• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Protests happening in Minneapolis and Baton Rouge right now

Status
Not open for further replies.
You can get people's attention (even inconvenience people!) without endangering lives.

You say that, but I'm not seeing any suggestions.

I distinctly remember people using your exact same type of argument when BLM protested at a mall, only it was "You can get people's attention without inconveniencing people!"

Ultimately, BLM trying to appeal to people who keep moving the goalposts is an exercise in futility.

(I'm not saying that you're doing that, but I am saying that there is a not-insignificant number of people who have your same gripes with the movement that do).
 

Sibylus

Banned
Beyond tired of precious white folks who care about traffic and tone more than black lives. I fucking see you. You're disgusting. You're no kin of mine.

And sup Johnny. Keep demagoguing from that pit you've wedged your head into. Doing the community a service by showing your true colors.
 

GK86

Homeland Security Fail
Bring them on, and tell us why they'll be more effective than the methods being done now.

Mind you, it's your strategy vs ones that were successful in the Civil Rights Movement.

"They should make a protest thread on gaf. They get to protest in their underwear and I get to support them with gifs. No hypothetical lives will be lost. Win-win!"
 
A protest shouldn't be aiming to cause complete disruption such as blocking an interstate, they should be marching towards their police HQ or local government.

Also as somebody outside the US, it's scary how eager police are to draw their guns in non-life threatening situations, the threat of lethal force should be a last resort, not waving a gun around to get somebody to move back.


Man fuck this convenience shit


I'm tired of white people on video game boards telling minorities how to protest. Fuck y'all know about real hardship and inherent disadvantages because of who you are

Fuck outta here
 

Subtle

Member
If someone dies because protesters block traffic, then we can talk. As it stands, it's only a hypothetical and it's not like emergency services do not have alternatives. Protesters can be a nuisance the everyday flow of society, yes. So the immediate negative reaction is warranted. But remember that they're supposed to be annoying, they're getting you to talk about their cause. They've succeeded. Please acknowledge that.
 

greatgeek

Banned
Beyond tired of precious white folks who care about traffic and tone more than black lives. I fucking see you. You're disgusting. You're no kin of mine.

And sup Johnny. Keep demagoguing from that pit you've wedged your head into. Doing the community a service by showing your true colors.
As distasteful as it might be, tone does matter. No change can occur in our democratic society without the support of a significant percentage of the population. The requisite level of support won't be achieved if those that require persuasion are turned off by the reform movement's tone.
 

tfur

Member
I like how you constantly make assertions without providing any sources.

This topic came up in the Dallas shooting thread. There is a higher rate of violent crime (murder) as reported by the DOJ. Google "homicides in us by race"

Lots of reasons, but true statistic.

I would like to see stats of death by cop vs total population and a breakdown in ages and races.

Seems like the news should be looking and showing stats on a regular basis.

I guess cops killed by perpetrators per year would be a good stat to collect as well .
 

Subtle

Member
As distasteful as it might be, tone does matter. No change can occur in our democratic society without the support of a significant percentage of the population. The requisite level of support won't be achieved if those that require persuasion are turned off by the reform movement's tone.

yep. And you don't have to be white to care about tone, if whoever is reading this wants to discard the argument on the basis of the color of our skin (which isn't white)
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Man fuck this convenience shit


I'm tired of white people on video game boards telling minorities how to protest. Fuck y'all know about real hardship and inherent disadvantages because of who you are

Fuck outta here

I mean if feedback is well founded who really cares where it comes from? Negative or positive.

Personally I think Baton Rouge has been about as wise with it given economic realities as they could. They took to the Mayor's house, the police station the officers resided at, near the location the murder happened and the capitol building. I mean where the fuck else should they be going? Fucking City Park on the other side of town where many would have trouble getting too?

Logistically I would like to hear where these Baton Rouge protestors should of gone instead? Because I am at a loss. The traffic argument is a non-starter because everywhere they were either wasn't deeply impeding traffic or had easy access to alternate routes that wouldn't really lengthen a commute.
 

Plumbob

Member
You say that, but I'm not seeing any suggestions.

If you're taking to the streets, get a permit.

I have a feeling BLM protestors have a level of institutional suspicion that makes this sound unappetizing, but it's one of the best ways to make sure people can get to the hospital.

If the protest is unethical it's still on the protestors to leave paths open for emergency services.

But I'm not confident that BLM as a protest movement has the institutional finesse to direct large numbers of protestors to leave some lanes open and others closed.
 
If you're taking to the streets, get a permit.

I have a feeling BLM protestors have a level of institutional suspicion that makes this sound unappetizing, but it's one of the best ways to make sure people can get to the hospital.

