Support NeoGAF

[BONKERS]

Yeah I noticed that TLOU runs worse in 60fps mode. I don't understand why they went for 1800p instead of 1620p, difference in IQ would be negligible and the frame rate would have been better.

It makes sense for 1080p output. As 1620p is 2.25x OGSSAA to 1080p.
4k is a 1.44x increase over 1800p. And ~1.76x increase over 1620p. (Which is the same increase 1440p is over 1080p)
So a 32% difference in pixel count. It very well could've gained them the performance back if they are GPU limited.

Agreed. I've personally seen QA do even greater performance testing/documentation. It varies studio to studio though.

Actual QA probably has access to more and better tools to do their job though. Like debug builds that would show what is costing what per frame.

I believe you can make that case with TLOU, but Deus Ex dipping into 20s should be very noticeable to everyone

It is incredibly noticeable. If you can't notice how stuttery and janky it becomes once you drop from 30. Then that's crazy. Even if you don't know what framerate is, you can still feel it visually and in terms of controller response.

The quintessential example is MGS4 and it's online mode MGO2. There's no way you could play either and not at least feel that something feels off.

 

[Kinyou]

Its ridiculous because its just too much work to find a problem that is only really apparent to someone who has gone to the same extremes to discover it exists.

And even then, the impact and importance of the differential is entirely subjective.

I believe you can make that case with TLOU, but Deus Ex dipping into 20s should be very noticeable to everyone. To expect the games to have the same performance as on the base PS4 doesn't seem that outlandish to me. Especially when I'm playing on a 1080p tv

 

[icespide]

I believe you can make that case with TLOU, but Deus Ex dipping into 20s should be very noticeable to everyone

yep Deus Ex just seems like a bad rush job

 

[TAJ]

Edit: Another thing Tom keeps mentioning is that there is no improvement to the visuals at 1800p, just a rez boost. I don't think that's the case. Look at all that shimmering on the fences in the PS4 version of TLOUR, it's completely gone on the 1800p version and that's not on account of a rez boost alone...

No, that's exactly what it is.

 

[leng jai]

yep Deus Ex just seems like a bad rush job

If the PC version is anything to go by the PS4 probably struggled with it too. The priority for the Pro should be to make sure games that struggle on the PS4 run much smoother on the Pro otherwise what's the point? I can understand the logic with going too far with fidelity on base games that ran well in the first place, but to take a less than stellar version and make it run worse on the Pro is just silly.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Seeing 350 replies to the topic I was worried there were drops to like 15fps that stretched for entire scenes.

I still say this was an awesome job and can only get better with patches.

 

[hesido]

Maybe there should be a switch to base PS4 mode for games for those who are interested.

 

[black070]

Quick question - what upgrade, if any, has the MP received ?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Quick question - what upgrade, if any, has the MP received ?

1080p from 900p.

Edit: I'm wrong. Game was always 1080p online.

 

[icespide]

1080p from 900p.

TLOU MP was 900p?

 

[black070]

1080p from 900p.

Wasn't that Uncharted 4 ? I was under the impression this was already 1080p on the base PS4.

 

[Ushay]

PS4Pro actually never renders the game in 1080p.

It's either 1800p or 2160p.

Thread title doesn't make sense.

Right so you're saying this is actually downscaled framerate?

 

[leng jai]

Right so you're saying this is actually downscaled framerate?

Yes. You literally can't run games in base PS4 mode on the Pro right now, though they might put the option in later.

 

[Arkeband]

Maybe there should be a switch to base PS4 mode for games for those who are interested.

If the Pro is forcing unpatched games to downclock the hardware, this should be mandatory for patched games.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Wasn't that Uncharted 4 ? I was under the impression this was already 1080p on the base PS4.

My bad, confusing Naughty Dog goodness.

 

[Ranger X]

This is just a bad design choice from Naughty Dog. There's NOTHING preventing you making a games that run exactly like on PS4.
You never downsample, this is wasted power although it was probably much more quick to make if they wanted to release this thing ASAP. Still a bad decision though.

 

[bananafactory]

If the PC version is anything to go by the PS4 probably struggled with it too. The priority for the Pro should be to make sure games that struggle on the PS4 run much smoother on the Pro otherwise what's the point? I can understand the logic with going too far with fidelity on base games that ran well in the first place, but to take a less than stellar version and make it run worse on the Pro is just silly.

But that isn't what they are pushing on Pro. It's being advertised and sold as high resolution/high fidelity, not high performance. That seems to just be coming as a benefit for certain games.

Not saying it shouldn't be an option and games shouldnt run well but they've made it clear that framerate isn't their priority for Pro. I guess that's why this isn't all that surprising to me

 

[leng jai]

But that isn't what they are pushing on Pro. It's being advertised and sold as high resolution/high fidelity, not high performance. That seems to just be coming as a benefit for certain games.

Not saying it shouldn't be an option and games shouldnt run well but they've made it clear that framerate isn't their priority for Pro. I guess that's why this isn't all that surprising to me

From all reports DX looks like crap on the Pro still relatively speaking, and making it run at 25fps at times is just laughable. It's not like the game looks ultra crisp like Skyrim or TLOU anyway. "Performance" can also be interpreted as better graphics, and it seems DX basically fails in both metrics.

 

[icespide]

From all reports DX looks like crap on the Pro still relatively speaking, and making it run at 25fps at times is just laughable. It's not like the game looks ultra crisp like Skyrim or TLOU anyway. "Performance" can also be interpreted as better graphics, and it seems DX basically fails in both metrics.

to be fair, that horrible sharpening filter is mostly what makes DX look so bad

 

[bananafactory]

From all reports DX looks like crap on the Pro still relatively speaking, and making it run at 25fps at times is just laughable. It's not like the game looks ultra crisp like Skyrim or TLOU anyway. "Performance" can also be interpreted as better graphics, and it seems DX basically fails in both metrics.

Yeah I'm more speaking with regards to the other titles. Deus Ex definitely just sounds like a fuck up. Hope it's fixed soon

 

[jobboy]

an option to run games like regular ps4 uses??? are you really going mad?? buying an expensive and more powerful piece of hardware to "emulate" the cheaper and less powerful one?? why not stick and buy the regular slim instead at this point??? unbelievable how people can be so dumb!

 

[Toparaman]

Fuck this...so now shit is even more convoluted. Like you might actually want to keep a spare standard PS4 around for certain games. Ridiculous.

 

[-GJ-]

an option to run games like regular ps4 uses??? are you really going mad?? buying an expensive and more powerful piece of hardware to "emulate" the cheaper and less powerful one?? why not stick and buy the regular slim instead at this point??? unbelievable how people can be so dumb!

If you pay a premium price, don't you want your games to perform in the best way possible? It's not dumb if a game plays worse in the Pro modes.

 

[Birgitte2004]

If you pay a premium price, don't you want your games to perform in the best way possible? It's not dumb if a game plays worse in the Pro modes.

It only plays worse for those who care about one specific thing over all else, and to this day I don't understand why frameratists don't just stick with PC, because consoles will _never_ make them happy.

 

[onQ123]

Maybe there should be a switch to base PS4 mode for games for those who are interested.

Why set your goals so low? forget that they should have a firmware update that will let you set the PS4 Pro to boost mode for people who don't mind the fan noise.

 

[jett]

Would rather have the few extra frames than downsampling. Either that or a smaller resolution to downsample from.

My personal experience with downsampling on PC is that 1440p -> 1080p is pretty fantastic, and anything beyond is approaching serious diminishing returns (on a HDTV at normal viewing distance, that is).

Too bad 1080p gamers isn't the priority here.

 

[DooMAGE]

The pro console is worse than the old hardware?
Sony pls.

 

[Harp]

Finally Watched the Video. This is funny Seems like click bait. They show Tomb Raider drop one frame then say how can it possiblly run worse then the base ps4 that he developer spent an entire year optimizing for? As a person that has all systems and a pretty good pc. I can understand that even if I went out and got 1080 GTX to replace my 970 it does mean that every game will run better, in fact alot of the times with new architecture a game can require a couple of patches.

Why is DF acting like like this is new?

 

[chromatic9]

Looking at Deus Ex dropping to 20FPS on the Pro where the PS4 holds a steady 30FPS is the scenario that people should be discussing. That's NOT acceptable.

Yeah that's a major gripe for sure.

The trouble with people saying optimization is TLOU was already done a second time for OG PS4. Now they have to find all the drops at 1800p and find ways of alleviating them or drop the overall resolution just for some parts.

With new games they can do checkerboard, dynamic scaling for the GPU bound rough spots and optimize.

I'd rather cut them some slack but then this is the 60fps mode. One user might want the res brought down to where it stays above 60 at all times and another will take a few hits to render a better image overall. I'd go for the latter but if its dropping into the 50s every 10-15 minutes then the 60fps experience for my money is lost then.

Definitely should have a base mode for all games. Unpatched games do so why not just allow it if the user wants. It's also a way running with less power. You get that advantage unpatched but then lose it when they patch for Pro mode.

 

[onQ123]

The pro console is worse than the old hardware?
Sony pls.

More like some devs hit their targets in some places but didn't make sure that it held up in all situations.



I'm sure you're joking with that comment I hope you are anyway.

 

[King_Moc]

Yep we need this implemented ASAP to at least be able to defend ourselves against crappy developers.

Naughty Dog are now a 'crappy developer'. This is embarrassing. You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Lord Error]

an option to run games like regular ps4 uses??? are you really going mad?? buying an expensive and more powerful piece of hardware to "emulate" the cheaper and less powerful one?? why not stick and buy the regular slim instead at this point??? unbelievable how people can be so dumb!

What people mean is the option to run it in the same 1080p resolution that PS4 uses, but with additional GPU/CPU power being routed solely into a better performance. It's a perfectly fine request IMO. What we have instead in the case of TLOU is a game that downsamples from 1800p but the performance suffers a bit. They should IMO just downsample from a slightly lesser resolution, like 1400p instead in case the game is ran on a 1080p TV.

 

[thelastword]

The pro console is worse than the old hardware?
Sony pls.

Yes, reading this thread title, it's the impression you get. You would swear the Pro was rendering games at 1080p just like the PS4 vanilla and performing worse. If DF was so worried about such things, I wonder why DF never made a stink when ReR2 run worse on PS4 with 1080p resolution and the same graphical settings on the XB1....


It's clear here that TLOUR has no 1080p render mode on the Pro...It is also clear that TLOUR does not need a resolution so low to maintain 60fps. There are few locked 60fps games on these consoles, so don't pretend it's a normal thing that we expect from them, especially at 1800p or checkerboarded 2160p.

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

Right so you're saying this is actually downscaled framerate?

Can you show me where I mentioned the word "framerate" in my post?

 

[Netherscourge]

It was built for the PS4, taking into account the PS4's bus-width and speeds.

The PS4 Pro is just different. It'll need patching. Maybe even a "PS4" mode.

 

[Marmelade]

Finally Watched the Video. This is funny Seems like click bait. They show Tomb Raider drop one frame then say how can it possiblly run worse then the base ps4 that he developer spent an entire year optimizing for? As a person that has all systems and a pretty good pc. I can understand that even if I went out and got 1080 GTX to replace my 970 it does mean that every game will run better, in fact alot of the times with new architecture a game can require a couple of patches.

Why is DF acting like like this is new?

Yeah, no.
Assuming you're not bottlenecked by another component (CPU for example), you would see massive gains across the board.
Edit: you meant "doesn't" right?

 

[PeterLegend]

How strange, Microsoft has made it sound no patches will be necessary for xbox one and scorpio, maybe its a bigger headache hmmm

 

[Toparaman]

But that isn't what they are pushing on Pro. It's being advertised and sold as high resolution/high fidelity, not high performance.

Not quite:

Not to mention "super-charged PS4", and the very name of "Pro" itself.

 

[Kinyou]

Not quite:

Not to mention "super-charged PS4", and the very name of "Pro" itself.

Exactly. There was never a mention off tradeoff. These games are supposed to look and run the best on the Pro, or at least the same. If they run worse it goes against the whole point.

 

[Cuburt]

Didn't Sony say that devs aren't allowed to do a Pro mode that runs worse than on the PS4? Like they don't have to upgrade anything extra if they don't want but they can't make it run worse?

Coming from their own studio, this is not a good sign.

 

[Frag Waffles]

Um. What. That's not acceptable. No game should perform worse on upgraded hardware. That doesn't even make sense. Even a small bump in resolution and absolutely identical framerate is OK, but a worse framerate? Forget it, that's not an upgrade, that's a trade-off.

I was all set to go pick up a pro but I might just hold off until more concrete evidence that ALL games moving forward will totally benefit.

 

[BONKERS]

This is just a bad design choice from Naughty Dog. There's NOTHING preventing you making a games that run exactly like on PS4.
You never downsample, this is wasted power although it was probably much more quick to make if they wanted to release this thing ASAP. Still a bad decision though.

What? Why wouldn't you want better image quality if you could maintain the same framerate?

Their only bad choice was publishing a patch clearly well before it was ready and what is supposedly against the guidelines of PS4P not performing worse than OG PS4

If TLOU could be running at 60FPS at 1080p output on PS4P but also be doing >2xSSAA at the same time(With better texture filtering and everything). Then that's a great win. Especially for PS3>PS4 Ports.

The only downside left is that cutscenes are still the same in-engine offline rendered stuff. Which will look very obvious at 4k output. Same with UC

to be fair, that horrible sharpening filter is mostly what makes DX look so bad

And it could look so much better if they simply made it adjustable instead of On/Off.
Look at HomeFront The Revolution. The PC version has decent TAA and adjustable sharpening that look really great without making it look artificial, smudgy, or adding artifacts and aliasing back into the mix.

 

[Negotiator]

People who blame the CPU are ignorant. The higher the resolution is, the less the CPU matters. Not to mention that a slower CPU (@ 1.6 GHz) runs this game at 60fps already.

Alpha effects (smoke, fog, explosions etc.) are memory bandwidth intensive. The GPU units need to be fed somehow. PS4 Pro has a slightly overclocked GDDR5 pool and apparently it's not fast enough for a 4.2TF GPU. And yeah, I know about the Polaris' color compression, but it cannot do miracles...

 

[bananafactory]

Not quite:

Not to mention "super-charged PS4", and the very name of "Pro" itself.

Lol welp. My bad.

Definitely a bad look then

 

[orochi91]

What a disappointment, this was the one thing they said would not happen.

Fuck Sony and their negligence.

Now I have to keep my fingers crossed and hope this issue doesn't crop up in other titles going forward.

Social media had better pick this up and roll with it.

 

[Cuburt]

So, PS4Pro support only takes 1% extra work eh Cerny?
http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/10...ibility-require-1-additional-work-developers/

Guess that makes sense!


But seriously, hope this stuff gets fixed.

First quote I thought of. Either Naughty Dog didn't want to put in 'only' 1% extra work, or Cerny was blowing smoke.

I imagine it's the latter.

I always knew regardless of how they keep trying to downplay the amount of extra development time it takes for a Pro mode upgrade, it's not as easy as flipping a switch.

 

[8byte]

These are patched Pro games, thread is an overreaction.

I can't see this being a problem with the majority of PS4 titles. I don't even see a large number of these games when the generation is said and done having a problem.

 

[CrispyBoar]

Yikes. What's happening to games like this on PS4 Pro makes me question whatever I should just buy a PS4 slim now.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Fuck this...so now shit is even more convoluted. Like you might actually want to keep a spare standard PS4 around for certain games. Ridiculous.

Nah. It's not nearly that bad and it will only get better as devs get more familiar with the hardware.

 

[AZ Greg]

Gotta love launch like pains mid-generation!