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[Mammoth Jones]

Pretending racist shit isn't racist has lead to a lot of human suffering.

 

[Darryl M R]

This is important too. Black supremacy groups are treated as the fringe hoteps they are by the community at large, not defended and given platforms like white supremacy groups are.

You catch a Black supremacist hotep on Twitter and Black people shut them down right away and call them out, but you catch a White supremacist on Twitter and you will see White people arguing the importance of free speech.

 

[Orayn]

Well I'm white, so I definitely benefit from white privilege. I think you're trying to say that because I'm white my views on racism are naive (and that is probably true). That I haven't experienced racism on the level that minorities do (also true).

But I mean... I'm white and can't help that. =)

I do my best to not be racist. I try to treat everyone equal and fair. I call out racism when I see it, I'm raising my kids to treat people equally, etc.

But when one kid gets hit and then hits the other back, I teach them that two wrongs don't make a right. Hitting doesn't solve hitting, and racism won't solve racism.

tl;dr: not saying racism towards white people is at all comparable to what minorities experience, but that it's not acceptable for the same reasons ANY racism isn't.

I'm finding you frustrating to interact with because you seem determined to strip any sort of context out of the discussion in favor of saying "IS THIS NOT ALSO RACISM?" because you seem to care about evenly applying the label more than the actual effects it has.

Someone saying "Golly gee, I sure do dislike people of European descent," in principle, isn't very nice. It fits a lot of dictionary definitions of racist, prejudiced, etc. When you step a little beyond that simplistic view of the situation, differences do start to arise, like the fact that white people in the United States and many European countries haven't been enslaved en masse and deprived of the rights afforded to people of other ethnicities. Trying to make an equivalence every time you see something you perceive as anti-white, you do harm the discussion by erasing that context and wasting peoples' time.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

My brother tried to say that I was racist just cause I was white, in the context that I wasn't really "not racist".

It was.... really sad.

 

[Haly]

Does anyone feel there's a big overlap between the "the left is too PC these days" and "the left will call anything racist these days" crowds?

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

There are basically two dominant approaches that white people take with regards to racism.

1. The Liberal approach is to try and be colourblind and use that as the dominant narrative for every discussion on race. "The only way to solve racism is to stop believing in race" basically.

2. The Republican approach is to treat "racist" like an actual racial slur. How many times online have we read something to the effect of, "Oh, so anyone who doesn't agree with you is racist? Who's the real bigot?" <--- I wish I could punch these people in the face.

 

[Slayven]

This is important too. Black supremacy groups are treated as the fringe hoteps they are by the community at large, not defended and given platforms like white supremacy groups are.

Exactly, can you imagine that one hotep dude at the barber shop was givien a platform on CNN? The collective "Man if you don't sit your ass down somewhere" would be heard from space

 

[diaspora]

I agree with Elvis. Here's an example of a GAFfer calling out others as racist if they disagree with him on the subject of race. Why are liberals so fragile that they need to project like this?

 

[Surfinn]

Elvis has left the building.

This legitimately made me laugh

 

[Kelsdesu]

People would rather avoid conversations that need to be had instead of confronting them head on. That and somewhere down the line getting called racist was seen as more horrifying to white America than actually doing something racist.

Many of these individuals deny climate change as well, or don't even wish to discuss it. Its all strangely connected.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I agree with Elvis. Here's an example of a GAFfer calling out others as racist if they disagree with him on the subject of race. Why are liberals so fragile that they need to project like this?

Gooooooooot-damn!

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Does anyone feel there's a big overlap between the "the left is too PC these days" and "the left will call anything racist these days" crowds?

90% of the time, saying someone/something is PC is just code for "I can't be offensive".

So yes.

 

[L Thammy]

Does anyone feel there's a big overlap between the "the left is too PC these days" and "the left will call anything racist these days" crowds?

Seeing as how they're both meant to stifle criticism of someone taking advantage a member of a more vulnerable group, yeah, I'd say they're closely related.