If the protest is unethical it's still on the protestors to leave paths open for emergency services.

But I'm not confident that BLM as a protest movement has the institutional finesse to direct large numbers of protestors to leave some lanes open and others closed.

Do we know that there is a serious issue with respect to people being unable to reach the hospital?
 

Plumbob

Member
Can you blame him? It's not even funny to watch, it's just sad. It's like watching a Flat Earther react to "where's the evidence?"

That's enough of this thread. Too many ad hominem attacks with emotions running too high.

I support Black Lives Matter. I hope the movement achieves its goals.
 

Sibylus

Banned
As distasteful as it might be, tone does matter. No change can occur in our democratic society without the support of a significant percentage of the population. The requisite level of support won't be achieved if those that require persuasion are turned off by the reform movement's tone.

This is a popular myth, and the second sentence is an outright falsehood on top of that. Rights and equal protections before the law are more often than not only made possible by cascading disruptive events in society forcing the hands of government- and very often over the wishes of a very significant percentage of the population. Something on the order of 900,000 Americans had to die before black people could be even considered people. Disruptive marches, protests, and riots had to happen before Jim Crow was dismantled and the Civil Rights Act was passed. National guardsmen had to protect black students going to fucking school before white people would accept the end of segregation in schools.

Crediting power to tone is a fundamental misapplication of history. Disruption of the day-to-day workings of the system is the power that forces these changes- people throwing their own lives into the cogs of the system until it either must reform or break.
 
That's enough of this thread. Too many ad hominem attacks with emotions running too high.

I support Black Lives Matter. I hope the movement achieves its goals.

You responded to a post that specifically asked for an example by offering -nothing-. You speak of getting a permit, but the same issues with blocking hypothetical ambulances could just as easily exist there.

It should also be noted that if we're talking about risk, there is probably a greater risk of protests distracting drivers and causing accidents. With that being the case, do you feel that it is irresponsible for a protest to occur near a road?
 
I mean if feedback is well founded who really cares where it comes from? Negative or positive.

Personally I think Baton Rouge has been about as wise with it given economic realities as they could. They took to the Mayor's house, the police station the officers resided at, near the location the murder happened and the capitol building. I mean where the fuck else should they be going? Fucking City Park on the other side of town where many would have trouble getting too?

Logistically I would like to hear where these Baton Rouge protestors should of gone instead? Because I am at a loss. The traffic argument is a non-starter because everywhere they were either wasn't deeply impeding traffic or had easy access to alternate routes that wouldn't really lengthen a commute.


Here's the thing:

You have no fucking foundation on which to provide feedback. No historical context. If you aren't in solidarity with those of us fed up of dealing with this shit since birth then the best feedback from you is literally nothing at all.
 

PopeReal

Member
And of course this thread went to shit because of all the people who care more about order than change.

And if that order includes people dying, that is acceptable.

We see the deaths piling up on video now and they still don't care.
 
It should also be noted that if we're talking about risk, there is probably a greater risk of protests distracting drivers and causing accidents. With that being the case, do you feel that it is irresponsible for a protest to occur near a road?

And what about protests that are above a certain noise level? If they're too loud, there would be a risk that an elderly person who lives nearby is injured and nobody would hear their cries of "Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!"
 

TheFlow

Banned
Here's the thing:

You have no fucking foundation on which to provide feedback. No historical context. If you aren't in solidarity with those of us fed up of dealing with this shit since birth then the best feedback from you is literally nothing at all.

pretty much.
 

The Kree

Banned
Protest on the street and they'll say you're creating a safety hazard and possibly arrest you. Protest from your keyboard and you'll get mocked, harassed, and possibly doxxed. I don't think there is an avenue for protest that won't be met with resistance. We may as well tell protesters to whisper into their closets if we're that intent on missing the point.
 
And of course this thread went to shit because of all the people who care more about order than change.

And if that order includes people dying, that is acceptable.

We see the deaths piling up on video now and they still don't care.

Well, they'd care if only the tone was nicer and the uppity coloureds didn't inconvenience them!
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Here's the thing:

You have no fucking foundation on which to provide feedback. No historical context. If you aren't in solidarity with those of us fed up of dealing with this shit since birth then the best feedback from you is literally nothing at all.

Well thats just sort of difficult to wrap my head around. A person can absolutely be in complete alliance with the goals of a movement and have differing views on logistics or strategy. Disagree on actions or policies. As is the case within any movement since complete solidarity on all things is not really possible. Within that context, how can an outsider ever actually show solidarity then?

A white person certainly is never going to be able to have a personal experience with this issue in the way a black person will, but I don't think that automatically invalidates their feedback or makes them incapable of providing worthwhile feedback.

