• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NYPD kill a man after he breaks up a fight between others.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Enzom21

Member
Pathetic that the department wont even say anything officially because they want to protect their own. He choked someone and murdered them.

The emergency workers will most likely be fired but the cops might get away with it.

There have also been 1000 complaints about chokeholds in the past couple of years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/n...udy-after-man-dies-in-staten-island.html?_r=0

The city agency that investigates allegations of police misconduct is studying the more than 1,000 complaints it has received in recent years about police officers using chokeholds, the agency said on Saturday, two days after a man died following a police encounter in which the hold appeared to be used.

What are the odds that chokeholds will continue to be used.
 

lednerg

Member
This is wishful thinking, at best, and reveals a common, yet total misunderstanding of how the U.S. political system operates.
...
But I suspect that at some point in the future, this current charade will come to an end, and the ruling class will reveal to us the nature of the system we really live in.
...

So instead of contacting your elected officials, we should wait around for "some point in the future" when the whole system fixes itself? And I'm the naive one? People have way more power than they ever think to use. I was with a group that got a resolution introduced into the NJ State Senate, and all we needed to do to was talk to our Senator - once.
 
So instead of contacting your elected officials, we should wait around for "some point in the future" when the whole system fixes itself? And I'm the naive one?

No, you just like straw man arguments.

People have way more power than they ever think to use.

Sure, but not through any top-down controlled political system.

I was with a group that got a resolution introduced into the NJ State Senate, and all we needed to do to was talk to our Senator - once.

Yes, it's no surprise that politicians will make an effort to maintain the illusion of democracy. They know their jobs depend on it.

Used car salesmen will listen to their customers and pretend to care about them getting a great deal as well.
 
This is wishful thinking, at best, and reveals a common, yet total misunderstanding of how the U.S. political system operates.

A major part of the problem we face in this country is the notion that we still live in a democracy and have a representative government. That if we just contact the politicians and let them know of we feel, or replace one set of politicians with a new set of politicians, the problem will just go away. It's that same wishful thinking that drove so many millions of people to fall for that "Hope and Change" propaganda employed by the Obama election campaign back in 2008.

The simple truth is, we do not have functional democracy, nor does our government represent us. We do not choose our own leaders, they are chosen for us. The only choice we are given in the matter is we are allowed to select from a tightly controlled, hand-picked group of politicians that have already been vetted by the banks and corporations who run the country. We are only allowed to have the politicians they want us to have, and those are the politicians they either directly control or know they can influence.

Why is this the case? It's very easy to understand, actually. It's almost intuitive. Elections are controlled by two things:

1. Money
2. Media

You need a combination of these two things to get anyone elected to a major political office in this country. One or the other won't do it. You need both in tandem.

Now who controls this special combination? Super wealthy people do. Banks and corporations do. The entire political system in the United States, and most other fake democracies, is controlled by wealthy interests, and wealthy interests don't have the same agenda that the peasants in the 99% do.

When you see that slogan "To Serve and Protect" on the side of a police car, take notice of the fact that the slogan never alludes to who exactly the police are serving and protecting. It's assumed by people that it must mean the police are serving and protecting the general community at large, but the real truth is the police exist to serve and protect the ruling class. Just as Mafia Dons will hire a bunch of thuggish henchmen to patrol a neighborhood under their control, the ruling class hires thuggish police to patrol the countries they control.

Police exist to control the 99% and keep them toeing the line. They "serve and protect" the interests of the ruling class, which is to centralize wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands, and maintain control of the system that allows them to exploit human beings much the same way a rancher might exploit a herd of cattle. That's what most of the countries on earth have been converted into - farms. Your "elected politicians" are really just middle managers who have no power. They've been put in place to run the farms for their wealthy owners and to take the blame when anything goes wrong.

The people aren't allowed to know they don't have democracy. The people aren't allowed to know their alleged "elected representatives" don't really represent them. After all, if the majority of the population ever learned this truth, it's likely there would be a revolution, or at the very least, widespread civil unrest. This is too risky for the ruling class, especially in the United States where there are well over 300 million firearms in private hands. A full-scale revolution in the United States would be virtually impossible to contain, despite the overwhelming technological advantage and resources possessed by the government. So the illusion of democracy and representative government is maintained - at least for the time being.

But I suspect that at some point in the future, this current charade will come to an end, and the ruling class will reveal to us the nature of the system we really live in.

