• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PS4 Pro provides checkerboard rendering in hardware - no cost to devs

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I love how "checkerboard rendering" is popping up in all kinds of threads now. New buzzword.

Its not a buzzword, its an actual fixed function technique supported and accelerated by the GPU. Nobody expects it to get to 4K fidelity, nobody expects miracles for the presentation beyond the original intent of said technique, that is, providing a nice compromise and scaling much easier to 4K displays than a lower native res.

I would say the use of the term is quite reasonable.
 

onQ123

Member
There is also more hardware on the GPU I'm guessing that it's mostly just a DPU with special task processors.

I hope there is something for lighting built into the hardware.
 

onQ123

Member
Can someone explain the pipeline? Does it work like this:

1. Native 1800p image
2. Checker board prediction
3. Hardware based filter for artifact control
4. Final image displayed


I really wish we could see a video explaining how the dedicated hardware helps eliminates the artifacts created by the checkerboard rendering. Also how similar is this technique to the reporjection used in titles like Killzone, Quantum Break, and Rainbow Six.

I think 1800P will be the final render output for games that are 900P on PS4 & not the native resolution before the checkerboard rendering.

I spoke on this back in April before any information came out about Neo checkerboard rendering

If the 2x2 up-rendering algorithm is system level it will probably take it to 3200 x 1800 & upscale it to 4K or down scale it to 1080p.

I think 1080P PS4 games will be 2160P checkerboard rendered PS4 Pro games when using the prefixed algorithm,
 

Venom Fox

Banned
You say games like the witness can't hit 4K 30fps on PS4 Pro but Bound can already render at 2688 x 1512 60fps on PS4 for PSVR.
What? The Witness Devs have stated they aren't hitting 4K native. Bound? I didn't talk about Bound, I don't know why this has been brought up.

Look. onQ, I was wrong and right about things. You were right and wrong about things.

Posting things (my posts) from over a month ago when I didn't have a clue about the hardware is silly. You haven't included any of my posts that clarified after I learned more and I was agreeing with you and others on checkerboard rending and games hitting near 4K IQ. I don't even know why you're still arguing with me?
No, it's obvious you don't understand the technique at all. Here, some rounded off math. Native 1080p samples 2M pixels to create the framebuffer. Native 4K samples 8M pixels to create the framebuffer. This checkerboard rendering splits the difference and samples about 4M pixels and then generates the rest by referencing buffers and past frames that contain additional information. At minimum you get twice as much "REAL" visual information as 1080p, and usually more than that because the algorithms are pretty sophisticated at extrapolating more accurately.

The Quantum Break method is different. They never sample more than 720p (~1M) new pixels in a single frame and in motion the temporal reconstruction breaks badly which is why you see lots of aliasing and can easily pixel count a screen at 720p.
Cool. Thanks for this. I was just going off what 99% of others were stating yesterday.
 
The Last of Us Remastered runs at native 3840x2160 in 30hz mode. Smite is also native. It stands to reason that there will be some games that achieve it. It might be the exception not the rule but to say that "no AAA games are native 4k on PS4Pro" is flat out untrue.
Any game can achieve it. It's just whether they think the graphical sacrifices are worth it.
Would you prefer much better visuals or a slightly higher IQ?
 

onQ123

Member
What? The Witness Devs have stated they aren't hitting 4K native. Bound? I didn't talk about Bound, I don't know why this has been brought up.

Look. onQ, I was wrong and right about things. You were right and wrong about things.

Posting things (my posts) from over a month ago when I didn't have a clue about the hardware is silly. You haven't included any of my posts that clarified after I learned more and I was agreeing with you and others on checkerboard rending and games hitting near 4K IQ. I don't even know why you're still arguing with me?

Cool. Thanks for this. I was just going off what 99% of others were stating yesterday.

LOL I wasn't posting to point a finger & say you was wrong I was explaining the disagreement wasn't about AAA not being 4K it was about you saying that AAA would only be 1080P.