 

[Jarsonot]

Disclaimer: This is about racism in america (before one of you foreign lads get into a tizzy)
Disclaimer x2: Yes I realize there are more than black and white in America.

For two reasons, people think racism is equal opportunity, and that being a non racist means your anti racist.

1. Thinking everybody has a part to play in racism and we all contribute to it, whether we're black talking about white people, or white talking about black people. When one believes that _everyone_ contributes to the phenomenon of racism in America, it then becomes everyone's responsibility to dismantle it. Or rather, everyone has equal obligation to dismantle it.

When (white) people think racism is a color blind phenomenon (everybody contributes to the system of racism against each other), they are consciously or subconsciously absolving themselves of the heavier share of responsibility to dismantle racism. If you present to white people, in 2017, that the phenomenon of racism as it manifests in America is completely up to them to dismantle, they get agitated, defensive, and belligerent.

This is why people get so upset when you say non white people can't be racist, because if that were true, then all the burden of dismantling it would be on them.

2. People think being a non racist means they're an anti racist. Of course you don't call black people niggers or want to hang us from a tree. Yes you tweeted Black Lives Matter that one time. That does not make you an anti racist. That makes you a non racist. As in you actively work to remove yourself from blatantly racist behaviors, but you don't actually engage in the work that dismantles the system and culture of racism. You're a passive observer who's convinced yourself that you've disowned the racist system you benefit from, not realizing you can NEVER remove your privilege. And no, voting is not enough.

When you have these two dogmas it begins to cloud your perception and judgement. People don't like bringing it up because most always their side is the bad guy.

This was interesting, and a good point. I do actively try to not be racist, but apart from stopping racist talk around me I don't do much to really make any change.

Can I recommend a book to you? It's short.

Most definitely.

Wanting people to understand the stacked manifestations of racism isn't the same thing as labelling white people "bad guys." Additionally, orienting the conversation to whether or not white people are "bad guys" can be quite dismisssive. The hijack method.

And people can be patronizing, insisting they know more about racism than people who actually experience it.

Yeah, I'm too slow, but I posted just a bit ago "bad guy" was a poor choice of words - maybe inflammatory and connotations I wasn't looking for.

Good conversation so far, but I have to dip out for awhile. Cheers (and seriously, recommend a book, I read a lot)

 

[Heroman]

This was interesting, and a good point. I do actively try to not be racist, but apart from stopping racist talk around me I don't do much to really make any change.



Most definitely.



Yeah, I'm too slow, but I posted just a bit ago "bad guy" was a poor choice of words - maybe inflammatory and connotations I wasn't looking for.

Good conversation so far, but I have to dip out for awhile. Cheers (and seriously, recommend a book, I read a lot)

Black man in a white coat.

 

[CygnusXS]

My brother tried to say that I was racist just cause I was white, in the context that I wasn't really "not racist".

It was.... really sad.

Research has suggested that most people (American, any race) hold racist beliefs to some degree. So you probably do have some racist beliefs or perform some racist actions, but it's not simply because you're white. It's because your (I'm guessing you're American, but really any white-majority country will work) society is filled with racist values and we all are socialized by them and internalize them to some extent. The great work that we all have to perform, individually, is discovering what our problematic beliefs and tendencies are and then eradicating them. This is not work that you can do if you outright dismiss any existence of racism inside yourself.

Most definitely.

It might be a bit challenging depending on your exposure to classical liberal theory, but Charles Mills' The Racial Contract is a good resource. Helps clarify why understanding racism is a continually difficult process for white people.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Edit: lol at all the racism already in this topic. Tell me more about what white people do and think. =)

As a white man, I can tell you that some of my fellow whites aren't nearly as good as hiding their disingenuous arguments as they think they are.

 

[The Artisan]

also i think i mentioned in the splatoon thread that growing up, i used to think black people were the same as me; it wasn't until later how we are sociopolitically "different". so maybe to an extent, race itself is "social construct" as they call it?

