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[Refreshment.01]

The controllers could attach magnetically from 4 different angles. Maybe even snap a keyboard in between them for even more versatility. The space around the analogue could be a haptic surface if you wanted less protrusion.

No need for something fancy like magnets. i was thinking in a simple male/male plastic bridge that remains always plugged to the master controller. You could go fancy and add a "button" functionality to the bridge, so it acts as an input when making pressure to the center of the controller from the sides when the controller is in the SNES dual handed style. This basically would add an extra button that is always available independent of an specific finger.

And this is what is kind of interesting about it. With the Wii you had games that worked with the Wii Remote in the pointing position and for VC stuff (or more traditional play experiences) there was a need to plug an extra peripheral like the Wii Pro controller. In this case, the manufacturer just needs to fabricate one controller model, the Wii/Nunchuck combo is replicated by using wands in each hand. And the Wii Pro functionality is emulated by taking 2 wands and plug each other by the bottom part.

So you get 2 thumb clickable track pads, 2 thumbsticks, 2 clickable mini trackpads for the middle and index fingers. A set of different IMU's for motion sensing. The strip on the handle in the picture is for grip sensor. Enough inputs for emulation of classic games (or more traditional ones) when the controller is held in the SNES mode.

 

[Refreshment.01]

This is an idea been thinking about for quite some time. But reading Nintendo's latest patent has brough up upon me how feasible it is now a days to apply in terms of engineering and manufacturing, since the company is known to use technology in cost effective ways. So i thought it would be timely to share it now that we have some precedent thus maybe making people a little more open about it.

For what i could gather from reading that patent, it has more to do with benefits for a mobile device such as costs saving, reduction of component sizes and weight, lower power consumption and reliabilty of attachable components. More than actually expanding on the functionality of the input device for gameplay purposes. The explanations in there also are centered around buttons mainly.

The idea i had previously involved the use of an image sensor or camera to track the displacement of an "analogue stick," but in a different way than what Nintendo explains in their patent. The reason or goal why the image sensor was consider in the first place is so the thumbstick can operate more faithfully like a button when depressing it, which would add a lot more input functionality and options.

DESCRIPTION:

• A low profile stick, that is close to the controller's surface, almost flushed.
• The stick moves in the X & Y axis paralel to the surface instead of tilting.
• The stick also moves in the Z axis normal to the surface.
• The stick can be depressed in the Z axis with a sensitivity degree and range of motion between a normal button and an analog trigger press.
• The image sensor is mounted below the stick itself. So instead of the usual stick mounted on a shaft that connects to a sensor box, the image sensor occupais the place of those mechanical parts.

ADVANTAGES:

• In terms of ergonomics. There's less stress put into the thumb when the motion is horizontal than tilting a stick where that finger is held more elevated thus causing the thumb to stretch.
• The input of depressing the stick becomes more functional, closely resembling the actual press of a button than the resistive click we have in sticks today.
• Repetitive consecutive motion inputs (Button mashing) are easier to accomplish than with traditional stick clicks.
• Since depressing the stick is more functional it would work similary to an action button, so more important actions can be mapped to it. This translates in the thumb moving a lot less between inputs. For example, when alternating between face buttons and stick operation.
• Since the motion is horizontal, registering presses is more consistent in any direction than a stick that tilts. Also in traditional sticks, the angle of the tilt affects how comfortably the stick can be depressed at any given time.
• Depressing the stick could also work as an analog trigger button.

Since the image sensor can track more fine displacement detail than other mechanical means, the game can be programmed to recognize how much motion is qualified as a "button press" in the Z axis. The other safe guard to avoid accidental inputs, is to have an slight mechanical resistance before the stick gives in.

APPLICATIONS:

• When using the stick for camera control, the analogue motion capability in the Z axis could be used to control the degree of Zoom. The farther the stick is depressed the closer the amount of zoom.
• In a Driving game. The thumb sticks could work for camera steering and camera control as usual but with the added functioanality of analog depressing. So the sticks could also control acceleration and braking.
• More precise simulation of hand grip. In conjunction with an analog trigger, using the thumb and index/middle finger to evoke the act of gripping with preassure sensitivity. For example, picture climbing in a game where the amount of force the user applies to the grip gesture with his thumb and index influences the consumption of the stamina bar. So the user will need finer motor skills to control the stamina consumption as optimal as possible.
• Main Context Sensitive button in games thus reducing thumb travel between inputs.

Since this post got quite lenghty, later i will explain another possible feature that could add functionality to thumbsticks and can also benefit the more traditional ones.

 

[RealityCheque]

After using the grips on the elite for several weeks, I dont think I could ever go back to using a controller without them.