But like i said last post, most of the criticism so far has been garbage or worse.
 

PopeReal

Member
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the typical narrative hasn't changed.

But damn. Even a couple close range, point blank even, executions couldn't do it. Even the way Dallas police worked with the protesters instead of against them. Even after 5 more deaths that I thought might shock people into working towards a real solution.

But nope. The "don't bother me" crowd is still the same. And the people on social media who like the list out the reasons why people killed by cops deserve it are still doing it.

So.... good luck with trying to lecture others to leave you alone. It is about to get more inconvenient because barely anyone is listening.
 
Protest on the street and they'll say you're creating a safety hazard and possibly arrest you. Protest from your keyboard and you'll get mocked, harassed, and possibly doxxed. I don't think there is an avenue for protest that won't be met with resistance. We may as well tell protesters to whisper into their closets if we're that intent on missing the point.

Good point. Protest online, you get called a keyboard warrior, slackavist, or a "SJW". Go out in the street and protest and you get called, a rioter, or someone whose endangering lives. It's a loose/loose which is why it's pointless for people to act like there's a some magically way of protesting that will make everyone happy.
 

greatgeek

Banned
This is a popular myth, and the second sentence is an outright falsehood on top of that. Rights and equal protections before the law are more often than not only made possible by cascading disruptive events in society forcing the hands of government- and very often over the wishes of a very significant percentage of the population. Something on the order of 900,000 Americans had to die before black people could be even considered people. Disruptive marches, protests, and riots had to happen before Jim Crow was dismantled and the Civil Rights Act was passed. National guardsmen had to protect black students going to fucking school before white people would accept the end of segregation in schools.

Crediting power to tone is a fundamental misapplication of history. Disruption of the day-to-day workings of the system is the power that forces these changes- people throwing their own lives into the cogs of the system until it either must reform or break.
I understand that some change is not the product of popular sovereignty. I meant to say that the ordinary political process (which, presumably, policing reform will depend on) doesn't produce results without something that resembles a majority of the population. I don't think any of the historical examples you cite refute this or prove that minority disruption itself can be a substitute for majority support. If what you say were true, federal civil rights legislation was not needed to end segregation and "massive resistance" by white Southerners.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
The facebook post I had to make today due to the sheer number of stupid reposts and likes I've encountered:

Me said:
Ok, because this is getting absolutely ridiculous, I think I'm going to have to address this.

We can all agree that in Saudi Arabia women are an oppressed and subjugated group. The degree to which they are subjugated and oppressed can be argued all day, but it is fair to say at minimum, they do not enjoy the same rights and freedoms as their male counterparts. Now imagine if a group of Saudi activists started a campaign labelled "All Saudi Women Lives Matter", and then you have another group of mostly Saudi men respond with, "no All Saudi Lives Matter." What exactly is the purpose behind these mostly Saudi men in saying something like that? They live in a country/society/region that has catered to their demographic for thousands of years. What else besides ignorance or a drive to drown out the voices of these activists would compel these Saudi men to make such proclamations?

Imagine if when the World Wildlife Foundation makes a statement calling people to action in saving the lives of endangered animals, someone retorted with, "yeah but all animal lives matter!" Would we not think that person to be a high functioning idiot for making a statement so lacking in reason and intellect? We would all be shaking our heads and laughing.

Female infanticide is a major problem in many parts of the world. If someone were to start a movement calling attention to why the lives of baby girls are important, but they are then shouted down by people disingenuously arguing that "no, all baby lives matter," how incredibly irritating would that be? For starters, I can't for the life of me recall hearing a news story or report where a baby was aborted because its parents received the "unfortunate" news that they were going to have a baby boy. There is only one reason to retort in such manner. It is to spread disinformation and try to steer the course of dialogue in an area that simply maintains the status quo.

My father comes from a country where the majority of the population are Muslim. But in this country, people of non Muslim origin are oppressed and live at the mercy of a population that can make their lives miserable at the drop of a hat. If person from that community were to stand up and say that their lives mattered, and I yell out proudly, "all the lives of the people in this country matter", do you not realise how utterly despicable it would be for me to do that? The government of my father's home country was founded by people like me. The majority of people living there are like me. The institutions and systems in that country were designed from the get go to work in the favour of people like me. To then turn around and make it seem like the non Muslim person and I enjoy the same status and are treated the same by society and our government, is naive at best, and being a calculating asshole at worst.

It's not rocket science people. It doesn't take much brain power to realise that stating that one particular thing is important doesn't negate that other things are also important. But when the other things aren't in an equally perilous situation, it begs the question what is the need for you to make the point you're trying to make?

The lives of White Americans as a group has ALWAYS mattered in the United States of America. But the same has never been true for minorities. You can pinpoint the exact moments in history when the lives of minority groups mattered little if at all in America. You can say, "in that place, on that date, at that time, the lives of Native/African/Latino/Asian Americans did not matter." Whether it is slavery, the Trail of Tears, Jim Crow, the burning of Black Wall Street, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, Japanese American internment, the experience of being a Muslim and/or Brown American in the 00s, etc. There is no point in American history where White Americans have ever been treated in such manner. So when the overwhelming majority of people saying, "ALL LIVES MATTER" just so happen to be White Americans, you're left wondering what game is being played here?

Maybe it's because I'm not American that this stuff makes me scratch my head. Or perhaps I should stop being so interested in sociology and history. Because the more you know of that, the more certain people's comments and opinions become dumber and asinine :/

*End Rant.

Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken in my assessment in what this whole "All lives matter" thing is about.
 

kirblar

Member
There's simply no upside to going onto an interstate. The goal of a protest is to draw attention and create change. Moving onto an interstate is all downside because the extra attention you draw is all negative and feeds straight into narratives that should not be getting free hand-outs via unforced errors.
 

PopeReal

Member
There's simply no upside to going onto an interstate. The goal of a protest is to draw attention and create change. Moving onto an interstate is all downside because the extra attention you draw is all negative and feeds straight into narratives that should not be getting free hand-outs via unforced errors.

So draw attention. But not too much attention. Because then America will view you negatively. Which they already do. But do your best to be nice to them.
 

kirblar

Member
So draw attention. But not too much attention. Because then America will view you negatively. Which they already do. But do your best to be nice to them.
No. It's simpler than that: Make sure the enemy can't position themselves as the heroes in the narrative. Let them be the villains- that picture is worth more than any interstate blockade would be.
 
The facebook post I had to make today due to the sheer number of stupid reposts and likes I've encountered:



Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken in my assessment in what this whole "All lives matter" thing is about.

No, you have it just about right. Somebody in another thread (or maybe this one) pointed out that #allllivesmatter is just the latest in a long line of activist movements by oppressed groups having their names and terminology co-opted by those who prefer the status quo as a way to silence or mock them.

"What about White History Month?"
"Where's my Straight Pride Parade?"
"Yeah, but look at misandry!"
 

The Kree

Banned
No. It's simpler than that: Make sure the enemy can't position themselves as the heroes in the narrative. Let them be the villains- that picture is worth more than any interstate blockade would be.

In other words, be perfect. You think this is reasonable advice to give to people who can't win for losing.
 
No. It's simpler than that: Make sure the enemy can't position themselves as the heroes in the narrative. Let them be the villains- that picture is worth more than any interstate blockade would be.

People are getting killed for no reason other than being black or a minority at the wrong place and time and somehow a movement about people not senselessly getting killed and police accountability somehow becomes the villain if they block traffic?
 
The facebook post I had to make today due to the sheer number of stupid reposts and likes I've encountered:

Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken in my assessment in what this whole "All lives matter" thing is about.

I think you miss an important logical point here. With the theoretical foundation of "All lives matter" being equality, they would still support the BLM movement, because as per your post, black people certainly don't share the same practical rights as white people. So, supporting BLM is in fact, supporting the idea that all lives matter and are equal. If one uses the ALM idea as a reactionary response to someone talking about BLM, they HEAVILY infer that the treatment of black people is normal or not a big deal. As a result, anyone who truly supports the idea of ALM thinks that the BLM movement is a positive, and anyone getting pushy about ALM either doesn't believe that blacks are treated in the ways described (ignorance/extreme levels of distrusting media), or actively possesses hostility towards black people.
 
"Play smart" is a far cry from "Be perfect"

But when they, or anyone people can associate with the protesters, make a single mistake, people undermine their cause by calling them bad people. So to do what you asked for, they would have to be perfect.
 

kirblar

Member
People are getting killed for no reason other than being black or a minority at the wrong place and time and somehow a movement about people not senselessly getting killed and police accountability somehow becomes the villain if they block traffic?
Yes, because it's viewed as a public safety issue (fire/medical/risk of accidents) if it involves an interstate.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Yes, because it's viewed as a public safety issue (fire/medical/risk of accidents) if it involves an interstate.

So what are these "smarter" ways to achieve their goals?

Genuinely curious. Lets take Baton Rouge, what would your plan of action have been?
 

The Kree

Banned
"Play smart" is a far cry from "Be perfect"

You've been pretty vague about what this smart play is - all you've said is that it doesn't involve blocking traffic.

There is no measure they can take that hasn't been tried that won't be criticized or undermined at some point. Voting is an example of a smart play. It's nonviolent, nondisruptive, orderly, perfectly legal. And yet some state governments have gone so far as to try to prevent black people from voting in some areas. There is literally no move they can make that won't be met with resistance.

The upside to blocking traffic is that it creates the disruption necessary to spark change. You inconvenience just enough people to make them wanna get this whole thing over with. That's the way it works. If a traffic jam is enough to make someone turn on all black Americans, I don't think they were ever going to be an ally.
 

kirblar

Member
So what are these "smarter" ways to achieve their goals?

Genuinely curious. Lets take Baton Rouge, what would your plan of action have been?
You're not genuinely curious when I've made it clear what I mean by that on this page.
You've been pretty vague about what this smart play is - all you've said is that it doesn't involve blocking traffic.
I have not been vague whatsoever. If you're organizing a protest, stay away from the damn interstates. It's counterproductive. There's a reason people react strongly when that is attempted, and that you don't see that reaction from every other protest that doesn't make that mistake and sticks to regular streets and roads.

"Disruption" on its own is going to do nothing. You can use it to draw attention, but once the attention's on you, you're now fighting a war of optics.

edit: To expand on this - trying to use Disruption as a primary tool of change (rather than as a signal flare to draw attention and induce change through other means) is doomed to failure w/ broad systemic issues because of the scale of the modern world. It's the same basic reason Unions lost power and leverage over the past 50 years- the world has grown and expanded, and if they stop working, their opposition can just work around them. On its own, it just doesn't do anything.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
I think you miss an important logical point here. With the theoretical foundation of "All lives matter" being equality, they would still support the BLM movement, because as per your post, black people certainly don't share the same practical rights as white people. So, supporting BLM is in fact, supporting the idea that all lives matter and are equal. If one uses the ALM idea as a reactionary response to someone talking about BLM, they HEAVILY infer that the treatment of black people is normal or not a big deal. As a result, anyone who truly supports the idea of ALM thinks that the BLM movement is a positive, and anyone getting pushy about ALM either doesn't believe that blacks are treated in the ways described (ignorance/extreme levels of distrusting media), or actively possesses hostility towards black people.

But that's what I'm trying to say. I have yet to see someone post "All Lives Matter" without also shitting on BLM.
 

MogCakes

Member
There's a reason people react strongly when that is attempted, and that you don't see that reaction from every other protest that doesn't make that mistake and sticks to regular streets and roads.

"Disruption" on its own is going to do nothing.
It's exactly that strong reaction people are going for when they protest. They know people will react strongly to it. The thought is negative attention is better than no attention at all.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
You're not genuinely curious when I've made it clear what I mean by that on this page.

I have not been vague whatsoever. If you're organizing a protest, stay away from the damn interstates. It's counterproductive. There's a reason people react strongly when that is attempted, and that you don't see that reaction from every other protest that doesn't make that mistake and sticks to regular streets and roads.

"Disruption" on its own is going to do nothing. You can use it to draw attention, but once the attention's on you, you're now fighting a war of optics.
I do not see any specific protest strategies listed out by you. Just criticisms against certain protesting strategies. You don't need to get antagonistic. Foolish of me to think you were actually wanting to conversate about this at a more productive level. Moving the conversation from tearing down to how to build it right in your mind

However if you do feel like answering my question I will gladly continue the discussion from there.
 
"Disruption" on its own is going to do nothing. You can use it to draw attention, but once the attention's on you, you're now fighting a war of optics.

Disruption is far from the only thing BLM does but meetings with legislators, raising money for the families of victims, and sharing of campaign goals isn't making the news though despite the effort on BLMs part.
 

kirblar

Member
Disruption is far from the only thing BLM does but meetings with legislators, raising money for the families of victims, and sharing of campaign goals isn't making the news though despite the effort on BLMs part.
Correct- I'm not saying they aren't doing that. That was a philosophical point on what you can get out of disruption as a tool. On a micro level, you can leverage it directly. (Leaving aside a quality judgement over some of their demands, the Toronto pride parade's an example of this.) On a macro one, it needs to be translated into other means of action.
I do not see any specific protest strategies listed out by you. Just criticisms against certain protesting strategies. You don't need to get antagonistic. Foolish of me to think you were actually wanting to conversate about this at a more productive level. Moving the conversation from tearing down to how to build it right in your mind

However if you do feel like answering my question I will gladly continue the discussion from there.
The goal is not to tear it down. The goal is to have it leave a tool that always burns you in the toolbox instead of hoping it'll work the next time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom