Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I better stay out of this discussion since all I can think of rhymes with peekaboo.
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My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
TheSpoiler
Member
Actually, before release, GAF was clamoring for a male character. And if they switched it up to Hei from Tekken, I think the hilarity would be more my speed!
But whatever. People can have what they like, female or male.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Sex sells but sex would never sell as much as family friendly.
It's like when people think everyone in Japan watch late night otaku anime because they themselves only know about otaku anime. But the reality is the most well known shows are the children shows in the day.
DonkeySauce
Neo Member
OP really made me feel bad for liking Summer Lesson so much. I'll go back to playing my western games where I can senselessly murder people.
User123456
Member
Why not? I know that there would be a massive outrage, but I don't see why it wouldn't be "right" in the sense of "should not be allowed to exist" and especially in the sense of "it will turn you into a white supremacist serial killer or even just a white supremacist". If a murdering game doesn't turn you into a murderer, why would a racist murderer game turn you into a racist, let alone a racist murderer?
Don't really had problem with this game lol when we already had Love Plus lol.
I mean, just like books which all kinds of books, games should also be allowed to explore as they want. And this game i feel is example of that.
And i surely don't see the problem of people going into this game focusing on the tutor aspect. I mean simulation genre does exist right.(Like Princess Maker where u had a job to train a princess into ur dream princess.)
I mean, just like books which all kinds of books, games should also be allowed to explore as they want. And this game i feel is example of that.
And i surely don't see the problem of people going into this game focusing on the tutor aspect. I mean simulation genre does exist right.(Like Princess Maker where u had a job to train a princess into ur dream princess.)
I think that sometimes it's easier to go on a Witch Hunt and lambaste someone instead of really thinking the issue through. I can assure you I don't feel any sense of superiority to anyone other than Leafs fans.
TheSpoiler
Member
See, this is why you are bad at discussing this. Attempting to draw SL as a "rape sim" is not good for any sort of talk when it's a far cry from such. Oh, it isn't you said? Then why make the connection between a waifu sim and such a dark act?
You aren't asking "why do people enjoy this game that's personally my speed". It's been pointed out many times that your intent is "why do people enjoy this trash that I don't like man those people are dumb".
Again, you aren't here for discussion. You wanted to feel superior and thought people would rally against you. Next time I suggest doing some research on the game prior, or at least not tripling down on the judgment aspect.
If you really want to have a discussion, your posts should reflect that. None of them have. In fact, they only reinforce the fact that this is more about your lack of understanding of enjoyment with SL rather than the concept of SL being sexualized (I mean, was that not the original purpose of this topic?(. Had you came in like "dude, I don't get it", I'm sure people would describe what they see in the game, but when you post things like "man look at this dude getting twinkies don't we all judge
", it doesn't help. Even now, you refuse see the errors here, despite many people showing you the problem with your messages.
But if there wasn't an option and the player was forced into having a male tutor? Yeah... I don't think that's what many are looking for with this.
...you're selling me with this Heihachi pitch.
When writing this post I was thinking of arguments against my own points, and the one I thought for sure would come up is "Why assume that the player isn't the exact same age as the student?"
Which, if that were the case, the girlfriend simulator argument makes much more sense.
Being realistic though, I don't really buy it.
YianGaruga
Banned
Why?
There's definitely a skeeviness to this thing. As the OP says, it's the wall between the player and the girl that makes it weird.
If it were a straight-up dating sim in which the girl knew the players intentions, that'd be fine. Not my thing, but fine. That this title hides the player's leering (and let's be honest, the game exists at least partly for that purpose) behind a tutor/student relationship that is, as far as the girl is concerned, innocent, leans too far to the creepy side for me.
If it were a straight-up dating sim in which the girl knew the players intentions, that'd be fine. Not my thing, but fine. That this title hides the player's leering (and let's be honest, the game exists at least partly for that purpose) behind a tutor/student relationship that is, as far as the girl is concerned, innocent, leans too far to the creepy side for me.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
All that means is that a different group of people would be eating it up.
Or do you not think there's a market for women who likes pretty boys?
packy34
Member
Why not? Context matters. If this game was trying to tell a legitimate story via the player doing awful things, it could be extremely effective at getting its message across. If it was designed exclusively to cheer on racism, that's different.
forknknife
Banned
I mean a game with a pro KKK agenda, that would be ok? If there would be anybody playing that game and agreeing with what's being portrayed in the game i would just think that person is a racist fuck. The same way, somebody that plays a pedophile role playing game (again, not saying summer lesson crosses that line) and think it's OK to be like that well, sorry, that's a pedophile fuck.
You may argue that it's better that they do this shit in a videogame rather than in real life because who knows what they would do otherwise if they did not have that outlet but... that's like the only one argument playing to its favor, honestly.
