Sho_Nuff82
Member
Such a game already exists - Eve Valkyrie. I've played it with Oculus Rift at Pax East, it's the real deal.
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VRFocus: Big Morpheus push at Sony presser, half of their booth devoted to it
- Thread starter ashecitism
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Such a game already exists - Eve Valkyrie. I've played it with Oculus Rift at Pax East, it's the real deal.
I wouldn't mind one bit if half or more of their conference was dedicated to morpheus. It would be great to see sony actually support an add on they make for once instead of trying to hype it up and then forget it exists a few weeks after launch (eye toy/playstation eye/playstation move)
beyond that I am way more interested in getting a price on morpheus and seeing what it can do instead of seeing demos of games we already know how they will play such as uncharted or assassin's creed.
I mean, if this thing is done right not only will be it lots of fun to play with, but potentially have mass appeal. Imagine how your parents will react if you could basically let them play wii sports but in a full realistic looking bowling alley @_@
a debut flagship title would be something with mass appeal such as a wii sports like thing, or a virutal fireworks show.
beyond that I am way more interested in getting a price on morpheus and seeing what it can do instead of seeing demos of games we already know how they will play such as uncharted or assassin's creed.
I mean, if this thing is done right not only will be it lots of fun to play with, but potentially have mass appeal. Imagine how your parents will react if you could basically let them play wii sports but in a full realistic looking bowling alley @_@
a debut flagship title would be something with mass appeal such as a wii sports like thing, or a virutal fireworks show.
Crayon
Member
LookAtMeGo
Member
Good. Get more people to try it and people can stop worrying that this isn't the next big leap in advancing the hobby.
I appreciate the informative comments and views you provide here, especially with VR subjects, but your tendency to get condescending and aggressive really quickly can majorly detract from any good you're trying to do. You're not gonna get under my skin, but I'm sure this sort of hostile approach isn't gonna help get your point across with others. Just something to keep in mind man.
Anyways, however you define it, calling a racing game like GT an 'on rails' experience isn't gonna stick with people because there's a pretty commonly accepted definition for it already and GT doesn't fit.
Also, it's Nurburgring, not Nuremburg. Two different places(and where I was born!).
Lastly, internal or output resolution, it doesn't make too much difference. We know PC VR games are having to run at a much higher internal resolution for the barrel distortion and no doubt that games on Morpheus will have to as well. There will more than likely be a proportional difference in the amount necessary for the differing output resolutions, making the power requirement comparison more than apt still.
revolverjgw
Member
So we won't get anything PS3-like or just somewhat better in graphics for a VR PM game? At all? No one is going to make anything except limited experiences, on-rail, or stationary games?
I honestly don't know how you really believe this given your knowledge on the subject. There will be games that are not limited in scope even if they get a big hit in the graphics to attain a smooth experience.
hakuna matata.
I'm actually considering something similar if my motion sickness hits me during VR. It is not common for me during games, but it happened with the Bioshock series and W:TNO sadly.
Who's angry? I said I don't like a thing. It's a discussion forum, right? We can express an opinion here without expecting to change a damn thing? I know I can't change the weather and it's not worth getting mad about but sometimes when it rains I still say "aw shit."
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I really, REALLY don't get these "I don't want to wear that and look like an idiot" posts. Who the fuck cares how you look when playing a video game? Really! "My friends are gonna laugh at me and mock me for years". What the hell, are you in high school? Are all your friends sport jock dudebros, and you're afraid of looking like a nerd in front of them, or what? Man.
I'm excited as hell, and I'll gladly wear this thing all over my face.
I'm excited as hell, and I'll gladly wear this thing all over my face.
crazysapertonight
Member
I still don't fully understand how PS4 going to handle VR. I almost don't know any serious game on ps4 that runs with 1080p and stable 60fps
TetraGenesis
Member
Hahahahahaha, best one I've seen in a while.
If it really couldn't handle VR, would they really devote any time to it during E3 (not even counting the show floor distribution) or any other event? Would they waste time on R&D and announce a timeframe for release and do all this for something that wouldn't work? I mean, think about it.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
You lower the visual complexity, it runs at a higher framerate. Ta-daa.
No, VR games aren't gonna look like The Order. And they don't need to, because the immersion and sense of presence you get from good VR will make you not care that the visuals are a bit simpler.
It's called optimization. It's called making native VR games, not just porting over existing games.
Again, I go the example of the cooking Vive demo that Valve demonstrated. A demo that got rave reviews and claims of enormous presence.
I don't think anyone here can say that the PS4 can't handle a game like that.
In VR the experience will matter more than the graphics. And Sony has a lot of good designers who van take advantage of what VR has to offer.
