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Living in a world where a 7 is average
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
There are people on this forum promoting this change. This isn't even the protagonist.
Women on the right is much prettier
I dunno, maybe the fact that she doesn't have hair makes it worse
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah, we're all pressured to look good one way or another. I don't really know if women are more or less pressured or how the pressure differs, but to say it doesn't happen with men at all is terribly misinformed and ignores how society works.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not only is this supposed to be obvious and doesn't need explaining because a simple walk down a city block will tell you this, but this has already been what people have been saying for decades
Missing the point to an annoying degree. The point, mind you, is that men are allowed to have a way more diverse range of age and body types and they would be accepted, the same does not apply for women.
From many western games but the issue is still prevalent in the industry.
Yen and Triss were designed with men in mind, not both, especially Triss, the other three are good examples.
Again we've already been trying to do this, and get so many excuses that we have two bingo cards worth of them.
CannonFodder52
Member
Yea thats my mistake. Saw that image alongside other images of character's and their models. That is not Peebee's model though.
Gotdatmoney
Member
On the page you quoted that alone I said men face body image issues 3 times :/
Wellll, ok, but one person's "excuse" is another persons "explanation for my sincerely held belief," and listing 9 of them on a bingo card does not demonstrate that at least one of them isn't somewhat valid. It's really just a way of shutting down discussion while insisting that your side of the argument is right (and *everyone* thinks that he or she is on the right side of every argument). You could make a 3x3 bingo card of "excuses" for a belief in global warming.
I say that as someone largely sympathetic to the concerns sketched in this thread, and who thinks that most of the arguments on said bingo cards are garbage. I just don't like that method of argument, if you could call it that. I guess this is sort of an off-topic rant, but I've seen "bingo card" caricatures of various arguments elsewhere on the web, and they always struck me as a contemptuous and unproductive method of argument.
Glass Shark
Banned
Honestly I tend not to think of video game characters in terms of "attractive" or "unattractive" so I'm glad there are people who can call attention to issues like this. Good thread, OP.
I highly doubt it is. They look way too different.
I know bioware but surely they can't be THAT bad. The woman on the right is cute, the alien looks like a perv.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The thing is the arguments are those bingo cards only exist for the sole purpose of maintaining the status quo. Me and so many others are beyond tired of entertaining them as if they're valid excuses at this point.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Why not? Mario and GTA are among the most popular franchises ever. And even Wario games are moderately popular. Fighting games get ugly and/or weird-ass looking dudes like Zangief, Birdie, and Voldo, but the females are almost always youthful and attractive (not to mention ridiculously sexualized 90% of the time).
Glad you acknowledge that feminist critique has merit, at least.
Who the fuck is doing that? How would they even DO that? Your favourite waifus (lol @ "beloved" hot characters, seriously... e_e) exist, no one is going to take them away. No one can "take them away". The very notion doesn't make sense. Do you even listen to yourself?
And what, exactly, do you think this thread is doing, if not that? -__-
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah I'm aware. You also said this:
The first paragraph is not true, male beauty standards do define and dominate other aspects of our lives (pretty much) like they do for women. The second paragraph is confusing to me, what are we winning? It supposes that all men are in equal position of power when faced with this "issue" which is false.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You can't possibly believe this is true. This is completely opposite of reality.
CannonFodder52
Member
Yea you caught me on that image, I blame being distracted in class. Anyways I don't really like Bioware or the faces in this game, but the answer isn't to sexualise them. Although more of a complaint against the people pushing that image earlier than against you.
See, I think you're dead wrong there. That is not their purpose, and assuming it is risks derailing any possibility of changing someone's opinion. I think that very, very few people consciously make such arguments with an eye to preserving the status quo, as if they are loyal warriors in a battle to maintain a style of male-oriented gaming they enjoy.
Instead, what you get are people who really think that their arguments are valid, and who really don't think there's a problem. Or people like me, who think that there is a problem, but that not all formulations of it are fair or accurate. Those people can be reasoned with, and some percentage of them convinced, maybe, but if you start off by assuming that they're arguing in bad faith you are going to get nowhere.
Lionel Richie
Member
I quoted 5 links with articles about it being an issue for men. If it's the same or anything like that is hardly relevant since this isn't a competition, but my point is that body image anxiety is an issue for men just like it is for women. Again, if it's in the same intensity or whatever I don't care, but it is an issue that happens on comparable grounds. If you don't think that's true, please point me at some evidence of what you're saying.
