Wow now that I think about it Love Plus VR would be a killer app for some people.
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My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
Wow now that I think about it Love Plus VR would be a killer app for some people.
Hot girl asks if you want to see her in a picture of bikini. You nod. She shows you. Do you feel guilty? Y/Y.
Actually no. Some of my (university!) students are on Facebook in bikini. I ain't feeling guilty for not looking away. As long as they're adults I don't see the problem.
I guess you're right senpai shouldn't flirt with student. But eh, it's a fantasy.
YianGaruga
Banned
It does? How?
I'm not judging anyone but can we admit that as humans sometimes we feel a degree of embarrassment for the way others behave?
If I see someone walk out of the grocery store with 10 boxes of Twinkies my initial reaction is "if that were me I'd feel embarrassed".
The whole point of the OP is to acknowledge that uncomfortable feeling in response to Summer Lesson and try to explore why that feeling exists at all, and why seeing a grown adult purchasing summer lesson might yield a different reaction than seeing somebody purchasing Killzone.
I think I tried to make it pretty clear in the OP that the potential moral questions raised here are not black and white and that's the very reason I think it warrants discussion.
If it were straight up a game about non-consensual groping of young girls, I'd very much hold the opinion of "that's fucked up, and I think the people who sincerely enjoy that are also kind of fucked up."
Summer Lesson isn't that, but there are arguably very small hints of it. So is it 100% okay? Is it 100% not okay? I don't think the answer is that easy. It deserves more thought than that.
That's a loaded OP. Porn would be better because it's honest? The simulation of an overt sexual fantasy is ok but the simulation of a virtual meeting is too creepy? The biggest attraction of VR is how real or intimate a gameplay situation can become, how closely we can interact with it, so they are certainly trying to humanize the character by design, but I'm not sure lusting for a character jumps straight to dehumanizing for every player.
Anyway, I think my favorite take away from this game has been from early players that said they felt a bit nervous with game character being so friendly and in your face. That level of interactivity and sense presence is what can elevate VR in a narrative sense in future games.
Anyway, I think my favorite take away from this game has been from early players that said they felt a bit nervous with game character being so friendly and in your face. That level of interactivity and sense presence is what can elevate VR in a narrative sense in future games.
TheSpoiler
Member
Autofokus
Member
Hmm, I thought this game was similar to the DoA beach stuff, but the let's play I just watched (english fan translation) looks rather tame.
Basically Love Plus VR is what I wanted from Summer Lesson. It certainly shows some potential, but the game is lacking in content at the moment even to compare it with Love Plus.
Well games like DOAX3 are Cero D rated (Over 18yr to play), while Summer Lesson is Cero B (Over 12)
YianGaruga
Banned
No, I dont feel that way about other people if it's something they do in their personal space without affecting others. That's you, and exactly the problem I have with your post.
You derailed your own thread with this. If you want to actually discuss Summer lesson maybe don't be openly judgemental of people with a different opinion.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Maybe they're just super frugal and Twinkies had an exceptionally awesome sale that week so they stocked up for the year! Thrifty ain't something to be embarrassed about.
chaobreaker
Member
I think I get what you mean, OP. Seems like VR games that explore sexuality would do it in a voyeuristic and creepy way. Its inherent to the way VR works. Head tracking and all that jazz.
TheSpoiler
Member
Nah fam, that almost sounds like fat shaming.
This isn't considered judging people?
packy34
Member
Yeah, just like GTA rotted all of our morals. You can't even go outside without seeing someone getting carjacked or shot these days. Oh video games, why'd you have to do this to us?
I can't believe the comparisons to shooters some posters are making. In shooters you are almost exclusively killing anonymous avatars that might as well be robots. With Summer Lesson the whole point is that this girl has a name and you get to know her. It's still obviously not a real person, but leagues ahead any anonymous baddy in shooter games. VR also enhances the creepiness in the fact that the way you can leer at her is similar to how a creep would actually do it in real life.
You can have initial reaction like that for your self, but saying it out loud or even typing it on internet is pretty terrible imo.
Wow hahahaha I don't think I'd even care to notice what random strangers carry out of grocery store
Anyway I played the game as a straight female and had no problem treating her as a cute little sister. I don't think she specifically address the character as a male either.
Feel free to be however embarrassed for me you want
Fatal Futanari
Member
It is not your type of game. Fair enough as you do give some good points. But...
You disgust me OP
Again why so negative right away? There are many reasons why they could have 10 boxes. Lmao wow OP
People are lying if they act like they don't at least briefly "judge" someone they see doing something, but this game isn't bad enough to warrant any kind of harsh judgement. Save your "that's creepy!!" thoughts for adults in akiba in DVD stores buying junior idol trading cards, not someone buying a boring VR game that probably just wants to stream it for fun and making viral twitter video clips.
BigEmil
Junior Member
YianGaruga
Banned
For buying games or food or whatever? No, I'm not lying.
