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[The Technomancer]

Or maybe it's because people want to bridge the ever-widening gap between left and right as a nice gesture calling out violence and acknowledging that we're all Americans here? Maybe for some it's for their own sense of self-worth, but the message it sends is much more valuable than that.

Saying something like "they'll be fine, they have insurance" doesn't come across as empathetic, it comes across as insensitive and furthering the "us vs them" mentality that this election cycle has perpetuated.

I'm not sure I believe that gap can be bridged and increasingly I find myself unable to argue with those who say "why bother" trying to bridge the gap with people who at worst literally want them dead and are complicit in violence against them and at best are merely apathetic to systemic violence. What, exactly, do we want to achieve? Who are we trying to bring back into the fold with this?

I hate this. We're barreling towards a future in which writing off and steamrolling the opposition is the most effective path towards consistent progressive change. It terrifies me. But I can't look at the people in opposition and bring myself to say "we need to respect and work with them". The GOP has finally taken its final form as a party of pure hate.

 

[KHarvey16]

If anyone actually believes raising money for this will do anything to steer the GOP away from the course they've been on for a half-century, well, "agree to disagree" is the most civil response I can muster.

That isn't the goal.

 

[Harpuia]

Whether or not they need help is entirely beside the point. A free, democratic election should never be subject to acts like this and an attack on any side is an attack on the fundamental process itself.

Or maybe it's because people want to bridge the ever-widening gap between left and right as a nice gesture calling out violence and acknowledging that we're all Americans here? Maybe for some it's for their own sense of self-worth, but the message it sends is much more valuable than that.

Saying something like "they'll be fine, they have insurance" doesn't come across as empathetic, it comes across as insensitive and furthering the "us vs them" mentality that this election cycle has perpetuated.

To me it's the money aspect of it. And the fact that many people out there would rather/should spend their dollars on another, arguably more needier organization than the second largest party in the US. It's also the thought of helping the GOP, which to many people, just represents the worst of this country in a nutshell.

Though perhaps there is value in showing some solidarity in defending democratic processes. Especially in a climate Trump has been slowly creating, by heavily condoning people to start policing their polling places.

I often think about when it's the right time to start making an attempt to improve the US's current state, and to start actually making change happen. Perhaps this could be a small but steady step in some semblance of the right direction.

 

[rjinaz]

That's quite a straw man.

Empathy is one thing. Actively raising money to help the NC GOP pursue a homophobic, racist, transphobic, misogynistic agenda is quite another.

If anyone actually believes raising money for this will do anything to steer the GOP away from the course they've been on for a half-century, well, "agree to disagree" is the most civil response I can muster.

That's not what's happening.

 

[Father_Brain]

That isn't the goal.

If you agree that the GOP won't hear whatever message this is intended to send... well, what exactly is that message supposed to be and for whose ears?

That's not what's happening.

What else is the rebuilt office going to be used for?

 

[duckroll]

That's quite a straw man.

Empathy is one thing. Actively raising money to help the NC GOP pursue a homophobic, racist, transphobic, misogynistic agenda is quite another.

If anyone actually believes raising money for this will do anything to steer the GOP away from the course they've been on for a half-century, well, "agree to disagree" is the most civil response I can muster.

Actually, you hit the nail on the head. "Agree to disagree" -is- the point here. That is the foundation of democracy and civil discourse. It shouldn't be a war where you want to kill the enemy by all means necessary. But it seems that's what it has become if mentalities like that are rampant. If you cannot put aside politics to lend a hand to the other side with there's an actual physical act of domestic terrorism involved, well then... Race to the bottom I guess?

Is it really a strawman to look at this and see that it is the sort of political environment that should not exist? You can say the GOP started and encouraged this sort of behavior, but if everyone then engages in it, what's the point of even having elections anymore? Just firebomb the bigots and wipe them out. They're a stain against humanity after all, why vote? Kill them. It's a war! That sounds gross right?