What is down the block? For decades? Are you sure?
Not what i believe, but at least you stated the public opinion.
Please explain what you mean.
Oh i'm very sorry, i wanted to underline my message. Whatever i'm not trying to re-invent the wheel...
Making a character look aesthetically pleasing doesn't necessarily mean making them sexy.
I love Shanoa's design
Although I like Miriam's design too so...
Gotdatmoney
Member
Yes it is. Men do not have represntation issues like women have in gaming. You think that is false?
Body issues don't dominate facets of our lives to the extent that it leaks into shit for women. We have body issues. They matter to us. They matter to others. But it isn't intrinsically linked to thr vast vast number of issues it is for women.
Well this topic is about gaming. Are we losing the representation game in this medium? Do men not hold significantly more power as a whole in society than women? Or are you going to go "equal but different"?
Then why are you making it such when I said it 3 times that it was an issue? Is it or is it not about intensity because I admit its an issue then explain differences and you got all pissy.
You can't have it both ways man.
Oh interesting. So Mario/Wario are not particularly ugly i think, stylized/overdrawn.. never had a problem with. Nico Belic is ugly no doubt and i can't find a way to like the character, which breaks the immersion for me. Especially in RPGs where i play a character for a long time, appearance and personality is likewise important.
Yes it actually does!
But the OPs initial message was not clear to me, which got more clear in the later discussion.
Lionel Richie
Member
I'm not talking about representation issues because frankly I don't really care about it. You said that "and even in society as a whole male beauty standards still don't define and dominate other aspects of our lives like they do for women" and "men dominated society for the longest time. You think it's a coincidence we don't give a shit about our own bodies?", which is the parts that I answered that I don't agree and I don't think that's true.
Because the way you worded what you said (in the parts I quoted) kind of dismissed it being an issue. It's not about intensity or who has it worse, but you said something to the effects of "it happens to men, but it doesn't matter as much". Which I don't agree.
Making a character look aesthetically pleasing doesn't necessarily mean making them sexy.
I love Shanoa's design
Although I like Miriam's design too so...
I like Shanoa's design, but she probably wears high heels to be sexy, not to move comfortably in combat.
I feel it adds a touch of feminine class and grace to her design
Heels are most definitely not just for sex appeal.
Gotdatmoney
Member
This is true. Unless you genuinely believe male body standards are so ingrained into society the way they are for women I actually dunno how this is comtroversial. And the intensity of the issue is the point as well. What you are arguing is like me going "the general populace is not affected by poverty to the extent the aboriginal population is in Canada" and you going, "that's not true we do face poverty issues".
Yeah we do but there is a gulf of difference between how ingrained into life it is for one of those populations. Going I don't care we have it too is not helpful cause no one implied it doesn't exist.
There was a context to that statement. But even so I said was wrong to speak in absolutes.
I dunno, I say its an issue 3 times but I gotta hammer it more?
No I didn't, I said the implications of the problem manifest themselves more severely for one group. I said that body issues do not stranglehold the male population in facets of life to the same extent as women. I said we don't have body issues im gaming so buh buh what about us is self absorbed.
If you want me to say male body standards and their societal implications are identical to females that is not happening so we may as well stop here. If you just want me to acknowledge men care about this then sure not denying that.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yes, people think their arguments are valid, but again, so tired of hearing them, that we made a bingo card which should be interpreted as a giant sign saying "WE'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE" and that people should come up with new arguments and actually research what has been said to those arguments before. It's 2017 and we're on the internet, it's not that hard. For example, we've heard this mentoo™ bullshit before. It's literally always the first excuse. Because suddenly people forget what heroic idealism means.
