Support NeoGAF

[GameGavel]

Hey All,

I wanted to come in here and address the RVGS pricing issue. It really all comes down to what gamers want to play on RVGS. For us, gamers ourselves, we want RVGS to have the ability to play all these incredible larger Retro inspired titles that are hitting the market these days, and will continue to hit the market for years and years to come -- on cartridges. We also want to see what developers can do to create their own custom effects utilizing the FPGA/Arm combo we are supplying. This chipset will give them unlimited potential to do things we've never seen before in a game.

If all you want to do is play games up to a limited file size, like 50 MB for example (tbd), and do not care about the cool things developers will inevitably be doing with the very large and capable FPGA / Processor chipset then we can have a console option for that under $300.

BUT, if you do care and understand the benefits of having the first ever FPGA enabled console that will also have the ability to play these larger retro games then we can have an option for that at a higher cost.

Is $100-$150 less really worth it to limit the size of the games you want to play and is it also worth it to eliminate the games that will be created using the FPGA/Arm of our console? In the short term it may seem like a lot of money, but in the long term, we will all be shooting ourselves if we cheapen this console up.

Even though we are calling this RETRO VGS, there is nothing RETRO about the hardware. It's a NEW, modern day system, with the capability to play many of the same games that will only be available digitally on the systems from Msoft, Sony and Nintendo.

Look at the Mist and FPGA Arcade Boards. These are FPGA only and basically bare boards with no contollers, no pack-in game, limited output options and significantly more limited in what they can do and they are $250-$300 alone. You aren't going to see any modern day games running on those. We have created a console with so much more potential than those and at a much more competitive price.

RVGS may not be for everyone's checkbook, but for those gamers who want to play the latest and greatest retro style games coming from some incredible design teams and play these games on long lasting cartridges then this will be a choice packed with long term value.

We are still addressing the cart storage issues. Masked ROMS might still be a viable option but might not be an option for the larger of the retro games on the market, so we are continuing to look at our options but we are limited by today's technology which seems to all be going more disposable. This is something we can't control. I can only tell you we will provide the best option for game retention that is available today at an affordable price.

We have a few other ways we will be structuring the Kickstarter campaign to benefit the founding backers and make it worth while so please stay positive until the campaign goes live and you have all the information.

I can tell you we will have a minimum goal in the $2.5-$3MM range which will reflect about 7,000 backers minimum. This is a minimum quantity we have guaranteed our initial batch of game developers in this campaign period. We will then build on that the balance of a year until the consoles ship mid 2016. Keep in mind we aren't an existing company with other sources of income. We are not only Kickstarting a product but our company as well. And we don't have the luxury of taking a loss on RVGS out of the gates.

To address those wondering who would make games for a console like this. The one thing I can tell you is developers are coming in droves excited about the potential of having their games preserved on cartridges. Most have said it's a dream to have this and something they never thought they would have had the opportunity to do. Dev's are in line waiting to learn how to make and bring their games to RVGS. Getting an abundance of quality games on this will not be a problem. We will carefully make sure to not saturate the market and keep the ratio of games to the # of users in check.

This is going to be a very trick piece of hardware that will do some amazing things and play some amazing games for a very long time. We can guarantee you all that. If you are a gamer that could care less about owning a physical cartridge of some of your favorite modern day games, in lieu of the limited life of a digital version than so be it. Dollar for dollar we feel RETRO gamers will get more value with RVGS than any other modern day console.



- Mike Kennedy

 

[Bar81]

Instead of making a bunch of vague promises, I hope you have actual developers already on board at the time of the KS and showing off the magical things you're referencing. Otherwise, your ship is already sunk.

 

[GameGavel]

Instead of making a bunch of vague promises, I hope you have actual developers already on board at the time of the KS and showing off the magical things you're referencing. Otherwise, your ship is already sunk.

Just like every console in history, there is a learning curve for devs. They will learn how to exploit the FPGA/ARM combo and make some incredible games throughout the life of RVGS. Think of this FPGA/ARM combo as a way for devs to create their own custom effects, like the Super FX chip on the SNES and expansion pack on the N64. It's like that but with infinitely more built in capability.

Please don't hold us to standards that have never applied to a fledgling console.

- Mike

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

Just like every console in history, there is a learning curve for devs. They will learn how to exploit the FPGA/ARM combo and make some incredible games throughout the life of RVGS. Think of this FPGA/ARM combo as a way for devs to create their own custom effects, like the Super FX chip on the SNES and expansion pack on the N64. It's like that but with infinitely more built in capability.

Please don't hold us to standards that have never applied to a fledgling console.

- Mike

Honestly I just like people trying new things. We don't want all consoles following one "successful" trajectory. There are a bunch of great ideas just waiting to find success and I really wish you all the best in finding that! I'm in!

