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[NotSmartEnough]

You are thinking too hard. There is no need to involve GameDVR. Dr Richard Marks already described how it is done:
https://youtu.be/vBugMeeZE2Q?t=162

HDMI can be reprogrammed to be used as a data channel in any configuration that Sony requires. HDMI 1.4b that PS4 has can support a bit over 10Gbps of data throughput. 1080p120 accounts for only ~6Gbps, so there is a lot of space left for other data pipelines [separate video stream, hundreds of raw audio files for PU processing, sensor data if needed, etc].

This isn't me speculating about how it might be done, it's from an interview with Shu, I'll find it and link it, it's in Japanese but even with a machine translation it's pretty clear that the solution is as I described.

Edit: found the source, it was Ito, not Shu. Here is the relevant section:

"Briefly summarized, PS4 is while outputting video via HDMI to PSVR, it renders the image of a different point of view to be a television, PS4 did on MPEG-4 video streamed on the side of the H.264 encoder integrated into the APU, I for transmission via USB to PSVR of interface box "Processing Unit". Processing Unit which has received the stream data, decodes this, the HDMI output to the display device"

And the link if you want to read the whole thing.

 

[foolishoptimist]

You are quite mistaken here. DK2 is currently very easy to install and use, the driver situation is great. When you say half the games and demos are completely broken, that was basically on purpose, it isn't a driver problem - Oculus changed their pre-release Rift driver to be *much* more consumer friendly and also more powerful for developers at the same time. They basically made the Rift plug-and-play-easy to use, where before it was a horrible mess, with players having to choose between manually extending their Windows desktop over the Rift as if it were a second monitor or using a "Direct" mode, and some apps worked well one way, some worked well the other way, some were different for different people. This change is very much for the better for both consumers and developers; it broke compatibility for existing apps, but all those app developers have to do is recompile with the new SDK to fix it. This is normal for a pre-release SDK, and is one of the reasons Oculus recommended that only developers purchase a DK2, because it wasn't consumer-ready. As for the nVidia driver situation, that was fixed within a month after Windows 10's release, you don't need to download any specific driver anymore.

As of now the Oculus Rift is already easy for new consumers - plug in the headset and camera, install the driver, and then just run Rift games and apps compiled with the new SDK, they just work. It'll be even better with the consumer Rift next year, since it'll have its own Steam-like interface for finding and downloading apps.

I was able to borrow a DK2 in January, and it was not as easy as you've described(On Win8).
They already had the new driver, and each demo seemed to come with an executable compiled for each driver. But it wasn't simply a case of choosing the newer one since I had the new driver installed.

For me, some demos worked by selecting the new driver exe, others, I had to use the exe for the old driver to get them to run.
Granted these could be dev issues, instead of driver issues, and either way I'd expect this to be smoothed out by launch. But it wasn't "Great" when I tried it.

 

[serversurfer]

You are thinking too hard. There is no need to involve GameDVR. Dr Richard Marks already described how it is done:
https://youtu.be/vBugMeeZE2Q?t=162

HDMI can be reprogrammed to be used as a data channel in any configuration that Sony requires. HDMI 1.4b that PS4 has can support a bit over 10Gbps of data throughput. 1080p120 accounts for only ~6Gbps, so there is a lot of space left for other data pipelines [separate video stream, hundreds of raw audio files for PU processing, sensor data if needed, etc].

Do you have anything else to support that? What he says may be interpreted that way, but I was under the impression that the Social Screen just flattened and stretched the left-eye image, and asymmetrical play was basically just split screen. I figured that'd mean the VR player wasn't actually getting a stereo view, but now that I think more about it, I'm not sure how the breakout box would know it was supposed to be mirroring the right-eye image for the left eye.

Anyway, I know Sony didn't actually come up with asymmetric play. It was actually done independently by a dev (Steel Crate?), and Sony liked it so much they put it in the official SDK. But, I don't really know much about the implementation details. Do you have any information you can share?

This isn't me speculating about how it might be done, it's from an interview with Shu, I'll find it and link it, it's in Japanese but even with a machine translation it's pretty clear that the solution is as I described.

Edit: found the source, it was Ito, not Shu. Here is the relevant section:

"Briefly summarized, PS4 is while outputting video via HDMI to PSVR, it renders the image of a different point of view to be a television, PS4 did on MPEG-4 video streamed on the side of the H.264 encoder integrated into the APU, I for transmission via USB to PSVR of interface box "Processing Unit". Processing Unit which has received the stream data, decodes this, the HDMI output to the display device"

And the link if you want to read the whole thing.

I don't read Japanese, so I have no idea what that guy was actually saying, but I suspect Google have butchered the translation. They're carrying the video over HDMI, not USB. USB is used to collect inertial data from the headset, and it sends the processed tracking information back to the breakout box, so the DSP inside in can apply the necessary "rotation" to the audio stream for 3D audio to forward to the headset.

 

[Blanquito]

Do you have anything else to support that? What he says may be interpreted that way, but I was under the impression that the Social Screen just flattened and stretched the left-eye image, and asymmetrical play was basically just split screen. I figured that'd mean the VR player wasn't actually getting a stereo view, but now that I think more about it, I'm not sure how the breakout box would know it was supposed to be mirroring the right-eye image for the left eye.

Anyway, I know Sony didn't actually come up with asymmetric play. It was actually done independently by a dev (Steel Crate?), and Sony liked it so much they put it in the official SDK. But, I don't really know much about the implementation details. Do you have any information you can share?

My impression from the linked video was that the asymmetrical screen is rendered just like the HMD's screens are rendered, and all three images (asymmetrical, HMD1, HMD2) are sent through HDMI to the breakout box. The breakout box then sends images HMD1+2 to the HMD, and asymmetrical to the tv. At least, that's what I understood of what Dr Marks was saying. Anyone feel free to correct me.

[Edit] though technically Sony is using a single panel instead of split panels, so HMD1+2 may actually only be one image with that fisheye-ish distortion on it, but the gist is the same I think...

 

[serversurfer]

My impression from the linked video was that the asymmetrical screen is rendered just like the HMD's screens are rendered, and all three images (asymmetrical, HMD1, HMD2) are sent through HDMI to the breakout box. The breakout box then sends images HMD1+2 to the HMD, and asymmetrical to the tv. At least, that's what I understood of what Dr Marks was saying. Anyone feel free to correct me.

[Edit] though technically Sony is using a single panel instead of split panels, so HMD1+2 may actually only be one image with that fisheye-ish distortion on it, but the gist is the same I think...

Well, for normal, non-asymmetric games, the PS4 renders two half-screen views; kinda like it would for split-screen play, but instead of Player One and Player Two, you have Left Eye and Right Eye. This gets passed out over the HDMI cable just like a split-screen would get sent to your TV.

The breakout box takes this split view and passes it as-is to the headset. This image has the famous "barrel distortion" that applies a fisheye effect to both the Left Eye and Right eye views. Because of the focusing lenses in the headset, this distorted image appears as normal to your eye. You've seen the double-fisheye view in the output from all the Oculus demos.

Obviously, that's not really the ideal view for onlookers, so the breakout box also makes a copy of the image being sent to the headset and caches it for manipulation. Specifically, it takes only the half of the image that was intended for the left eye, and it applies a "de-distortion" to it which removes the fisheye effect and makes it fit nicely on a 16:9 TV screen. It's actually a fairly simple process that can be handled by a DSP in the breakout box.

I thought the asymmetric play was done similarly, with the onlookers' view simply replacing the left-eye image, but as I said, I'm not sure how the breakout box would know to handle something like that, especially if it wasn't planned for by Sony. DieH@rd's comment leads me to think they may be using HDMI for raw data transfer instead of or in addition to carrying the spec'd video signals, but I'm not 100% sure that's possible on HDMI, and I've not heard Sony say anything about that myself, and then I'm even more surprised that a developer would be able to implement on their own.

 

[Danlord]

Yoshida was interviewed by Digital Spy and has said that PlayStation VR wil not be priced to make a profit, which gives me more confidence this will be priced quite nicely in my £199-£249.99 price bracket

Digital Spy Interview with Yoshida - http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/in...l-reality-games-need-their-own-rating-system/

PlayStation VR does feel the most 'living room-ready' of the competing headsets, with Oculus and Vive a bit more specialist. Do you think Sony's history in that space is its biggest advantage?


SY: "We are bringing a console mentality and also making developers test it fully before using their content. We tend to price hardware not to make money from it but to get as many install base so that content can be sold. This is the same kind of thinking in the way we are approaching PlayStation VR.

Not sure if this was new thread worthy but there is still some discussion on PSVR here so I'll post it here.

 

[mrklaw]

I thought the asymmetric play was done similarly, with the onlookers' view simply replacing the left-eye image, but as I said, I'm not sure how the breakout box would know to handle something like that, especially if it wasn't planned for by Sony. DieH@rd's comment leads me to think they may be using HDMI for raw data transfer instead of or in addition to carrying the spec'd video signals, but I'm not 100% sure that's possible on HDMI, and I've not heard Sony say anything about that myself, and then I'm even more surprised that a developer would be able to implement on their own.

The 'HDMI as data channel' makes sense when you consider the 3D audio too. How is the ps4 sending audio to be processed? Presumably it has to send individual sounds along with 3D positional information for the box to process. So it can't send a normal PCM/DD audio stream.