Also I showed you Bound can run at a higher resolution than 1440P on PS4 because you used the Witness to say that even games like the Witness can't run at 4K on PS4 Pro. The Witness is 900p on PS4 so why would you use that to say that other games can't run at 4K on PS4 Pro?
 

Metfanant

Member
However, you did say that no AAA games would be native 4K. When TLOU Remastered was suggested, you disqualified it because it's from last gen. Now someone has brought up ESO, which is from this gen and native 4K. So it doesn't seem you're correct. Unless you're going to keep adding more requirements to your list, which is kind of his point.

I don't consider either of those games to be AAA games...TLoU is if we were talking about PS3 games, but not PS4

It proves native 4k rendering on PS4P. Are you dense or something?

That never needed to be proven, we've known that lesser demanding titles could be 4k from the get go...
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There's already a term for that: interpolation. See also 1080i resolution.
Whether interpolation is used to fill in the missing signal is not so important, the important part is you produce a lower-res fb, which then ends up as a higher-res fb.

I'm an idiot, but wouldn't this be 1800i? Me dumb. Fascinating stuff, though. I am really interested to see how this works and have my eye on the xbr 850d.
Actually, you're right - interlaced imaging works in a very similar manner, but here the pattern makes better use of the temporal aspect, compared to liner-interlaced or column-interlaced patters.
 

KOHIPEET

Member
So most ps4 pro games will render at 1800p native resolution and then upscale that to 2160p right?

That means there should be some gpu power remaining to slightly increase texture/effects quality compared to OG Ps4. Shouldn't there?

Also 1800p isn't that far from 2160p right? Coupled with a good AA solution, that should produce an image quality fairly close to native, IMO.

I'm gonna have to figure out a way to experience this in person. I wonder if stores that sell PS4 pros will take the effort to set up 4k tv's for customers to check it out.

I was really skeptic after the presentation, but I'm slowly beginning to embrace the Pro.
 

dr_rus

Member
Its not a buzzword, its an actual fixed function technique supported and accelerated by the GPU. Nobody expects it to get to 4K fidelity, nobody expects miracles for the presentation beyond the original intent of said technique, that is, providing a nice compromise and scaling much easier to 4K displays than a lower native res.

I would say the use of the term is quite reasonable.

Very doubtful.
 
I don't consider either of those games to be AAA games....
The usual criteria for AAA are: high budget (several millions of dollars), big publisher, retail release, and full price. ESO meets all of those.

Of course, it's perfectly okay to use your own idiosyncratic definition. But then I think the onus is on you to clearly explain it from the start. Keeping it solely private, and saying "No, that doesn't fit" as possible counterexamples are provided breaks the discussion. Because you might as well be continually altering the definition to preserve your argument.
 

onQ123

Member
Whether interpolation is used to fill in the missing signal is not so important, the important part is you produce a lower-res fb, which then ends up as a higher-res fb.


Actually, you're right - interlaced imaging works in a very similar manner, but here the pattern makes better use of the temporal aspect, compared to liner-interlaced or column-interlaced patters.



Part of the up-rendering is converting interlaced signals into progressive signals


from the patent

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=200517084&postcount=12160

I call it uprendering because it's uprendering.


AnVyhdC.png




http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2016/0005344.html

The uprendering produces images and/or frames at higher definition and/or at increased resolutions over the source images or frames. Further, the uprendering at least in part enables sub-pixel-accurate adjustments to an uprendered image while retaining an accurate model of the original legacy application rendering process. Further, some embodiments retain the deterministic method of point-sampling that many legacy titles employ in order to be rendered correctly. Combination of multiple rendered images with sub-pixel offsets and the coalescing of these images results in a single higher-resolution uprendered result. The reference image, which in many embodiments is effectively the original non-adjusted image, is generated as a non-redundant step of the uprendering process, and can be used as source data for functions of the legacy application that may expect original image data (e.g., reading back pre-processed image and/or texture data, and the like), and/or may be used in generating improved post-processing effects (e.g., a motion vector upscaler, edge smoothing, etc.). Additionally, in some embodiments, the uprendering retains the original (legacy) render target size and vector scale, while altering fixed-point sampling offsets. One of the advantages of this approach is that it retains the deterministic method of point-sampling that some legacy titles utilize in order to be rendered correctly.

