Support NeoGAF

[Pristine_Condition]

AMD's higher-end 7xxx series cards added an H.264 encoder. I'd imagine it's that or a derivative.

I'm doubtful that it has anything to do with that, for a few reasons. In the presentation, Cerny called it "dedicated hardware" a couple of times, with a hint strongly suggesting that it would be able to run even in the standby/low-power mode of the PS4. So it's likely a separate chip, which works with that secondary (likely ARM) processor and the HDD in that low-power mode. Without too much wild speculation, it's pretty easy to come up with many ideas why being able to use this dedicated compressor/decompressor in PS4's standby/low-power mode, or entirely in the background while playing games, would be useful.

And frankly, I can't imagine Sony going out-of-house for this chip since this is something that represents a core competency within the larger company and when they've got so many of their own designs from the camera division to pick and choose from.

 

[pixlexic]

Wtf!!?? That's it. Not buying!



J/k

 

[RoboPlato]

Ilo what typs of spec upgrades will durango get? What is your expert opinion

I'm not i-Lo and I don't remember if I've posted my speculation about Durango's final specs before but I may as well take a wild guess. I expect the CPU to be more than 1.6GHz and the GPU to wind up somewhere around 1.5tflops. Clock speed increases are probably all they can do and make it out on time but the gap between rumored Durango specs and PS4 specs is pretty huge when you take into account the deeper feature sets of the GPUs and all of the major efficiency improvement on PS4. OS will likely be a 2gb reserve with 1 core dedicated to it from the CPU.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

With sony's gamers first tactic, I don't believe this to be true.

I think the original rumored 512mb is still the goal. As that would be 512mb extra not available on the xbox720.

 

[TheMagician]

Doesn't the Wii U also use 1GB?

 

[AgentP]

With sony's gamers first tactic, I don't believe this to be true.

I think the original rumored 512mb is still the goal. As that would be 512mb extra not available on the xbox720.

The original rumor was also for a 4GB system. I can see Sony allocating more since they have plenty to play with.

 

[coldfoot]

I'm doubtful that it has anything to do with that, for a few reasons. In the presentation, Cerny called it "dedicated hardware" a couple of times, with a hint strongly suggesting that it would be able to run even in the standby/low-power mode of the PS4. So it's likely a separate chip, which works with that secondary (likely ARM) processor and the HDD in that low-power mode. Without too much wild speculation, it's pretty easy to come up with many ideas why being able to use this dedicated compressor/decompressor in PS4's standby/low-power mode, or entirely in the background while playing games, would be useful.

It's not an extra chip, but most likely a dedicated block in the ARM processor itself. The Raspberry Pi has no problems handling 1080p video, because 1080p decoding/encoding is not a very intensive task unless you're running it on a general purpose x86 processor.

 

[DieH@rd]

Doesn't the Wii U also use 1GB?

Yes. But that ram is slower ram than your PC, modern smartphone and tablet, and OS on it was made by team who never before tried to creating modern OS experience. They did they job extremely poorly.

 

[RoboPlato]

With sony's gamers first tactic, I don't believe this to be true.

I think the original rumored 512mb is still the goal. As that would be 512mb extra not available on the xbox720.

Even if both consoles have 7gb open to games the PS4 still would have a major advantage in bandwidth.

 

[Quasar]

No. We are going to get a fast and responsive one. Have you used the Vita?

Though how much multitasking and other stuff does it do?

I look forward to another cross game chat debacle where a xbox3 feature can't be implemented due to lack of system ram.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Though how much multitasking and other stuff does it do?

I look forward to another cross game chat debacle where a xbox3 feature can't be implemented due to lack of system ram.

It can go into everything but other games and apps like Netflix. I'm sure they can get apps like Netflix working with the game suspended on PS4 with 4 times the OS ram.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Not everything is a MS operating system

360 used 36MB for OS. Sony used 3x as much, yet they were the ones with no party chat.