 

[pizzapizza64]

Just wanted to post my support for what you're doing, Mike. Is there any chance you'd want to come on my podcast about digital writing and talk about the Retro magazine and console?

 

[outunderthestars]

Not going to lie, the price takes a bit of the wind out of the sails. I wish you luck, but it is hard for me to justify spending that kind of money just so I can play games on carts again.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Thanks for clearing all that up, Mike.

How successful the Kickstarter is will IMO answer a lot of questions as to whether this console will even launch or how popular it will be. Even so, I hope this does better than the OUYA, which died pretty fast after an incredibly successful Kickstarter.

 

[Tempy]

Getting enthusiasts on board is not a problem. But I'm not sure there are over 7000 of them, so you'd need to cater to more "casual" audiences without compromising your original vision. Somehow.

Might help if you offer some very expensive tiers which some rich retro fans (eg. Notch) can go for to offset a lower price tag on the basic tiers.

Dinners, Skype chats, signed carts, custom gold-plated consoles, etc.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I thought this was going to go badly when I expected Ouya pricing, but $300-$400/piece? This is going to be a bomb of epic proportions. And getting $2.5 million when the minimum to get the system is at least $300 would require the Kickstarter to be more successful than the Ouya Kickstarter (the vast majority of their funds were from $1-$140 pledges) which is going to be nigh impossible after everyone has seen how bad Ouya ended up.

Even if this funds, I don't see the point when a similar amount of money will get you a PS4 or XBO which is drastically more powerful, has a much larger install base, a ton more games, the option of digital distribution, and a much better controller. And if you're an indie, you can still do physical releases of your games (and chances are the cost/game is much less on the PS4 than it would be here).

 

[Dreamwriter]

No, that's not how you do Kickstarters.

Volgarr, for example, allowed people to pledge 10$ for an initially 10$ game. You pledged more, you got more stuff (merch, I guess). In fact some people are starting to consider KS prices lower than initial ones for general consumer, as a means of partially compensating the fact that regular investor would receive a profit while KS user won't. Doing it the other way around is absolutely crazy.

You obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. Did you know, many projects you don't have the end product as a pledge reward at all? A Kickstarter is *not* a preorder, you are not purchasing anything when you pledge, and the cost of the extra Merch stuff from pledging higher is in no way worth the money you are spending. Example, most Kickstarters offering t-shirt rewards don't offer them for less than a $100 pledge. And you don't even have to choose a reward if you don't want to, and they almost always offer pledge levels below the cost of the end product, where you don't get the end product. And you can pledge more than the reward level you choose, too, to kick in some extra money.

The entire point of a Kickstarter is to give enough money to a creative person or group so they have the ability to bring their product to market, so you can then have the ability to get one. If you are using it expecting to always get good deals, you are doing it wrong.

 

[dancrane212]

Even though we are calling this RETRO VGS, there is nothing RETRO about the hardware. It's a NEW, modern day system, with the capability to play many of the same games that will only be available digitally on the systems from Msoft, Sony and Nintendo.

I have to ask how important it is to make the RVGS able to play, technically speaking, the bigger titles I've heard you mention in the lead-up to the Kickstarter. On the newer consoles there has been a resurgence of smaller titles releasing on disc with Mighty No. 9, Bloodstained, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Yooka-Laylee and others all having physical releases planned if not announced. There are plenty of games that end up being 100% digital that seem, a least to me, to require a significantly smaller resources to run and these usually end up being ones least likely to get a physical release - the kind of games that when a new generation rolls over will still be going for that older style look.

And if you're an indie, you can still do physical releases of your games (and chances are the cost/game is much less on the PS4 than it would be here).

A little off-topic but just going to say how great it would be to have a physical Vita/PS4/whatever release for CSH...though I'm sure you know that!

 

[GameGavel]

We will surely be taking care of our founding backers through low cost exclusives, stretch goal credit's toward future game purchases and even kicking around the possibility of issuing all backers a lifetime 5-10% discount on games. All consoles and carts purchased through Kickstarter will be exclusive in some way adding future value to these sold on KS vs. post KS retail units.

You can't compare RVGS to OUYA. If you do you just aren't getting it. Look where OUYA has ended. It was an Android to TV console, a model others have tried and it doesn't work because there aren't many gamers who want to play cheap mobile games on their big screen TV's. That is also compounded with a less than stellar network interface which essentially bricked my OUYA and others that I know. Their controller didn't function mechanically and was bogged down with lag. RVGS is going in the complete opposite direction of an Android device, and for the better!

RVGS is a modern day console to play new retro style console style games on your TV. It's purpose it not to play $.99 and Free to play mobile games on your TV. And they sold 70K units so for us to expect to sell 7,000+ is reasonable. Only time will tell and it will be exciting to watch whether you like what we are doing or not.

- Mike

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

To reiterate what Black Falcon said and what was said in the panel, the console will cost "north of $300" and in the follow up interview he says "$300 to $400."

