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Merely talking about racism isn't harmful. Why do people think that it is?
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Baron von Loathsome
Member
Face it, guys, Elvis isn't coming back.
evangelion13
Neo Member
Hmmm...do tell.
Netherscourge
Banned
Who exactly is your question being posed to?
--The people who cite racism in cases where cops shoot unarmed black men?
--Or the people who claim stuff like BLM itself is some form of racism?
Or both groups of people?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Because most people don't like to get into a debate when they already know that they're wrong.
Darryl M R
Member
Certain people can acknowledge that racism still exists today but somehow they are never able to pinpoint examples of racism in action.
I wonder if I've got some other interpretation of racism. To me, attributing something to someone based solely on race is racism. And your example would be sexist, because it is attributing a way of thinking to someone based solely on sex. This isn't necessarily derogative, but (in my mind) it is the very definition of racism/sexism.
The Artisan
Member
i hope this doesn't come off as insensitive, but i remember when iron fist came out and my coworkers were talking about it, the only ones who didn't seem to mind about iron fist being "whitewashed" was a couple of coworkers who were white, i feel everybody else that i talked to agreed it would've been cool to see him as an Asian.
really literally will yell "la-la-la" and offer to buy you dinner to end the conversation.
race 'anything' upsets the status quo which is the white man* sitting on the chest of everyone else.
discussion, change, maturity, understanding, communication, anything that isn't the fear that is woven into every facet of our society.
(*if that makes you feel incensed just imagine how hard it would be to change the mind of someone even less inclined to imagine an issue)
race 'anything' upsets the status quo which is the white man* sitting on the chest of everyone else.
discussion, change, maturity, understanding, communication, anything that isn't the fear that is woven into every facet of our society.
(*if that makes you feel incensed just imagine how hard it would be to change the mind of someone even less inclined to imagine an issue)
Its not racist to point out how white people benefit from systems built and maintained by white people over generations to directly anf indirectly help white people maintain their power and privilege.
Also, useful wrongly paraphrased quote concerning white people's fear of losing their power and privilege: equality can feel like oppression when all you know is unearned privilege.
Also, white fragility.
Also, race is more complicated than the black/white dichotomy and people experience race differently in their own lives in micro and macro ways.
Also, useful wrongly paraphrased quote concerning white people's fear of losing their power and privilege: equality can feel like oppression when all you know is unearned privilege.
Also, white fragility.
Also, race is more complicated than the black/white dichotomy and people experience race differently in their own lives in micro and macro ways.
I think 'colorblindness' has really dampened conversations about race. Because white people are uncomfortable talking about racism they sought colorblind ideology which simplifies very complex systems and the experiences of minorities within them. That's one of the big reasons why many white millennials(not letting past gens off the hook here) are unable to see racism for what it is or ignore microaggressions because someone not hiring you because of your natural hair isn't the same as being sprayed with a firehose(to them), even though, both of those things can be linked to systematic oppression.
I'm reminded of that dumb Morgan Freeman clip, where he says "stop talking about racism and that'll end it", and white people take that as a gospel.
Racism is a complex subject, and we need to have in-depth conversations that don't simplify its effects.
And, an example of this showed up here already is when a minority gives an opinion and it's treated as we hate all white people. Then the conversation can get lost in the weeds because of white fragility. I have white friends who had to learn things, and they put forth the effort to do that, and if you are doing that, then you shouldn't get angry because someone said, white people, a few times.
I'm reminded of that dumb Morgan Freeman clip, where he says "stop talking about racism and that'll end it", and white people take that as a gospel.
Racism is a complex subject, and we need to have in-depth conversations that don't simplify its effects.
And, an example of this showed up here already is when a minority gives an opinion and it's treated as we hate all white people. Then the conversation can get lost in the weeds because of white fragility. I have white friends who had to learn things, and they put forth the effort to do that, and if you are doing that, then you shouldn't get angry because someone said, white people, a few times.
travisbickle
Member
Lord of Ostia
Member
People don't like to admit that they have privilege which they benefit from over people who don't have that priviledge. They also don't like having to reconsider their actions and have some introspection about things they've done in their life, the way they've treated people, etc.
I can say that, as a white person, I have both benefited from that privilege and done racist things in the past, when I was ignorant about matters of race. Even now I occasionally do or say something that is hurtful or ignorant, despite having a much greater understanding of race. Racism permeates every part of our societ, and people don't want to accept that.
I can say that, as a white person, I have both benefited from that privilege and done racist things in the past, when I was ignorant about matters of race. Even now I occasionally do or say something that is hurtful or ignorant, despite having a much greater understanding of race. Racism permeates every part of our societ, and people don't want to accept that.
When black and brown people are disproportionately killed by police officers, it's a larger issue than a case by case. So a killing of a 15 year old boy will absolutely warrant a discussion of race.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
People don't like to be wrong. It's a hard pill to swallow. They feel better if they believe their worldview is flawless and pristine.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Its the same people who are the first to flip out about how something like Dear White People is being racist without ever having seen it that hate when racism gets brought up.
Heh, yeah, just came up a lot. I'm not even sure what my gimmick may be. =) I'm against racism, I think it's widespread and deeply ingrained in American thinking, and I don't think any form of it is very helpful to try to fix the problem.
Here let makes that statement less racist the the dominant group doesn't want to talk about how race and racism is a part of every day American Life.
SilentRacoon
Member
Because they are either racists, or they are related to someone who is, that's why they get defensive about it, they want​ to keep going with their relationships​ without getting constantly reminded they associate with human scum.
evangelion13
Neo Member
Boohoo? White people need a safe place to be able to discuss the fact that black children are murdered in the street by cops? I imagine it on POC to make these safe places as well?
Nah brah. I'll continue to pick up a mirror and show white people what's going on, they can continue to ignore. It's the circle of life.
Bullshit equivocation like ignoring hundreds of years of history to say "UMM ISN'T THIS RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE AND THEREFORE EXACTLY THE SAME?
" also doesn't help fix the problem.EdibleKnife
Member
Reposting this from a whole other topic where I post what people are talking about when they talk about racism:
In the society the US created, white people DO have the privilege. They are in and define the status quo. And they DO benefit the most from denying racism, claiming racism doesn't exist or categorizing criticism as racism. Calling just that topic title racism ignores and erases hundreds, thousands of years of social, political, and financial influences that created the climate of racism we actually live with as minorities.
Of course. But we can't label everything as racially motivated regardless of facts, or we water down the argument.
Certainly white people have historically been the bad guy here, but I maintain my belief that conditioning people to think of white people as "bad guys" just because they're white is very much the wrong direction to take. It's racist, and it SHOULD be called out. It doesn't diminish the much more prevalent, much more harming racism towards minorities.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
I understand where you're coming from but I can't entirely agree, for several reasons:
Where do you draw the line if you're simply talking about applying an attribute to a race or sex? Do you really think it's just as much, if not more sexist to say that men are reluctant to discuss a particular topic than it is to say that men are dumber than women?
In both examples, men are described in a particular way. However the latter is more insulting and carries a truly insulting and negative connotation. The former not so much.
Would you also consider it racist or bigoted to say that more Hispanics are predisposed to diabetes than white people? That would simply be a matter of fact, but if we are to analyze the statement through your lens, then by virtue of simply describing a group of people I am behaving like a racist or bigot.
But now that brings me to my own question for everyone else:
Do you think stereotypes are inherently racist? If so, why?
Example: If I were to say that a lot of people from India eat curry because their dishes are mainly comprised of it, that would be a stereotype, but it would also be true, no? Would you also consider it racist? If so, how would you still state that message while not being racist.
I'm genuinely curious.
I'm gonna be "racist" as hell and call you out as the living embodiment of white privilege for making this post.
EdibleKnife
Member
The only one classifying white people as "bad" is you. There's a difference between being "bad" and simply playing into the status quo, a system and society created, reinforced and normalized over centuries. The entire reason we discuss race in the first place is for the sake of enlightenment. If minorities simply thought all white people were bad or beyond thinking critically about their place in society, there'd be no point in expending the effort need to create books, docs or try and spur discussions about race.
Right. Using White, as is common on neogaf, is not about race it's about the White majority and the power they have over minorities in this country. We are a people of privilege though most of us deny that.
Who is conditioning people to say white people as the bad guys? Seems like a bad idea considering white people are not going anywhere.
The Black KKK?
Seriously though, yeah this is not kindergarten. All of my years on gaf I don't think I ever saw a poster that identifies as a minority say "White people are all bad guys". We understand the larger points being made about systemic racism and the White majority.
Well I'm white, so I definitely benefit from white privilege. I think you're trying to say that because I'm white my views on racism are naive (and that is probably true). That I haven't experienced racism on the level that minorities do (also true).
But I mean... I'm white and can't help that. =)
I do my best to not be racist. I try to treat everyone equal and fair. I call out racism when I see it, I'm raising my kids to treat people equally, etc.
But when one kid gets hit and then hits the other back, I teach them that two wrongs don't make a right. Hitting doesn't solve hitting, and racism won't solve racism.
tl;dr: not saying racism towards white people is at all comparable to what minorities experience, but that it's not acceptable for the same reasons ANY racism isn't.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You'd think it wouldn't make people bristle so much since race relations in America right now and for the foreseeable future are firmly in favor of white people but I guess the fear of white genocide is real for some
Nealand Liquor
Member
Negatively labeling entire groups of people, even if being sarcastic, does nothing to open dialog. My take is posts like those quoted are more for the "lulz" than actual participation in dialog anyway.
I personally don't feel guilty about a thing. I was simply communicating and discussing a reason why when going into a thread and seeing those types of posts, white people would choose to stop reading and back out rather than participate. I was speaking on a theme in this thread about "why white people won't speak on racism.
Cool.
Disclaimer: This is about racism in america (before one of you foreign lads get into a tizzy)
Disclaimer x2: Yes I realize there are more than black and white in America.
For two reasons, people think racism is equal opportunity, and that being a non racist means your anti racist.
1. Thinking everybody has a part to play in racism and we all contribute to it, whether we're black talking about white people, or white talking about black people. When one believes that _everyone_ contributes to the phenomenon of racism in America, it then becomes everyone's responsibility to dismantle it. Or rather, everyone has equal obligation to dismantle it.
When (white) people think racism is a color blind phenomenon (everybody contributes to the system of racism against each other), they are consciously or subconsciously absolving themselves of the heavier share of responsibility to dismantle racism. If you present to white people, in 2017, that the phenomenon of racism as it manifests in America is completely up to them to dismantle, they get agitated, defensive, and belligerent.
This is why people get so upset when you say non white people can't be racist, because if that were true, then all the burden of dismantling it would be on them.
2. People think being a non racist means they're an anti racist. Of course you don't call black people niggers or want to hang us from a tree. Yes you tweeted Black Lives Matter that one time. That does not make you an anti racist. That makes you a non racist. As in you actively work to remove yourself from blatantly racist behaviors, but you don't actually engage in the work that dismantles the system and culture of racism. You're a passive observer who's convinced yourself that you've disowned the racist system you benefit from, not realizing you can NEVER remove your privilege. And no, voting is not enough.
When you have these two dogmas it begins to cloud your perception and judgement. People don't like bringing it up because most always their side is the bad guy.
Disclaimer x2: Yes I realize there are more than black and white in America.
For two reasons, people think racism is equal opportunity, and that being a non racist means your anti racist.
1. Thinking everybody has a part to play in racism and we all contribute to it, whether we're black talking about white people, or white talking about black people. When one believes that _everyone_ contributes to the phenomenon of racism in America, it then becomes everyone's responsibility to dismantle it. Or rather, everyone has equal obligation to dismantle it.
When (white) people think racism is a color blind phenomenon (everybody contributes to the system of racism against each other), they are consciously or subconsciously absolving themselves of the heavier share of responsibility to dismantle racism. If you present to white people, in 2017, that the phenomenon of racism as it manifests in America is completely up to them to dismantle, they get agitated, defensive, and belligerent.
This is why people get so upset when you say non white people can't be racist, because if that were true, then all the burden of dismantling it would be on them.
2. People think being a non racist means they're an anti racist. Of course you don't call black people niggers or want to hang us from a tree. Yes you tweeted Black Lives Matter that one time. That does not make you an anti racist. That makes you a non racist. As in you actively work to remove yourself from blatantly racist behaviors, but you don't actually engage in the work that dismantles the system and culture of racism. You're a passive observer who's convinced yourself that you've disowned the racist system you benefit from, not realizing you can NEVER remove your privilege. And no, voting is not enough.
When you have these two dogmas it begins to cloud your perception and judgement. People don't like bringing it up because most always their side is the bad guy.
Can I recommend a book to you? It's short.
Wanting people to understand the stacked manifestations of racism isn't the same thing as labelling white people "bad guys." Additionally, orienting the conversation to whether or not white people are "bad guys" can be quite dismisssive. The hijack method.
And people can be patronizing, insisting they know more about racism than people who actually experience it.
There been a few, but they are always told to get the fuck out. Just like no one pays attention to the Nation of Islam
Smacks as the training wheels version of "Diversity=White Genocide"
you still haven explained how there is a general sentiment of "White people are the bad guys",
I think the "science" behind it is very simple: cognitive dissonance. Reconciling the image of yourself as a good person with the notion of maybe doing/saying or contributing to something that is inherently bad (racism) even on a regular basis is a very hard thing to pull off. That's where the uncomfort comes from.
Haha amazing
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This is important too. Black supremacy groups are treated as the fringe hoteps they are by the community at large, not defended and given platforms like white supremacy groups are.
Okay, I'm going to ask you to read this again.
You quoted this post of mine. Explain to me, where is it attacking an entire group of people and not a thought? By criticizing stating this, did I say that all white people think it? Why should it make anyone feel guilty - any why did it make you think that people would?
The reason that I'm grilling you on this is that I think cases like it contribute. Racism of one party is criticized, and another party - who may be totally well-meaning and never show any attempt to harm people - tries to shut it down because they're worried about accidentally looking bad.
Sorrry if this is a double post, I'm on mobile and am getting more replies than I can quickly respond to.
Slayven, you're right, bad guy was a poor choice of words.
MK, I reread it and it doesn't sound silly to me.
Well that's true. I meant more in an accepted way. There are always extreme elements that don't last long.
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