Using them for the face buttons in Titanfall is brilliant, right thumb never leaves the stick and I can multitask jumps, ducks, reloads and looking much more smoothly. In other FPS games it's great to not use left stick click for sprints. I absolutely hate that convention and wish it would die.

I would imagine that the next gen of controllers will have grip buttons as standard.

 

[dose]

Force feedback in the analogue sticks.

Beat me to it. Definitely this, although I imagine it may drain the charge a lot more.

 

[Trilobit]

Nintendo had a moment of illumination when they splitted the controller in two, the other piece of the puzzle was coming up with a way to detect pressure in the handle surface. Kind of disappointing seeing them pursue other ventures with the WiiU controller and ignored the evolution path for the Wii Remote.

I felt that it was unfortunate all around that they went with the Gamepad route. With the Motion Plus already incorporated in Wii 2(the name it should have had)-controllers, many game ideas could have been fully realized that were hindered by the much less precise original Wiimote. That was what I was expecting, so I was somewhat shocked to see the tablet thing. Also seeing how Sony pretty much abandoned Move, Nintendo could have niched themselves again.

Not to mention how cool it would have been with your idea of pressure detection. :0

 

[tr00per]

This is an idea been thinking about for quite some time.

Very interesting. I remember seeing a patent for something along these lines but I didn't fully understand it until your well articulated post. Great thread. Shame I never came across it before but I'm gonna dig through it now.


I hope that since we are in the era of VR, companies will spend more R&D to develop new input methods. I love your grip idea and I think that would be totally natural for VR.

 

[L Thammy]

I want a controller with a flattened ridge on the side so I can use it to scratch my five o'clock shadow.

 

[Refreshment.01]

The other thing i wanted to talk about previously: A 2 Stage Thumbstick.

This idea goes along with either type of thumbstick be it one which is operated by titlting it or one that slides instead.

DESCRIPTION.

Imagine having, besides the depressable click, another similar click that happens at the edges or circunference of the range of the thumbstick. So we have a stick that moves naturally and at the end of the motion finds an slight resistence where the user applies extra force to trigger a click.

As a practical representation, let's picture a game similar to Resident Evil Remake. Tilting the left stick up changes the animation of the character between 3 stages: tip toing, walking and jogging depending of the amount of tilt apllied. In the case of a 2 staged thumbstick, If the user pushes the stick further up until it clicks it causes the playable character to sprint. Similary, making the thumbstick click in the South Position makes the character do a 180 degree turn.

Or in a game with "WASD" type movement. A North Click causes the playable character to sprint, a South Click does a 180 turn and either a West Click Or East Click causes it to dodge or evade in the corresponding direction. Along those lines for an action game, the character dashes towards the way of the Directional Click.

ADVANTAGES:

The benefit here is having an extra layer of control to an specific action. In terms of interface, certain actions could become more intuitive, the player abstracts or relates a Directional Click as a way to "Double Down" on certain actions.

• Another extra degree of control or fine tunning of in game actions.
• In the case of a tilting stick, generating a Directional Click at any given angle is more consisten than a Depressing Click.
• Related to the above due to the gained "consistency" of triggering the input, we can talk about "Context Directional Clicks" where the type of action produced can change depending of what cardinal position the click is generated. North, South, West, East Clicks for example.
• It complements the traditional Downward Depress Click.

APPLICATIONS:

Some examples applied to some common functions within a game.

• In a 1st Person View game. The Right Thumbstick would control the movement of the arm in X/Y space and the Directional Clicks of said Thumbstick would control the camera movement in a specific direction.
• In a 3rd Person Perspective game. The Right Thumbstick controls the paning of the camera which self centers when the stick returns to it's neutral postion. However, Directional Clicks causes the camera to pivot around the character, which is what normally happends in 3rd person games with panoramic cameras.
• Targeting in a 3rd Person Game. While using a Trigger or Shoulder button to lock the view to a target, the Right Thumbstick controls a reticule inside the locked object to pin point specific parts of the model, while the Directional Clicks allow the camera to be fully controlled around the player's character to survey the surroundings. An easy way to picture this is to imagine the VATS system of Fallout 3 but in real time and with full camera control with the same Thumbstick.
• Interface and Menu Navigation. In a Radial or Scrollable Menu, the Thumbstick is used to select between items while the Directional Click could be used to confirm the selection or switch between pages. Examples, highlighting letters from a Radial Menu and the Click in the same direction causes the letter to be input. In a Linear Menu like the Breath of the Wild one, left and right on the Thumbstick selects the item while a Clicking Right/Left/Up switches between Weapons, Items and Runes sub menues.