I applaud them for being honest, but this is what a lot of people feared and what some critics expected. It's a huge issue because before it was just a cheap hobby system "for collectors" but one thing I can tell you is that collectors love getting a good deal above all else and this seems to be moving away from that. It also wasn't meant to compete with current gen consoles and yes, I get it, they're still not going toe-to-toe with the big three but for $300+ I don't care if you're selling an Etch-a-Sketch, consumers are going to compare you to current gen consoles because that's what they can get instead.

This console is now in serious need of cost cutting. They try to rationalize this with the idea that it will get cheaper the more they sell and Kickstarter backers will just be expected to have to pay more, but that's outrageous. You back the product and in exchange for risking your money, you are "rewarded" with getting the product first and getting a good deal on it. It's worth noting that a lot of consoles these days sell at a loss initially because they want their price to create an install base early on and they'll make up the difference in game sales- give away the razor and sell the blades.

That's....a bit too much I feel. $200, maybe $250 would have been the perfect price point, especially with a pack-in. I will say I was impressed by the vid they put on Facebook, especially the last game they showed there (which maybe should be the pack-in, if they go that route), but at such a price point I get the feeling they may be selling to only the most hardcore of retro gamers.

Don't get me wrong; I DO think there's a market for an enthusiast gaming system that's focused purely on games. A sort of system that would be out today if the industry went more in the direction Nintendo and Sega were wanting to take it, versus where Sony and Microsoft have led things, if you will.

Granted the size of that market is going to be smaller than what the PS4 or XBO can garner, so there's more of an impetus to make profit off of the hardware (maybe that's something some people don't quite understand?). But there has to be a balance, and I'm not sure if the most hardcore of the retro/enthusiast scene is big enough to support a system aimed at them priced at $350/$400, AND the games themselves getting enough sales from just them to warrant showing up on the console...

...at least for the long term.

I think that for the short term, they can justify that price if they market and package the whole product and vision the right way. Make it feel like a legitimate new full-blown enthusiast system, from the hardware and games all the way down to packaging and marketing reminiscent of the old times before the PS2 era got underway, but with modern sensibilities thrown in, and they can definitely appeal to the higher tier of the enthusiast/retro scene.

And over time, once the library starts building and the high tier is being tapped out, do price reductions to reach the others out there who'd buy at a lower cost. That doesn't prevent them from making a lower-cost version to sell alongside the "flagship" model, though, which they may want to consider doing if they can handle that sort of load.

 

[Wereroku]

I thought this was going to go badly when I expected Ouya pricing, but $300-$400/piece? This is going to be a bomb of epic proportions. And getting $2.5 million when the minimum to get the system is at least $300 would require the Kickstarter to be more successful than the Ouya Kickstarter (the vast majority of their funds were from $1-$140 pledges) which is going to be nigh impossible after everyone has seen how bad Ouya ended up.

Even if this funds, I don't see the point when a similar amount of money will get you a PS4 or XBO which is drastically more powerful, has a much larger install base, a ton more games, the option of digital distribution, and a much better controller. And if you're an indie, you can still do physical releases of your games (and chances are the cost/game is much less on the PS4 than it would be here).

The pricing is a bummer and the idea that anything I buy will be dead in 20yrs is pretty terrible as well. There is no way the carts will hold their value when they have a definite time span.

We will surely be taking care of our founding backers through low cost exclusives, stretch goal credit's toward future game purchases and even kicking around the possibility of issuing all backers a lifetime 5-10% discount on games. All consoles and carts purchased through Kickstarter will be exclusive in some way adding future value to these sold on KS vs. post KS retail units.

You can't compare RVGS to OUYA. If you do you just aren't getting it. Look where OUYA has ended. It was an Android to TV console, a model others have tried and it doesn't work because there aren't many gamers who want to play cheap mobile games on their big screen TV's. That is also compounded with a less than stellar network interface which essentially bricked my OUYA and others that I know. Their controller didn't function mechanically and was bogged down with lag. RVGS is going in the complete opposite direction of an Android device, and for the better!

RVGS is a modern day console to play new retro style console style games on your TV. It's purpose it not to play $.99 and Free to play mobile games on your TV. And they sold 70K units so for us to expect to sell 7,000+ is reasonable. Only time will tell and it will be exciting to watch whether you like what we are doing or not.

- Mike

That jump from $99 to $350-$400 is big and will make casual consumers ignore you. I really like the concept but unfortunately this is a super niche market that is actually somewhat price averse. I mean hell instead of buying this I could get Panzer Dragoon Saga play through it and get my $350 back or maybe even get more. Without product available immediately we have to assume that investment will lead to something and unfortunately you aren't a Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. If you make the kickstarter but can't get devs on board there is a decent chance this would be a paper weight with maybe 2 or 3 games on it.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

The cost itself doesn't bother me as much as the idea that the console might be cheaper for non-kickstarters. I've never heard such a thing before, that's fucking crazy. I can probably stomach it, though, if the life-span of the carts are figured out. I am absolutely out if the memory on the carts is projected to only be 20 years. That is an absolute deal breaker for me.