I appreciate the informative comments and views you provide here, especially with VR subjects, but your tendency to get condescending and aggressive really quickly can majorly detract from any good you're trying to do. You're not gonna get under my skin, but I'm sure this sort of hostile approach isn't gonna help get your point across with others. Just something to keep in mind man.
Anyways, however you define it, calling a racing game like GT an 'on rails' experience isn't gonna stick with people because there's a pretty commonly accepted definition for it already and GT doesn't fit.
Also, it's Nurburgring, not Nuremburg. Two different places(and where I was born!).
Lastly, internal or output resolution, it doesn't make too much difference. We know PC VR games are having to run at a much higher internal resolution for the barrel distortion and no doubt that games on Morpheus will have to as well. There will more than likely be a proportional difference in the amount necessary for the differing output resolutions, making the power requirement comparison more than apt still.
I get condescending because people hand wave over real world technical limitations of these devices like these limits are nothing, when I can give hard numbers to back what I say. Let me give an actual, in the real world example of how limiting VR can be - the VR application we are making right now for gear VR - we are using a note 4 currently. In stress tests, outside of a VR application, we were able to push about 500k polygons in about 400 draw calls a second at an acceptable frame rate. Trying to stress test inside of VR, however? For one, we had to eliminate environmental shadowing and reflections entirely, because those post effects were too latent. All of our texture sizes needed to be extremely reduced - we wound up using 128 x 128 8-bit textures. We had to constantly micromanage unity's garbage collector just to get the thing to run without running out of memory.
In the end, how much did we have to work with? We had about 20k polygons a second and about 40 draw calls to work with.
Extrapolate that performance difference to other hardware, because it's applicable. Virtual reality isn't a simple task to achieve at all, it's not merely "dialing things down," it's not something trivial to pull off. Every demo sony has shown off has been extremely well designed to hide all the very real, very obvious short comings. This isn't simply the PS4, either, it affects all VR devices. A Vive headset on a titan X SLI setup isn't going to look like modern-gen gaming. I see people left and right saying "I'll be fine with PS4 games running at PS3 specs." What does that even mean? There are numerous things the PS3 did which will not be feasible in VR without a massive increase in power behind the hardware that the PS4 has. They point to things like the shark demo:
And you look at it and start asking "what exactly is going on in this scene"? There is nearly no lighting, there is maybe 10k polygons going on screen at once. The entire thing takes place in a blue foggy void. So people push the luge demo - a demo which is built in a world where they can very aggressively cull everything around you to make it run faster because it goes down linear paths. No real lighting, no advanced shader calls. It's all primitive stuff.
What's left, people ask. Well, stuff like Luckey's Tale? The Mario 64-esq platformer for the rift? I don't expect the PS4 to be able to pull it off, for all the reasons I put forth above. I don't doubt there will eventually be a PS4 VR platformer, probably from MM, but it won't be anything like Mario 64. Anything with a true sense of freedom - a complex world to interact with more than a room at a time - these kind of experiences will not be possible. And it's not just sour grapes.
I'll take it back even further - Half Life 2 VR? The game we work on? It stresses my PC like hell. Our lead modeler, Jazz, is constantly redesigning things like the gun models to remove additional polygons to get it running acceptably. This is a game from 11 years ago, and it can barely run in VR with a ton of reworking. VR is so hard to work with that people honestly would be surprised what little power you actually have left over once you begin designing your game.
But let's keep going. So with the limited amount of calls I'm making, just how much script execution time do I have? VR development feels almost like retro console development in that you must carefully manage your remaining execution time down to the milisecond in order to keep things running at an acceptable framerate. With everything I said I did to reduce complexity, I still only had about 1.5 ms of script execution time to work with. Thats 1.5 ms to do everything I could possibly need to do to actually run my game. All my AI pathfinding execution, all my hardware polling. Things like audio mixing, logic updates... everything in 1.5 ms of execution time.
Again, this is extremely limiting.
And before people jump in with "but but but optimization!" This is already AFTER batching had been done, to a ridiculous level. This was AFTER we were already using multithreaded rendering. This was AFTER we were already disabling android performance throttling. In other words, we were already optimizing.
Crayon
Member
I have a close friend that always got motion sickness with games (i showed him shadow warrio and ~30 fps on my tv and he put his hand over his eyes within 10 seconds of looking at it) and he uses ginger to good effect. I've never tried that but I get motion nauseous during some non gaming activities and dramamine works like a motherfucker!
Krejlooc, what is your opinion on Eve: Valkyrie? running on Morpheus and PS4?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z44mKwHav3w
there is other footage you can find where it is side by side, a TV screen and the player using Morpheus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z44mKwHav3w
there is other footage you can find where it is side by side, a TV screen and the player using Morpheus.
Also another point I want to make Krejlooc...
I find it somewhat amusing that you try to diminish the capabilities of VR on PS4 with regards to titles like the heist and the deep, where you are essentially stationary in a room. Now you shouldn't forget that Valve also showcased a game similar to what sony has demoed with PM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX1cum0vyWk
In the Gallery you look around and are able to move a few feet around the room (that is literally on rails as well), not much difference with what we've seen with PM. I mean the graphics are great, and I'm positive the vive is an incredible experience, top notch even, but because the game is so "limited" wouldn't that mean that this isn't just about the power VR needs to run games, but about actual game design in VR? Food for thought...
I already asked him and he basically says because it's in the void of space there is less on the screen and thus it is capable of running on the PS4.
I find it somewhat amusing that you try to diminish the capabilities of VR on PS4 with regards to titles like the heist and the deep, where you are essentially stationary in a room. Now you shouldn't forget that Valve also showcased a game similar to what sony has demoed with PM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX1cum0vyWk
In the Gallery you look around and are able to move a few feet around the room (that is literally on rails as well), not much difference with what we've seen with PM. I mean the graphics are great, and I'm positive the vive is an incredible experience, top notch even, but because the game is so "limited" wouldn't that mean that this isn't just about the power VR needs to run games, but about actual game design in VR? Food for thought...
I already asked him and he basically says because it's in the void of space there is less on the screen and thus it is capable of running on the PS4.
Again, games like these run in giant voids. They are in space. The environmental rendering is absolute minimum. They use extremely aggressive LOD on objects, which gets hidden by the low resolution of these headsets in the first place. Take a look at what is going on in any given scene - you have rocks floating in the distance, maybe a few ships, you have a detailed cockpit and... not much else.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Damn really? I take it this is on forthcoming consumer hmd resolutions? I know you said in another thread no dice on getting a Vive devkit, so curious how you emulate that sort of environment just outside of resolution. What's your dev station specs out of curiosity?
Octavianus
Banned
That would seriously blow my mind. I hope they do it.
Cloudhead games people actually post on NeoGAF, hopefully they will come and talk about the difficulty it takes to make a VR application. But, again, look at what you are watching - the entire thing takes place in a room that works on it's own. It's very meticulously put together. It's like a series of set pieces being designed one by one.
I'm talking about with a DK2. The PC I am using to run HL2 VR is an i7 4970k with a GTX 980 and 16 GB DDR3 1600 ram.
AstroNut325
Member
It would send make shockwaves and likely get much more press coverage for TLG and Morpheus.
FF Seraphim
Member
Just give me WipeOut Morpheus edition and I will be happy
Crayon
Member
It looks great and it looks fun. The graphics are simple, but it's just not very accurate to say "they are ps2 graphics" or "they look similar to ps3 graphics". It's probably more accurate, but less impact to say "these look like morpheus graphics". We haven't seen much in the way of morpheus graphics yet, but we know they have to be less complex than typical ps4 graphics, because they need to be cleaner and smoother than typical ps4 graphics.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Good lord. Could've sworn I tried out HLVR on a build close to the time I got my DK2 and it ran alright, then again I'm sure you've been through many an iteration since then. On a 970 so I probably was quite under 75 if you're struggling on a 980.
These arguments remind me of when people were saying Mario Galaxy was proof that the Wii could keep pace with the 360 and PS3 early on. People would point out that the actual world geometry was kept to a minimum by using small floating planetoids which were culled away from the screen (since you had no real control of the camera) and by loading times masked by shooting through the stars. Everything about the setting and environment was built to work in a specific way to get it running on the hardware in the first place.
Game development is a lot of give and take. I see Sony's demos as being very well designed to hide these limitations, but, being familiar with what you can do with a some crazy hardware raw, and then seeing what you can do once it's hamstrung by VR, there are obvious design limitations. Very obvious design limitations. While many will say the PS4 and Xbox One are "weak PCs" the truth is they can pretty much do anything a developer would want to do. Your design is not limited by either console. If you need to do more you do things to reduce drawtime and complexity and you wind up with enough to realistically do anything your heart desires. This isn't true when you're working with VR. VR is going to take us back to a time when hardware dictates what developers can and cannot do. And it'll be that way for a good while.