 

[One Eyed Willy]

White people don't want to talk about race. It makes them feel unconformable.

Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.

 

[Enzom21]

Does anyone feel there's a big overlap between the "the left is too PC these days" and "the left will call anything racist these days" crowds?

These are also the same people like HallucinatingElvis who only recognize racism(real or imagined) when it's directed at white people.
Everything other form of racism is just "the left branding every fucking thing racist"

 

[Darryl M R]

Edit: lol at all the racism already in this topic. Tell me more about what white people do and think. =)

Bless your heart.

Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.

When was the last time the generalization of White people resulted in mass incarnation or could be argued that they could be perfect test subjects to medically unethical practices for the sake of science? If you care so much about the fact that a poster did not include the word "certain" or "most" in front of their sentence when discussing White people then I hope your annoyance is multiplied to the equivalent degree when people of color face harsher treatment.

 

[Jarsonot]

I'm finding you frustrating to interact with because you seem determined to strip any sort of context out of the discussion in favor of saying "IS THIS NOT ALSO RACISM?" because you seem to care about evenly applying the label more than the actual effects it has.

Someone saying "Golly gee, I sure do dislike people of European descent," in principle, isn't very nice. It fits a lot of dictionary definitions of racist, prejudiced, etc. When you step a little beyond that simplistic view of the situation, differences do start to arise, like the fact that white people in the United States and many European countries haven't been enslaved en masse and deprived of the rights afforded to people of other ethnicities. Trying to make an equivalence every time you see something you perceive as anti-white, you do harm the discussion by erasing that context and wasting peoples' time.

Argh, I've really got to go after this, but wanted to say:

I'm sorry I'm frustrating you, not my intent. And I understand that comparatively I basically have had to deal with zero racism compared to minorities. My main point is I don't think being racist back is the answer to racism.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Something else I wanna get off my chest: Fuck talking about racism.

Like, it's 2017. Stop being racist. Call that shit out on every fucking level. Doesn't matter if it's white on black black on white this on that. Call that shit out. If you see it personally or on a policy level.

Why is this so hard?

 

[diaspora]

Something else I wanna get off my chest: Fuck talking about racism.

Like, it's 2017. Stop being racist. Call that shit out on every fucking level. Doesn't matter if it's white on black black on white this on that. Call that shit out. If you see it personally or on a policy level.

Why is this so hard?

White people don't want to talk about race. It makes them feel unconformable.

.

 

[Deepwater]

Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.

people got upset at that post but it's not really untrue.

whiteness is the dominant culture, it's the presiding social force. It can be identified, measured, and analyzed.

The fact that yall got so upset about it just makes it super ironic. whiteness doesn't like to acknowledge differences because whiteness has convinced itself that everybody is treated equal.

I mean, honestly. It's a generalizing statement but it's like saying east asian cultures are heavily invested on hierarchy when it comes to work culture. It's something that's been identified, measured, and analyzed.

 

[diaspora]

Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.

White people don't want to talk about race. It makes them feel unconformable.

Evergreen.

 

[Deepwater]

Argh, I've really got to go after this, but wanted to say:

I'm sorry I'm frustrating you, not my intent. And I understand that comparatively I basically have had to deal with zero racism compared to minorities. My main point is I don't think being racist back is the answer to racism.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. You can avoid talking about racism if you posit that grouping together the main benefactors of racism is also racist.

 

[TheTylerRob]

If fragile white people didn't post in these threads, would these threads even exist at all?

Really makes you think.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

.

I'm sayin...I don't need to talk about racism to not be racist. Just don't be racist. Don't let others be racist. Call out racist shit including political policy.

It's the lack of that action that necessitates a conversation in 2017.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Thread about racism, first post groups an entire race together and assumes judgement. Off to a great start.

People who are in the majority don't think about their race and don't have to think about other races. A lot of subjects that people don't talk about make them uncomfortable. Therefore, as the majority group in the US, white people don't normally have to think about race, so they don't like talking about it.