 

[Spades]

No chance this succeeds at over $300. I'm out, anyway. Shame, it was a neat concept.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

If you make the kickstarter but can't get devs on board there is a decent chance this would be a paper weight with maybe 2 or 3 games on it.

I think they said there is going to be around 12-15 games ready for launch.

I really don't like the name of this console. Calling it "retro" is misleading and makes it even more niche than it is. Mike has even said it's not a retro console, so calling it that is just odd. Yes I understand the word "Retro" is the brand and VGS is a throwback to Atari. I just personally am not digging it.

A good name is important. Brand is huge. The RVGS team needs to go all in on this if this console is going to succeed. Market the console, new games, etc. Send this thing to gaming outlets (IGN, GameSpot, etc.) and see if they will review it and games for it. Exclusives are also a must, one of which needs to be the "killer app".

 

[ElectricThunder]

The last time anybody "tried" to go to the edge of the horizon and bring back wondrous abyssal treasures from an alternate timeline where the past went a different route utilizing FPGA's "was" some years back with the Natami---powered by hopes and the rabidly ravenous Amiga community dreaming big. http://www.natami.net/

Comparing RETRO VGS to...that...leaves the VGS looking to be in a far better place to actually make it into the world beyond the hands of a slim few prototypes even if it has differing aims and means intentioned to an end---though it is unmistakably the case that you lot have a hard road ahead in terms of absolute costs and funding targets going forward. I mean, just about the only way you could've made it more awesome/harder on yourselves would've been to pair it with a conjuring of dual-wielded high tech trackballs to complete the timeline of 80s/90's gone aground in fantastical lands that Should've Been. That or if you could somehow leverage it at/tap into the FM/SiD/etc music scene with outstandingly robust, dongle-less tools and workflow as it isn't like they aren't generally worse off spending more money otherwise and/or feeding wheelbarrows of cash into the gaping maw that is modular addiction.

If I had to pick a means to make the dev environ/games more affordable for absolute posterity, the only thing that comes to mind would be something of a more sophisticated virtualized/proper simulated time capsule sub-portal akin to Cloanto's Forever line for the Amiga and C64---hell of a lot of software work even if you folks are designing the hardware outright for the most part, but the only(?) way to take a bite out of that steep hardware end and fear of things breaking over time especially on the transient storage trend.

 

[Wereroku]

I think they said there is going to be around 12-15 games ready for launch.

I really don't like the name of this console. Calling it "retro" is misleading and makes it even more niche than it is. Mike has even said it's not a retro console, so calling it that is just odd. Yes I understand the word "Retro" is the brand and VGS is a throwback to Atari. I just personally am not digging it.

A good name is important. Brand is huge. The RVGS team needs to go all in on this if this console is going to succeed. Market the console, new games, etc. Send this thing to gaming outlets (IGN, GameSpot, etc.) and see if they will review it and games for it. Exclusives are also a must, one of which needs to be the "killer app".

Just like every console in history, there is a learning curve for devs. They will learn how to exploit the FPGA/ARM combo and make some incredible games throughout the life of RVGS. Think of this FPGA/ARM combo as a way for devs to create their own custom effects, like the Super FX chip on the SNES and expansion pack on the N64. It's like that but with infinitely more built in capability.

Please don't hold us to standards that have never applied to a fledgling console.

- Mike

This gave me the impression that there isn't a great deal of commitment yet.

 

[Marty Chinn]

You obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. Did you know, many projects you don't have the end product as a pledge reward at all? A Kickstarter is *not* a preorder, you are not purchasing anything when you pledge, and the cost of the extra Merch stuff from pledging higher is in no way worth the money you are spending. Example, most Kickstarters offering t-shirt rewards don't offer them for less than a $100 pledge. And you don't even have to choose a reward if you don't want to, and they almost always offer pledge levels below the cost of the end product, where you don't get the end product. And you can pledge more than the reward level you choose, too, to kick in some extra money.

The entire point of a Kickstarter is to give enough money to a creative person or group so they have the ability to bring their product to market, so you can then have the ability to get one. If you are using it expecting to always get good deals, you are doing it wrong.

Sorry but you're wrong even if you're technically right. The expectations of what a Kickstarter is when you're Kickstarting a product, the base pledge to get the product is either the normal price or a reduced Kickstarter price. Now the pledges go up based off exclusive perks, but the base product is never more expensive than when it sells to the general public.

 

[Dreamwriter]

This gave me the impression that there isn't a great deal of commitment yet.

In the video they said something like 10-12 games available at the Kickstarter, and then more by launch (how many more depends on how the Kickstarter goes). That quote you mentioned was responding to someone who said that launch games should be taking full advantage of all that newly announced power the system provides.