 

[Mandoric]

I'm doubtful that it has anything to do with that, for a few reasons. In the presentation, Cerny called it "dedicated hardware" a couple of times, with a hint strongly suggesting that it would be able to run even in the standby/low-power mode of the PS4. So it's likely a separate chip, which works with that secondary (likely ARM) processor and the HDD in that low-power mode. Without too much wild speculation, it's pretty easy to come up with many ideas why being able to use this dedicated compressor/decompressor in PS4's standby/low-power mode, or entirely in the background while playing games, would be useful.

And frankly, I can't imagine Sony going out-of-house for this chip since this is something that represents a core competency within the larger company and when they've got so many of their own designs from the camera division to pick and choose from.

On the other hand, having it as part of the GPU makes it easier for it to directly access the framebuffer and implement Gaikai's latency-reduction tech, right?

it's also possible that the encoder is a part of Sony's customization that found its way back into the mainstream line. It is actual dedicated silicon on the die rather than AMD's old "hardware" solution involving compute resources.

 

[IHaveCandy]

360 used 36MB for OS. Sony used 3x as much, yet they were the ones with no party chat.

PS3 OS did not use 100MB+ in-game.

 

[Beer Monkey]

PS3 OS did not use 100MB+ in-game.

Ah, you are correct. Not in-game.

http://www.psuni.com/ps3-os-footprint-slashed-to-50mb-1798/

Still, PS3 used more memory for OS than 360. Yet still 'har har MS OS = bloat' jokes in thread.

 

[Quaz51]

360 used 36MB for OS. Sony used 3x as much, yet they were the ones with no party chat.

PS3 use 50MB OS and a true 1080p GUI (720p GUI upscaled in 1080p on X360)

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Games can only see 7GB, even though 1GB is active and working for OS. One unified pool [can be accessed by both GPU and CPU] is "formated" into two parts. At no point can OS memory footprint increase [which i think was possible on PS3 [not sure], when you pause a game some part of game memory was stored on HDD to make space for larger OS functions. This can cause lag.]

so wait is ring-fencing separating the memory for games and for the OS? Or is it separating what is "system memory" for the CPU and video memory for the GPU? Which I would think would make the whole point of unified memory pointless.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Ah, you are correct. Not in-game.

http://www.psuni.com/ps3-os-footprint-slashed-to-50mb-1798/

Still, PS3 used more memory for OS than 360. Yet still 'har har MS OS = bloat' jokes in thread.

Well Windows is rather bloaty.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Forum speculation with no basis in fact or sourcing.

well there is facts that state that there using and secondary custom companion chip for the OS, which is likely ARM based. The memory part is purely speculation though.

 

[XtremeXpider]

360 used 36MB for OS. Sony used 3x as much, yet they were the ones with no party chat.

32MB for Xbox 360.

 

[Canis lupus]

Doesn't the Wii U also use 1GB?

Yeah, but going out of the system settings or quitting a game takes longer on the WiiU than PS3 so its not the whole picture.

 

[xxracerxx]

Nvm

 

[Beer Monkey]

32MB for Xbox 360.

Typo, thanks.

1GB actually seems like a crazy amount to reserve but maybe they've got some special sauce that needs it.

3x as much, huh? Link?

I already posted link and admitted error. PS3 does use over 3x as much in dash but only 50% more than 360 in-game.

 

[FStop7]

I remember initial guesses were initially there would be access to 4 gigs or less and they'd scale it up over time. Sounds like positive news for the devs.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

I already posted link and admitted error. PS3 does use over 3x as much in dash but only 50% more than 360 in-game.

Where is your source that it uses 3x as much when not in game? I've never heard this before. How much does 360 use when not in game?

 

[Beer Monkey]

Where is your source that it uses 3x as much when not in game? I've never heard this before. How much does 360 use when not in game?

Source is when they cut it down from 120MB to 96MB, there are various articles:

http://www.psuni.com/ps3-os-footprint-slashed-to-50mb-1798/

 

[Audioboxer]

I would be happy to see the OS get 1GB over 512mb, just in case the future holds large OS changes.

The PS3 was screwed out of features due to OS RAM limits.

7GB is easily enough for games, especially high speed memory

I approve.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

I can bet most of that Gb will be reserved for background browsing, and stuff like that, in game. People forget about how memory demanding browsers are. 100Mb? Come on, are you joking?