 

[The Technomancer]

That's not what's happening.

Even if it is not financial support, it is not a wholesale rejection of the GOP as a party and an institution. Fuck this party. Fuck this party that has control of North Carolina and is engaged in a war on one of our most vulnerable populations. Fuck this party that has put Mike "wants to expand suicide camps" Pence so close to the presidency. Fuck this party that has nominated Donald Trump. They can rot. I'm done being civil. I thought most of us were. They are a cancer. They do not deserve our respect. They do not deserve our support. I did not gloat at this bombing because I'm worried it might spark further violence. But no-one was hurt. It is an act of vandalism, not a natural disaster (like the one NC is actually still recovering from and hey, might have found a use for $13,000)

 

[KHarvey16]

If you agree that the GOP won't hear whatever message this is intended to send... well, what exactly is that message supposed to be and for whom?

The message is that our democracy and the elections that serve to carry out that democracy should never be subject to this kind of nonsense and it won't be tolerated no matter who is targeted.

 

[Hip Hop]

Even if it is not financial support, it is not a wholesale rejection of the GOP as a party and an institution. Fuck this party. Fuck this party that has control of North Carolina and is engaged in a war on one of our most vulnerable populations. Fuck this party that has put Mike "wants to expand suicide camps" Pence so close to the presidency. Fuck this party that has nominated Donald Trump. They can rot. I'm done being civil. I thought most of us were. They are a cancer.

So are you fine with bombing GOP offices?

 

[Crash Station]

A lot of people, quite fairly I feel, raised the point that if people had $13,000 to spare directing it at some of, for example, the trans aid charities in North Carolina might actually save lives instead of rebuilding a building almost certainly covered by insurance.

Is this really much different than any argument about donating to more philanthropic causes over buying luxury items? Just seems like the whole "starving children in Africa" whataboutism to me.

Not to say I disagree that it's more a gesture than completely necessary, but people should use their money however they want.

I'm not sure I believe that gap can be bridged and increasingly I find myself unable to argue with those who say "why bother" trying to bridge the gap with people who at worst literally want them dead and are complicit in violence against them and at best are merely apathetic to systemic violence. What, exactly, do we want to achieve? Who are we trying to bring back into the fold with this?

That's a pretty cynical outlook, but anyway it's not about bringing people back into a fold, it's about showing there should still be goodwill between the parties, which were created in the first place for the same purpose; making the country work rather than alienating the "others". This is what we want democracy to be despite the dismal state of the modern GOP.

 

[Orayn]

Please don't donate money to the fucking GOP because of this. There's a difference between having a stance on political violence and providing material aid to fascism because BOTH SIDES.

 

[Wiseblood]

This is a shitty thing to happen and all but:

Fuck. You.

 

[The Kree]

This is a shitty thing to happen and all but:

Fuck. You.

It's funny because it's what the GOP is really good at doing.

 

[Laevateinn]

People are actually talking about donating money to help rebuild this out of civility? Fuck them. They have plenty of money and the building is most likely insured.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This is a shitty thing to happen and all but:

Fuck. You.

 

[The Technomancer]

That's a pretty cynical outlook, but anyway it's not about bringing people back into a fold, it's about showing there should still be goodwill between the parties, which were created in the first place for the same purpose; making the country work rather than alienating the "others". This is what we want democracy to be despite the dismal state of the modern GOP.

Why should there still be goodwill with this cancerous, toxic rancid waste of a party? What is redeemable about the modern GOP at this point now that they've nominated Trump and Pence? They are a party of hate now. Everyone seems to understand this until all of the sudden something like this happens and then that was just words and the really important part is to extend an olive branch to those hateful people we were so assuredly decrying just days before

It makes a lot of words feel real empty

 

[Ponn]

Please don't donate money to the fucking GOP because of this. There's a difference between having a stance on political violence and providing material aid to fascism because BOTH SIDES.

Team Alucard already donated enough for all of GAF.