Why the fuck would I judge people over that
anothertech
Member
It's more embarrassing to me that some people feel the need to express their distaste for others harmless fantasies.
Also there's judgement coming from somewhere if you pick up a game like summer lesson and get a strange look from someone right?
I know you're joking but that's part of my point.
We have gut reactions all the time that may not be warranted.
Maybe someone purchases summer lesson because they genuinely wanted a tutoring game. Maybe someone buys it because they genuinely don't have many friends and this is a cool way to feel a degree of interaction. Maybe someone just buys it because heck, they just felt like buying something.
However, to say we are all so morally tuned that we don't make internal speculations as to the motivations of others based on their behaviour, even if we dont' have all the facts, is either naive or dishonest. In the case of Summer Lesson, it gets weird, and grey.
If I am really the only person on GAF who's initial reaction to the thought of someone playing this game is a raised eyebrow, well we can delete this, call it a day, and I can go back to posting about laptop prices.
forknknife
Banned
I agree 100% with you OP.
I guess this game does not yet cross the line into pedophilia territory but it's not that far off and certainly many others will do it eventually. But, that aside, it's just such an embarrassing game, i would not be caught dead playing something like that unless it's just to make fun of it so I too am surprised by the number of people being all over it and the sale numbers in Japan (although that's too be expected).
In any case, i would not say this game should not exist, people can do whatever they want to satisfy their weird fantasies but, obviously, they should not be surprised others think it's creepy as hell too.
But it's an interesting debate. Even if it's all fantasy and role playing, when does a videogame cross the line? If abusing the trust of a student to creep into her is ok, when is it not? What if there's a game purposely designed to satisfy the urges of a racist person to beat up people from a race they hate? That would not sit too well would it?
But that would not happen today (at least not from a well respected publisher) because racism is a big no-no but it's obvious that the industry does not take the sexual objectification of women as seriously. But well, in the end it's all just a reflection of our whole society, of course (women included).
Now cue all those people hating on me because I'm a PC nut like when i made that thread about the Deus Ex Angry Joe review...
I guess this game does not yet cross the line into pedophilia territory but it's not that far off and certainly many others will do it eventually. But, that aside, it's just such an embarrassing game, i would not be caught dead playing something like that unless it's just to make fun of it so I too am surprised by the number of people being all over it and the sale numbers in Japan (although that's too be expected).
In any case, i would not say this game should not exist, people can do whatever they want to satisfy their weird fantasies but, obviously, they should not be surprised others think it's creepy as hell too.
But it's an interesting debate. Even if it's all fantasy and role playing, when does a videogame cross the line? If abusing the trust of a student to creep into her is ok, when is it not? What if there's a game purposely designed to satisfy the urges of a racist person to beat up people from a race they hate? That would not sit too well would it?
But that would not happen today (at least not from a well respected publisher) because racism is a big no-no but it's obvious that the industry does not take the sexual objectification of women as seriously. But well, in the end it's all just a reflection of our whole society, of course (women included).
Now cue all those people hating on me because I'm a PC nut like when i made that thread about the Deus Ex Angry Joe review...
TheSpoiler
Member
I agree with your other points but not this. I mean, if you are leering at her in the game, that's a choice, just like in real life. There's a difference between leering and interacting as a normal human being, and I think most people can do the later just fine.
SL is such a tame title that it's really hard to evoke a powerful discussion about sexuality with the title. Maybe it's that the OP is questioning the motives of the developers by making this game. Inbetween the constant judging, anyway.
There's a game that's straight up ripping off SL and is far worse than Namco's title. I'd say that one is a lot more overt, but at the same time, more honest.
User123456
Member
Between this and Kung Fury, it's like the 80s never left!
OP, I think there isn't a human being on earth that's even remotely interested in Summer Lesson who doesn't realize it's a sexual fantasy/fetish simulator (as long as we understand that "sexual" can mean "erotic", not just full blown porn). The girl's obliviousness is just part of the fantasy, and it's just that, fantasy. Whether it is VR or not doesn't matter, just like it didn't matter when movies became more real than books. Just like it didn't matter when games became more real than movies.
But I do agree with one thing: I find it depressing that Summer Lesson (and things like it, essentially waifu simulators) is what's becoming wildly popular in relation to VR in japan. I find it sad because for a while now I've had the feeling that every meaningful type of game and anime is slowly being replaced by nothing but fanservice, dating sims and waifus.
It's not the fact that this game exists, it's not the fact that people want this game, it's the fact that people seem to predominantly prefer this sort of game over anything else in japan.
But that's just my reaction as a dumb foreigner. Reality might be completely different for someone who actually lives there, I dunno. I'm open to being corrected and I hope I'm wrong.
Yes, I get what he's saying, and what I'm saying is that this "morals" thing is all relative. What OP finds questionable, or "awkward shudder and eye-rolling", is to other people just fiction that has no bearing whatsoever to their real lives.
