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[Vermillion]

I don't really understand what you're talking about by now finowns, but Valnen's stance is the black and white one - that a person committed a crime and thus should go to jail.

Most everyone else sees that as a negative because, now that he's been rehabilitated, jail will serve no purpose aside from removing a rehabilitated man from society who has made it his purpose to right this prevalent wrong in society.

When it comes to imprisonment, the ideal is for there to be rehabilitation so that the criminal can reintegrate beneficially into society, but in most cases, it makes them worse. He has been rehabilitated and does not need to be made worse.

This.

 

[Lich_King]

I'd be for jailing him if he wasn't in South Africa. When ~1/4 of men admit they are rapists, law enforcement breaks down. Well unless they invite for-profit prisons to help them out, or summon soul of Stalin to govern.

 

[Bombadil]

And I should have said I included Valnen, which I did. But Valnen had a legitimate point that I thought was being shouted down; a little ridiculously.

What?

This statement makes no sense?

You thought Valnen had a good point but simultaneously agree that Valnen's point was too indicative of a "black and white" perspective?

If it's too "black and white," then it's not a good point.

Valnen said:

People don't seem very quick to condemn his actions, just saying. The fact that he felt no guilt for a long time is pretty damn bad.

As if being quick to condemn people is a good thing. We have the intellect to think about things, to take into account many variables, but Valnen is unhappy about that. He wants us to be quick to condemn the man. That exemplifies a "black and white" attitude. I suppose if he had a tattoo of Tinkerbell getting boned by a lightswitch, Valnen would feel compelled to defend him.

 

[(._.)]

I can't help but feel we're turning a blind eye to what he did, though. It's lose/lose.

It's because you're delusional and just looking for an argument. Nobody has ever downplayed rape itt. Stop posting. The thoughts you have shared in this thread are borderline barbaric.

 

[finowns]

You thought Valnen had a good point but simultaneously agree that Valnen's point was too indicative of a "black and white" perspective?

Yes.

If it's too "black and white," then it's not a good point.


Valnen's point is as black and white as yours. Because he is talking about his crime and is remorseful you feel he does not need to go to jail. Is it really that easy?

 

[Bombadil]

You thought Valnen had a good point but simultaneously agree that Valnen's point was too indicative of a "black and white" perspective?

Yes.

If it's too "black and white," then it's not a good point.


Valnen point is as black and white as yours. Because he is talking about his crime and is remorseful you feel he does not need to go to jail. Is it really that easy?

No, it's not easy, because I'm thoughtful. I didn't say the man didn't need to go to jail at any point. I'm torn about the issue because on the one hand he raped somebody but on the other hand he has spent a great deal of time trying to atone for his past.

But it's Valnen and now you, who seem to be arguing the point that he should go to jail because he raped somebody. That's an open and shut perspective. Aka, black and white.

My point isn't black and white at all. You don't know what black and white means.

If I were being "black and white" then I would have said that he deserves to go to jail no matter what. That's what it means to treat the world in terms of black and white. There's a rule, and you follow that rule without question. That's what Valnen is doing. His rule is: if a rapist, then go to jail. I'm saying, yes he's a rapist, but look at what he's done. He's owned up to it, he's confronted the victim and apologized for his actions, and he's an activist.

Keep in mind. This man didn't have to do any of those things. He didn't have to confess to a single soul because no one was going to indict him or arrest him. He was scott-free.

What purpose does it serve to put him in jail if not to simply punish him without effect? If he's already rehabilitated - which he's proven himself to be - then the only reason I can think of for putting him in prison is simply to follow the black and white rulebook, or else to make him suffer and gain satisfaction from knowing that he will suffer in prison.

 

[finowns]

No, it's not easy, because I'm thoughtful. I didn't say the man didn't need to go to jail at any point. I'm torn about the issue because on the one hand he raped somebody but on the other hand he has spent a great deal of time trying to atone for his past.

But it's Valnen and now you, who seem to be arguing the point that he should go to jail because he raped somebody. That's an open and shut perspective. Aka, black and white.

My point isn't black and white at all. You don't know what black and white means.

If I were being "black and white" then I would have said that he deserves to go to jail no matter what. That's what it means to treat the world in terms of black and white. There's a rule, and you follow that rule without question. That's what Valnen is doing. His rule is: if a rapist, then go to jail. I'm saying, yes he's a rapist, but look at what he's done. He's owned up to it, he's confronted the victim and apologized for his actions, and he's an activist.

Keep in mind. This man didn't have to do any of those things. He didn't have to confess to a single soul because no one was going to indict him or arrest him. He was scott-free.

What purpose does it serve to put him in jail if not to simply punish him without effect? If he's already rehabilitated - which he's proven himself to be - then the only reason I can think of for putting him in prison is simply to follow the black and white rulebook, or else to make him suffer and gain satisfaction from knowing that he will suffer in prison.

If I used black and white incorrectly I apologize. My main issue was some of the posts directed at Valnen seemed a little out of line; the poster above you called his opinion 'barbaric' it seems odd to me in a case like this; that should be a rational and very valid opinion; I hope you agree even if you do not think the guy should go to jail.

Like you I am torn on this case.

Sorry I am not as eloquent as you. And I am out of this thread!

 

[davepoobond]

Valnen's point is as black and white as yours.

you're saying that instead of throwing a rapist in jail we should let him do good instead is black and white? in what world?

the only sense of black and white with that example is throw him in jail, or let him free to rape anyone he choses because he's NOT in jail.

the GRAY AREA comes with him DOING SOMETHING ABOUT the culture that emphasizes rape to prove manhood while being one of those himself. That is the very definition of "gray area!"

 

[finowns]

you're saying that instead of throwing a rapist in jail we should let him do good instead is black and white? in what world?

the only sense of black and white with that example is throw him in jail, or let him free to rape anyone he choses because he's NOT in jail.

the GRAY AREA comes with him DOING SOMETHING ABOUT the culture that emphasizes rape to prove manhood while being one of those himself. That is the very definition of "gray area!"

Again I probably used 'black and white' wrong. I was trying to say there is more than just a simple 2 sided argument (thus black and white) and also trying to point out that while Valnen point was simple so were the others.

It is not as easy as saying he should be punished since he raped someone or he should not be punished because he is attempting to stop a culture of rape; if you davepoobond agree with the latter than I believe that your opinion is just as simple as Valnens.

Could not help but to check this thread

 

[First Name]

Again I probably used 'black and white' wrong. I was trying to say there is more than just a simple 2 sided argument (thus black and white) and also trying to point out that while Valnen point was simple so were the others.

It is not as easy as saying he should be punished since he raped someone or he should not be punished because he is attempting to stop a culture of rape; if you davepoobond agree with the latter than I believe that your opinion is just as simple as Valnens.

Could not help but to check this thread

You are creating a false equivalency.

Valnen is arguing that this man should be in prison even though the man is doing more good now than if he were in jail. He ignores the complexities of the case in favor of one size fits all solutions. That is simple.

Everyone else is arguing that allowing the man to continue his efforts to educate young South African men and dissuade them from buying into the rape culture does more good than locking him up. This point of view recognizes that things aren't always clear cut and that sometimes it's best to forgo our initial gut reaction about what the "right choice" is, in favor of pursuing the course of action that produces the most good.

The latter position is the exact opposite of simple: it acknowledges that sometimes, in order to do the right thing, you have to go beyond your first judgement and look at the broader consequences.

 

[finowns]

You are creating a false equivalency.

Valnen is arguing that this man should be in prison even though the man is doing more good now than if he were in jail. He ignores the complexities of the case in favor of one size fits all solutions. That is simple.

Everyone else is arguing that allowing the man to continue his efforts to educate young South African men and dissuade them from buying into the rape culture does more good than locking him up. This point of view recognizes that things aren't always clear cut and that sometimes it's best to forgo our initial gut reaction about what the "right choice" is, in favor of pursuing the course of action that produces the most good.

The latter position is the exact opposite of simple: it acknowledges that sometimes, in order to do the right thing, you have to go beyond your first judgement and look at the broader consequences.

I think where Valnen is coming from or his side of the argument is this is "very clear cut" this guy and two others took turns raping the victim. Did she beg them to stop? Did she fight? Did they beat her until she stopped fighting? Tied her up? Coming to the conclusion this guy has to be punished. He must give up his friends.

Does it matter that he is repentant after however many years? Does his good work mean more than him sitting a cell? Maybe. I am glad I do not have to make those judgements. I find it crazy people are making them so easily.

Rape is getting thrown around a lot in this thread. But can you imagine how terrifying it was? How scared she had to of been?

 

[Aristion]

Hang him. Rape should not ever be forgiven.

What about murder?

 

[Devolution]

I think where Valnen is coming from or his side of the argument is this is "very clear cut" this guy and two others took turns raping the victim. Did she beg them to stop? Did she fight? Did they beat her until she stopped fighting? Tied her up? Coming to the conclusion this guy has to be punished. He must give up his friends.

Does it matter that he is repentant after however many years? Does his good work mean more than him sitting a cell? Maybe. I am glad I do not have to make those judgements. I find it crazy people are making them so easily.

Rape is getting thrown around a lot in this thread. But can you imagine how terrifying it was? How scared she had to of been?

Who is disregarding what happened to her? Why are you saying we're ignoring it? Why are you making emotional appeals as if we don't know how awful rape is? We find what he did horribly disgusting and reprehensible but throwing him in jail now when his efforts are to prevent more young men following down the very same road is the exact kind of thing a society needs. He could have just as easily kept his mouth shut and never said a peep, instead he's doing humanitarian work. Did you read the article in which he made amends with his victim or no?

 

[The Technomancer]

Does it matter that he is repentant after however many years? Does his good work mean more than him sitting a cell? Maybe. I am glad I do not have to make those judgements. I find it crazy people are making them so easily.

Removing emotion from the equation the answer seems to be clearly yes. One has a net neutral effect on society (possibly even a negative considering costs and what prison can do to people which it then re-releases back into the public) the other has a clear net positive, no matter how slight that positive is.

 

[finowns]

Who is disregarding what happened to her? Why are you saying we're ignoring it? Why are you making emotional appeals as if we don't know how awful rape is? We find what he did horribly disgusting and reprehensible but throwing him in jail now when his efforts are to prevent more young men following down the very same road is the exact kind of thing a society needs. He could have just as easily kept his mouth shut and never said a peep, instead he's doing humanitarian work. Did you read the article in which he made amends with his victim or no?

I agree. It is not clear cut. So give Valnens a break. (unless sarcasm)

He was brave to come forward. Braver still if he turned himself in. Maybe his work will off set what he did. I do not know. You either.

 

[finowns]

Removing emotion from the equation the answer seems to be clearly yes. One has a net neutral effect on society (possibly even a negative considering costs and what prison can do to people which it then re-releases back into the public) the other has a clear net positive, no matter how slight that positive is.

Hope you understand I am not blinded to this point or against it. Maybe he is exactly what South Africa needs to get a hold on the situation.

Question: Will he turn in his two friends? Will that give him more legitimacy?

 

[akira28]

I see where your coming from Valnen; people yelling at you need to realize this is not so black and white.

This guy has lived his life while the victim has been suffering all this time it really is not right. On the other hand he might help stop this craziness.

It is unfortunate that he waited so long to confess he looks old as hell but whatever let's give him a gold star.

This isn't about confession, it's not even about rehabilitation. It's about his own actual conversion and atonement. Jail isn't supposed to be only about punishment, but that seems to be the single and primary focus, because society seems to doubt that people who do evil can ever truly be redeemed. Many would just like to kill criminals and be done with it. Him turning himself over to the police to serve a sentence would be much less effective to combat the situation and would generally affect nothing for the good of others. He's a fully repentant sinner who is actually living his penance, and situations like that rarely occur. Penitentiaries almost never serve their purpose, they just grind criminals down until they're beaten, or until they become tougher. And all imprisonment does is sequester people for extended periods of time, so we can say that "justice" has been done. But there is no true justice for the victim after the deed is done. It doesn't right the wrong. But this guy is trying, and that's better than most situations.

I would say that more people should be encouraged to do this exact thing over just being ostracized and marked for the rest of their lives. Our society has a punishment fetish, which seems more important than seeking a form of actual justice, or what could be called justice.

 

[Odrion]

This thread is a complete bummer. You're a murderer if you killed a man in cold blood fifty years ago, you're also a rapist if you raped a person a billion years ago.

By the way, three women in Africa were raped by the time it took for me to write this post.

 

[Bombadil]

I agree. It is not clear cut. So give Valnens a break. (unless sarcasm)

He was brave to come forward. Braver still if he turned himself in. Maybe his work will off set what he did. I do not know. You either.

...No.

Valnen is an absolutist. So, I'll give Valnen a taste of his own medicine. I will not forgive him for being wrong.

 

[BobbyRobby]

he should be punished, maybe not thrown in jail in this specific case, but have his wages garnished or have him pay a fine. There has to be a deterrent.