 

[Father_Brain]

So are you fine with bombing GOP offices?

Who is saying anything like this?

The message is that our democracy and the elections that serve to carry out that democracy should never be subject to this kind of nonsense and it won't be tolerated no matter who is targeted.

Why is a statement like Hillary's insufficient to send this message? Why does it require actively giving financial support to the GOP?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

So are you fine with bombing GOP offices?

Literally said donate the money to charities instead..😕

Team Alucard already donated enough for all of GAF.

 

[ElFly]

If you think things are so bad that the "good guys" should not be allowed an ounce of empathy for the other side being firebombed and vandalized, and that anyone trying to help in the situation should be condemned as a pariah, then you probably don't think there is any value in the system of democracy or politics anymore. Might as well burn it ALL down, right?

there's a difference between having empathy with the people whose office was firebombed and donating money to a racist political party

dunno why this is so hard for you to understand

 

[KHarvey16]

Why is a statement like Hillary's insufficient to send this message? Why does it require actively giving financial support to the GOP?

It's money to rebuild something that already existed and that should still exist. Words are fine if that's what you want to contribute, but some people would like to restore and help maintain order in another way.

 

[duckroll]

Why is a statement like Hillary's insufficient to send this message? Why does it require actively giving financial support to the GOP?

Because different people have different ways of trying to express their views. Hillary doesn't represent everyone who supports her or her party. It shouldn't be a hivemind. By aggressively guilting people on the same side for how they choose to express goodwill, don't you see that it divides your own allies and drives people who are not militant about politics further away from wanting to engage or support such behavior?

Nothing is "required", that's why it is charity. This is really the ugliest US election I've ever seen. Good luck to all of you in the years ahead.

there's a difference between having empathy with the people whose office was firebombed and donating money to a racist political party

dunno why this is so hard for you to understand

No it's not hard for me to understand at all. I'm just telling you how sad I think all of this is.

 

[JP_]

there's a difference between having empathy with the people whose office was firebombed and donating money to a racist political party

dunno why this is so hard for you to understand

...there's also a difference between simply donating money to a GOP campaign and donating money to help right a wrong and to stand up against violence.

 

[Future]

Helping an organization rebuild after an attack does not support the organization or its belief. In fact, to be against this type of support implies you are in favor of the attack. People don't need to be firebombing people to get points across

However, if they were literally the nazis back in the day, I'm sure in hindsight people would look at attacks like this as a necessary evil. I don't believe we are at that point here, but it's frightening to ser people feeling that way due to the current tensions. This is how shit builds and gets out of control

 

[KHarvey16]

Some of you remind me of the main character at the beginning of the movie. In two hours, you will have learned a lesson and you'll agree with us.

 

[The Technomancer]

Because different people have different ways of trying to express their views. Hillary doesn't represent everyone who supports her or her party. It shouldn't be a hivemind. By aggressively guilting people on the same side for how they choose to express goodwill, don't you see that it divides your own allies and drives people who are not militant about politics further away from wanting to engage or support such behavior?

Nothing is "required", that's why it is charity. This is really the ugliest US election I've ever seen. Good luck to all of you in the years ahead.

It certainly is. And I didn't make it that way. But maybe I'm fucking done with us tiptoeing around respecting the people who did.

 

[Vestal]

Why should there still be goodwill with this cancerous, toxic rancid waste of a party? What is redeemable about the modern GOP at this point now that they've nominated Trump and Pence? They are a party of hate now. Everyone seems to understand this until all of the sudden something like this happens and then that was just words and the really important part is to extend an olive branch to those hateful people we were so assuredly decrying just days before

It makes a lot of words feel real empty

Because like it or not they represent a large portion of our population. As unfortunate as that is, it is a fact. A democracy stands on the discussion of ideas, even as stupid as they can be. What the Dems are doing here is right. Even if a GOP did not exist, the ideas are still there and another party would stand up and take its place..

We beat them with ideas in a level playing field... That is how you transform a country.

 

[The Technomancer]

Some of you remind me of the main character at the beginning of the movie. In two hours, you will have learned a lesson and you'll agree with us.

The GOP is now a hate group. That is a weird movie

 

[KHarvey16]

The GOP is now a hate group. That is a weird movie

The GOP and what they are is irrelevant to the motivations of those donating money to rebuild.

 

[ElFly]

...there's also a difference between simply donating money to a GOP campaign and donating money to help right a wrong and to stand up against violence.

you can decry the attack without giving money to the gop. it is the moral thing to do

I mean, next time the republicans do or say something you disapprove of...which is going to be 24 hours or something...you donated money to help that happen

then congratulations you just supported homophobia or racism or whatever they do next time

 

[Crash Station]

Why should there still be goodwill with this cancerous, toxic rancid waste of a party? What is redeemable about the modern GOP at this point now that they've nominated Trump and Pence?

The fact that a good portion of the party have come out against them for one (even if it took a while).

Let's not pretend the left is perfect and that the best path toward progress is a single viable party. I say that as a lifelong lefty (or at most a moderate-leaning one). Trump is indefensible, but seeing everything else in black and white terms is exactly the kind of thing that causes that hatred to fester. If you see an act of goodwill after an act of domestic terrorism as a negative, I feel like you end up becoming what you hate. Maybe understandably so as I don't know your history or if you were affected by such policies, but I can't justify it either way.

 

[rjinaz]

If you agree that the GOP won't hear whatever message this is intended to send... well, what exactly is that message supposed to be and for whose ears?



What else is the rebuilt office going to be used for?

So you won't personally burn them down, but you're fine if somebody burns them all to the ground. It's extremism, and honestly as bad as Trump.

We beat these people through democracy, not literally burning them to the ground.

 

[The Illiterati]

Did you see this? Did you see this thing? The animals that represent crooked Hillary bombed the GOP's offices in NC. Just terrible. Really terrible. And then get this. She volunteers to rebuild it. Get out of here with that. If it wasn't for her they wouldn't NEED to rebuild it. But understand Donald's already got his people working on rebuilding. The best people. Just the best. Really, he knows, he's built some of the best resorts in the country. Really great places. He's going to rebuild this place bigger and better than ever. $700 a night, top of the line.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Did you see this? Did you see this thing? The animals that represent crooked Hillary bombed our offices in NC. Just terrible. Really terrible. And then get this. She volunteers to rebuild it. Get out of here with that. If it wasn't for her we wouldn't NEED to rebuild it. But understand Donald's already got his people working on rebuilding. The best people. Just the best. Really, he knows, he's built some of the best resorts in the country. Really great places. He's going to rebuild this place bigger and better than ever. $700 a night, top of the line.

Those poor workers are going to get screwed. A Trump never pays his debts..

 

[rjinaz]

you can decry the attack without giving money to the gop. it is the moral thing to do

I mean, next time the republicans do or say something you disapprove of...which is going to be 24 hours or something...you donated money to help that happen

congratulations on helping the republicans

You're being deliberately obtuse. That office will exist one way or the other. Nothing done out of it will be the responsibility of anybody that donated. I believe in Democracy. I think they are shit stains, but they still deserve to be defeated through Democracy.

But I'll exit the conversation now. Because, what is done is done the money is donated. Life will move on and people will not be talking about this in two days. We can all just agree to disagree on this topic I think.

 

[Hellwarden]

you can decry the attack without giving money to the gop. it is the moral thing to do

I mean, next time the republicans do or say something you disapprove of...which is going to be 24 hours or something...you donated money to help that happen

congratulations on helping the republicans

But they're not donating to the Republican party.

The money is being raised by an independent organization to go solely to rebuilding the building.

I don't know if I agree with it, but what you're saying is incorrect.

 

[j_k_redtail]

If you see an act of goodwill after an act of domestic terrorism as a negative, I feel like you end up becoming what you hate.

