrong. It's been proven a lot of times that Presence isn't tied to graphical effects.
Also, that guy loves to argue and never admits being wrong, like when he started arguing about Kinect not being an "instant" device because it added 60ms to a non VR medical application. I wouldn't take to heart whatever he says.
foolishoptimist
Member
Driveclub was apparently demoed on Morpheus during it's development, and that game got released at 30fps.
Devs having these toys, and even testing them with their in development game is not unusual. There's a big difference between that and releasing a finished product that meets the performance requirements at all times.
Still waiting to see whether Project Cars actually gets Morpheus support with it's fluctuating framerate - or if they have a reduced 'Morpheus Mode' with half a dozen cars and strictly sunny weather.
Do you have a source for that? Cause I've never seen it confirmed anywhere... but now that I think about it, I do remember seeing Shu saying that DC was not really suitable for VR, most likely because it was at 30fps? Not sure if he tested it tho? Maybe he was just making the assumption that it would not workout with such a low frame rate?
With Project Cars, I don't see how they'll manage dozens of vehicles at once in VR, so they'd have to limit it.
Well NMS trailers up until PSX last year were all in 30fps... then suddenly out of nowhere, with no information the latest trailers were showing gameplay at 60fps. Not saying that was the deciding factor in why they would be VR ready, just saying it is another piece to the puzzle that currently paints a picture of VR.
I think its less than 12 hours away...
revolverjgw
Member
Even playing HL2 VR with its 2004 graphics on the DK1 blew my mind, I was there in the world and the textures and polys being much less than modern barely even registered (the screendoor on the other hand... that was a bother, but that's not going to be a big deal for long). I hope devs don't shy away from developing meaty games like that with lower budget/horsepower graphics.
Yes presence is real and a well known construct from research. As it is commonly applied to the latest VR revival though it's a buzzword. You can get presence from books, movies, screen based video games and VR. Just to different degrees of success,and heavily moderated by prior experiences / media schemata. The more you use VR, very likely the more attenuated the experience. But it's not some dichotomous thing like oh now I crossed over into presence.
It's fine, we're just getting started anyway.
Also, to be honest, sometimes technical limitations push creativity to better places ("art from adversity" and all that).
For example the separated rooms, in classic Silent Hill games, gave you a special sense of alienation and isolation, that newer Silent Hill didn't achieve, and could play around with incoherent geography much better.
But the reason for that design choice, was most likely just to load one room at a time, Resident Evil style.
Also, to be honest, sometimes technical limitations push creativity to better places ("art from adversity" and all that).
For example the separated rooms, in classic Silent Hill games, gave you a special sense of alienation and isolation, that newer Silent Hill didn't achieve, and could play around with incoherent geography much better.
But the reason for that design choice, was most likely just to load one room at a time, Resident Evil style.
If you've never tried VR before it's at least interesting to get a feeling of (near) total immersion. However, while I've only tried cardboard with a galaxy s5, the head tracking lags so much that it's very different from something like Oculus. Having used everything from 90s experimental arcade machines to advanced military simulators, I got accustomed to expecting a slight delay in the screen updating your position (or big delay with cardboard). I found myself quite impressed to see that the new VR headsets do this almost instanteously. To me that's the most revolutionary part, not the visuals or price per se. It's a much better experience.
Well, I'm in no position to object Krejlooc who actually does this for a living, but some parts I don't understand:
Can performance in Unity on Android be used as a benchmark and safely be extrapolated to PS4?
Why is only 1.5ms left for "All the AI pathfinding execution, all the hardware polling. Things like audio mixing, logic updates..."
Can't some of these be run in parallel? Or does the 1.5ms refer to the amount of empty slots of execution time running in parallel with other stuff? If it's the latter, very bad indeed.
If it's the former, well then you probably need to run in parallel. Even head position polling is done multiple times per frame time to start rendering from the correct perspective once the engine is fed with necessary initial data to kick start things, in the UE VR demo. The AI path finding could be completely decoupled from the main loop, even working on data from previous frame, and not all of them need to be done per frame. I don't know how audio mixing can't be done totally parallel on a core on the PS4, for example, with all the VR frame time "in the world".
Can performance in Unity on Android be used as a benchmark and safely be extrapolated to PS4?
Why is only 1.5ms left for "All the AI pathfinding execution, all the hardware polling. Things like audio mixing, logic updates..."