There's nothing wrong with that first post. The real problem is people like you refusing to put any real thought into the subject, so you just get all offended and muddy the waters. All you're doing is proving the point while making the rest of us look bad.

 

[diaspora]

I'm sayin...I don't need to talk about racism to not be racist. Just don't be racist. Don't let others be racist. Call out racist shit including political policy.

It's the lack of that action that necessitates a conversation in 2017.

White people don't want to hear it because it makes them uncomfortable. That's what makes it hard specifically.

 

[Surfinn]

I think part of the problem is that some people think of racism as being either on or off, yes or no. So they take extreme offense because they don't understand the point and the conversation jumps straight to "you're just pulling the race card, I'm not racist". So it's easily dismissed and the conversion becomes pointless. The "nigga" rap lyrics scene in Dear White People comes to mind. I felt like that drove the point home pretty well.

I guess it's just easier to turn the conversation around based on emotionally driven and ignorant assumptions instead of taking a step back and actually examining the situation.

 

[Heroman]

I'm sayin...I don't need to talk about racism to not be racist. Just don't be racist. Don't let others be racist. Call out racist shit including political policy.

It's the lack of that action that necessitates a conversation in 2017.

The problem is that it flat out racism isn't the issue, institutional racism which can white people don't talk about

 

[Reeks]

I'm sayin...I don't need to talk about racism to not be racist. Just don't be racist. Don't let others be racist. Call out racist shit including political policy.

It's the lack of that action that necessitates a conversation in 2017.

What if you can't see it?

If one can't see a tree in the forest, did 'liberals' make it up?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

What if you can't see it?

If one can't see a tree in the forest, did 'liberals' make it up?

The problem is that it flat out racism isn't the issue, institutional racism which can white people don't talk about

Yep. Exactly. Which needs to be dismantled but a lot of folks don't wanna give up white supremacy. But they don't wanna come out and say it outright.

 

[Nephtis]

I don't think it is that it makes white people feel uncomfortable.

It's that it usually turns into "well you're white, what would you know?". It usually boils down to that. It's especially difficult when one side wants to be confrontational - and in most threads, there's always that one person perfectly happy to have a super snide comment or make a seemingly innocent comment that just brings shit on a downward spiral.

At the same time, I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to not sound accusatory when discussing race. After all, we're talking about the flaws of a group of people - there is no one that that has a truly unbiased view. But I think progress is made when people get together and talk about those issues and actually make an effort to not see who has the higher moral ground.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

HallucinatingElvis respond if you're okay.

He got bodied so badly.

 

[Not]

Because when ignorance makes your life easy, knowledge is threatening.

 

[Derwind]

Some people would rather lose themselves in the minutiae of semantics rather than actually unpack their own ignorance.

Look how hard people latch on to "black lives matter", they literally cannot get past the naming.

And that gets into how movements that have positive & morally upright motivations get turned into something seen as negative.

I literally cannot explain this aside from very deep & unaddressed insecurity.

I agree with Elvis. Here's an example of a GAFfer calling out others as racist if they disagree with him on the subject of race. Why are liberals so fragile that they need to project like this?

The sound of a soul escaping...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Some people would rather lose themselves in the minutiae of semantics rather than actually unpack their own ignorance.

Look how hard people latch on to "black lives matter", they literally cannot get past the naming.

And that gets into how movements that have positive & morally upright motivations get turned into something seen as negative.

I literally cannot explain this aside from very deep & unaddressed insecurity.

Black empowerment movements have always been redefined by its adversaries in the US. FBI went out of their way to do it in the 60's.

 

[BKK]

It's something that shows up here routinely, and it deserves it's own topic, lest it take up space in other threads.

If someone talks about racism in response to, say, a "police kill unarmed black youth who was doing nothing wrong" story, it does not:

• brand the word "racist" on the officer's forehead
• distract people from possible practical improvements that can be made (e.g. better training and protocols for officers)
• "cheapen" the terribleness of incidents of more blatant, explicit racism

And many more.