 

[dickroach]

You can compare the RetroVGS to the Ouya because it's a video game system being Kickstarted. that gives plenty of room for comparison.

Put the Kickstarter up already and see if there's $2,500,000 worth of interest out there. I really don't think there's going to be.

Ouya knew their numbers, knew what customers would pay, and their expectations were exceeded by leaps and bounds: over $8,000,000. What they couldn't keep up on was developers wanting to produce games for their system; and now the Ouya is a little crappy piece of plastic.
Like, even if the VGS did get funded, I find it hard to believe that developers of these new ~16-bit games (which do look pretty cool btw) would want to spend more money to sell less games on VGS carts, rather than just putting their games on steam/xbl/psn and having an immediate audience of tens of millions.

With all that said, if the kid down the street has a Retro VGS cuz his parents are rich, I'll totally invite him to my birthday party in hope of getting invited over to play some VGS.

 

[Bar81]

That quote you mentioned was responding to someone who said that launch games should be taking full advantage of all that newly announced power the system provides.

Actually, he was trying to justify the absurd pricetag by saying how incredible the effects would be and when I called him on it he sidestepped the issue by saying that we should just trust him.

 

[GameGavel]

You can compare the RetroVGS to the Ouya because it's a video game system being Kickstarted. that gives plenty of room for comparison.

Put the Kickstarter up already and see if there's $2,500,000 worth of interest out there. I really don't think there's going to be.

Ouya knew their numbers, knew what customers would pay, and their expectations were exceeded by leaps and bounds: over $8,000,000. What they couldn't keep up on was developers wanting to produce games for their system; and now the Ouya is a little crappy piece of plastic.
Like, even if the VGS did get funded, I find it hard to believe that developers of these new ~16-bit games (which do look pretty cool btw) would want to spend more money to sell less games on VGS carts, rather than just putting their games on steam/xbl/psn and having an immediate audience of tens of millions.

With all that said, if the kid down the street has a Retro VGS cuz his parents are rich, I'll totally invite him to my birthday party in hope of getting invited over to play some VGS.

Everyone that backed the OUYA are going to lose every penny they invested in the hardware and the games, myself included. Simple as that. And there really is not enough runway for to compare us to OUYA or Game Stick. Those are really the only two "consoles" (using that word very, very loosely) that have been Kickstarted and neither have panned out. A venture with the size and scope of RVGS has never been Kickstarted.

 

[Tempy]

Like, even if the VGS did get funded, I find it hard to believe that developers of these new ~16-bit games (which do look pretty cool btw) would want to spend more money to sell less games on VGS carts, rather than just putting their games on steam/xbl/psn and having an immediate audience of tens of millions.

Why not both?

Pier Solar for example released on Steam and such, and because the devs love Sega hardware it's also on Genesis and Dreamcast.

 

[Tempy]

Everyone that backed the OUYA are going to lose every penny they invested in the hardware and the games, myself included. Simple as that. And there really is not enough runway for to compare us to OUYA or Game Stick. Those are really the only two "consoles" (using that word very, very loosely) that have been Kickstarted and neither have panned out. A venture with the size and scope of RVGS has never been Kickstarted.

Don't forget the GCW Zero, though it did have its issues, it's a pretty neat machine.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Don't forget the GCW Zero, though it did have its issues, it's a pretty neat machine.

A lot of people feel burned on the GCW Zero.

 

[NoFaceNico]

You obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. Did you know, many projects you don't have the end product as a pledge reward at all? A Kickstarter is *not* a preorder, you are not purchasing anything when you pledge, and the cost of the extra Merch stuff from pledging higher is in no way worth the money you are spending. Example, most Kickstarters offering t-shirt rewards don't offer them for less than a $100 pledge. And you don't even have to choose a reward if you don't want to, and they almost always offer pledge levels below the cost of the end product, where you don't get the end product. And you can pledge more than the reward level you choose, too, to kick in some extra money.

No, you obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. A project where you don't get the end product as a pledge reward?! I've never heard of such a thing, and especially not for gaming hardware aside from the the cybermatrix 100 tu01 (seriously, everyone check that out, it's hilarious). We need to see some of your examples.

The entire point of a Kickstarter is to give enough money to a creative person or group so they have the ability to bring their product to market, so you can then have the ability to get one. If you are using it expecting to always get good deals, you are doing it wrong.

Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so. If you think the point of Kickstarter is to blindly throw money at something then you don't know how consumers think, which this project seems to already have a problem with unto itself. I'll proudly confess that I didn't give one cent to the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter until the day they made a PS4 physical copy tier. It's my money, why would I throw it at a project when they can't give me what I want? Yes, Kickstarter is there to make a creator's dream come true but you're doing a disservice to any campaign when you completely ignore the backer side of the equation and see them as just a blank check.