Can't some of these be run in parallel? Or does the 1.5ms refer to the amount of empty slots of execution time running in parallel with other stuff? If it's the latter, very bad indeed.
If it's the former, well then you probably need to run in parallel. Even head position polling is done multiple times per frame time to start rendering from the correct perspective once the engine is fed with necessary initial data to kick start things, in the UE VR demo. The AI path finding could be completely decoupled from the main loop, even working on data from previous frame, and not all of them need to be done per frame. I don't know how audio mixing can't be done totally parallel on a core on the PS4, for example, with all the VR frame time "in the world".
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
I've said before that VR will be this generation's equivalent of the Wii's waggle.
It will be a gimmick that will burn brightly and fade away within a generation.
Technical limitations will make games look worse that people are used to seeing.
Without the heavy reliance on graphics, game design and game mechanics will have to be really on point to sustain interest. There are very few developers in the industry that understand and can make compelling game experiences that don't really on the latest and greatest technology/rendering techniques.
Making the technical constraints tighter for designers will not improve matters as most of them are incapable of producing compelling game experiences with more resources at their disposal.
I expect 99% of VR 'games' to suck and I'm not interested in any of them in the slightest. The ones that do succeed are likely to be heavily cinematic, single playthrough, 'experiences' which I have no interest in either.
Welcome to the 'future'...
It will be a gimmick that will burn brightly and fade away within a generation.
Technical limitations will make games look worse that people are used to seeing.
Without the heavy reliance on graphics, game design and game mechanics will have to be really on point to sustain interest. There are very few developers in the industry that understand and can make compelling game experiences that don't really on the latest and greatest technology/rendering techniques.
Making the technical constraints tighter for designers will not improve matters as most of them are incapable of producing compelling game experiences with more resources at their disposal.
I expect 99% of VR 'games' to suck and I'm not interested in any of them in the slightest. The ones that do succeed are likely to be heavily cinematic, single playthrough, 'experiences' which I have no interest in either.
Welcome to the 'future'...
I think correlating processing power with the spatial extent of games in a hard way e.g.
"but it won't be anything like Mario 64. Anything with a true sense of freedom - a complex world to interact with more than a room at a time - these kind of experiences will not be possible."
...is very misleading indeed.
Mario 64 was dealing with a processing budget a fraction of what a PS4 or lower-end PC today would have available in the context of a 'VR frame'.
Pointing to VR demos to date as 'proof' of this point is also very misleading. Their spatial characteristics have been shaped around the spatial tracking limits of the setup rather than the processing power of the boxes
Appeals to authority ('he's making a vr game') to make a point here also are a bit dubious by the way.
"but it won't be anything like Mario 64. Anything with a true sense of freedom - a complex world to interact with more than a room at a time - these kind of experiences will not be possible."
...is very misleading indeed.
Mario 64 was dealing with a processing budget a fraction of what a PS4 or lower-end PC today would have available in the context of a 'VR frame'.
Pointing to VR demos to date as 'proof' of this point is also very misleading. Their spatial characteristics have been shaped around the spatial tracking limits of the setup rather than the processing power of the boxes
Appeals to authority ('he's making a vr game') to make a point here also are a bit dubious by the way.
Fallout-NL
Member
I've played Half-Life 2 on a DK1.
I'm not worried at all.
I'm not worried at all.
I'd argue there's a *very* specific and more powerful form of presence when talking about VR, and that equating it with any sort of 'in-the-moment' sort of feeling when reading a book or even playing a normal game just isn't fair whatsoever, being quite incomparable.
I also think that presence *can* be something that you cross over into. It may not be any specific line, but a lot of people who own and use their VR headsets regularly report that certain experiences can certainly trigger a change where they go from being super immersed to essentially being there. I mean, even something like the flicker fusion threshold, this is an important barrier that needs to be crossed before your brain accepts motion as real. I do think 'presence' will be an ever changing standard though, where if you get used to a certain level of VR, going backwards can result in breaking presence, while going forwards can introduce a new 'presence' that you hadn't known existed before, on and on basically until we get holodecks. But I think we are at a level where we can create convincing enough VR experiences that it really is worth describing it like being transported to someplace entirely new. It's something that could never in a million years be achieved through flatscreen gaming no matter how good the graphics get.
Mario 64 not possible in VR? That leaves a big questionmark, especially there are already games much more demanding running through emulators in VR. There really isn't a good reason why something like Mario 64 wouldn't be doable in VR.