I wouldn't go that far myself, but I otherwise agree with your larger point. It's an act of good will toward a political opponent.

The GOP today is toxic. But it deserves to be beaten at the ballot box, and this donation reinforces that point. I can understand why someone might balk at that, but NC Democrats don't really deserve anyone's contempt for this.

 

[Laevateinn]

Helping an organization rebuild after an attack does not support the organization or its belief. In fact, to be against this type of support implies you are in favor of the attack. People don't need to be firebombing people to get points across

However, if they were literally the nazis back in the day, I'm sure in hindsight people would look at attacks like this as a necessary evil. I don't believe we are at that point here, but it's frightening to ser people feeling that way due to the current tensions. This is how shit builds and gets out of control

This sort of black and white bullshit is idiotic. The GOP is not hurting for money and insurance will cover the damages. We don't even know who did it. Trump blamed us and we act like we're guilty. They can all go to hell. It sucks that their building is gone but they'll be fine.

 

[ElFly]

But they're not donating to the Republican party.

The money is being raised by an independent organization to go solely to rebuilding the building.

I don't know if I agree with it, but what you're saying is incorrect.

I missed that subtlety but still the point remains

you are saving the republicans money they were going to get anyway to help pursue their agenda

there is a detour to your money but in the end you are still helping them

You're being deliberately obtuse. That office will exist one way or the other.

then don't donate

Nothing done out of it will be the responsibility of anybody that donated.

I disagree

there is literally a hundred ways to better use that money. even if burning the bills you intended donate would help bring inflation down a smidge and thus be a better and more moral use of that money

 

[Father_Brain]

So you won't personally burn them down, but you're fine if somebody burns them all to the ground. It's extremism, and honestly as bad as Trump.

We beat these people through democracy, not literally burning them to the ground.

Oh, good god. No, I do not support or condone political violence against the GOP. That does not change the fact that the GOP is an inherently racist/misogynistic/etc. party, and that they are overwhelmingly responsible for the decline of the political climate in the US.

 

[The Technomancer]

But they're not donating to the Republican party.

The money is being raised by an independent organization to go solely to rebuilding the building.

I don't know if I agree with it, but what you're saying is incorrect.

I do not know how someone can say "Trump is a fascist racist misogynist hate mongering monster who is doing serious damage to our country by even being in the race" and then turn around and say "but it is important to show solidarity with his people, you know, to show that we can bridge the gap and stand together and all that"

 

[duckroll]

It certainly is. And I didn't make it that way. But maybe I'm fucking done with us tiptoeing around respecting the people who did.

I guess what I'm wondering is how this mentality will help in the long run. Trump is going to be defeated in the elections, this seems almost certain. But American politics will continue long after he is gone. What's next? Another civil war for real? Is that what people really want now?

 

[rjinaz]

Oh, good god. No, I do not support or condone political violence against the GOP. That does not change the fact that the GOP is an inherently racist/misogynistic/etc. party, and that they are overwhelmingly responsible for the decline of the political climate in the US.

Good to hear. And of course they are.

 

[sonicmj1]

Why should there still be goodwill with this cancerous, toxic rancid waste of a party? What is redeemable about the modern GOP at this point now that they've nominated Trump and Pence? They are a party of hate now. Everyone seems to understand this until all of the sudden something like this happens and then that was just words and the really important part is to extend an olive branch to those hateful people we were so assuredly decrying just days before

It makes a lot of words feel real empty

Why is a statement like Hillary's insufficient to send this message? Why does it require actively giving financial support to the GOP?

Actions speak louder than words. When they go low, we go high.

I don't think anyone is obligated by any means to give money to this, but I can't understand condemning it. The idea is to make them whole after an intolerable act of violence. If you'd prefer them to be isolated dealing with the aftermath of the firebombing, if you'd discourage others from voluntarily helping to undo the consequences of it, then how do you really oppose the outcome? Our stance can't be that the world is better off having political offices firebombed out of existence.

40% of the (voting population of the) country is going to vote for these people. They're going to be here after the election is over. At some point we're going to have to figure out how to live together respectfully.

Having a democracy of any kind means being able to accept that elections are legitimate, sacred institutions whose outcomes determine how our country is run. You can fight tooth and nail through the political process, protest in the streets, speak out in the press, go door to door with signs, but once you believe that the opposing party does not have the right to participate in the political process, that is the path to chaos. There are plenty of other countries that operate that way, but I'm not willing to watch the United States choose that path.

 

[metalslimer]

At some point, with how low we have come, somebody has to take the high road. The NC GOP are a horrific group of people who have done serious harm to many people recently, but in no way do I want their buildings to be ruined. I won't get into whether or not I feel sorry for them, but I can't sink low enough to not be happy to see some cooperation in rebuilding.

And even if you are cynical, the PR alone is better for the dems than what the NC GOP will get out of it. Donald Trump is not being elected president.

 

[JP_]

you can decry the attack without giving money to the gop. it is the moral thing to do

I mean, next time the republicans do or say something you disapprove of...which is going to be 24 hours or something...you donated money to help that happen

congratulations on helping the republicans

That's a stupid oversimplification, sorry. You could extend that argument to justify just about anything. Someone threw away a bunch of R votes? I guess you'd be against getting them out of the trash and counting them because that'd be helping them. For the record, I didn't donate anything, but I'm glad the donations happened (I have donated to Clinton, though). You say you're against the firebombing, but your words hold little weight when you literally argue that people shouldn't put their money where their mouth is. If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

This money isn't about helping Trump get elected, it's about sending a message that we're better than that. It sends a message that we are confident we can win without cheating. That's a message worth sending.

 

[Father_Brain]

Actions speak louder than words. When they go low, we go high.

I don't think anyone is obligated by any means to give money to this, but I can't understand condemning it. The idea is to make them whole after an intolerable act of violence. If you'd prefer them to be isolated dealing with the aftermath of the firebombing, if you'd discourage others from voluntarily helping to undo the consequences of it, then how do you really oppose the outcome? Our stance can't be that the world is better off having political offices firebombed out of existence.

40% of the (voting population of the) country is going to vote for these people. They're going to be here after the election is over. At some point we're going to have to figure out how to live together respectfully.

Having a democracy of any kind means being able to accept that elections are legitimate, sacred institutions whose outcomes determine how our country is run. You can fight tooth and nail through the political process, protest in the streets, speak out in the press, go door to door with signs, but once you believe that the opposing party does not have the right to participate in the political process, that is the path to chaos. There are plenty of other countries that operate that way, but I'm not willing to watch the United States choose that path.

Those are nice words. It's a shame that only one party actually believes in something resembling them, whereas the other is constantly engaged in minority voter suppression and conspiracy theories about rigged elections.

 

[Harpuia]

I do not know how someone can say "Trump is a fascist racist misogynist hate mongering monster who is doing serious damage to our country by even being in the race" and then turn around and say "but it is important to show solidarity with his people, you know, to show that we can bridge the gap and stand together and all that"

This sentiment is something I thought of when thinking of why it's unjust to support the GOP.

But as duck roll and others have been explaining, when is the time to course correct? Whose job should it be to extend an arm across from the other side? When should we try to make amends with other people? In this small time of need that could be a symptom of larger and worse things to come? At the end of a needless conflict that could or could not happen if things continue this way?

 

[KHarvey16]

Absolutely no one wins in the scenario where this kind of thing is normalized, accepted or simply shrugged off with a "meh, they suck anyway." Again, this is much bigger than any individual party or the specific platform they might represent. Those come and go.

 

[sonicmj1]

Those are nice words. It's a shame that only one party actually believes in something resembling them, whereas the other is constantly engaged in minority voter suppression and conspiracy theories about rigged elections.

Absolutely. All the more reason to fight for those ideals.