What makes people think the above happens when people bring up racism? Even if these were the case, why would anyone think they're worth mentioning?

I'm probably talking from the benefit of another country, but I don't think there's a massive racist thing in this country, at least not what my black mates think. Maybe my attitude (which I think is quite common) is that racism is pretty non-existent makes people think that it's a non-issue (I realise that it's a bigger deal in US).

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Some people would rather lose themselves in the minutiae of semantics rather than actually unpack their own ignorance.

Look how hard people latch on to "black lives matter", they literally cannot get past the naming.

And that gets into how movements that have positive & morally upright motivations get turned into something seen as negative.

I literally cannot explain this aside from very deep & unaddressed insecurity.

Or people losing their shit over a 30sec teaser of Dear White People.

 

[L Thammy]

Some people would rather lose themselves in the minutiae of semantics rather than actually unpack their own ignorance.

Look how hard people latch on to "black lives matter", they literally cannot get past the naming.

And that gets into how movements that have positive & morally upright motivations get turned into something seen as negative.

I literally cannot explain this aside from very deep & unaddressed insecurity.

I think it's easily explainable by a self-centered worldview. Like, with Black Lives Matter, there really isn't anything semantically wrong. There's nothing wrong with the statement itself. The "issue" is when people look at it and think but what about me. Their worldview turns Black Lives Matter into Only Black Lives Matter, because why would someone even talk about black lives if they weren't actually commenting on the observer's life.

All lives matter shouldn't be a counter to black lives matter, because if all lives matter that means that black lives matter.

 

[Orayn]

Some people would rather lose themselves in the minutiae of semantics rather than actually unpack their own ignorance.

Look how hard people latch on to "black lives matter", they literally cannot get past the naming.

And that gets into how movements that have positive & morally upright motivations get turned into something seen as negative.

I literally cannot explain this aside from very deep & unaddressed insecurity.

See also: "I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist/egalitarian/one of the bad guys from The Legend of Korra."

And woe unto you if you try to bring up intersectional feminism and tell them this stuff is all related.

 

[The Kree]

Sometimes it's hard to look in the mirror when you're ugly.

 

[Deepwater]

I don't think it is that it makes white people feel uncomfortable.

It's that it usually turns into "well you're white, what would you know?". It usually boils down to that. It's especially difficult when one side wants to be confrontational - and in most threads, there's always that one person perfectly happy to have a super snide comment or make a seemingly innocent comment that just brings shit on a downward spiral.

At the same time, I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to not sound accusatory when discussing race. After all, we're talking about the flaws of a group of people - there is no one that that has a truly unbiased view. But I think progress is made when people get together and talk about those issues and actually make an effort to not see who has the higher moral ground.

Paraphrasing James Baldwin, white people have trouble acknowledging their whiteness in the way that a black person being lynched has to look down at the entire crowd of angry white faces while a white individual in the crowd only has to look up at the one black person hanging from a tree.

Non whites have a better grasp of whiteness because we are forced to grapple with it everyday. White people aren't.

 

[BKK]

Paraphrasing James Baldwin, white people have trouble acknowledging their whiteness in the way that a black person being lynched has to look down at the entire crowd of angry white faces while a white individual in the crowd only has to look up at the one black person hanging from a tree.

Non whites have a better grasp of whiteness because we are forced to grapple with it everyday. White people aren't.

I don't think you need to be a certain colour to know if lynching is right or wrong .... it's pretty obvious

 

[Lesath]

I don't think you need to be a certain colour to know if lynching is right or wrong .... it's pretty obvious

The difference between "that's wrong" and "that's wrong, and that could be me".

 

[Deepwater]

I don't think you need to be a certain colour to know if lynching is right or wrong .... it's pretty obvious

reread my post, go google some baldwin, and then try again

 

[Got]

I agree with Elvis. Here's an example of a GAFfer calling out others as racist if they disagree with him on the subject of race. Why are liberals so fragile that they need to project like this?

whoopsie daisy