Things also not possible:
- Flying to the moon
- People buying clothes and shoes on the internet
- the Internet itself
- comfy couch pc gaming
- virtual realtiy itself
Much more to come!
Things also not possible:
- Flying to the moon
- People buying clothes and shoes on the internet
- the Internet itself
- comfy couch pc gaming
- virtual realtiy itself
Much more to come!
Fusion Pizza
Member
Nah, it's gonna be great.
Or the entire industry is gonna shit the bed, simultaneously.
Or the entire industry is gonna shit the bed, simultaneously.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
No doubt there's overhead and additional processing required (along with the more strict latency requirements, etc), but I'm having a hard time understanding why the penalty for going VR would be that severe. The post in the OP is talking about going from 500K polygons and 400 draw calls per second in 2D, to just 20K polygons and 40 draw calls in VR. Like... what? That's 25x less polygons and 10x fewer draw calls. I'm no VR dev, but that sounds unreasonable to me.
To me, VR is like the 3D in TVs and other devices. It was sold as the pinnacle of technology but nobody really cared and that's still the case as of today for what I gather. VR has clear technical caveats and probably will for a little while.
We will need a few years for VR to reach a decent level and even then some technical problems will still exist.Keep in mind that mid-range and high-range TVs that include 3D, still have their fair share of problems with 3D crosstalk.
We will need a few years for VR to reach a decent level and even then some technical problems will still exist.Keep in mind that mid-range and high-range TVs that include 3D, still have their fair share of problems with 3D crosstalk.
The fact people thought there would actually be Skyrim like games for Morpheus or Vive were kidding themselves. Until the tech has grown and adapted we'll be eating very limited games that rely on the gimmick of virtual reality to sell. I'm actually more excited about augmented reality then virtual reality right now because of how much of an impact that has on real life. Almost like a "no strings attaches" kind of sentiment.
and if you are wrong on Monday, will you leave VR threads forever?
Got to love the run up to new hardware releasing. Everyone let's their dreams run wild.
After wii, Kinect and motion controls in general ( which were also hyped way beyond their actual functionality by dreaming gamers) I'm expecting it to be bad and praying it's good.
Getting the message out might be difficult in the UK as well. Demo stations are something you never see in shops not called GAME. I gather they are commonplace in the US but do mainland European retailers still use them?
After wii, Kinect and motion controls in general ( which were also hyped way beyond their actual functionality by dreaming gamers) I'm expecting it to be bad and praying it's good.
Getting the message out might be difficult in the UK as well. Demo stations are something you never see in shops not called GAME. I gather they are commonplace in the US but do mainland European retailers still use them?
Mushroomer25
Member
My position is that I think we are at minimum, five years out from decent consumer level VR. By consumer level, I mean something that
- Meets minimum consumer expectations of what a modern videogame looks like, and is capable of
- Is a comfortable experience to wear & use
- Can be bought for the highest end of a reasonable consumer electronics purchase
But we're forcing this stuff to market way too early. Morpheus & PS4 is not going to be enough to meet consumer expectations of VR. If I sell a headset promising "first person VR" on the machine that plays COD, No Man's Sky, and Fallout - people are going to expect the ability to play those games, with that hardware.
My worry is that Morpheus is going to emerge with a massive marketing campaign & public awareness, only to inevitably disappoint the mass market & re-sour them on VR. So in five years, when that acceptable version IS ready - it's going to be that much harder of a sell.
Maybe Sony can prove me wrong at E3. But from the sounds of this, it will take a miracle.
- Meets minimum consumer expectations of what a modern videogame looks like, and is capable of
- Is a comfortable experience to wear & use
- Can be bought for the highest end of a reasonable consumer electronics purchase
But we're forcing this stuff to market way too early. Morpheus & PS4 is not going to be enough to meet consumer expectations of VR. If I sell a headset promising "first person VR" on the machine that plays COD, No Man's Sky, and Fallout - people are going to expect the ability to play those games, with that hardware.
My worry is that Morpheus is going to emerge with a massive marketing campaign & public awareness, only to inevitably disappoint the mass market & re-sour them on VR. So in five years, when that acceptable version IS ready - it's going to be that much harder of a sell.
Maybe Sony can prove me wrong at E3. But from the sounds of this, it will take a miracle.