Most of you talk about 360 Os using barely 32Mb, but it's more like a launcher, with basic device drivers, than a proper Os. You want to surf internet? Launch iE app, loading time, full main memory access. You want to watch a TV show? Launch particular video app, full access to all resources again. No room for multitasking other than play music.

Depending on what features are included in that Gb, it can be too much or too little. I expect them to make the same use for that reserved memory than any other smartphone OS. All not gaming related included.

 

[DieH@rd]

so wait is ring-fencing separating the memory for games and for the OS? Or is it separating what is "system memory" for the CPU and video memory for the GPU? Which I would think would make the whole point of unified memory pointless.

Its like creating two partitions on one hard drive. BIOS and OS can contact and work 1GB partition [regulate security for entire system, fire up OS apps, manage user content], and games can use 7GB partition.

Dont think that separation of OS and Game ram will somehow cancel "unified ram". The point of unified ram is that both CPU and GPU can access and work on same address spaces, without the need to send data from one memory pool to another memory pool [PC main ram > GPU vram and other way around].

I can bet most of that Gb will be reserved for background browsing, and stuff like that, in game. People forget about how memory demanding browsers are. 100Mb? Come on, are you joking?

iPad 1 has only 256MB of ram, and it has very nice and fast browser, and can even store current "unused" data that is not shown on screen on local storage. Sure, ipad2/3/4 had better browsers with more freedom in ram usage, but even ipad1 class of browser would be AWESOME for consoles. And dont forgett that nothing stops both MS and Sony to use pagefile on HDD [extension of ram on storage medium, slow access time but great for offloading data from ram].

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Source is when they cut it down from 120MB to 96MB, there are various articles:

http://www.psuni.com/ps3-os-footprint-slashed-to-50mb-1798/

correct, but it never said what it uses when not in a game. Nothing has ever suggested its dynamic. In fact the only time I've heard something similar is with the Vita, and people have suggested they do this with PS4. I'm pretty sure PS3 uses the same amount of memory when in game as not in game(50mb).

 

[Malice215]

1GB isn't crazy when you take into consideration the life cycle Sony plans their consoles around and how they add features through firmware updates, along with what tasks will be running in the background. 7GB is still plenty for games.

Also the Vita OS is amazing. If the PS4 OS is just as good or better, I'll be very happy.

 

[DieH@rd]

correct, but it never said what it uses when not in a game. Nothing has ever suggested its dynamic. In fact the only time I've heard something similar is with the Vita, and people have suggested they do this with PS4. I'm pretty sure PS3 uses the same amount of memory when in game as not in game(50mb).

No. During gaming PS3 OS can use modules that can be called up by developers. If game does not use multiplayer, that module of OS is not loaded. OS keyboard module used ~10MB, maybe more i dont recall exact number [T9 prediction crap].

There was a list of PS3 OS modules and their sized released ~3-4 years ago.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

It's not an extra chip, but most likely a dedicated block in the ARM processor itself. The Raspberry Pi has no problems handling 1080p video, because 1080p decoding/encoding is not a very intensive task unless you're running it on a general purpose x86 processor.

Could be. We'll have to wait and see on that for confirmation though.

On the other hand, having it as part of the GPU makes it easier for it to directly access the framebuffer and implement Gaikai's latency-reduction tech, right?

Not the way I read Cerny and Ito's remarks here:

Cerny: The second custom chip is essentially the Southbridge. However, this also has an embedded CPU. This will always be powered, and even when the PS4 is powered off, it is monitoring all IO systems. The embedded CPU and Southbridge manages download processes and all HDD access. Of course, even with the power off.

Ito: The second custom chip also takes into consideration environmental problems. For background downloading, if the main CPU needs to be started every time, energy consumption increases significantly, so we run this with the second chip. Particularly in Europe, there are strict energy consumption regulations, so handling consumption in this manner is also one of our goals.