You can't compare RVGS to OUYA. If you do you just aren't getting it.
...
And they sold 70K units so for us to expect to sell 7,000+ is reasonable. Only time will tell and it will be exciting to watch whether you like what we are doing or not.

- Mike

You just said we can't compare the RVGS to OUYA, then you use OUYA to gauge your expected sales. If you're looking at OUYA for any sort of inspiration then you really need to reorient yourself. It was a marketing juggernaut and no one has been able to replicate it because backers are a lot wiser now and are much more suspicious of the pie-in-the-sky claims made by project creators.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Ouya knew their numbers, knew what customers would pay, and their expectations were exceeded by leaps and bounds: over $8,000,000. What they couldn't keep up on was developers wanting to produce games for their system; and now the Ouya is a little crappy piece of plastic.

That's not quite correct - OUYA got a ton of developers making games, too many in fact. The system failed not from lack of development interest but from lack of communication, poor quality controllers, network issues, slow/incomplete OS, lack of quality control in the games, and a general lack of focus.

 

[Slermy]

I agree that $300+ is a bit steep, and perhaps out of my range.

That being said, thanks for providing more info for us in this thread Mike. I'm still eager to see where this goes. I like the idea behind everything and would love for it to be successful.

 

[ultrazilla]

Mike,

Thank you for coming in here and engaging with us. I love the idea but I really think you let feature creep take over.

Here's my post I just put up on your RetroVGS Facebook.

Mike, you launch the Kickstarter with a minimum $300 buy in, it's DOA. Somewhere along the line, you forgot you wanted a true retro system. Putting all sorts of different tech in the system to give us potential for exciting new games is NOT RETRO. Retro games are more basic graphics with simpler play mechanics. I think you ran into feature creep and priced yourself out of the game before it started. You should have stuck with a range of Atari 2600-Super NES/Sega Genesis 16 bit style games. Price the system between $150-$200 and see how it did. You can always bring out another console/kickstarter for a more "advanced" Retro system with bells and whistles. I'm afraid that once this launches and inevitably fails, nobody will give you another shot should you try a different tactic via Kickstarter.

Initial stories is that the console would be "retro" and feature games anywhere from Atari 2600 style graphics up to 16 bit style graphics. That's a nice range of "retro" right there as you get the massive 8 bit era style in there as well. And I know you already addressed the price point you mentioned at the time which was indeed cheaper. This is why I got on board.

To hear it's now grown to what is sounding like a $350 system with a few games, I really do think you've lost your way.

I support your original vision for the system. Not the bloated system you have now.

Before you launch this Kickstarter, please, please sit down and think about this.

Give us what you originally talked about console and price wise. If that's successful, you will then have the opportunity to bring out a more advanced "retro" console as you'll be proven that you can deliver a system to fans via Kickstarter.

If you plan on going through with this Kickstarter, it's gonna be sad to watch(I don't think it will reach funding). I've been a very big vocal supporter of the system but this took a turn I honestly didn't see coming(huge price increase) and tech really not needed(for at least this iteration of console).

-Rob

 

[emb]

Not a fan of the multiple hardware variations... diminishes some of the retro simplicity that made me like the RVGS idea.

Hearing how much this project will need to be funded (the 2.5 m goal), I have to say I have my doubts. Hoping for the best. Personally, I probably won't back at the 300+ level. Any time I back a Kickstarter, I have to be ok with the possibility of getting know return (since it's investment in a project-in-progress). The extra hundred bucks or so kinda pushes past that range. And I wouldn't consider owning a system that can't play every RVGS game, I don't see where that would be appealing. At that point I'd rather see 2 totally separate consoles.

All this is just kinda going to show why this is a difficult vision to realize. It won't be cheap, won't be easy. I guess if so, someone would have already done it. Best of luck to Mike and the others involved in making it happen.

 

[goldenpp72]

Yeah as someone who is a hardcore collector and buys Jaguar games that didn't even release on the system when it was alive, I find it hard to get excited by this system. Games that only last 20 years, expensive, with only small amounts of support doesn't really seem like a product to die for.

 

[Tempy]

No, you obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. A project where you don't get the end product as a pledge reward?! I've never heard of such a thing, and especially not for gaming hardware aside from the the cybermatrix 100 tu01 (seriously, everyone check that out, it's hilarious). We need to see some of your examples.

Errr...there are a gazillion kickstarters with a $1 pledge tier where you don't get a product at all. And you can even give more money than that to that tier. It's basically "I like what you're doing, let me help you with this donation."

There's also stuff where you help out a restaurant or some sort and there's no specific "product" they're making. There might be small rewards, but you're not really buying a product.

 

[ultrazilla]

Three hardware configurations:

Each obviously with different price points/tiers.

One system capable of Atari 2600 style graphics up to 16 bit style graphics. $150-$200

One system capable of 32 bit style graphics(Neo Geo, Saturn) 64 bit(Nintendo 64) and early PS1 type visuals(early 3D) $200-$250

One system capable of Atari 2600-PS1 type visuals. $300+

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Three hardware configurations:

Each obviously with different price points/tiers.

One system capable of Atari 2600 style graphics up to 16 bit style graphics. $150-$200

One system capable of 32 bit style graphics(Neo Geo, Saturn) 64 bit(Nintendo 64) and early PS1 type visuals(early 3D) $200-$250

One system capable of Atari 2600-PS1 type visuals. $300+

You are out of your fucking mind if you think this would be a good idea.

 

[NoFaceNico]

Errr...there are a gazillion kickstarters with a $1 pledge tier where you don't get a product at all. And you can even give more money than that to that tier. It's basically "I like what you're doing, let me help you with this donation."

There's also stuff where you help out a restaurant or some sort and there's no specific "product" they're making. There might be small rewards, but you're not really buying a product.

Of course there are $1 Kickstarters for conventions, charities and art. Can you please show me one where they were trying to make a gaming console? If not then you're just cherry picking examples. No, it's not comparable to OUYA! Don't even try to make that comparison! But let me tell you what it is comparable to... potato salad!!

 

[ultrazilla]

I didn't realize that one of the main selling points for the system will only be in a $400 configuration. If they do a "cheaper" model, it won't include the FPGA. Man.

Taken from the RetroVGS Facebook page:

Jörgen Larsson Have i understood this correctly. The console could end up costing $450? You mention you can do a less impressive console for less than 300, then mention is it really worth saving 100-150? Meaning upwards to $450 for FPGA/Arm version?
Like · Reply · 1 · 3 hrs

RETRO VGS Hi Jorgen, IF we decide to have two systems, and it's still a big "If" we would have a non-FPGA enabled version at $299 and a full blown FPGA version at $399. We are still working with suppliers to try and lower the parts costs somewhat so it's still a moving target. Please keep in mind we are having to cost this out based on very low quantities. If we knew in advance we were going to sell 100,000 of these we could get more discounts from our suppliers. We will have some economies of scale if we surpass our initial, 7,000 backer goal and will have credits issued back to backers toward future purchases to offset these discounsts if we hit higher #'s. All of this info will be revealed in the Kickstarter campagin. Trust that we will give backers the best all around deal in the end.

$400 is nuts. Sorry Mike.

 

[Tempy]

Of course there are $1 Kickstarters for conventions, charities and art. Can you please show me one where they were trying to make a gaming console? If not then you're just cherry picking examples. No, it's not comparable to OUYA! Don't even try to make that comparison! But let me tell you what it is comparable to... potato salad!!

Moving goalposts already? I'm just responding to your silly claim.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

More than one skew and this thing is DOA. One skew at that price and limited life carts and the kickstarter will succeed and the console will die later.

 

[Peltz]

Mike,

I respect what you're trying to do. But please refrain from the multiple SKU approach.

You really have to lower the price of this thing. And yes, if that means compromising what games can be supported, then so be it.

You've completely lost me as a consumer. But as a gamer I hope you succeed. Best of luck.

Is $100-$150 less really worth it to limit the size of the games you want to play and is it also worth it to eliminate the games that will be created using the FPGA/Arm of our console?

Yes, yes it is.

-Peltz

 

[Bboy AJ]

Mike, how much of your own personal funds have you invested into this? Before looking for money on KS, asking backers to feel financial pain without any reward? Why don't you get a loan or an investor who will take a percentage of your profits?

 

[NoFaceNico]

Moving goalposts already? I'm just responding to your silly claim.

I think you like the sound of the "moving the goalposts" retort but you don't understand what it actually means. If you did, you'd realize that you had committed that fallacy, not me.

Let's review the posts:

You obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. Did you know, many projects you don't have the end product as a pledge reward at all? A Kickstarter is *not* a preorder, you are not purchasing anything when you pledge, and the cost of the extra Merch stuff from pledging higher is in no way worth the money you are spending. Example, most Kickstarters offering t-shirt rewards don't offer them for less than a $100 pledge. And you don't even have to choose a reward if you don't want to, and they almost always offer pledge levels below the cost of the end product, where you don't get the end product. And you can pledge more than the reward level you choose, too, to kick in some extra money.

The guy claims that "many projects" don't have the end product in the reward tiers and "most Kickstarters" selling t-shirts sell them for more than $100. Which is an argument so ridiculous that I'm starting to wonder if it was a troll post. So I called bullshit on that and asked to see some examples. This is important, do you see the burden of proof/"goal post" here? I'm asking for proof showing that many Kickstarters don't have the end product as a reward and most t-shirt rewards are priced over $100. On a side note, It's worth noting that there hasn't been a single example provided yet aside from the "silly" one that I did, which admittedly is silly but not nearly as silly as the argument I'm trying to disprove.