Actual people, actual people are always on the block of a city, devs are artists, artists learn by people watching. These people understand how subsurface scattering in human skin works and have a dreadfully obsessive understanding of human anatomy to get where they are in the industry, they can do better when it comes to portraying women as something other than supermodels
Boy.....-__-.......I don't give a shit if you don't believe it, it's there, it's prevalent:
This kinda sexual dimorphism is super common in games, and the ones that do well are typically the exception rather than the rule. Like even tho we have Mei and Zarya, the majority of women in Overwatch have the same slender with large hips body type
They were literally written with the trope that they can magically alter their appearance to appear more attractive, a possible plotline for Triss in the Witcher 3 depending on TW2 choices is that she's on the run and trying to lay low, and she's dressed like this but with a simple hood on top:
curiouscharles
Member
I think it's worse for females portrayed in games, but your first example [ffxv] the guys are all unrealistically beautiful as well.
i think this applies to all game characters, but definitely to female characters moreso.
same shit with all media though, even the "ugly" actors look perfect from every angle [as a retired actor, trust me, that's WHY they're cast].
but i mean, good luck convincing anybody in the positions to change this to change any of it... :/
i think this applies to all game characters, but definitely to female characters moreso.
same shit with all media though, even the "ugly" actors look perfect from every angle [as a retired actor, trust me, that's WHY they're cast].
but i mean, good luck convincing anybody in the positions to change this to change any of it... :/
Lionel Richie
Member
There is a difference in the example about Canada because poverty is an objective metric, you have a concrete way of knowing who's poorer than who. Body image anxiety is not an issue that can be measured as objectively, you can tell me all day that it's worse for women, but do you have an objective measurement of that? And at that point, does "who have it worse" even matter? Since it's bad for both men and women, it's safe to say it's not a gender related issue, but a society issue. Which I believe we both agree.
See what I don't agree with is that there is a "gulf of difference" between both. I just don't agree and I believe that looking it from that angle is what isn't helpful to anyone. I linked evidence about it happening with men at a rate close to the one that happens with women. Do you have an evidence to the contrary, like to the point where it happens so much more with women that is irrelevant when it comes to men? If you do, I'll gladly accept I'm wrong.
At this point I feel like I need to make myself clear. I know this thread isn't about this exactly, but I think that classifying beauty standards as a gender issue is misguided. I grew up being fat and it sucked, it wouldn't have sucked much more if I was a woman. But once the misinformed notion that this issue mostly happens with women starts spreading it creates confusion, so a kid like me wouldn't about what I was going through. So yeah you did say it happens with men as well and hooray that's fine, but you also differentiate both instances by that so called "gulf of difference" when there's no difference. It sucks for everyone.
curiouscharles
Member
I agree with you, it does suck for both genders, and it does apply to both.
However, men aren't sociologically conditioned, like women are, to value their beauty above all else.
Our society definitely gives men unrealistic beauty standards to live up to, but society also provides us with alternative means of making up for them - mostly money, success, or having big muscles.
Whereas women haven't really been provided with said alternatives up until now.
I mean, we're getting there, but we're not there, so I do still believe it's worse for fat / ugly / average women than it is for fat / ugly / average men - despite sucking at some level for both.
This is one of the truest pics I've seen lmao
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
What's the argument for the this contention, and how is that more persuasive than the scientific research on the coherent adaptive logic of an evolved standard of attractiveness?
This is maybe slightly off-topic, but one thing I've noticed is that while female representation has nominally improved in gaming and other media, especially with respect to quote-unquote strong female characters, the actual roles they get to play has lagged behind.
For one thing, they don't often get to be the villain, at least not outside the "wicked witch" cliche in the occasional fantasy game. They typically aren't much represented in the grunts the player guns down. They don't typically get to be flawed in interesting ways, either - you get women geniuses and women soldiers, but how often do you get a woman who's a complex antihero? Or, as this thread points out, a woman who is highly competent but average-looking?
This article from several years ago in the New Statesman does of good job of identifying this issue (it's called "I hate strong female characters," but its not at all a call to make female characters all weak - worth reading, in my opinion, and somewhat applicable to gaming, although it focuses on film and TV).
For one thing, they don't often get to be the villain, at least not outside the "wicked witch" cliche in the occasional fantasy game. They typically aren't much represented in the grunts the player guns down. They don't typically get to be flawed in interesting ways, either - you get women geniuses and women soldiers, but how often do you get a woman who's a complex antihero? Or, as this thread points out, a woman who is highly competent but average-looking?
This article from several years ago in the New Statesman does of good job of identifying this issue (it's called "I hate strong female characters," but its not at all a call to make female characters all weak - worth reading, in my opinion, and somewhat applicable to gaming, although it focuses on film and TV).