Further, some embodiments utilize the uprendering in performing progressive upconversion to convert interlaced multimedia signals into a progressive output signal. As is known in the art, interlaced content and/or titles typically render a frame as two half-resolution fields or images per 30 Hz frame. For example, many legacy computer electronic games were developed to be displayed on cathode ray tube (CRT) televisions and accordingly produce frames by displaying an even image (i.e., an image that displays the even rows of pixels of a frame) and subsequently displaying an odd image (i.e., an image that displays the odd rows of pixels of the same frame). Moreover, at least some interlaced legacy titles often use a half-pixel shift between images or fields of a frame, for example, to reduce the amount of jitter perceived by the user. Accordingly, a [640×448] resolution frame is displayed as an even image that includes the even rows of the frame, and an odd image that includes the odd rows of the frame (which in some instances includes a half pixel shift, often in the Y direction). For example, a [640×448] resolution frame may be represented as:





So most ps4 pro games will render at 1800p native resolution and then upscale that to 2160p right?

That means there should be some gpu power remaining to slightly increase texture/effects quality compared to OG Ps4. Shouldn't there?

Also 1800p isn't that far from 2160p right? Coupled with a good AA solution, that should produce an image quality fairly close to native, IMO.

I'm gonna have to figure out a way to experience this in person. I wonder if stores that sell PS4 pros will take the effort to set up 4k tv's for customers to check it out.

I was really skeptic after the presentation, but I'm slowly beginning to embrace the Pro.

No where has it been said that most games will be rendered at 1800p that's just the resolution that Sony told devs to get in touch with them if they couldn't get their game above.

Very doubtful.


Well you are in a thread about it being part of the hardware :)

My guess is that the task was designed into the DPU

Actually said this back in March


Up-rendering DSP in the DPU I'm calling it now. (Well I been calling it)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=199114820&postcount=907
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I think 1800P will be the final render output for games that are 900P on PS4 & not the native resolution before the checkerboard rendering.

I spoke on this back in April before any information came out about Neo checkerboard rendering



I think 1080P PS4 games will be 2160P checkerboard rendered PS4 Pro games when using the prefixed algorithm,

I'm predicting the same for most games 900p>1800p
1080p>2160p
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Very doubtful.

Do you want to bet?

Actually, no, we care a lot about it. We are trying to carefully make decisions based on what is going to provide the highest image quality.

For example, we think doubling MSAA will give us a better result than rendering double the number of pixels and downscaling -- it's faster, and leaves more performance on the table for other features.

Examples of other features are things I mentioned in the posting, like having a longer streaming distance before the high-res meshes turn into low-res LODs. I think that kind of LOD popping has a much bigger effect on visual quality than some extra pixels that just get downscaled again anyway. So if we are able to put some of the GPU power into that, we feel it is the better choice.

HOWEVER, we might not be able to increase the LOD radius very much, because that also requires memory, and we are already pushing the boundaries of the console's memory. In that case we might have GPU power to burn, in which case maybe we might render at a resolution higher than 1080p, with 4x MSAA also, and then downscale.

But if I announce that right now, and then we end up not doing it, we will get a lot of people yelling at us for betraying them. So what I announced is the minimum that we can definitely do. And, as I said in the posting, none of this is completely final, and we will announce the final tech specs when the patch is done.

It seems like people appreciate this kind of posting and getting solid details on what a PS4 Pro patch means. That's great ... and some people are wondering why most developers don't do this. Well, it's because sometimes there's no way to win. If you announce one set of specs, people will try to punish you for not doing enough. If you announce another set of specs, and fail to meet them, people will try to punish you harder at that time.

If you want more of this kind of honest communication, please chill and give developers at least a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. We are working hard on this stuff. If people just go and look for random things to get mad about, then you're basically just punishing developers for communicating at all, so they won't.