 

[Candescence]

The other thing i wanted to talk about previously: A 2 Stage Thumbstick.

This idea goes along with either type of thumbstick be it one which is operated by titlting it or one that slides instead.

DESCRIPTION.

Imagine having, besides the depressable click, another similar click that happens at the edges or circunference of the range of the thumbstick. So we have a stick that moves naturally and at the end of the motion finds an slight resistence where the user applies extra force to trigger a click.

*Stuff*

Holy shit, this actually sounds like a great idea.

 

[AppleSeason]

I don't care about competitive fps so I don't mind the time moving my finger away from the stick, but switchable d-pad and sticks is something I've been wanting for years, in a quality gamepad. The control method that is at the bottom is always uncomfortable, and that caused me last generation to get the d-pad intensive games on PS3 and all the ones that required the stick on 360. And this is pretty much the main reason I want to buy the HORI FPS pad for ps4

 

[Nostremitus]

Scroll wheel bumpers.

 

[Koren]

My controller should also be able to double as my memory card when bringing my profile to a friend's house.

I never understood why this capability of the remote hasn't been used more (well, probably because there wasn't enough memory, but that's still sad)

 

[CrazedProfessional]

Sega Saturn dpad industry standard.

 

[ASIS]

The other thing i wanted to talk about previously: A 2 Stage Thumbstick.

This idea goes along with either type of thumbstick be it one which is operated by titlting it or one that slides instead.

DESCRIPTION.

Imagine having, besides the depressable click, another similar click that happens at the edges or circunference of the range of the thumbstick. So we have a stick that moves naturally and at the end of the motion finds an slight resistence where the user applies extra force to trigger a click.

As a practical representation, let's picture a game similar to Resident Evil Remake. Tilting the left stick up changes the animation of the character between 3 stages: tip toing, walking and jogging depending of the amount of tilt apllied. In the case of a 2 staged thumbstick, If the user pushes the stick further up until it clicks it causes the playable character to sprint. Similary, making the thumbstick click in the South Position makes the character do a 180 degree turn.

Or in a game with "WASD" type movement. A North Click causes the playable character to sprint, a South Click does a 180 turn and either a West Click Or East Click causes it to dodge or evade in the corresponding direction. Along those lines for an action game, the character dashes towards the way of the Directional Click.

ADVANTAGES:

The benefit here is having an extra layer of control to an specific action. In terms of interface, certain actions could become more intuitive, the player abstracts or relates a Directional Click as a way to "Double Down" on certain actions.

• Another extra degree of control or fine tunning of in game actions.
• In the case of a tilting stick, generating a Directional Click at any given angle is more consisten than a Depressing Click.
• Related to the above due to the gained "consistency" of triggering the input, we can talk about "Context Directional Clicks" where the type of action produced can change depending of what cardinal position the click is generated. North, South, West, East Clicks for example.
• It complements the traditional Downward Depress Click.

APPLICATIONS:

Some examples applied to some common functions within a game.

• In a 1st Person View game. The Right Thumbstick would control the movement of the arm in X/Y space and the Directional Clicks of said Thumbstick would control the camera movement in a specific direction.
• In a 3rd Person Perspective game. The Right Thumbstick controls the paning of the camera which self centers when the stick returns to it's neutral postion. However, Directional Clicks causes the camera to pivot around the character, which is what normally happends in 3rd person games with panoramic cameras.
• Targeting in a 3rd Person Game. While using a Trigger or Shoulder button to lock the view to a target, the Right Thumbstick controls a reticule inside the locked object to pin point specific parts of the model, while the Directional Clicks allow the camera to be fully controlled around the player's character to survey the surroundings. An easy way to picture this is to imagine the VATS system of Fallout 3 but in real time and with full camera control with the same Thumbstick.
• Interface and Menu Navigation. In a Radial or Scrollable Menu, the Thumbstick is used to select between items while the Directional Click could be used to confirm the selection or switch between pages. Examples, highlighting letters from a Radial Menu and the Click in the same direction causes the letter to be input. In a Linear Menu like the Breath of the Wild one, left and right on the Thumbstick selects the item while a Clicking Right/Left/Up switches between Weapons, Items and Runes sub menues.

I said wow. This is a fantastic idea!

 

[Refreshment.01]

Was thinking about combining some of these old ideas into one concept, this won't be of the liking of the majority but there's some interesting features that might be worth to consider in a more refined way.

First, here's a list of stuff posted in Neogaf even from years ago:

LOCAL/SHORT RANGE FINGER TRACKING.
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=27232773

The supposed integrated camera on the screen could have a less obvious use. That camera could be used to track fingers positioning near the screen surface.

...Lets say the camera can detect the heat signature/IR of fingers just close to the screen even when not in direct contact. The developer could project a non intrusive graphical representation of the fingers in the TV screen, so the user instantly knows the finger relative position to the screen space withouth the need to take the eyes of the TV.

Think the heat/IR detecting camera makes sense because that could make operation independent of light conditions.

The idea above from years ago ending up in similar product and application: "The Leap Motion." which like wise does tracking at short range. i think is a product with more potential for gaming if installed locally in a controller.

TRACK PAD FOR INDEX/MIDDLE FINGERS.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176272095&postcount=136

...it could be interesting to postion a trackpad in traditional controllers with index finger use in mind. The idea here is to move the burden of actions such as camera manipulation, item selection or aiming to the index fingers. This way the thumb is liberated from having to constantly switch from face button to thumbstick manipulation...

Basically trying to better exploit the dexterity of the middle and index fingers with an input system that could register directional swipes, tabs, presses and finger combinations with multi touch. Instead of limiting those fingers to just one input mode.

Here's a very rough take on how fusing those ideas could look, pending refinements:

DESCRIPTION:

• It has 2 cameras inside.
• Top and frontal part of the controller shell has a trasnparent filter for the cameras to see.
• Camera tracks the 2 index and 2 middle fingers in close range or entire hands at farther range.
• Cameras can identify each finger and to what hand belongs.
• The checkered pattern at the top and front represent a piezoelectric material that detects the intensity and pressure applied to it.
• The checkered pattern on top could be a clickable trackpad instead?
• It has speaker(s) inside.
• The by now standard IMUs: Gyroscope, Accelerometers, Magnetometers, etc are used.
• 2 clickable Thumbsticks or Circlepads.
• GC controller shaped, representing a controller where the user wraps around their thumb, index and middle fingers. The front would have a wider and more even surface thought so users of varied hand sizes can confortably press and gesture with the Index and Middle fingers.

The 2 thumbs rest in the cliackable sticks. The cameras track the fingers identity, speed, distance through the transparent control cover or filter. The piezoelectric material (which can be transparent) measures the amount of preassure applied by the fingers.

The speakers are for local feedback like a Wii Remote, but there's a main difference for them to be used. The sounds coming from there could be used to replicate the actual sound of mechanical buttons. I.E.: Tapping the surface reproduces a button like "Clack!" sound effect. Swiping it, outputs a "winding clock" like rapid "Click, click, click..." effect.

ADVANTAGES.

• No button nomenclature. Since the control can ID each individual finger, actions are mapped to them specifically. I.E.: Right Middle Finger swiping = change weapons. Left Middle Finger swiping = change items.
• Since the inputs are related to cardinal positions and individual fingers the control becomes more intuitive.
• Ergonomics adapt better to a wider range of hand sizes since there are no buttons set in specific places of the controller.
• The control measures almost any type of data coming from the fingers: Position, distance, speed and force applied in an analog way.
• It tracks both multitouch gestures of Index, Middle and Thumb when the hand is physically in contact with the controller and entire hand gestures when it's away from the controller.
• Actual physical feedback. Since the user is actually holding and object and gesturing with his fingers ontop of a deformable surface. Intead of gesturing infront of a camera in mid air, altough this type of interactivity is supported.
• Since the tracking is at a local/short range, there are less line of sight problems or accesibility limitations (see Leap Motion resting in a desk)

APPLICATIONS:

• When grasping the controller the index and middle fingers of both hands are tracked. If the user raises one hand away from the controller the entire hand is tracked. In addition, the user could rest the controller in his lap and have both hands tracked by it.
• I.E.: In an Action Game scenario. User moves character with the Thumbstick. Reaching a closed door with a Numpad on it, the user lifts his right hand away from the Gamepad, this causes the cameras to track the hand and an UI Virtual hand appears on screen. The user does the proper real life actions to operate the Numpad and twist the door handle. This is further enhanced by the internal speakers emiting the proper sound effects.
• Gesturing in multiplayer games. Be it giving hands signals without using voice chat to coordinate strategies (think Rainbow Six) to just taunting. For tauting the user could even aproach the control near his face and have the avatar mimick his facial expression through face recognition software XD
  

Previous to alterations the GC controller sketc was borrowed from the net and it's credited to it's respectful owner.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I said wow. This is a fantastic idea!

i think there are some furhter improvements manufacturers could integrate into Thumbsticks with alternative technologies. Although a long read you could find the following paragraphs interesting.

As explained in a previous post, before the Wii U launched, was consedring some possible methods to enhance input in controllers. Among them, the possibility of using Near Proximity Sensors (NPS) or Image Sensors (IS) inside the controller pad so it could locally perform hand and finger tracking as well as gesture recognition, instead of a camera positioned farther from the user. In a similar fashion, these type of sensors could be employed to measure states of the elements inside the controller itself, instead of the user's hands or other body features.

Talking specifically about NPS, maybe it would be possible to use these sensors to track key presses inside a controller. A rudimentary way to implemet them would be, attaching a very small neodymiun magnet to the plastic body of a button and a magnetic sensor to the controller's frame, so the distance variation between the 2 could be measured by the alterations in the Electromagnetic Field. This way, very precise measurements of the buttom movement could be registered. The data captured in this manner is analog, so this has the characteristic of the button functioning as an analog input mechanism instead of just a digital one.

Also previously in the thread and of more interest, ways to add more functionality to a traditional Analog Thumbstick were considered. Among them, a way to come up with some sort of a "Z Stick", that is, a Thumbstick that can detect analogue values in the Z coordinates on top of the capability of X/Y axis detection we have in more conventional ones. Using Magnetic Near Proximity Sensors (MNPS) could be a possibility for this "Z Stick".

This 3DMS ICs are so small you can fit many in a finger tip.

In more concrete terms, a 3D Magnetic Sensor such as this one could be integrated to the bottom part of an horizontal displacing Thumbsick. The idea here is for this very small sensor to measure it's 3D movement in relation to an element that generates a magnetic field. The "Z Stick" would be able to measure displacement analogically when depressed, adding functionality closer to an analog button or trigger, beyond a simple "Click". In this sense, depressing the Thumbstick would become more of an "action input" instead of a "state input" since it would lend itself better for quick and repetitive presses. So far, the "Clicks" in today's Thumbsticks haven't been optimal for this type of input operation. So the goal to create this "Z Stick" is to close the gap in functionality between sticks and buttons.

The use of 3D MNPS could bring some advantages:

• Simplify the internals of a controller.
• Increase reliability due to needing less moving mechanical parts.
• Reduction of overall size of the device.
• Works independant of line of sight, and advanatge over an IS.

Another aspect to consider (although less plausible in the short term) is what the application of magnets and electro magnetic emitters could bring to game controllers in terms of Haptics. The attraction and repulsion forces of magnets can be used to give feedback of resistance to the user's fingers. For example, buttons that dynamically change resistance when an electromagnetic field is changed could be possible.

 

[Candescence]

Sheesh, this thread might as well be called "Refreshment.01's Amazing Controller Feature Ideas Emporium" at this point.

 

[SSReborn]

I always wanted a button on a controller that was made primarily for push to talk especially with the Xbox and PlayStation supporting cross-game chat.

The way I'd imagine it working is the button be positioned around the area where the paddles are on the XB1 Elite controller and you press it to switch into in game chat. It can be set as a toggle or hold. So anyone who presses that button you can hear them on your end regardless of whether your in party chat or in game chat. You can press it for important commands like pointing out an enemy position or what not. I figure it will allow for the best of both worlds in people being able to have general conversations with their friends in private without breaking up the line of communication in team or competitive based games.

I don't even know the amount of times where I'm playing a competitive game and I see people talking and I'm thinking to myself "this guy is saying all these things in game and he's probably upset that we're seemingly ignoring him since everyone is in the party chat"

...I don't know some idea I always had don't know how feasible it would actually be.

 

[Dreadnought]

The Xbox controller could use the over-sized buttons from DS4. Makes it a joy to quickly check the stats without moving your hand completely off the analog sticks with the dualshock.

 

[btrboyev]

The right stick could be replaced by a MacBook quality glass touch pad.

 

[dezzy8]

Having paddles as a standard feature.

It would be awesome if someone expanded on the VMU that Sega had with the Dreamcast. Be able to play minigames on the go to build exp or get new items in your fav game.

 

[Phoenixus]

I really wish the pointer in the Wii remote had become an industry standard.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

I really wish the pointer in the Wii remote had become an industry standard.

fuck no

 

[Refreshment.01]

In one of the NX threas there was some speculation about how to implement Free Form Displays to solve the issue of Button icons or labels not lining up when using the controller in different positions:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=216516394&postcount=7604

For some time thought it could be interesting to do a modern take on a classic controller with some of the ideas mentioned in this thread. i thought it could be a cute excersize:

Main Features:

• 2 Free Form Touch Displays that rest above a physical click. So there's feedback when depressed hard enough.
• 2 Force Feedback Pushable Scroll Wheels half emmbedded in the shoulder buttons.
• 2 Analog Circle Pads with adjustable range. Detailed description below.
• Motion Sensors: Accelerometers, Gyroscopes and Magnetometers.

At first glance there's something important missing for a Retro inspired controller such as this... the Dpad. A possible solution to mitigate the abscence is to include an Analog Stick that can change it's motion behavior depending on the game. An input that bridges the gap in feedback between an Analog and a Dpad.

This Analog Stick would have an sliding element inside that would limit the range of motion to a more shorter and 8 directional way. Basically displacements in a shorter range similar to a Dpad with a more octagonal behavior. This way it evokes a similar feel to using a Dpad to control character navigation in games. So it works both ways: Like a traditional Analog Thumbstick for controlling 3D games and in a mode that resembles closer to a Dpad in functionality by limiting the range of motion and directional behavior, for controlling 2D Platformers for example. The application or game would switch the stick mode on the fly.

2 circular displays with a physical element in the middle that make the interface more intuitive and closer to the user's thumbs, reducing the travel distance to operate different inputs. And with a dynamic UI that adjust in complexity depending of the game. Also it has the added benefit of providing a surface that can be swiped in multiple directions, for example like a selection wheel.

The other feature of note are the 2 Shoulder wheels. These scrollable inputs are ingraved in to the shoulders but at the same time at a higher elevation. This makes it quicker for the index finger to switch between both inputs as it reduces the distance between them. Basically forming a dense cluster of inputs: 2 shoulders, 2 wheel presses and a pair pf right/left rotations of the scroll wheels.

 

[TMWNN35]

I've always wanted a controller with motors in the sticks and triggers to give direct feedback like you get with a Force feedback steering wheel. As in the stick/trigger will apply an actual force on the stick in sync with whatever is happening in-game.

Basically rumble++

Hopefully one day.

 

[ZoyosJD]

In one of the NX threas there was some speculation about how to implement Free Form Displays to solve the issue of Button icons or labels not lining up when using the controller in different positions:

There are some good ideas here and there throughout your posts, but placing buttons (physical or haptic) that are expected to be pressed within short timeframes of one another at the edges of the range of a sticks movement is counterproductive.

While having a having a secondary click at the edge of a sticks movement is a fine idea, there needs to be a set of buttons placed closely together, yet away from the sticks (preferably close to the natural resting position of the other digits).

Otherwise you wind up with someone trying to push left on the stick while needing to press the rightmost button, leading to impractical or switching of gripping positions and untimely responses to prompts that are closely timed.

 

[tr1p1ex]

I would love to see gyro aiming on the PS4. It works wonders in Splatoon on the Wii U.

 

[Refreshment.01]

CLARIFICATION: In the SNES pad mock up above, the buttons surrounding the circle pad or physical A button are Virtual ones projected by the screen, not real ones piercing the Free Form Display.

There are some good ideas here and there throughout your posts, but placing buttons (physical or haptic) that are expected to be pressed within short timeframes of one another at the edges of the range of a sticks movement is counterproductive.

While having a having a secondary click at the edge of a sticks movement is a fine idea, there needs to be a set of buttons placed closely together, yet away from the sticks (preferably close to the natural resting position of the other digits).

Otherwise you wind up with someone trying to push left on the stick while needing to press the rightmost button, leading to impractical or switching of gripping positions and untimely responses to prompts that are closely timed.

Thanks for the comments zoyos.

There's certainly some disadvantages when using a "satelite" arrangement of a physical input (button or stick) surrounded by a trackpad or touchscreen. However, the specific example you offered wouldn't be a problem and it is already accounted for in the design. Interestingly enough it is a case a setup such as this could prove uselful.

• The inputs surrounding the stick can be arranged in cardinal directions, this is something easy to understand and remember by any type of user with varying degrees of expertize in videogames.
• There's plenty of flexibility gained. The buttons can vary in arrangement, quantity amd sizes. Have the circular screen divided in 2 big zones or have it's entirety work as 1 big button.
• Gestures. This allows the user to perform gesture as an input. Some in game actions are more intuitively mapped to a gesture than a simple button press. Imagining igniting the lighter in Metro by making a flicking gesture with your thumb.
• With a 1.6"-2" circular touch screen surrounding the physcial input, the amount of thumb travel from the surrounded element (stick or button) to the peripheral ones is significantly less than what we have in the standard 4 diamond array/thumbstick in the pads from the 3 main manufacturers.

In your example, moving the thumb from the far left of the displaced stick to the right most input, would be quicker.

There's indeed a disadvantage in relation to the 4 diamond setup in this case and that applies to inputs that are diametrically opposed, say for example going from Y to A, since there's a larger gap in relation to the diamond arrangement because we are accomodating an extra input in between.

However, most games feature actions mapped to buttons that are used more frequently than the others. So a designer won't assign frequently used actions or ones interdependently connected to opposed inputs in the proposed layout.

Another interesting thing to note is that the issue you are pointing here, was exactly what happened when manufactures standarized the analog stick on the right side. It made the control setup more complex and the thumb movement more intense and necesstate a wider range of operation. Yet people don't complain about this often because of conditioning.

Then there's also how the right Thumbstick has more or less become the main input in the right side of the controller, just like years before the left one took over it's respective part of the controller. So for years, it has become imperative to find a better way to minimize the time the right thumb is away from the main input.

Considere that this implementation isn't been done in a Vacuum. What functionality is been lost with this setup in relation to the Diamond shape could be compensated with the added capabilties for the index fingers with those ShoulderWheels. The index fingers full dexterity potential has been neglected by the 3 main manufactures for years, i 've already talked about this in other occasions on this thread. There's a set type of motions that the index can perform that isn't incorporated into controllers and game design in traditional pads, beyond just making downward/pull motions.

The "model 2" in the picture (the Circular Screen/Trackpad surrounding 1 physical button) would be an interesting thing to study in relation to the 4 diamond shape, even if it complements a more traditionally positioned stick instead of substituing it.

• It has more ready available input options. Counting the tabs, directional swipes and physcial clicks of the trackpad or touchscreen.
• It's easy to grasp: a main input (HomePlate) surrounded by complementary ones in cardinal directions.
• It can be comboed, depressing the center physical button with a click in either of the 4 directions.
• An important downside, is that to this day, the feedback this setup would provide doesn't compare to the one from more traditional buttons.

The model 2 is interesting to consider also, because it could potentially work as a single stick pad in today's gaming landscape, Giving that there are 2 scroll wheels and motion sensors, using these 2 input systems in conjunction could make up for the 2nd stick absence because it presents a solution to control a camera in the X/Y axis with acceptable degree of precision.

 

[Jubenhimer]

You know what needs to happen? Weight displacement. Technology that makes it so that when you tilt the controller in a racing game, the controller actually gives resistance by dispersing a certain amount of weight to certain areas of the controller.

 

[Refreshment.01]

You know what needs to happen? Weight displacement. Technology that makes it so that when you tilt the controller in a racing game, the controller actually gives resistance by dispersing a certain amount of weight to certain areas of the controller.

Weight Displacement as you call it is a type of feedback we have yet to see implemented in console and handhelds and it is specially important for VR applications, think that it is the most probable field for the technology to arise in a mass comercial way.

Here's an idea i posted a while ago about weight displacement for tactile feedback, it is both a hardware and software implementation:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=183626969

The are various reasons the idea was conceived in that way:

• 1. Limiting the device to move the mass in 1 dimension, simplifies the implementation as much as possible to the point of making it more or less plausible to see in reality.
• 2. Having 2 masses that far apart helps to amplify the feeback effect decreasing the amount of movement of the weights need for the user to feel the effect.
• 3. Number 2 helps with response times. Since the critical thing for this to work is how fast the actuators can react to changes in position of the gamepad.

Luckily one of the old Nintendo controller prototypes had the shape i had in mind, althought i doubt that was what Nintendo intended:

The idea is to give actual force feeback when the controller is tilted up or down in the opposite direction of the motion. The controller has a dimension increase in it's height in relation to a normal 2 handed controller. At both ends of it's height it features linear actuators to displace a mass. For example, when the controller is tilted upwards the actuators displace the bottom and top masses in the same direction to create an opposite downward force. A set back is, that the controller works best at a postion perpendicular to the gravitational pull.

The reason to use Tilt movement around the X axis and the corresponding mass shifting that reacts to it was chosen, is because:

• Is the more practical type of motion for such a controller and simplifies the design to some extent.
• Titling is a very easy motion to produce by the user in comparison to yaw, pitch or horizontal traslation, since requires little effort, just slight wrist movements, and does not demand mayor posture changes.

In this hypothetical controller, the masses linearly displaced in the Z axis provide the vertical force feedback for the entire controller. The horizontal feedback is taken care by motorized scroll wheels, yet this is applied locally to the index fingers instead of the entire gamepad.

As an example here's some use of Force Feedback Scroll Wheels or Shoulder Wheels mentioned in another post:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=207666795

Haptical scroll wheels for racing games, Contracting or Stretching gestures with both wheels. Think Stretch Panic game. Open sliding doors, Mario Galxy Star Spin with direction and speed taken into account for gameplay, Kirby or yoshi's Yarn games for yarning or unyarning...

With the hypothetical gamepad in a game scenario, camera movement in the X axis is done by rotating the scrollwheels Left/Right, while the movement in the Y axis is done by tilting the controller. Both motions create forces that oppose movement in the intended direction, thus creating physical sensations. Some benefits would be:

• The camera manipulation, aiming or pointing is controlled both with motion sensors and physical inputs. While it seems more complex to have an action that is controlled with just 1 thumb normally, there's also a potential pluses as explained below.
• The movement in the X axis controlled by a scroll wheel is more granular an precise, since the index finger in the shoulder position is more dextrous than a thumb for horizontal control.
• Movement in the Y axis is controlled by two hands, thus again, more precise than the thumb.
• It has the motion pointing assistance by controlling aiming in both axis at the same time with a gyroscope. Great for corrections as seen in many games already, Nintendo ones specially.

Simplification is the main motivator for this example. However, when we consider a Wand Like one handed controller like a Wii Remote, with more varying degrrees of possible motion, then the device to provide this type of feedback becomes more complex.

There would need to be at least mass displacement in 2 axis. i imagine 2 rotating actuators moving 2 different masses withing 2 concentrical circunferences, that rotate to generate opposite forces when the controller is tilted and pitched. Or a mass moving lieary in 2 axes (more complex) Although a mechanical gyroscope type of apparatus, like the ones present in stabilaztion systems would be more effective, but also bulkier and expensive.

In the end, how plausible this becomes is a matter of speed. How fast could the actuators react to the motion sensors reading and how capable would they be at moving the masses to the necessary positions.

 

[Refreshment.01]

One of the early ideas in the thread seems it could become an actual product with a very similar implementation: a Nunchuck Style Form Factor with a Grip Sensor.

Valve's Prototype from Valve Dev Days Conference. Anyone interested should check the thread.

The Valve Prototype reminded me of an idea proposed before the VR controllers for the upcoming HMDs were announced. Here's a link to that old post:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=131220137

Simulating finger movements. Had a very rough idea for some time. A wearable glove type device with a grip sensor object in the palms (a sphere maybe?), that will also help to simulate resistance. Some type of sensors in the finger tips and joints. The grip sensor is also capable of detecting proximity as well as what finger touches its surface. It's a very rough idea but maybe it worths something.

i thought it could be interesting to expand further on the above concept with another rudimentary mock up. To celebrate the release of competent VR in consoles, opted to use the PS VR HMD as base for the mock up:

FEATURES:

• The user just slides the controller in to the hands. This differs from Valve's prototype that needs a tighten strap due to the "Lateral" way the hand approaches and holds the controller. This is because the mock up has support both at the palm and the back of the hand.
• At the Palm of the hand there's a Multi Touch surface that also works as a main action button. It works like a big Analog Trigger Button detecting multiple levels of preasure.
• The Multi Touch Surface also detects finger swipes in multiple directions.
• An IR Image Sensor detects finger positioning relative to the multi touch surface and identifies each individual finger.
• There's also an actuator inside the multi touch surface.
• To the side there's either a Clickable TrackPad (In Valve's case) or a Thumbstick.
• The part of the controller for the back of the hand holds a Speaker and Battery.
• The Speaker is very close to the skin of the hand. It has a double function: Emit sounds and vibrate the user skin. This creates a stereo rumble like features in both the palm and back of the hand.

DESCRIPTION.
The reason to opt for a controller like this instead of a glove with variable force feedback, like the Dexmo pictured below, is because not only it allows finger tracking but because it allows abstraction of complex actions with simple motions. In this sense the proposed mock up works like a nice middle ground between a Force Feedback Glove (cluncky still) and gesturing in mid air using an IR based camera like the Kinect.

The Multi Touch Surface has an small resistance before registering a grip input so it can work as an action button for the quick succesive actions we have in gaming. It also has variable analog states to simulate force detection. In conjunction with the IR Image Sensor it can detect which finger or fingers is touching or applying force to the surface. Thumb states are detected by the circular depressable trackpad at the side/top.

At first glance it might seem redundant to have the Grip Surface work as a trackpad when there's already a circular one for the thumb. But besides making the finger tracking with the IR Sensors more precise, there's also potential for more types of interaction. The other hand of the user can interact with this surface. As an example, imagine grasping a Virtual Deck of cards with the right hand and using the left hand index finger to quickly swipe the cards. Not only the tracking is more precise due to the touch surface but it also provides extra feedback to the action, because the user is not gesturing in mid air with the index finger but over a surface offering resistance.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

For years and years I've wanted force feedback analog sticks

Make it happen!