TheLastCandle
Member
Thank you.
GAF has a serious problem with recognizing grey area in real life situations.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rapist now works to stop sexual violence in South Africa
- Thread starter Gaborn
- Start date
- Status
Thank you.
GAF has a serious problem with recognizing grey area in real life situations.
Remember what I said about making synecdoche claims? That's one of them.
I'll tell you what Devolution is thinking.
She is thinking that it's better for someone (who has reconciled with his victim) to educate young South Africans on why they should not rape others that for that person to spend his days in jail.
I'll agree with you that rape is a horrible offense and, truth be told, I wouldn't want someone that has raped to be my neighbor. However, one of the ultimate goals of jail is to separate those who commit crimes from their victims while offering them time to change themselves and their ways. This guy seems to have done the latter, even without spending his time in jail. If this guy is able to lead a positive life from this point forward then I would rather he continue his mission to end the epidemic.
Disgusting.
This is the shortfall of Deontology - way too short sighted. Greater good is done with this man outside of prison - that does not excuse his actions, but his work redeems him much more than any stint in a prison cell could.
edit: Actually when I think about it, I'd argue that Kant would even agree with me on this.
Admittedly nothing would be gained but causing him to pay for what he did. You can argue (and you would probably be right) that more harm than good would be done from this, but I just can't find nothing morally objectionable about wanting to see a rapist pay for what they did because of the severity of what rape is.
Where do you draw the line on what's forgivable and what isn't? If someone can rape a person and be forgiven for their actions because they're trying to make the place they live not such, is there anything you wouldn't forgive?
So the ultimate question is, is it morally wrong to hate a rapist for what they did, even if they try to make up for it (much) later? I don't think so right now, but maybe my mind could be changed?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Your not understanding me. Its not about forgiveness. Its not even about hate. Feel free to hate him, feel free to not forgive him. The point that I and others are making is that for society as a whole he is doing more good now then he would be if he was being "punished" in prison, and that from the perspective of good for society is how the justice system should operate, not from emotional desire to see someone you hate suffer.
You keep using the phrase "pay for what he did" but what kind of payment is being given? Pay implies that we would be getting something out of him being punished, can you tell me what it is? Is it emotional satisfaction on your part, and if so, can you say that?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
he doesn't live in the same society as us, in case you didn't figure that out.
this is a societal problem, not an individual's problem, like it is in cultures where rape is looked down upon instead of as "the norm."
I have to admit, the only thing I would get out of it would be the satisfaction of seeing a rapist go to prison.
But is that really so wrong?
That doesn't excuse it to me. I actually covered that in my very first post in this thread.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If he's doing more benefit out of prison, yeah, sorry, it is wrong. You're placing your own emotional desires over benefits to the larger population.
When the counter to that is him helping in ending a societal epidemic that turns a blind eye and boderline encourages this sort of behaviour? Therefore helping result in less rapes as a whole? Damn right it is.
Devolution
Member
The problem isn't that you hate him, the problem is that you'd rather see him confined to a prison than trying to prevent other men from committing the act. Justice isn't just about punishing someone for their crimes, if he can be a positive male influence, and one that knows the disastrous effects of peer pressure and misogyny first hand, there is literally no better spokesperson against such violence.
He knows what young men are going through, he's been there, he didn't stop them or himself and regrets it. He can tell other men how its affected his life, how much guilt he is wracked with and how much of a burden it is. As bad as it is for the victims, it's a lot easier to be apathetic to their plight if you simply cannot relate.
The entire ideology of "toss him to the wolves" is the exact kind of shit that allows rapes to continue. No one actually talks about it. You just punish the rapists and nothing changes because there is no national discussion, there are no outreaches to those who might commit the act themselves. Rape is so terrible because it manages to be tragic and common place.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
then how about any other fucked up thing that is happening in any other country? just because its rape doesn't mean its any worse than everything else, like women being beheaded for wearing inappropriate sandals, or whatever you read that you might disagree with. When things like that are supported by the society, the society as a whole needs to change, it isn't something that throwing this guy into prison is going to change.
In fact, throwing him into prison would be a detriment to solving that societal crisis because he is one of the few activists against it.
I can't help but feel we're turning a blind eye to what he did, though. It's lose/lose.
So the article doesn't mention Africa as a whole, and apparently you don't know much about it, but from this article alone you've inferred that the entire continent is in bad shape and the people seem pretty lost.
HMMMMMMMMM.
^ He did say "or moreso South Africa"... and it's not like there aren't plenty of other places in Africa that are in terrible shape, even worse than South Africa in many cases (Zimbabwe, Sudan / South Sudan, Zaire, Somalia...)
By that logic isn't everyone who isn't currently raping someone a "former rapist"?
By that logic isn't everyone who isn't currently raping someone a "former rapist"?
How? He practically plastered his name across the world when he could have kept his mouth shut.
It's Jango. This should come as no surprise.
People don't seem very quick to condemn his actions, just saying. The fact that he felt no guilt for a long time is pretty damn bad.
For the record I highlighted and underlined it because it was a STUNNING statement from anyone. I do think as a pastor and a moral voice in the community that's particularly sad but I don't think it's a commentary on religion, it's a commentary on culture. Religiosity itself should not be a factor in anyone's reaction.
You see, this article made me sad, so I looked up how bad rape was in Africa. I found this Read here where it says "Fellow AIDS researchers in Zambia, Zimbabwe and Nigeria have told me that the myth also exists in these countries and that it is being blamed for the high rate of sexual abuse against young children.”". Meaning, elsewhere in Africa it is bad as well.
But, I like how you try to troll me. It's hilariously sad.
And you got owned too. It's ok, you can tone down on the racist cry alerts. Enough of them are already in this thread.
I believe a mod told everyone to stop arguing about this.
The fact that many South Africans don't condemn his actions, that they don't feel guilt, is the reason why he's speaking out in the first place. Any sane person, as evidenced by this thread, condemns his past actions. I'm sure he felt guilt before this point, he was probably just afraid of what would happen to him upon confessing.
"Justice" seems to turn a blind eye towards the victim more than anything. People become so focused on what they should do to the criminal that they forget that the victims still need help and that they should work to prevent more people from becoming victims.
I condemn his actions, but that doesn't mean jack shit as long as the majority down there doesn't share my view.
And he hid his guilt because rape is so normal down there, peer pressure can be a bitch.
You can call the Aztecs evil for sacrificing people to their gods, but it was the norm. And in their mind, the right thing to do.
What he did was wrong. Nobody here will argue that.
What he's doing now is positive, and he has been rehabilitated. Throwing him in jail now will do absolutely nothing.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i would go so far as to say while obviously not as much of a victim as the person he raped, he is a victim himself due to the peer pressure. Forcing someone to rape someone would mean that the rapist becomes a victim as well.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
The "good" news is that this is mostly a crime committed by men under 20. Peer pressure to prove yourself as a man seems to be the main motivation. Hopefully men like the one in this story inspire other older men to have the courage to admit it is very wrong. Give the younger men good role models to follow.
Yes the pastor himself was excusing it as just boys being boys. But eventually, if enough reformed rapists become brave enough to admit that it's just a violent and backwards cultural pressuring men to this, then fewer and fewer young men will feel the need to prove themselves this way. I expect this to take several decades but there's actually a lot of silver lining to this story.
Yes the pastor himself was excusing it as just boys being boys. But eventually, if enough reformed rapists become brave enough to admit that it's just a violent and backwards cultural pressuring men to this, then fewer and fewer young men will feel the need to prove themselves this way. I expect this to take several decades but there's actually a lot of silver lining to this story.
Pollux
Member
No.
finowns
Member
I see where your coming from Valnen; people yelling at you need to realize this is not so black and white.
This guy has lived his life while the victim has been suffering all this time it really is not right. On the other hand he might help stop this craziness.
It is unfortunate that he waited so long to confess he looks old as hell but whatever let's give him a gold star.
Devolution
Member
You and Valnen are the ones looking at this in black and white. Don't project such bullshit onto us.
finowns
Member
I could say the same of you.
starchild excalibur
Member
Yeah, I'm sure one less father will do more good in the world then allowing him to continue the decent work he's done in the years since his crime.
Devolution
Member
Yeah a response that is "no u" after a post that's just as meaningless. Good job arguing for your side.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Man, he's such an asshole for trying to do some good after his crime. How does he dare.
finowns
Member
What side am I on? Did I say I wanted him to be arrested?
Take a breath. Read my post.
Devolution
Member
I did read your post. You said those in disagreement with Valnen were looking at the world through a black and white lens. What the fuck else did you mean by that?
finowns
Member
I did not understand why everyone was jumping on Valnen when obviously this is very complex.
In a case like this how can anyone be sure and forthright?
Devolution
Member
What's complex? The idea that he thinks a guy trying to acknowledge and fight the rape culture in his country should be thrown in prison? The black and white bullshit is "he did a crime he should go to prison" which allows for no more introspection of the issue and what that person is currently doing with their life. What does throwing him in prison do other than silence another voice against the rape culture in South Africa? Did you bother to think about that? Did Valnen?
finowns
Member
Seems complex to me. I don't know the answers.
Devolution
Member
Yeah apparently you can't construct an actual argument or read either.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Jail is supposed to be about rehabilitation and punishment. I think the guy being against this means he's pretty rehabilitated. Sending him to jail for punishment, I dunno, doesn't seem useful to me if he's going to do good while he's out.
finowns
Member
Again I was not arguing. I can see both sides.
Devolution
Member
Nope you can't. Not with the rhetoric you first espoused.
So is that the end of it for this man? He is forever to be denied a change because he is no longer able to change his ways by some unforseen laws of the universe? Nothing he can ever do in life will ever be able to balance out the bad? That one bad act can never be balanced out by a great amount of good?
I don't understand why the term "former" cannot be added to rapist. If what he says is true, then he was a rapist, but doesn't do it anymore. It's not a matter of personal disregard to rape that I'm saying this, it just seems logical that you can be a different person from what you were in the past. Rapist seems a very present frame of mind that someone is in.
finowns
Member
lol ok.
People were criticizing Valnen because he was the one treating this as a black and white issue.
It is fairly complex. The former rapist is trying to make amends by speaking out against the crimes being committed but Valnen doesn't care. He just wants the guy to be thrown in jail. For what reason? Because Valnen is clearly a computer that can't think past the "If A then B" logic of "If he raped someone, he goes to jail."
finowns
Member
And I should have said I included Valnen, which I did. But Valnen had a legitimate point that I thought was being shouted down; a little ridiculously.
I don't really understand what you're talking about by now finowns, but Valnen's stance is the black and white one - that a person committed a crime and thus should go to jail.
Most everyone else sees that as a negative because, now that he's been rehabilitated, jail will serve no purpose aside from removing a rehabilitated man from society who has made it his purpose to right this prevalent wrong in society.
When it comes to imprisonment, the ideal is for there to be rehabilitation so that the criminal can reintegrate beneficially into society, but in most cases, it makes them worse. He has been rehabilitated and does not need to be made worse.
Most everyone else sees that as a negative because, now that he's been rehabilitated, jail will serve no purpose aside from removing a rehabilitated man from society who has made it his purpose to right this prevalent wrong in society.
When it comes to imprisonment, the ideal is for there to be rehabilitation so that the criminal can reintegrate beneficially into society, but in most cases, it makes them worse. He has been rehabilitated and does not need to be made worse.
- Status