Thanks for the great post, Jonathan. Is it fair to say that checkerboard rendering, which is the big new technique everyone is talking about since yesterday, is not necessarily the best use of PS4 Pro's additional power in all games?

I think it depends on the particular game and engine. Different rendering pipelines are structured differently; for some pipelines, the cost of adding checkerboard rendering would be very low, because they are already computing a lot of the information that checkerboard rendering needs. For other pipelines the cost might be higher. In our case we're just not sure of the total cost yet, but we think it is probably high enough that we may prefer to do a straight upscale. But we're not completely sure.

(It is true that, as Sony has announced, the PS4 Pro provides hardware support for checkerboard rendering that makes it faster than it would otherwise be. I think in some places I have seen the rumor that checkerboard is completely free, but I would consider that an exaggeration: the cost is going to vary per game. Unfortunately due to NDAs I can't provide details; I can't say anything more about Sony technologies than what they have announced. It is definitely true that if you had a game running on the original PS4, and the developer wants to do the most straightforward thing to make the game look better on the Pro, that developer could enable checkerboard rendering and the game will look better and run faster; so it's "free" in that sense. But if you are going to get picky about how you are spending the GPU memory and bandwidth of the new machine, then there are tradeoffs here, like with anything.)
 

digdug2k

Member
I love reading these things, but I always have to remind myself that with the setup I have at home, I can't actually see the difference between 720P and 1080P on my TV.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Part of the up-rendering is converting interlaced signals into progressive signals


from the patent

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=200517084&postcount=12160
Ok, if you want to call it 'up-rendering', I'm fine with that. As long as we agree the so-produced image does not feature the full-res amount of information some good deal of the time, namely whenever there's sufficient motion involved, breaking the temporal signal coherence.

Do you want to bet?
What the dev is saying is that this technique is not free, but it can give a net gain in many occasions. I.e. not necessarily always.
 

onQ123

Member
Ok, if you want to call it 'up-rendering', I'm fine with that. As long as we agree the so-produced image does not feature the full-res amount of information some good deal of the time, namely whenever there's sufficient motion involved, breaking the temporal signal coherence.


What the dev is saying is that this technique is not free, but it can give a net gain in many occasions. I.e. not necessarily always.


In the end it will be 8294400 unique pixels in the final screen buffer. I never said it would be the same as brute force 4K
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
In the end it will be 8294400 unique pixels in the final screen buffer. I never said it would be the same as brute force 4K
Not sure what you mean by '4k bruteforce' but 4k checkered will be 8294400 unique pixels the same way 1080i is 2073600 unique pixels.
 

onQ123

Member
Not sure what you mean by '4k bruteforce' but 4k checkered will be 8294400 unique pixels the same way 1080i is 2073600 unique pixels.


There is no 2160i it's being converted to a progressive scan in the final buffer so what you're saying isn't accurate.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There is no 2160i it's being converted to a progressive scan in the final buffer so what you're saying isn't accurate.
It doesn't matter what it's being converted to; there are TVs that can deinterlace interlaced signal - that doesn't make the latter progressive.

4K checkered does not have the full frame material unless the picture could be fully reprojected, and that could happen only at still frames. Exactly the same is true for interlaced video signal - the picture is 'progressive' as long as nothing moves on the screen. Ergo my analogy.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
It's not true 4k, by definition, but it's definitely not comparable to the way 1080i works
It is exactly comparable. The interlacing pattern is different.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
It is exactly comparable. The interlacing pattern is different.
I thought that at first when I heard about Killzone MP's reconstruction but it still puts out a progressive image. Much like the comparisons to upscaling, the interlacing ones are not accurate despite sharing some of the same principles. Not native though, of course.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
It is exactly comparable. The interlacing pattern is different.

It's more complicated than that depending on the technique. A upscale involving temporal re-sampling will have more valid samples per frame than an interlaced will, the degree depending on the temporal coherence. It's not a interlacing pattern in that context, or even a fixed one if a temporal element is involved.