Presumably because the nearly 1 grand buy in to play the game is not exactly feasible for many teenagers.
OfTheOverflow
Member
Great write-up OP, and I agree. In all the PSVR threads, the game is always mentioned it's never really criticized for being creepy. In particular, I totally agree with your statement that the existence of games like this isn't deplorable, but the unabashedly pervy factor and somewhat 'hidden agenda' thing makes me uncomfortable. Frankly, I find it unsettling that this is acceptable and even considered 'lite' for a Japanese audience, but I guess that's not really my place to judge. If it was a bit more flagrant it'd be fine, but, having not played the game, the sexual aspect seems to lean more towards 'take advantage of' territory. Haven't read any other comments, but this is what I believe.
sechsterangriff
Member
It's a "raise a character" type of game with VR meant to simulate human interaction by creating some awkward and uncanny situations. There's literally no lewdness whatsoever in the game (at least beyond whatever you bring with you anyways).
Its fantasy and escapism and like any other videogame it doesnt necessarily have any bearing into what people do in real life.
Its fantasy and escapism and like any other videogame it doesnt necessarily have any bearing into what people do in real life.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
she does call him sensei and he is her tutor, those do go hand in hand though. That should at least put him a couple years ahead of her.
I feel like there were no real strong arguments made to support your condemnation of this game. Instead you seem to be making assumptions about people's intentions.
We know some people will be interested in it purely for titillation, but I am sure plenty are more drawn to the promise of experiencing a lifelike (or something that aims to be), virtual interaction.
I don't know, man; I have a hard time seeing the game as the problem here...
We know some people will be interested in it purely for titillation, but I am sure plenty are more drawn to the promise of experiencing a lifelike (or something that aims to be), virtual interaction.
I don't know, man; I have a hard time seeing the game as the problem here...
IbukiLordSA
Member
Different things are enjoyed by different people, some people will like this and others won't. Some people will get it while others will think but why.
For example I think a game like Manhunt shouldn't exist yet it is played and loved by many people. I just ignore it and move on. Who am I to point a finger at someone because they enjoy something I don't or think differently about something than I do.
This seems like a game that VR was built for and in the end none of it is real so there shouldn't be any issue regarding the content of the game. Ignore it and put the effort into something more constructive that you enjoy. In terms of VR gaming I can see why this would be pushed and there is nothing wrong with that.
For example I think a game like Manhunt shouldn't exist yet it is played and loved by many people. I just ignore it and move on. Who am I to point a finger at someone because they enjoy something I don't or think differently about something than I do.
This seems like a game that VR was built for and in the end none of it is real so there shouldn't be any issue regarding the content of the game. Ignore it and put the effort into something more constructive that you enjoy. In terms of VR gaming I can see why this would be pushed and there is nothing wrong with that.
forknknife
Banned
But it's the latter that I'm actually saying, see my post above, so you're actually agreeing with me. Now extrapolate this to a videogame that's basically telling you it's ok to abuse of a child, that's not right either.
User123456
Member
Nobody agrees with what they do in videogames. Or do you think people agree with running over civvies in real life while doing so in GTA?
Umm. Why is it not realistic?O_O I mean, having the player being the same age or at least her senior by one year does not seems out of logic?
And another question here. Why is that a problem? I mean, is it a problem for a college student to tutor a high school student?O_O
YianGaruga
Banned
I wasn't aware that the age of your avatar always has to be exactly the same as your real age.
sure, but a tutor can be just 1-2 years older. Not really an issue is it.
Ban Puncher
Member
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Wait, Summer Lesson isn't super softcore VR anime fap material?
I don't think this is the same as "I listen to Fugazi and the people who listen to Nickleback are fools."
I'm basing my argument on the possibility that there are moral issues at play here.
And I think the rape simulator is a totally pertinent example to mention, because if that were the type of game in question, I don't think many people would be so keen on the "it's just a game" defense.
The reason it applies to Summer Lesson is that I personally feel like that is a game that falls somewhere on the spectrum between rape simulator and dating sim. Obviously it falls way closer to dating sim, but I argue that there are vague hints of non-consentuality here, and for that reason I'm not willing to give it a free pass.
Pikachu? How lewd
User123456
Member
Actually this is really relevant. I tutored a girl in high school who eventually became my girlfriend. I'm absolutely sure she knew what she was getting into since she was the one who asked me to do it and eventually the one who asked me out, but she acted oblivious/innocent throughout most of the ordeal. We were both 15. This happens in real life and it isn't necessarily wrong.
But honestly this doesn't even matter to me in the "moral argument" because IMO there is no moral argument to be made. Videogames are not real. People do immoral shit in videogames without agreeing with it and without applying to it to their life or personality. It's just a game.
Both of these games would be obliterated by the press and probably not sold by any major retailers. Society and the market generally takes care of those.
That's not to say these games would even be problematic, though. Chances are that anyone buying them would already share similar ideologies to those of the game.
It's "funny" how we've had to go through so many years of VIDEO GAMES CORRUPT OUR CHILDREN AND PROMOTE VIOLENCE with no scientific evidence of that happening and now a new generation of moral police tries to do the same with anything sexual.
sechsterangriff
Member
I wonder if you even have the slightest idea on what the game is about. Speaking about agendas...
packy34
Member
Sure, but that's not what SL actually is - that's just what some people here are projecting on to it. People are ignoring posters in this thread who have actually played it and are telling everyone how tame it really is. There was a someone a page back who identified as a straight female who said she played it and saw the girl as a little sister. I'll go out on a limb here and infer that means that that player did not feel like the game forced her into anything sexual.
Someone will find a way to position yourself just right to get the sought after panty peek.
In regards to what? You can't do anything sexual with her, or even kiss her or anything.
forknknife
Banned
Not "anything" sexual. There's a difference between consensual and non consensual sex.
As the designer, you can set the age of the player character to whatever you want, that doesn't mean the motivation behind creating this game was actually to give people the chance to feel like a college tutor.
YianGaruga
Banned
Maybe she doesn't even want to learn anything
This.
OP, you're making a stupid amount of assumptions about a game you haven't played or seen all that much.
Hierophant
Banned
look i lean towards straight most of the time but don't tell me that you don't want a strong, fatherly heihachi teaching you algebra and then throwing you into a volcano
Smooth Operator
Member
Email Harada.
On a more serious note OP, i feel like you're taking Summer Lesson way too seriously. It's nothing more than a talk with a girl simulator.
On a more serious note OP, i feel like you're taking Summer Lesson way too seriously. It's nothing more than a talk with a girl simulator.
TheSpoiler
Member
Can you show me these points of non-consentuality? Just a few pages ago, you didn't even know it was tame and now you are claiming that there's hidden rape in the game?
And people are going to respond differently to a game that's an actual fucking rape simulator because it's an actual fucking rape simulator. That shouldn't be too difficult to understand, since context is important and all that.
rochellepaws
Member
If a teenager showing you a picture of her swimming trip with friends sets off sexual alarm bells in your mind then surely that is you corrupting an innocent gesture?
Also please don't presume the player is male or straight. If the player was a woman would you perceive the character sharing photos as flirtatious?
Also please don't presume the player is male or straight. If the player was a woman would you perceive the character sharing photos as flirtatious?
forknknife
Banned
Yes, and that's why i said that this game probably does not cross the line but just hints at it (by the example that OP described in his post). Other games will not just stop at that and the issue here is that many people will just be ok with it because it's just a videogame.
User123456
Member
Not only that, but very often what might seem non-consensual is just "playing hard to get". It happens all the time, it's part of the date game. The line between consensual and non-consensual when it comes to flirting is as blurry as it can get. It's really, REALLY not so simple.
That's completely irrelevant in video games, there is no real person that can or can't give consent.
It's about execution when it comes down to that. The key criterion, IMO, comes down to the word 'senseless' and how context justifies 'senselessness'.
Does said work handle problematic topics/content well? More specifically, does it indulge in the problematic stuff? Does it have something to say about the issue(s), or does it provide a new perspective on it/them? Does it contextualise them in a realistic way?
(Of course not everything has to, especially works which are lighthearted or have a lot of levity.)
For instance, that massacre game. What's it called. "Hatred"? IIRC it did critically badly because it didn't have anything new to say and just indulged in senseless behaviour. But plenty of games with violence do not indulge in the senselessness. Some do - and again, that's fine if executed right- instead they contextualise it and make it part of their narrative. That's an important part of Western action games: contextualising the violence. In your example, imagine a game adaptation of American History X where we play a white supremacist. Even if we only played the home drama bits. That would be saying something about white supremacy, and when the player is forced to attack his sister, the violence would be contextualised and have a dramatic purpose.
A big problem I have with Japanese content which is heavily sexualised is that it often is not contextualised at all and it becomes senseless. This is also true of violence in many games. I couldn't get past the openings of several anime and videogames because pointless sexy bullshit happens. (We don't know if this is true of Summer Lesson yet.) Compare that to The Witcher 3 where you can play the entire game without a proper sex scene (just some dream-scene nudity at the opening), and when it does happen, it has hours of context beforehand imbuing the sexiness with justification and meaning. (The sex scenes are executed awfully but that's a whole other thing.)
And it goes both ways wrt violence: Similarly, there have been a few videogames (like Postal) that I couldn't get past the opening of because the violence was so senseless. The problem works both ways.
OP seems to have a problem with Summer Lesson - which I can empathise with - but just doesn't have enough information and is making some leaps. We don't know whether it's relevant. The release of the game will tell whether they succeeded or not.