Frank Zappa said it best:

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

Quoting this truth bomb for the new page. Surely, this will spark a conversation about dissent and- what? A neo-fascist troll derailed the conversation into hair splitting about the corporate electoral process? Oh...
 

commedieu

Banned
Quoting this truth bomb for the new page. Surely, this will spark a conversation about dissent and- what? A neo-fascist troll derailed the conversation into hair splitting about the corporate electoral process? Oh...

blah blah blah minorities voting would fix the entire plutocracy we are currently in. Idiots.

Its our fault for not being able to fund raise as much as Chase Bank.
 

rjinaz

Member
The emergency workers will most likely be fired but the cops might get away with it.

There have also been 1000 complaints about chokeholds in the past couple of years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/n...udy-after-man-dies-in-staten-island.html?_r=0



What are the odds that chokeholds will continue to be used.

The emergency workers should face some kind of discipline. I mean they just kind of showed up and then let him die, they didn't even attempt to administer any kind of help at all.

But yeah what is sad is that these workers may have been intimidated by the police on scene or in the past. They shouldn't have been needed to be called in the first place though that's the thing. Also, why does it seem to me that the NYPD may use this to shift the blame on others and away from the police officers?
 
So instead of contacting your elected officials, we should wait around for "some point in the future" when the whole system fixes itself?

The funny thing about liberals (I'm to the left of socialism), is how limited the scope of action is to them. Or perhaps more accurately, how they want to present a limited scope of actions to the public. Thank god you weren't around during the French revolution, "surely a strongly worded letter will make Marie Antoinette understand that we don't have any bread or cake, and this whole mess can be cleared up!"
 
The funny thing about liberals (I'm to the left of socialism)...

Not to derail, but just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be to the left of socialism?

Or perhaps more accurately, how they want to present a limited scope of options to the public.

With regard to liberals, I suspect a great many of them are well-intentioned, but naive. They've been rigorously conditioned NOT to think outside the box, so they don't.

This is the very essence of collectivism (herd-ism).

Thank god you weren't around during the French revolution, "surely a strongly worded letter will make Marie Antoinette understand that we don't have any bread or cake, and this whole mess can be cleared up!"

Ha, that's such a funny thought to ponder.
 

lednerg

Member
The funny thing about liberals (I'm to the left of socialism), is how limited the scope of action is to them. Or perhaps more accurately, how they want to present a limited scope of actions to the public. Thank god you weren't around during the French revolution, "surely a strongly worded letter will make Marie Antoinette understand that we don't have any bread or cake, and this whole mess can be cleared up!"

I spent five months straight camped outside of the state capitol building during the winter. We weren't allowed to have tents. When the State Police took our gear, we sued them and won. We later set up the means to help Hurricane Sandy victims when they were being ignored by our governor. What did you do, insult strangers on a message board?

I'm not kidding about writing and calling your local elected officials. Every work day, they get a list from their staff of what their constituents are talking about. It's how they gauge what's going to get them re-elected. If you say nothing, then they won't hear you.
 

Rhythmic

Member
Sorry if this has been posted before but from this link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/nypd-daniel-pantaleo-chok_n_5602742.html

Court records show that within the past two years, three men sued Daniel Pantaleo — the officer seen wrapping his arm around Garner's neck — over allegedly unlawful, racially motivated arrests. Garner was black.

In the first lawsuit, settled by the city in January, two black men accused Pantaleo and other officers of arresting them without cause and subjecting them to a "humiliating and unlawful strip search" on the street in which they were ordered to "pull their pants and underwear down, squat and cough." The men said they were held overnight on charges that were ultimately dismissed.

In a second lawsuit, a man accused Pantaleo and other officers of misrepresenting facts in a police report and other documents to substantiate charges that also were dismissed.


So he has been sued twice now for racial issues.

The man who decided to kill a man who happens to be black has a history of instigating racial discrimination.
Even if it has been posted in this thread then it needs to be posted again.
 

commedieu

Banned

sphagnum

Banned
Yes, and our political system is basically just oligarchical collectivism. We have a soft dictatorship.

There's another term for this, which is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

I spent five months straight camped outside of the state capitol building during the winter. We weren't allowed to have tents. When the State Police took our gear, we sued them and won. We later set up the means to help Hurricane Sandy victims when they were being ignored by our governor. What did you do, insult strangers on a message board?

I'm not kidding about writing and calling your local elected officials. Every work day, they get a list from their staff of what their constituents are talking about. It's how they gauge what's going to get them re-elected. If you say nothing, then they won't hear you.

Occupy I take it? Very commendable. I wish I had had more time to participate.

Regardless, getting politicians to change policy doesn't change the power structure of the country; in other words, you can't legislate out capitalism, which is what kame-sennin is implying.
 
There's another term for this, which is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.



Occupy I take it? Very commendable. I wish I had had more time to participate.

Regardless, getting politicians to change policy doesn't change the power structure of the country; in other words, you can't legislate out capitalism, which is what kame-sennin is implying.

tell that to all the tea partiers who's getting the people they want to be elected
 

sphagnum

Banned
tell that to all the tea partiers who's getting the people they want to be elected

The Tea Party movement is a capitalist front, so that kind of proves the point...


edit: when I say the "power structure" I don't mean which party is in power or which liberal ideology (progressive or conservative) is in power, I mean the economic mode of production that drives the country and acts as the material basis for its ruling ideology.
 
The Tea Party movement is a capitalist front, so that kind of proves the point...


edit: when I say the "power structure" I don't mean which party is in power or which liberal ideology (progressive or conservative) is in power, I mean the economic mode of production that drives the country and acts as the material basis for its ruling ideology.

It may have started off as a front for the Republican Party but it turned out the monster they created is starting to become independent.
 

Enzom21

Member
The emergency workers should face some kind of discipline. I mean they just kind of showed up and then let him die, they didn't even attempt to administer any kind of help at all.

But yeah what is sad is that these workers may have been intimidated by the police on scene or in the past. They shouldn't have been needed to be called in the first place though that's the thing. Also, why does it seem to me that the NYPD may use this to shift the blame on others and away from the police officers?

Even the cameraman noticed the lack of CPR. To protect a murder..

Good. Those are the kind of people who allow the genuinely evil fuckers to operate.

Everyone there should lose their jobs. Every last one of those cops standing around should lose their jobs and the one who killed him should be in prison but we know that won't happen.
Let's not forget Oscar Grant and his killer, he only got 2 years.
 

Apt101

Member
Stories like these always remind me of two things:

1. I think police departments need public oversight for wrongdoing. If it has to be at the federal level but open, so be it. They need to stop being allowed to police themselves

2. Lawsuit payments (forgive me, I forget the proper term) should come out of their pension fund, and not tax payer dollars

Those two things would mean police officers such as these would be weeded out of the system because they'd either be incarcerated or terminated outright. No more desk duty until the public forgets, then a return to active duty or transfer. Next, police departments would be taking proactive measures to deter valid lawsuits for misconduct, rather than walking the thin blue line and breaking the law or using threats to conceal their actions.
 
This is one of the better explanations for the existence of cops that I've read on the web. It's short and to the point. Recommended reading:

Ever wonder how come there are men (and women) in costumes “policing” the rest of us?

Most people accept this relationship as both given – and eternal. That there have always been men (if not always women) in costumes “policing” the rest of us. But, in fact, it’s a relatively novel thing. Think back to your schooldays. Do you recall any mention of police when you were learning about the colonial era and the American Revolution? There were sheriffs, yes – and the local militia. But these were concerned mostly with keeping the peace – that is, stepping in when someone harmed someone else. Up to and even during the Civil War – a titanic struggle between the fading remnants of the old republican idea and the centralized, omnipotent state that took its place – the idea of police as we know it was essentially unknown.

It is a modern concept – one developed out of the company town idea.

http://ericpetersautos.com/2013/05/24/where-do-cops-come-from/
 
This is one of the better explanations for the existence of cops that I've read on the web. It's short and to the point. Recommended reading:



http://ericpetersautos.com/2013/05/24/where-do-cops-come-from/

Ah police forces have existed throughout history. The Romans for example used their Army as the police in the cities etc. The ancient Chinese had police as did the Japanese.

That article is incredibly inaccurate. One of the first US police depts was formed in 1663.
 
Not to derail, but just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be to the left of socialism?

I'm an anti-statist in favor of free association and consensus-based direct democracy.

I spent five months straight camped outside of the state capitol building during the winter. We weren't allowed to have tents. When the State Police took our gear, we sued them and won. We later set up the means to help Hurricane Sandy victims when they were being ignored by our governor. What did you do, insult strangers on a message board?

If you were in Occupy, you have my respect and you have my thanks. However, I stand by my statement. Politicians are functionally incapable of changing the system that they were put in place to serve.
 
Ah police forces have existed throughout history. The Romans for example used their Army as the police in the cities etc. The ancient Chinese had police as did the Japanese.

No they haven't. At least not as we currently know police forces and their role in society in the modern era.

Using an army (the military) for policing purposes is not quite the same as using domestic police forces - made up of commoners - on a local level.

That article is incredibly inaccurate. One of the first US police depts was formed in 1663.

Actually, it's pretty accurate. The problem here is you're confusing sheriffs with police. They are not the same thing.
 
Ah police forces have existed throughout history. The Romans for example used their Army as the police in the cities etc. The ancient Chinese had police as did the Japanese.

That article is incredibly inaccurate. One of the first US police depts was formed in 1663.

No.

After the American Civil War, policing became more paramilitary in character, with the increased use of uniforms and military ranks. Before this, sheriff's offices had been non-uniformed organizations without a para-military hierarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police

Rome had magistrates that investigated crimes (detectives) and used soldiers for emergencies like riot control. The Chinese prefects were also investigators, but there was no armed police force. Designating one sheriff or detective to investigate crimes in a specific community is way different than having a paramilitary force constantly patrolling the community with the authority to stop, search, harass, or kill. The former is having someone in town who can solve important crimes like rape and murder. The latter is living in an open air prison surrounded by armed guards.
 
No they haven't. At least not as we currently know police forces and their role in society in the modern era.

Using an army (the military) for policing purposes is not quite the same as using domestic police forces - made up of commoners - on a local level.



Actually, it's pretty accurate. The problem here is you're confusing sheriffs with police. They are not the same thing.

Wrong. Town Watches were the police in medieval cities. Research the term prefect. They and the ones under them were the police who handled investigations and arrested people. Women were also prefects.

Magistrates in ancient Greece used slaves "rod bearers" as police. They arrested criminals.

Also research the Vigiles Urbani. The Santa Hermandad.

Then you have the French who created the lieutenant général de police back in 1667.

Sir Robert Peel is called the father of modern policing. So research him as well.

Once again your article is crap. http://www.ci.richmond.va.us/Police/HistoryPoliceDepartment.aspx

1807: The Richmond Police Department officially was established as one of the first formally organized law enforcement agencies in the United States.
 
Ah police forces have existed throughout history. The Romans for example used their Army as the police in the cities etc. The ancient Chinese had police as did the Japanese.
Calling an occupying ancient Roman army "police" in the modern sense is misleading. The foundation of the modern police department started in late 18th and early 19th century London. You'll hear about Robert Peel in pretty much any intro CJ class.
 
Politicians are functionally incapable of changing the system that they were put in place to serve.

100% correct. But even if a truly special human being came along that could somehow rise above the system to make meaningful structural changes, he'd be Kennedy'ed in an instant. He wouldn't even be allowed to set foot in the Oval Office.

The system cannot be changed from within. It's been set up that way on purpose.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
It sucks to hell and back but that particular piece you picked is true in many situations. Quick decisions have to be made in order to gain control of a criminal or suspect or else it's the cop who has been killed or beaten up by a black or Hispanic person. I knew a friend in Southern California who I basically consoled and told him he did the wrong thing. He got caught in the end but he basically evaded police for doing something wrong and hurt a white cop who was only doing his job. I've read several stories about excellent white cops with amazing community service which were killed by scum criminals who have no remorse the other way around. As I said yesterday, it's such a damn shame it comes to this but I think it's fair to say cops are more right than wrong in a lot of these cases.

I think it's fair to bring up the contrasting side since I think it's unfair to just bash the cop for doing his job even if he did do something stupid like choke hold. It's the thousands of other situational decisions that happen throughout the year which allow criminals or suspects to evade police and sometimes brutally and cold heartedly murder good police force. Those things often don't get the response as this case which I noted, it's very hard to watch that and can only stomach it once. I feel bad for the guy in the end and wish there would be other solutions but as stated several times, police have to apprehend suspects every day and sometimes it ends their lives if they don't make quick decisions.

I see what you're saying and in some cases I'd agree with you but there are particular cases such as this where you can just see how badly a situation was handled. I've seen a lot of videos where the force was justified but I've also seen a few where cops are yelling "put your hands behind your back" while the person is in no position to do so. I just saw a video today where a cop was asking a guy to put his hands behind his back while 1. Holding his hands and 2. Only seconds later punching him in the face (which naturally causes the guy to block the punches).

Sometimes cops just need to do better.
 
Wrong. Town Watches were the police in medieval cities. Research the term prefect. They and the ones under them were the police who handled investigations and arrested people. Women were also prefects.

Magistrates in ancient Greece used slaves "rod bearers" as police. They arrested criminals.