Eolz
Member
If you keep saying you're embarassed or feel sorry for people, all while trying to convince yourself that you're open-minded, that you "don't think that this game shouldn't exist", and various other counter-arguments to your own point to try to avoid criticism, I'm not sure an actual discussion can be had to be honest...
In a way I can understand what you are saying OP but....I don't necessarily see a problem with a game like this. I mean do have some options about this game but I don't ultimately care to express it. I just don't care what this game is or who likes it, it's basically a glorified VN that is in VR. If people like then ok for them it doesn't involve me and I won't really judge them for it.
Of course though if the game was doing some really disturbing like a rape scenario then yeah that's not gonna fly.
Of course though if the game was doing some really disturbing like a rape scenario then yeah that's not gonna fly.
Take this sentence back 15 years and refer it to GTA.
Take it back 20 years and refer it to Mortal Kombat.
It's the same weak argument against escapism. The only difference is that instead of enacting sociopathic violence we're shifting into voyeurism. It's an escape just as the previous games and the majority of people will be able to distinguish reality from fiction.
There's nothing to be concerned here, especially as it's actually a really tame game.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If I'm being honest my initial expectation would be that the people buying this title are the type to have anime avatars, whine about censorship, and defend '1000 year old dragons' in games. But I generally don't scorn them on that assumption until they actually open their mouth to let the drivel out.
I don't know what kind of deep judgement the OP passes on people, but nothing people can purchase will even cause a minor shift in reaction from you?
I remember going to a Chinese buffet once and seeing someone walk back to their table alone with 2 plates that had literal pyramids of maybe 30+ chicken balls on each of them. I'm not going to write an essay about them like OP but I guess I had a 2 second "dam......" reaction. As tame as that is, I consider it some kind of judging.
You should try looking at the Media Create threads sometime. The fanservice-heavy games sell a tiny amount compared to stuff like Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest and family-friendly stuff. They just have dedicated fanbases.
TheSpoiler
Member
Saying "...damn" in your mind is different than trying to justify your judgment with a super long winded post on NeoGAF using sexuality and "morals" as a buffer to feel superior to others. We can't expect everyone to be clean, honestly, but that's why we have context.
User123456
Member
I'll have a look. If so, consider this dumb foreigner corrected and his hope in humanity restored.
I guess it's just a case of the total oversaturation of products that are made available for that niche audience then?
Oh I'm finding a ton of japanese stuff that I love alright (Bayonetta 2, Samurai Warriors 4ii, Guilty Gear Xrd, Metal Gear Solid V...), it's just that it seems to be drowning in a sea of pantsu and swimsuit DLC.
But as you guys said it might just be a case of Steam Greenlightitis = Tons of products but it doesn't actually reflect what's popular. If so, I'm relieved.
The market for this stuff is pretty small and you have nothing to worry about. There's still tons of good content in all of the media you mentioned; you just aren't putting in the effort to find it. It's like when people complain about how bad music is nowadays because they don't want to look for a little bit.
YianGaruga
Banned
I might have some kind of reaction like that, but I wouldn't call that judging.
I don't try to infer some kind of personality trait or lack of morals based on what someone eats or plays.
like this. We all know what this post is implying.
Fatal Futanari
Member
Pretty much.
Everyone has knee jerk reactions to things. But the OP is in judging territory. I mean did you feel embarrassed/sorry for that guy and come make a thread on GAF about it? Lmao
packy34
Member
Honestly? No. I for one care absolutely zero about what other people do unless it affects me (or the people in my life). I've learned over the years that a lot of things that seem "weird" at first glance often have explanations that we can't consider without proper context, and therefore we are almost always not in a position to judge actions taken by others.
Fatal Futanari
Member
Its already here man. You see the usb onahole attachments? SIGN. ME. UP.
Actually, it probably would sell more if it did have a guy tutor as well.
forknknife
Banned
But not really. A violent game can be just mindless escapism if it's Liu Kang ripping the head of Goro, a fantasy evil monster and Yada Yada Yada. But what if it was a GTA game in which you are a KKK member and go about killing black people exclusively? That wouldn't be right.
Same with a sexual or erotica game. I don't give two shits about the sexual fantasies of people but pedophilia and making a role playing game in which you characterize a teacher that utilizes the trust of their "barely legal" students to do this or that.... i think that's just going into a very nasty place.
But what if the entire basis for feeling that way is because I see the game itself as intentionally attempting to evoke a morally questionable response from the player?
Is it closed minded to wonder about people who get excited to play a rape simulator?
Summer Lesson isn't a rape simulator, but the OP is meant to get at the difficult question: "What exactly are we supposed to be enjoying about this situation, and is there a ethical issue here?"
For people who see zero moral detriments to the game, that's totally their prerogative. But for others, it seems weird, and creepy, and I don't think it's closed minded to feel that way.
Which is totally fine. People have different interests, some stranger than others. The OP seems to have a problem with people who aren't completely vanilla in their tastes.