Like, I see where you're coming from, a succession of two interlaced frames is 're-using' samples also, but it's a relatively pretty crude predecessor to some of these other techniques if you want to put it that way.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I thought that at first when I heard about Killzone MP's reconstruction but it still puts out a progressive image. Much like the comparisons to upscaling, the interlacing ones are not accurate despite sharing some of the same principles. Not native though, of course.
A still interlaced image gets 100% reporjection, naturally. You can make the reporjection more robust (so it works for more cases than still images) and change the interlacing pattern from axial to checkered. But the principles are identical.

It's more complicated than that depending on the technique. A upscale involving temporal re-sampling will have more valid samples per frame than an interlaced will, the degree depending on the temporal coherence. It's not a interlacing pattern in that context, or even a fixed one if a temporal element is involved.

Like, I see where you're coming from, a succession of two interlaced frames is 're-using' samples also, but it's a relatively pretty crude predecessor to some of these other techniques if you want to put it that way.
The thing is, current techniques are still quite crude - it's quite easy for the whole scheme to fall apart. Surely per-pixel motion vectors and z-buffer checks improve things compared to 'dumb' interlaced images, but the situations where those aids are useless are way too many to call the whole thing anything more than good old deinterlacing.
 

onQ123

Member
It doesn't matter what it's being converted to; there are TVs that can deinterlace interlaced signal - that doesn't make the latter progressive.

4K checkered does not have the full frame material unless the picture could be fully reprojected, and that could happen only at still frames. Exactly the same is true for interlaced video signal - the picture is 'progressive' as long as nothing moves on the screen. Ergo my analogy.

The console doesn't send out the checkerboard render it resolve it all into a final output frame that is 4K or whatever the output buffer will be. kinda like tile based rendering
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
The console doesn't send out the checkerboard render it resolve it all into a final output frame that is 4K or whatever the output buffer will be. kinda like tile based rendering
I never said the console sends a non-full frame to the tv. I said the reporjection that the console does is to the same effect as what tv deinterlacers do to interlaced signal.
 
The real puzzle here is what kind of h/w support for res reconstruction they are talking about as for it to be effective it should have access to basic frame buffer components and thus it must basically be a shader core. Having a separate shader core or even a CU reserved for this seems like a total waste as some games might opt to not use it and implement their own solution instead - this h/w will be blocked for them in that case which is pretty stupid. I wonder if by h/w support they mean something in the ROPs or geometry engines which would help with such pixel interpolation?
Actually, GCN4 allows you to reserve compute units for latency-sensitive tasks like audio. (PDF p.6) Also, it seems that not everyone has access to this functionality though. "Note: AMD delivers the CU Reservation feature to AMD approved partners via the driver." (emphasis mine) As I understand it, features Sony co-develop with AMD aren't available for XBox, so this may be one of those features. Sounds like AMD's vSKIP mode may be another such feature, for example, being a "secret" feature only available on one console. (Not even PC, it sounds like.)

Anyway, I've no idea if Sony are reserving any CUs for this particular functionality, but it's certainly both possible and optional for them to do so, and it seems there's a fairly good chance such techniques won't be available on Scorpio (and possibly PC too). Their uprendering patent did describe a potential hardware solution, but in general, it didn't really seem to be describing checkerboard rendering, so I'm interested to hear Cerny break it down.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
A still interlaced image gets 100% reporjection, naturally. You can make the reporjection more robust (so it works for more cases than still images) and change the interlacing pattern from axial to checkered. But the principles are identical.


The thing is, current techniques are still quite crude - it's quite easy for the whole scheme to fall apart. Surely per-pixel motion vectors and z-buffer checks improve things compared to 'dumb' interlaced images, but the situations where those aids are useless are way too many to call the whole thing anything more than good old deinterlacing.