No, you obviously don't know much about Kickstarters. A project where you don't get the end product as a pledge reward?! I've never heard of such a thing, and especially not for gaming hardware aside from the the cybermatrix 100 tu01 (seriously, everyone check that out, it's hilarious). We need to see some of your examples.

Then you tell me that there are a gazillion examples of Kickstarters where you don't get a product at all. So you're trying to counter with examples of a completely different type of Kickstarter than what we're arguing about. You have "moved the goalpost" to now include examples of Kickstarters that offer no rewards.

Errr...there are a gazillion kickstarters with a $1 pledge tier where you don't get a product at all. And you can even give more money than that to that tier. It's basically "I like what you're doing, let me help you with this donation."

There's also stuff where you help out a restaurant or some sort and there's no specific "product" they're making. There might be small rewards, but you're not really buying a product.

So I point out the obvious and try to steer it back on course.

Of course there are $1 Kickstarters for conventions, charities and art. Can you please show me one where they were trying to make a gaming console? If not then you're just cherry picking examples. No, it's not comparable to OUYA! Don't even try to make that comparison! But let me tell you what it is comparable to... potato salad!!

Moving goalposts already? I'm just responding to your silly claim.

Yeah, I'm the one with the silly claim and moving goalposts. Good one. With those thinking skills I'm sure you're their target market.

 

[Krejlooc]

Mike, how much of your own personal funds have you invested into this? Before looking for money on KS, asking backers to feel financial pain without any reward? Why don't you get a loan or an investor who will take a percentage of your profits?

I would love to meet the investor who would be willing to put up money for this. Considering the type of product he's pitching, any sort of angel investor is a pipedream - where is the profit in this? Are they going to take equity in a niche product?

You have to present a business plan to get a loan. I'm not sure these guys have a viable one. Consider this - in a thread dedicated to their product, on an enthusiast gaming forum, they are catching shade from the people they are asking a mere $300 from. How much more successful do you think they'd be asking an investor or a bank for $2.5 million?

 

[Bboy AJ]

I would love to meet the investor who would be willing to put up money for this. Considering the type of product he's pitching, any sort of angel investor is a pipedream - where is the profit in this? Are they going to take equity in a niche product?

You have to present a business plan to get a loan. I'm not sure these guys have a viable one. Consider this - in a thread dedicated to their product, on an enthusiast gaming forum, they are catching shade from the people they are asking a mere $300 from. How much more successful do you think they'd be asking an investor or a bank for $2.5 million?

People like Mike think KS is free money and it makes me sick. I can't wait for KS to die and be replaced by something that gives backers equity in their business. Then let's see how quick people are to trot out any ol' garbage on there. As is, there's zero risk by going to KS. And it shows by how much thought some people put into their business plan on KS.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but it definitely feels like this project is suffering from massive scope creep.

At $399, you are now indirectly competeing with the XBO and PS4. What once started out as a Atari 2600-16 bit era console has ballooned into something much more. I think most people were expecting this to be right in the $199 range, $250 tops.

I am fine with the $399 price, but you better bring out the big guns now. Massive 3D exclusives, insane marketing, etc.

If you can bring PS1 era games to this I'm 100% on board. Something like Medievil, FFVII, Loaded, etc. These types of games would justify a $399 price tag.

 

[Krejlooc]

People like Mike think KS is free money and it makes me sick. I can't wait for KS to die and be replaced by something that gives backers equity in their business. Then let's see how quick people are to trot out any ol' garbage on there.

what you are asking for already exists.

And we'd just be going back to the same system where creators are beholden to investors. Which I don't like.

 

[Tempy]

Then you tell me that there are a gazillion examples of Kickstarters where you don't get a product at all. So you're trying to counter with examples of a completely different type of Kickstarter than what we're arguing about. You have "moved the goalpost" to now include examples of Kickstarters that offer no rewards.

What, no. I said there are many kickstarters with pledge tiers without reward. Not that NONE of their pledge tiers have any reward!

Just check any random kickstarter. You'll notice a lot of them have their first tier as a "thank you only" type of tier.

 

[Peltz]

People like Mike think KS is free money and it makes me sick. I can't wait for KS to die and be replaced by something that gives backers equity in their business. Then let's see how quick people are to trot out any ol' garbage on there. As is, there's zero risk by going to KS. And it shows by how much thought some people put into their business plan on KS.

Lol. I'm pretty sure that Mike would gladly sell you a substantial equity stake if you fronted $2.5 million. Kickstarter isn't stopping you from doing so.

Raising money through preorders in the form of kickstarter is far from unethical. What are you, as a backer really risking?

What alternative sounds realistic to you? $300 for ownership in a privately held company? Sure that sounds reasonable

Spoiler

/s

 

[McBradders]

All we need now is a giant enemy crab and I think we're done here.