Cerney: There’s also network bandwidth considerations. Background downloading allows for smooth downloading of large files even when bandwidth is limited.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532077

So if the secondary low-power chip is functioning as the Southbridge, hooking that processor in with that system (or indeed making it part of the secondary processor itself) is an elegant and efficient design, IMO.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

No. During gaming PS3 OS can use modules that can be called up by developers. If game does not use multiplayer, that module of OS is not loaded. OS keyboard module used ~10MB, maybe more i dont recall exact number [T9 prediction crap].

There was a list of PS3 OS modules and their sized released ~3-4 years ago.

Yes I remember, like if the devs wanted to use custom soundtracks with their game it would take like 10-14mb of RAM or something like that.

Thats still completely different, than saying, when not in a game the OS uses some 100mb+ of RAM. theres been no info released on what it uses when not in a game.

 

[Kun Aguero]

1GB reserved seems about right, might be overkill but better safe than sorry, Sony can always reduce the amount later in the console's life.

 

[LCGeek]

Well Windows is rather bloaty.

Especially with superfect enabled. Windows can easily be reduced in the memory footprint and if MS bothered to make the kernel more efficient like they obviously did for xbox games would be a lot better.

 

[LCGeek]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532077

So if the secondary low-power chip is functioning as the Southbridge, hooking that processor in with that system (or indeed making it part of the secondary processor itself) is an elegant and efficient design.

Thanks for that quote about bandwidth and networking. My only issue is latency though from it seems on the I/O end sony is doing things right or trying ensure things don't end up the pc when it becomes bloaty or overprocessed.

 

[Ouren]

You guys should really look into how normal PC architecture works compared to the PS4. "bottlenecking" 100% describes the way it works on PC unfortunately. It's fascinating.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Thanks for that quote about bandwidth and networking. My only issue is latency though from it seems on the I/O end sony is doing things right or trying ensure things don't end up the pc when it becomes bloaty or overprocessed.

In what regard?

 

[Kaako]

Don't really know the source site or put much trust in it, however, this is what I would also expect for their OS memory allocation. 7GB of GDDR5 dedicated to games solely is pretty godsend for at least the next 4+ years. I look very forward to see what the first party wizards come up with.

 

[Mandoric]

Could be. We'll have to wait and see on that for confirmation though.



Not the way I read Cerny and Ito's remarks here:



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532077

So if the secondary low-power chip is functioning as the Southbridge, hooking that processor in with that system (or indeed making it part of the secondary processor itself) is an elegant and efficient design, IMO.

Fair enough, that makes plenty of sense. Now I can't wait to see the teardowns. :lol

 

[AuthenticM]

Still better than 5GB of DDR3.

 

[publicpwnerer]

Out of curiosity, what does this figure mean, particularly in comparison to the PS3's hardware?

 

[valkillmore]

Out of curiosity, what does this figure mean, particularly in comparison to the PS3's hardware?

Better yet, can someone please explain to me why developers should be excited by this amount of memory? What, specifically, will this do for developers? What possibilities does it present to change the way games are made/presented/played? My apologies if this question has been asked already, but I have yet to read a detailed explanation of why this is exciting. And don't read that as me saying it isn't exciting. I'm not. I'm just ignorant to what it actually means.

 

[kikonawa]

If you can see what they can do with one gb on android... Nextgen will be awesome

 

[CREMSteve]

I cannot wait to have this box in my living room.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I was expecting 6 - 6.5GB, so that's nice.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

also:

Cerny also talks about the custom chipset (and confirms the PS4 will use ARM’s TrustZone) and reiterates that the console will allow users to play games whilst they’re downloading – something that was mentioned at the reveal but nice to hear again.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2013/03/26/sonys-mark-cerny-talks-ps4/

 

[yurinka]

Who are the guys behind this site? It sounds as a random fan site just posting their guesses instead of real insider info. Did they said something worth before?
Judging by what PS3 and 360 do requiring a tiny OS footprint I don't understand why they would need something that big now, specially considering they already have dedicated hw for downloading or streaming stuff.

 

[Agent Ironside]

We haven't even seen a game developed on this amount of fast memory before. They're going to be things we could of never imagined being done. Glorious.