You could put them in a same root family of sample re-use, but I think they're too different in implementation and quality to not distinguish them beyond that. While you could oversell the result you could also undersell the difference. While not a perfect analogy, I'd compare it to something like 'dumb' screen space reflections or GI vs something like 'smarter' deep-buffer techniques that capture more surrounding scene information - in the sense that one can say these are both approximations to an ideal, but it would be too unsubtle to not distinguish between them in discussion.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You could put them in a same root family of sample re-use, but I think they're too different in implementation and quality to not distinguish them beyond that. While you could oversell the result you could also undersell the difference. While not a perfect analogy, I'd compare it to something like 'dumb' screen space reflections or GI vs something like 'smarter' deep-buffer techniques that capture more surrounding scene information - in the sense that one can say these are both approximations to an ideal, but it would be too unsubtle to not distinguish between them in discussion.
Sure. I don't want to leave the impression I want to undersell the technique. Heck, I've used checkered rendering myself when trying to pull off imagery the underlying hw is simply not capable of. All I want to emphasize in this discussion is that checkered rendering, even with state-of-the-art reprojection, is an approximation of the full-frame rendering. Whether you want to call it up-rendering or up-scaling with 'sophisticated image reconstruction' - I don't mind any of those. But at the end of the day, signal theory is signal theory, and you can get anything from as little as 50% of your image info, to as much as 100% of your image info, based on a gazillion of factors, many of which work against you.
 

onQ123

Member
Actually, GCN4 allows you to reserve compute units for latency-sensitive tasks like audio. (PDF p.6) Also, it seems that not everyone has access to this functionality though. "Note: AMD delivers the CU Reservation feature to AMD approved partners via the driver." (emphasis mine) As I understand it, features Sony co-develop with AMD aren't available for XBox, so this may be one of those features. Sounds like AMD's vSKIP mode may be another such feature, for example, being a "secret" feature only available on one console. (Not even PC, it sounds like.)

Anyway, I've no idea if Sony are reserving any CUs for this particular functionality, but it's certainly both possible and optional for them to do so, and it seems there's a fairly good chance such techniques won't be available on Scorpio (and possibly PC too). Their uprendering patent did describe a potential hardware solution, but in general, it didn't really seem to be describing checkerboard rendering, so I'm interested to hear Cerny break it down.

It's funny that when I talked about this in 2013 people thought I was crazy & I was even banned from BY3D because they didn't understand the same way people acted here when they didn't understand uprendering or that we could have 4K consoles this generation.


Could Sony create fixed function pipelines for the PS4 even after release?


Can AMD GPUs implement 'hardware' fixed function pipelines through firmware?

amd-liquidvr-new-features-cu-reservation.jpg


arch7.jpg
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Sure. I don't want to leave the impression I want to undersell the technique. Heck, I've used checkered rendering myself when trying to pull off imagery the underlying hw is simply not capable of. All I want to emphasize in this discussion is that checkered rendering, even with state-of-the-art reprojection, is an approximation of the full-frame rendering. Whether you want to call it up-rendering or up-scaling with 'sophisticated image reconstruction' - I don't mind any of those. But at the end of the day, signal theory is signal theory, and you can get anything from as little as 50% of your image info, to as much as 100% of your image info, based on a gazillion of factors, many of which work against you.

Yeah, that is a totally fair description.

Pathological (and optimal) cases exist in both and share similar characteristics, but there's a swathe in the middle of that 50-100 where results will differ in many cases. If we put exactly the same label on it it's too easily confusing I think. Obviously when in your own understanding, 'interlacing' encompasses a range of techniques and results it makes sense, but to a listener without that context and only the experience of something like 1080i or whatever, it's probably going to be a bit misleading about the subtleties - and differences they can expect - between the techniques. I think it's fair enough to have different labels for different approaches in the 'family' of reconstruction/upscaling/re-sampling techniques as long as we understand that they're all in the realm of better or worse approximations and none are perfect.
 

martino

Member
so the easy for dev on pro is same as ps4 when 1080p and same + hardware checkboard when 4k
the cost is not clear to me ...is it processing or $$$ here ? or the two ?
 

martino

Member
It's funny that when I talked about this in 2013 people thought I was crazy & I was even banned from BY3D because they didn't understand the same way people acted here when they didn't understand uprendering or that we could have 4K consoles this generation.
[/IMG]

Persistant even when Sony and Cerny don't say ps4 pro is 4K console...
 

onQ123

Member
Persistant even when Sony and Cerny don't say ps4 pro is 4K console...

Say what?

PS4 Pro: Basic Questions

Q: What is PS4 Pro?

PS4 Pro is a high-end version of PS4 that is capable of outputting 4K graphics, HDR support, smoother and more stable framerates, and 4K video streaming. Upon its launch, PS4 Pro will make supported PS4 games look better and run more smoothly, while giving developers an upgraded toolset to create even richer, more detailed game worlds. How these powerful new tools are used is up to individual developers and the experience they are creating. You may have seen some of these examples during PlayStation Meeting 2016.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/09/08/ps4-pro-the-ultimate-faq/
 

onQ123

Member
"Capable" is the key word here.

But, yeah, it's a 4K capable console, even if they didn't say it on stage.


Who would be crazy enough to think that you would get 4K at all times? bringing up the fact that they said capable don't really make sense.



even if it was 10TF someone could still make a game that isn't 4K.
 

onQ123

Member
If Sony is smart 4K rendering is not the only thing that they are accelerating in hardware.



I think the most important thing that should have made it's way to a offloading processor is lighting & also I hope they did some things to help with volume rendering on the hardware side.


I'm not sure but it seem like a vision/image processor should be able to help out with lighting & shadows plus do some post processing like noise reduction & so on more efficiently
 

Metfanant

Member
It's funny that when I talked about this in 2013 people thought I was crazy & I was even banned from BY3D because they didn't understand the same way people acted here when they didn't understand uprendering or that we could have 4K consoles this generation.

People don't understand uprendering, because it's not really a thing...and the PS4 Pro doesn't do it...
 

dr_rus

Member
Well you are in a thread about it being part of the hardware :)

My guess is that the task was designed into the DPU

Actually said this back in March

I'm in a thread about Sony saying it being somehow a part of the h/w. Not the same thing as it actually being that.

Do you want to bet?

To bet on what exactly?

Actually, GCN4 allows you to reserve compute units for latency-sensitive tasks like audio. (PDF p.6) Also, it seems that not everyone has access to this functionality though. "Note: AMD delivers the CU Reservation feature to AMD approved partners via the driver." (emphasis mine) As I understand it, features Sony co-develop with AMD aren't available for XBox, so this may be one of those features. Sounds like AMD's vSKIP mode may be another such feature, for example, being a "secret" feature only available on one console. (Not even PC, it sounds like.)

Anyway, I've no idea if Sony are reserving any CUs for this particular functionality, but it's certainly both possible and optional for them to do so, and it seems there's a fairly good chance such techniques won't be available on Scorpio (and possibly PC too). Their uprendering patent did describe a potential hardware solution, but in general, it didn't really seem to be describing checkerboard rendering, so I'm interested to hear Cerny break it down.

As I've said, this would be a terrible idea.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
To bet on what exactly?

You said it was not encoded into the hardware. We have Sony and devs directly saying that hardware acceleration for implementation of this specific technique is encoded into the hardware.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
You said it was not encoded into the hardware. We have Sony and devs directly saying that hardware acceleration for implementation of this specific technique is encoded into the hardware.
I missed the part of it being a fixed function pipeline within the hardware.
It certainly wasn't part of that quote.

It might be something that they are pushing internally and given basic implementation source for, but it would be stupid to have fixed function pipeline for. (Even more so than current tessellation hardware.)
 

onQ123

Member
I missed the part of it being a fixed function pipeline within the hardware.
It certainly wasn't part of that quote.

It might be something that they are pushing internally and given basic implementation source for, but it would be stupid to have fixed function pipeline for. (Even more so than current tessellation hardware.)

Why?


From what I know of DPUs you can design these task specific accelerators in a small amount of time & even update them with microcode after you have them in your product

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwq-Go44Y5U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdp_mwD7aUM

AZn0YYw.png


dHOMUMt.png
 
Top Bottom