 

[ChouGoku]

Yoshida was interviewed by Digital Spy and has said that PlayStation VR wil not be priced to make a profit, which gives me more confidence this will be priced quite nicely in my £199-£249.99 price bracket

Digital Spy Interview with Yoshida - http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/in...l-reality-games-need-their-own-rating-system/

Not sure if this was new thread worthy but there is still some discussion on PSVR here so I'll post it here.

If psvr is $199-250 and I can get dreams and no mans sky works for it, my social life would be over

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Yoshida was interviewed by Digital Spy and has said that PlayStation VR wil not be priced to make a profit, which gives me more confidence this will be priced quite nicely in my £199-£249.99 price bracket

Digital Spy Interview with Yoshida - http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/in...l-reality-games-need-their-own-rating-system/

Not sure if this was new thread worthy but there is still some discussion on PSVR here so I'll post it here.

This is threadworthy IMO.

I think its a mistake, i think this should be sold as a premium product, make 50-100 dollars profit off of each unit sold. I dont think VR is mainstream enough yet and that they should maximize revenue from the hardcore gamers that are going to buy this.

 

[QuantumZebra]

*chants $350 $350 $350
Come on sony,hardware looks good, launch software looking like a good entry point give me $350(or under but i doubt it being realistic) and im day one

Yea tbh this is the first gimmick I might day one. I rightly stayed away from Kinect/Virtual Boy / other gimmicks but this one is... too good looking

 

[Brutuspedia]

Price will be around 400$ - 500$, they said it would be he same as a new game platform.

There's no way it would be around 200$ 300$

 

[androvsky]

Price will be around 400$ - 500$, they said it would be he same as a new game platform.

There's no way it would be around 200$ 300$

There's multiple ways of reading "priced like a new game platform", one of those ways is that it's sold at break-even or a small loss while the money is made on the software (which is how I read the Andrew House statement). Besides, not all new game platforms launch at $400+, even for Sony.

 

[Danlord]

Price will be around 400$ - 500$, they said it would be he same as a new game platform.

There's no way it would be around 200$ 300$

Vita is a new platform, that was priced reasonably(ish). Platform != Console price.

By the way I am making a new thread for the price here.

 

[Freeman]

This is threadworthy IMO.

I think its a mistake, i think this should be sold as a premium product, make 50-100 dollars profit off of each unit sold. I dont think VR is mainstream enough yet and that they should maximize revenue from the hardcore gamers that are going to buy this.

No. Loss leader strategy is perfect here, more people getting PS4s, more word of mouth to stablish VR, more people to buy VR games, increases the chances of being competitive with other alternatives, etc.

 

[Neuromancer]

This is threadworthy IMO.

I think its a mistake, i think this should be sold as a premium product, make 50-100 dollars profit off of each unit sold. I dont think VR is mainstream enough yet and that they should maximize revenue from the hardcore gamers that are going to buy this.

I can't disagree more. They need as many PS4 owners to buy this as possible to make it a success. The only thing stopping VR from being mainstream is a crazy price tag.

 

[serversurfer]

The 'HDMI as data channel' makes sense when you consider the 3D audio too. How is the ps4 sending audio to be processed? Presumably it has to send individual sounds along with 3D positional information for the box to process. So it can't send a normal PCM/DD audio stream.

Yeah, I don't really know how that works either. lol I was thinking it might just take a stereo stream and figure out what it'd sound like if your head was turned, but I really have no idea. I'd initially assumed all the audio stuff would be handled on the PS4, but maybe it was getting in the way, and they realized they could do it cheaply with a DSP.

But yeah, that's something I'd like to hear more details on.

TI think its a mistake, i think this should be sold as a premium product, make 50-100 dollars profit off of each unit sold. I dont think VR is mainstream enough yet and that they should maximize revenue from the hardcore gamers that are going to buy this.

I disagree. They'd rather see that $50-$100 spent on software, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Price will be around 400$ - 500$, they said it would be he same as a new game platform.

There's no way it would be around 200$ 300$

That's not what they said at all. They said exactly what Shu reiterates here; they'll be pricing it just like they do console hardware, where they don't look to make a profit, because that only serves to raise the barrier to entry, meaning fewer users they can sell software to, and software sales are what they really care about.

Contrast with companies like HTC and Samsung, who will certainly be looking to profit on the hardware they sell.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

I don't read Japanese, so I have no idea what that guy was actually saying, but I suspect Google have butchered the translation. They're carrying the video over HDMI, not USB. USB is used to collect inertial data from the headset, and it sends the processed tracking information back to the breakout box, so the DSP inside in can apply the necessary "rotation" to the audio stream for 3D audio to forward to the headset.

I don't read Japanese either, but Google translate, however bad it may be, can't have just come up with 'H264 encoding' on its own, and that's the key bit of the article.

My understanding is that the headset view is sent via HDMI from PS4 to the breakout box where it's processed and sent to the headset. If the same view is being duplicated on the TV then the box does some extra image processing and sends an undistorted feed out on the second HDMI to the TV. The headset sends tracking info back to the breakout box via USB which is used for interpolation and is sent on to the PS4.

For asymmetric multiplayer everything remains the same except the PS4 renders another viewpoint, encodes it and sends out via USB to the breakout box, which decodes it for the TV.

Happy to be proven wrong, but given the info at the moment this is more likely than some unknown solution involving sending two streams via HDMI.

 

[disastermouse]

Vita is a new platform, that was priced reasonably(ish). Platform != Console price.

By the way I am making a new thread for the price here.

Spoiler

Overpriced memory cards

for PSVR confirmed!

 

[DieH@rd]

Price will be around 400$ - 500$, they said it would be he same as a new game platform.

There's no way it would be around 200$ 300$

"New game platform" comment means that PSVR will not be priced as cheap accessory.

There is not enough pricey components in PSVR to make it as expensive as you predict, especially since many PS4 owners already own PSVR accessories [camera and moves] and Sony [IMO] needs to offer a cheap SKU for those users.

Since Sony confirmed motion-trackable DS4 will be their default VR controller, here is my example of PSVR SKUs:
- cheap camera-less PSVR SKU [just headset]
- $50 more for headset+camera SKU
- 99$ for 2 Moves and few bundled games

 

[serversurfer]

My understanding is that the headset view is sent via HDMI from PS4 to the breakout box where it's processed and sent to the headset. If the same view is being duplicated on the TV then the box does some extra image processing and sends an undistorted feed out on the second HDMI to the TV.

Correct, but I don't think the breakout box does any processing on the image destined for the headset. I'm pretty sure it's passed through as-is; any processing done at this point would tend to introduce a lot of latency, I'd imagine.

The headset sends tracking info back to the breakout box via USB which is used for interpolation and is sent on to the PS4.

Just to be clear, the breakout box doesn't process the tracking information. It just collates all of the data being collected by the inertial sensors in the headset, packages it up to be sent over USB, and forwards the "raw" data to the PS4, where it's combined with information coming from the camera to determine the location and orientation of the headset. This is no different from the board inside your DS4 that collects input from the DS4's inertial sensors — along with input from the buttons, analog sticks, and trackpad — and packages it up for transmission via USB or BT.

Now, once the PS4 combines the data from the inertial sensors and the camera to determine the headset's location, that location is sent back via USB to the breakout box, so the DSP inside can use it to process/compose the 3D sound for the headset.

For asymmetric multiplayer everything remains the same except the PS4 renders another viewpoint, encodes it and sends out via USB to the breakout box, which decodes it for the TV.

That may well be. If so, then I'm even more curious to learn how that dev got the breakout box to perform this function, if Sony didn't explicitly lay the groundwork for them.

Happy to be proven wrong, but given the info at the moment this is more likely than some unknown solution involving sending two streams via HDMI.

Yeah, I'm just speculating here, and as yet, I'm not particularly pleased with any of my theories. lol It could certainly work as you describe, but I'm still hung up on how it could work that way if Sony hadn't planned for it. Shu did say that after the dev showed them, they thought it was so cool they made it an official part of PSVR, so perhaps the dev originally came up with a makeshift split-screen solution like I described, and then Sony added the necessary hardware to the breakout box for "full" asymmetric support.

Again, we need more information!

Since Sony confirmed motion-trackable DS4 will be their default VR controller, here is my example of PSVR SKUs:
- cheap camera-less PSVR SKU [just headset]
- $50 more for headset+camera SKU
- 99$ for 2 Moves and few bundled games

I assume the +$99 price point also includes the Camera? Yeah, that seems pretty reasonable.

Kinda hope everyone gets a copy of Dreams though, regardless of what other software may be bundled. Since VR is a brand new medium, we need as many creators out there as possible; "amateur" or otherwise. UGC from Dreams will go a long way to filling in the gaps between other software releases, with gaps and a general lack of content being a primary concern early in the lifecycle. Anyone waiting a year or two to jump in will have plenty of content available, but we need to keep those early adaptors happy and engaged while they wait for the games to arrive. Dreams can do a lot of work there, even if the user in question isn't creating anything themselves. The first Mario Galaxy clones will start appearing within weeks.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

UGC from Dreams will go a long way to filling in the gaps between other software releases

If Dreams supports PSVR (and it would make no sense for it not to), then it could be huge.

I was impressed with the PGW presentation, but pandas and creepy giant mice don't do much for me.

There is a longer post PGW video on YouTube which gives some more insight. They mention that creators have a lot of control over the graphical style, there's a short clip of a sci-fi flight game that makes it seem that the scope of this game is going to be vast.

Need more info from PSX!