Lionel Richie
Member
That alternative is also kind of true for women, but I do agree that it isn't as openly accepted by society as it is for men. It's possible and even probable that women have it worse when it comes to body anxiety issues, but I don't think there's a big enough difference that should make us think about it as gender issue. Depression caused by body image dissatisfaction is also very present with men to the point where it's something wrong with our society regardless of who we are.
The argument for contention is that we know from firsthand sources how video games came to be marketed as they are today- that after the crash, it was arbitrarily decided by companies like Nintendo to market game consoles as quality-tested playthings for boys. It didn't matter what actual demographics were; they made a PR decision and ran with it, which proceeded to downplay both market demographics and developers that were women over time as the medium entertained hyper and toxic masculinity. Now all of a sudden we have people wondering where all of the women came from as if we were never there.
The science of attraction has little to do with this either, mainly because no one in these (still kinda gross) arguments has yet to prove that two games of equal content with the exception of the looks of a female protagonist will trend towards selling better in the case of the game with the most attractive women. It is, at best, a correlation that easily breaks when you look at the most successful games over time or even in any given quarter or year, probably because games are more than a sum of their female protagonists. Indeed, I'm sure straight men are just itching to bone Mario, the Minecraft dude, Soap the jughead, and the Pokemon trainers
The science of attraction has little to do with this either, mainly because no one in these (still kinda gross) arguments has yet to prove that two games of equal content with the exception of the looks of a female protagonist will trend towards selling better in the case of the game with the most attractive women. It is, at best, a correlation that easily breaks when you look at the most successful games over time or even in any given quarter or year, probably because games are more than a sum of their female protagonists. Indeed, I'm sure straight men are just itching to bone Mario, the Minecraft dude, Soap the jughead, and the Pokemon trainers
please don't raise your hand if you want to bone the trainers; Christ.
Gotdatmoney
Member
When I say societal implications what do you think I mean? Because I'm not talking about how individuals feel or view themselves in the context of society. I'm not saying women feel worse about their bodies then men.
I'm talking about making money, moving up in a company. I'm talking about entire companies that exist solely to make money off female insecurity. I'm talking glass ceilings. I'm talking the concept of trophy wives, of women are a prize to be won based looks. I'm talking access to capital, loans. I'm talking work place sexual harassment.
This is off topic because we are suppose to be talking about looks in gaming but when I say the societal implications of looks for women are extreme I'm not just tahm bout self worth. I'm tahm bout an existance that is so tied to what you look like it's impossible to not put stock in it.
This is not meant to downplay men's issues (which it sure looks like which is why I did not want to go down this path), it's meant to say, when we do this shit it is extremely far reaching so we need to seriously evaluate if it's a big deal whether we tone down some tits and ass and flawless faces in gaming.
Edit: oh and gulf of difference was meant to refer to the poverty example specifically. May as well specify.
Lionel Richie
Member
That's very fair, at this point I think we need to agree to disagree. I understand how you view this and I respect your opinion. Personally, I don't think women are more or less tied to what they look like then men. We are as a whole a very shallow society, so I doubt anyone growing up will do so any less insecure about themselves. It's a sad side effect of our life in society.
I'm actually very ok with videogame characters showing some skin or being as a whole hotter than usual because I see it as escapism, as an absurd extrapolation of our inane expectations. I see it like violence in games, it works as a substitute to real violence and as such I don't think its presence molds one way or the other how we view this. More characters being ugly wouldn't IMO change anything about our society perception of "ugly" people. That's true both for women and men, with no difference to me.
But again, that's like my opinion man and I can see how anyone would disagree.
You might be interested in this then.
http://www.sirc.org/publik/mirror.html Its from the late 90's, but feel free to throw out any studies that have shown otherwise since then.
Its a summary of research findings on body image. Some highlights.
Orochinagis
Member
I became dissapointed on Aloy (Horizont Prot) who got two remarkable Scars in the game , and the devs just ignore them
NormalFish
Banned
I'm fairly sure I'm straight but I'd bottom for him so hard.Like I said before no one complained at all when Nathan Drake looked like this:
Lionel Richie
Member
That's a nice research, thank you. I was also reading this research and this presentation. I think I downplayed it being more common for women than for men, but that was not my intention at all. I still think that the difference in both cases is still not great enough to justify it being gender related, and body image issues are growing for men to the the point where today there's some studies that say that extreme dissatisfaction with one's body is roughly the same for women and men. Combine that with men being more prone to take steroids, it's worrisome regardless of who you are.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
NGL I really expected this thread to be about Jim Sterling's review of BOTW. Was an interesting read nonetheless.
P.S. Ana is totes a GMILF
This is rather egregious wow
P.S. Ana is totes a GMILF
There are people on this forum promoting this change. This isn't even the protagonist.
This is rather egregious wow
Drillary Clinton
Banned
*double post*
DeceptiveAlarm
Gold Member
Gaming is a fantasy, an escape. If I wanted to see a bunch on average to less than average people I would go bowling instead.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Genuinely who gives a shit? It's 2017, if devs are gonna push visuals and game design to be incredibly believable, then they need to do the same for portrayals of women.
Vlaphor
Member
I think that one of the biggest issues, and it's one I've mentioned before, is a lack of choice. Part of me fully believes in the mantra of, "If you don't like it, don't buy it.", but I also understand that this can be problematic if it cuts you out of a great deal of content. I will always say that giving the users options on how they want their content is the best choice, and the only thing that would come close to making as many people as happy as possible. This is one of the best things about mods, and one of the key reasons I like playing on PC. Now, as for ME:A, I wont be getting it at launch, since I'm playing through Zelda now and Persona 5 takes precedent over ME:A, but I will get ME:A after that and if there's a mod by then that turns the left character into the right character...
...I'll happily use that mod without hesitation. I personally like the look of the character on the right more than the left and that is who I would want in my game (and a quick glance at Dragon Age Inquisition Nexus tells me that I will probably get the mods I want). The people who don't want that have their character as well.
Also, as a small aside for modding potential and cosmetic changes, here's a couple of pics of a mod I used on Witcher 3
(there are other ones as well for Ciri and Yennefer, but I don't feel like filling this post full of images)
The word of the day here is choice. Something for everyone. Not everyone can always get everything they want, but through compromise and options, most people should still be able to be happy. I'm glad more and more games are coming to PC, but unhappy that modding seems to be getting less and less prevalent.
...I'll happily use that mod without hesitation. I personally like the look of the character on the right more than the left and that is who I would want in my game (and a quick glance at Dragon Age Inquisition Nexus tells me that I will probably get the mods I want). The people who don't want that have their character as well.
Also, as a small aside for modding potential and cosmetic changes, here's a couple of pics of a mod I used on Witcher 3
[
(there are other ones as well for Ciri and Yennefer, but I don't feel like filling this post full of images)
The word of the day here is choice. Something for everyone. Not everyone can always get everything they want, but through compromise and options, most people should still be able to be happy. I'm glad more and more games are coming to PC, but unhappy that modding seems to be getting less and less prevalent.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
There is no escape for some of us women, from the constant and pervasive problematic representations of our bodies in most mainstream visual medias...
BACK TO NOVELS, I S'PPOSE~
DeceptiveAlarm
Gold Member
...
BACK TO NOVELS, I S'PPOSE~
That's right I forgot the last 007 was a bald fat guy. Oh that's right he wasn't. Its not just women.
I like boobs as much as anyone else (?), but I gotta say I LOL'd.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That post is certainly the most gamers™ post i've seen in awhile.....yikes...a mod to remove facial wrinkling for women....what fucking planet do people live on?
...
BACK TO NOVELS, I S'PPOSE~
So you think by putting attractive women in video games it puts pressure on women to try and look better? Last time I checked most men weren't rocking six pack abs like most male protagonists.
I don't think the majority of men out there who expect real women to live up to fantasy standards, that's why it's called fantasy, a means to escape reality.
Also if video games and other media can put pressure on both men and women to be in better shape and take better care of themselves then all the better I say.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This whole thread is literally founded on the premise that the standards for video game character appearances for one gender are high to the point of absurdity, (see above for PERFECT examples) due to the constant whining from men over video game women not looking pretty enough while at the same time presenting conspiracy theories that heroically idealised portrayals, (i.e. not sexualized but still attractive to a degree), are purposefully made "ugly" for the sake of feminism. FOH with the implication that the constant objectification of women in media let alone video games doesn't change the perception of one's view on what the average person looks like. And considering how poorly men react to seeing women without ANY makeup whatsoever, hell to the yes men expect women to live up to fantasy standards.