Game development is a lot of give and take. I see Sony's demos as being very well designed to hide these limitations, but, being familiar with what you can do with a some crazy hardware raw, and then seeing what you can do once it's hamstrung by VR, there are obvious design limitations. Very obvious design limitations. While many will say the PS4 and Xbox One are "weak PCs" the truth is they can pretty much do anything a developer would want to do. Your design is not limited by either console. If you need to do more you do things to reduce drawtime and complexity and you wind up with enough to realistically do anything your heart desires. This isn't true when you're working with VR. VR is going to take us back to a time when hardware dictates what developers can and cannot do. And it'll be that way for a good while.
crazygambit
Member
I'm pretty sure Sony announced that Morpheus games would also be able to output to the TV as well as the headset so people around you can see what you're playing if you want.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
its 2015, and short sighted dudes are still comparing 3d directly to vr like they've got the same level of novelty and application, proving conclusively that they don't know anything
like nobody should have to explain ^^^ how uninformed and reductive this crap really is, because people already have a hundred times in every vr thread, but here we are...
like nobody should have to explain ^^^ how uninformed and reductive this crap really is, because people already have a hundred times in every vr thread, but here we are...
Neuromancer
Member
If I'm reading this correctly you're saying Morpheus will be incapable of running anything from an open world game to a 10+ year old linear action game. If that's true that would be extremely deflating. I thought Sony was recently getting out there and trying to persuade devs to make more than just bite size tech demo style games. Also what about No Mans Sky? Based on what we've seen, and what you've said, that game will be impossible on Morpheus.
EmptySpace
Banned
the downplay is real.
let's wait until e3 and see what morpheus has to offer. with games that are actually built for the device. by talented devs like media molecule.
blue_phazon
Member
I can't wait to hear about impressions of it or showing off what games they'll use with it.
I just hope it's not prominent in the actual press conference cause it's sorta boring watching a scripted presentation that you can't experience.
It would be as boring as all the Kinect demos MS showed off at the end of the 360 lifecycle
I just hope it's not prominent in the actual press conference cause it's sorta boring watching a scripted presentation that you can't experience.
It would be as boring as all the Kinect demos MS showed off at the end of the 360 lifecycle
I'm interested in seeing some of the games they plan for Morpheus, though I don't want more than a quick reel of the games in development and maybe short talk on a few stand-out titles. Most of the coverage I want on these games are from people playing the thing at the show and not the talking points on stage.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
So do you think Oculus' 970 recommend for consumer hmd is more of a minimum? Seems like it going by your experience with hlvr :/
I assume he knows a bit about VR but I'm curious to see what Sony shows. I can do without the snippy attitude and acting like the Mayor of VR-land in VR topics but I like to read his explanations and, hey you can be talented and have bad manners! Either way we don't have much longer to wait. Exciting times.
KenPokesBarbie
Banned
So what about the open world game Ark: Survival Evolved? Are you saying the that it won't be able to work with Morpheus?
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2015/05/11/ride-dinosaurs-in-ark-survival-evolved-coming-soon-to-ps4/
They are encouraging devs to make things like their Heist demo. Like I said, I envision PS morpheus VR to mainly be these set piece designs where you remain largely stationary from a vantage point to get the most out of the hardware. I constantly want to use examples when I explain these things, but I can never be certain people will know what i'm talking about -- but the model I see them employing is something similar to the game Die Hard Arcade. Which isn't to say or imply this is going to look like Sega Saturn games, but rather they will be built with the same mindset - that game is a series of self-contained, small rooms that are positioned with transitions in between to make them look like they take place in one big building.
Or, to give another example - metroid prime. They break the world up into small rooms that load when you walk through doors. Something like that, which would mean that, similarly, an open scope like, say, Crysis wouldn't be possible. You need to compartmentalize your design when working with VR.
OR you could make things super linear and streaming, like they did with Sonic Generations. These levels are huge and sprawling, and contain more terrain than Crysis in its entirety, but it runs on a system that couldn't run crysis, because the game is linear and can intelligently load and unload things from memory as needed.
Now, that's not to say that the secret to making a game "work in VR" is just memory management. Blitting and memory copying have very expensive memory controller costs. Rather, I'm giving examples of how the hardware limitations dictates the gameplay design specifically to try and mask what you cannot do.
I don't see anything bad about this. If having to be smart about visual theming and design is the cost of creating full immersion, then so be it.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Also, it's Nurburgring, not Nuremburg. Two different places(and where I was born!).
.
Which one? Nurburg has no hospital. Adenau does. I know, because I was born there
. And grew up in a village right next to it (also on the map, a certain part of the track is named after it.
magnumpy
Member
google cardboard ("virtual reality in a simple, fun, and affordable way") costs ~$15.00
https://www.google.com/get/cardboard/
This is a weird question, lol. Are you really just asking if people are 'hating' because it's Sony and not Nintendo?
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