Also research the Vigiles Urbani. The Santa Hermandad.

Then you have the French who created the lieutenant général de police back in 1667.

Sir Robert Peel is called the father of modern policing. So research him as well.

Once again your article is crap. http://www.ci.richmond.va.us/Police/HistoryPoliceDepartment.aspx

1807: The Richmond Police Department officially was established as one of the first formally organized law enforcement agencies in the United States.

OK, if you want to believe a whole bunch of different community peace keeping roles that shared certain aspects with modern police forces were actually forms of police, as we currently know them in the modern era, have at it.

You have the right to remain wrong.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
So instead of contacting your elected officials, we should wait around for "some point in the future" when the whole system fixes itself? And I'm the naive one? People have way more power than they ever think to use. I was with a group that got a resolution introduced into the NJ State Senate, and all we needed to do to was talk to our Senator - once.

Maybe if we talk to Obama once about campaign finance reform we'll be okay. It's just that the politicians don't know there's a problem, that's all! Once they figure it, out thanks to a few concerned citizens with some brand new info explaining the benefits, the country will be saved!

And maybe if we go and have a quick convo with our local police commissioner, we can get their internal affairs unit to look at things impartially! Hundreds of millions of dollars a year in lawsuits were a tad too aggressive a tactic to get through to the NYPD. If only we could get a couple of guys together to tell the police that some unsavory stuff is happening. That'll change everything!
 

isamu

OMFG HOLY MOTHER OF MARY IN HEAVEN I CANT BELIEVE IT WTF WHERE ARE MY SEDATIVES AAAAHHH
Disgusting to say the least.
 

Mael

Member
No they haven't. At least not as we currently know police forces and their role in society in the modern era.

Using an army (the military) for policing purposes is not quite the same as using domestic police forces - made up of commoners - on a local level.

You mean to say that Gendarmeries don't exist anymore?
Because they're not that different from your usual police or something...
Although one would argue that Police officers can't be made up of commoners hastily trained and sent on the street with a gun...
 

lednerg

Member
Maybe if we talk to Obama once about campaign finance reform we'll be okay. It's just that the politicians don't know there's a problem, that's all! Once they figure it, out thanks to a few concerned citizens with some brand new info explaining the benefits, the country will be saved!

And maybe if we go and have a quick convo with our local police commissioner, we can get their internal affairs unit to look at things impartially! Hundreds of millions of dollars a year in lawsuits were a tad too aggressive a tactic to get through to the NYPD. If only we could get a couple of guys together to tell the police that some unsavory stuff is happening. That'll change everything!
Okay, whatever. Don't bother your elected officials by telling them what you think. Instead, stick to writing cynical posts on message boards. Link to stories and write rants for your friends on facebook to like. Maybe take a hop onto the Twittersphere. Wait around for things to change on their own. These are far more effective uses of your time and energy. When your grandkids ask what you were doing when all this shit was going down, you won't have to bore them with any kind of story.
 
It seems to me that a police officer is more likely to kill you rather than a criminal if your a minority. Don't be black/brown or own a dog, that's asking police to hurt you.
 

LiK

Member
just saw the update about this on NBC News. Glad they're doing something about this but those cops should be charged. guy was selling individual cigs to people. Wow, did that really need them to grab him like that?

Oh yea, all those cops in that forum are fucking assholes.
 
Wow just saw the video and I'm sick to my stomach. This is disgusting. The 99 jersey asshole needs to be in the fucking UFC, not doing surprise choke holds on unsuspecting citizens. Fuck that guy to hell and back and the douchebags pigs with him.

The EMT, holy shit, why the fuck didn't they do anything???
 

zeromcd73

Member
http://theerant.yuku.com/topic/6842...D-cop-puts-chokehold-VIDE?page=1#.U801MLFTVNv

Reactions to Eric Garner's death on a messageboard frequented by NYPD. The responses are disgusting and racist. What a surprise.

Disgusting.
giphy.gif
 
Wow just saw the video and I'm sick to my stomach. This is disgusting. The 99 jersey asshole needs to be in the fucking UFC, not doing surprise choke holds on unsuspecting citizens. Fuck that guy to hell and back and the douchebags pigs with him.

The EMT, holy shit, why the fuck didn't they do anything???

They knew the guy was dead. Why do first aid to a corpse? It also took the emts four minutes to arrive.
 

Norml

Member
Expected much worse from all the comments. The guy did resist arrest and all the police did was take control. Sad that his body gave out from the stress though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom