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[Darryl M R]

In my opinion the biggest challenge of building worlds with math is that they will never match a handcrafted world by artists and the core gameplay will reflect this world design decision. It's impressive from a technical aspect when you think of the potential scope. But even Murray mentioned that finding a planet in NMS that is worth admiring would be rare.

Spoiler

I'm leaving my NMS hate at the door on this one since it is an interesting topic.

 

[Peltz]

Is this guy never gonna be forgiven?

People are human, guys. Does Murray need to be exiled from the industry or something?

I do not think he will be forgiven. Unfortunately, that's the thing about reputations - they tend to be difficult to repair once they've been destroyed.

He's human and made mistakes, yes. But it's not like he acknowledges that or has owned up to them.

 

[vivekTO]

Are you excited for him being there?

As an artist who watches a lots of BTS , GDC and Zbrush Summits, Yes.Although half of it will go over my head but i still interested in these technical talks.

Let me just make this clear too, I started the NMS at launch , it didn't run well on my setup, not bothered to play it again, but i always keep in check with all the updates of the game.

 

[Heckler456]

He never apologized for and admitted the lies, as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why people should forgive him before that.

You know... It IS possible that you, as a consumer, aren't in on the entire story. I know that sounds far out there, but it's true. It is in fact possible, even though you're probably super convinced by that one humorous youtube clip you saw that glued together all those random soundbites.

 

[vivekTO]

In my opinion biggest challenge of building worlds with math is that they will never match a handcrafted world by artists and the core gameplay will reflect this world design decision. It's impressive from a technical aspect when you think of the potential scope. But even Murray mentioned that finding a planet in NMS that is worth admiring would be rare.

Spoiler

I'm leaving my NMS hate at the door on this one since it is an interesting topic.

Horizon Zero Dawn is using something Simillar(By that i mean Procedural not the super formula) , Procedural world building is the future for creating environments .

 

[legacyzero]

I dont imagine anybody at this kind of event is going to ask the right question.

"Hey Sean. How ya been, dawg? What happened at launch that caused so much controversy??"

I'd personally like to see him do an AMA or something.

No Man's Sky is a special game. Even with it's flaws. A perfect foundation to build upon. The recent update certainly shows what that looks like. And with another one on the way, It'll further prove that as legitimate. No Man's Sky is still a game to watch. And people are watching.

My No Man's Sky videos on my YouTube channel are STILL getting views, when everyone would have assumed that interest has dried up. People are fascinated by this game, better or worse.

Is this guy never gonna be forgiven?

People are human, guys. Does Murray need to be exiled from the industry or something?

Let's not forget that NONE of us know why the game launched the way it did, and why he's remained silent about it.

I can't imagine a man would want to willfully send the game he's spent 4 years making, to die. The man sold his fucking house to get that studio afloat. Something smells with this IMO.

 

[Kintaro]

He never apologized for and admitted the lies, as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why people should forgive him before that.

This. You have to show some sort of remorse before forgiveness can actually be given. Any future Hello Games product is probably pretty fucked from here on out.

That said, the tech/programming/etc behind the game definitely warrants discussion. Which is what that talk will be about.

 

[More_Badass]

He never apologized for and admitted the lies, as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why people should forgive him before that.

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

 

[Heckler456]

Horizon Zero Dawn is using something Simillar(By that i mean Procedural not the super formula) , Procedural world building is the future for creating environments .

Isn't there like some tool that makes trees that gets used pretty often?

fakeedit: Actually, found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree#Video_game_industry

 

[Darryl M R]

Horizon Zero Dawn is using something Simillar(By that i mean Procedural not the super formula) , Procedural world building is the future for creating environments .

Is this world building (landscapes included) or environment crafting like having different and unique sets of robots and enemies show up in the same area to keep it fresh?

Since for NMS an entire planet is made with math but from my understanding an artist made the landscapes of Horizon. Is this correct?

 

[andymcc]

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

He's the singular representative face for the game. I guess it's easier to target than, say, a nebulous multinational corporation.

 

[entremet]

This. You have to show some sort of remorse before forgiveness can actually be given. Any future Hello Games product is probably pretty fucked from here on out.

That said, the tech/programming/etc behind the game definitely warrants discussion. Which is what that talk will be about.

While his lack of transparency afterward is something you can criticize him on, Hello Games is a tiny studio and I doubt Murray knows anything about PR and how to handle an international PR disaster.

They overpromised and underdelivered. Not the first time it happened in the gaming industry. It happens way more than many think.

They're a promising young studio with tons of potential and simply bit off more they could chew.

It's just sad it's become a scarlet letter on him and his studio.

 

[Heckler456]

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

Look at gamergate for that answer. People really like drama it would seem, and it's far more... visceral to attack an individual than it is a nebulous entity like a publisher or large developer.

 

[Kintaro]

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

Are you saying people have let Ubisoft off the hook for Watch Dogs? I don't think that's the case at all.

Comparing Jericho, Haze etc to the attention and hype No Man's Sky received is not really even remotely close.

While his lack of transparency afterward is something you can criticize him on, Hello Games is a tiny studio and I doubt Murray knows anything about PR and how to handle an international PR disaster.

They overpromised and underdelivered. Not the first time it happened in the gaming industry. It happens way more than many think.

They're a promising young studio with tons of potential and simply bit off more they could chew.

It's just sad it's become a scarlet letter on him and his studio.

If he didn't know anything about PR...why was he doing PR? Hire an agency or a dedicated PR person. Hell, if you are going to publish a game yourself, you should probably look into that if you know nothing about it. You can't just bury your head into the sand, go radio slient after you went on everything you could to promote your game.

It's not sad, it's a consequence. You learn from it. Considering that the studio has never addressed this at all I wonder if he/they have learned anything. Hell, if they said ANYTHING apologetic, people could begin to move on. Why is it so hard for him to just come out and say "Shit, my bad."

Again though, this talk would be pretty cool on a tech level. A lot to learn.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Horizon Zero Dawn is using something Simillar(By that i mean Procedural not the super formula) , Procedural world building is the future for creating environments .

Doesn't Star Citizen do something similar as well? If you're hinting at what I think, that is. If I remember right Cloud uses procedural generation to design the base planet and then artist fill it up.

 

[Lom1lo]

Should be very interesting.

But I also would love to hear about the next nms update.. The last was very good.

 

[Alienous]

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

I think it's because it wasn't a shadowy marketing team that blew up the promises, it was a seemingly humble indie developer, directly selling people on the concept. So I think there's more of a feeling of betrayal there than if Ubisoft releases bullshots.

 

[Chuck]

You know... It IS possible that you, as a consumer, aren't in on the entire story. I know that sounds far out there, but it's true. It is in fact possible, even though you're probably super convinced by that one humorous youtube clip you saw that glued together all those random soundbites.

Could you be a little more patronizing, please?

 

[entremet]

I think it's because it wasn't a shadowy marketing team that blew up the promises, it was a seemingly humble indie developer, directly selling people on the concept. So I think there's more of a feeling of betrayal there than if Ubisoft releases bullshots.

That's a very good point, but at the same time why be so quick to crucify young upstart studios?

These are the exact same type of studios that usually bear more risk than the bigger publisher-owned studios, both financially and creatively.

Yes, NMS's launch was a catastrophe in terms of underdelivering. But indie studios are going to fail sometimes. It should not be a perpetual death sentence.

 

[vivekTO]

Isn't there like some tool that makes trees that gets used pretty often?

fakeedit: Actually, found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree#Video_game_industry

Speed tree is a good example, just like Substance Designer , where the things are generated procedurally with some inputs for basic parameters, This is where the industry is moving forward , nobody have time to create textures in photoshops now , and with all the dynamics( Talking about big AAA games)

Is this world building (landscapes) or environment crafting like having different and unique sets of robots and enemies show up in the same area to keep it fresh?

Since for NMS an entire planet is made with math but from my understanding an artist made the landscapes of Horizon. Is this correct?

No artists made the assets for the environments like couple of rocks,trees, flowers ,shrubs(just for example) which than used by the level designer to create an environment with procedural generation and distribution of those assets. you can generate terrain based on mathematical parameters as i do some times in World Machine(good software for terrain maps) I hope guerrilla will also do some technical talk later.

Doesn't Star Citizen do something similar as well? If you're hinting at what I think, that is. .

Yes Star citizen also using something similar, which helps them to create much better environment and quickly too.

 

[Alienous]

That's a very good point, but at the same time why be so quick to crucify young upstart studios?

These are the exact same type of studios bear more risk than the bigger publisher-owned studios.

Yes, NMS's launch was a catastrophe in terms of underdelivering. But indie studios are going to fail sometimes. It should not be a perpetual death sentence.

I think the attitude is unique to No Man's Sky. Perhaps in part because Hello Games stopped looking like the underdog, which I think a lot of the appeal of indie developers comes from. They released their game at $60, they stopped communicating with fans when the controversy started propagating. They stopped representing what indie developers traditionally represent, seemingly making money-focused decisions instead of fan-focused ones, I'd say.

 

[LordRaptor]

I mean, I don't want to encourage shitposting here, but there is a legitimate critique to be had here with the way Sean talked about the math and procedural generation side of the game to drum up hype for the game.

The answer is he let Sony handle marketing.

 

[legacyzero]

Should be very interesting.

But I also would love to hear about the next nms update.. The last was very good.

Buggies seem to be a certain focus for the next update. I imagine it's coming in the next month or so.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

Watchdogs just ended up looking a lot worse and being buggy, Haze just ended up being a shitty game. Neither of them were telling people about nonexistent multiplayer or saying you don't have collect resources if you don't want to despite that being the only thing there is to do, there's a difference between not living up to hype and lying.

And people still give companies shit about that stuff all the time anyways, especially Ubisoft, it's basically a meme that follows every single game they announce so that's a weird example to choose.

 

[Darryl M R]

Speed tree is a good example, just like Substance Designer , where the things are generated procedurally with some inputs for basic parameters, This is where the industry is moving forward , nobody have time to create textures in photoshops now , and with all the dynamics( Talking about big AAA games)



No artists made the assets for the environments like couple of rocks,trees, flowers ,shrubs(just for example) which than used by the level designer to create an environment with procedural generation and distribution of those assets. you can generate terrain based on mathematical parameters as i do some times in World Machine(good software for terrain maps) I hope guerrilla will also do some technical talk later.

So in Horizon will everyone world look a little bit different based on rock formations and where certain assets are located? Or will it look different every time I go to the area? I'm still confused on how this will work with Horizon so I think a good tech video would also be great from them.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

We all know what this thread will be about: how disheveled will be he? Or will be clean shaven, forgoing the "Punished Murray" look?

��

.

 

[Peroroncino]

Well this is a recipe for a potential drama/disaster, I wonder if something weird's gonna happen.

 

[More_Badass]

Are you saying people have let Ubisoft off the hook for Watch Dogs? I don't think that's the case at all.

Comparing Jericho, Haze etc to the attention and hype No Man's Sky received is not really even remotely close.

Haze was hyped as a "Halo Killer" by the media, so I'd disagree there (however this was still the era of print magazines, so comparing attention and hype seems a bit disproportionate)

As for Watch Dogs, they sure did. Not at launch, and people do still mention the downgrade, but a year later, people were interested in Siege and Syndicate. For Watch Dogs 2 the next year. If Hello Games announced Joe Danger 3 a few years from now, you can bet the reaction would be the same as the one here in regards to something as simple as a GDC talk

 

[Kintaro]

Haze was hyped as a "Halo Killer" by the media, so I'd disagree there (however this was still the era of print magazines, so comparing attention and hype seems a bit disproportionate)

Back in the day, everything was a "Halo Killer." That's kind of a joke there.

As for Watch Dogs, they sure did. Not at launch, and people do still mention the downgrade, but a year later, people were interested in Siege and Syndicate. For Watch Dogs 2 the next year. If Hello Games announced Joe Danger 3 a few years from now, you can bet the reaction would be the same as the one here in regards to something as simple as a GDC talk

Ubisoft is still the butt of "downgrade" jokes due to Watch Dogs. With literally every single announcement they make. Thing is...Siege and Syndicate were also good games. Watch Dogs 2 was an improvement.

That said, Ubisoft was dogged by that same media for downgrades and misleading gamers. Come on now.

Also, Ubisoft didn't really shy away from Watch Dogs after the fact either.

 

[Alienous]

Haze was hyped as a "Halo Killer" by the media, so I'd disagree there

As for Watch Dogs, they sure did. Not at launch, and people do still mention the downgrade, but a year later, people were interested in Siege and Syndicate. For Watch Dogs 2 the next year. If Hello Games announced Joe Dangee 3 a few years from now, you can bet the reaction would be the same as the one here in regards to something as simple as a GDC talk

A few things:
Ubisoft games, still, are met with "don't believe what they say". And that's attached to Ubisoft's marketing, instead of to an individual. For Hello Games that is attached to Sean - 'don't believe his lies' - due to No Man's Sky's marketing.

Ubisoft games aren't as dependent on enthusiast gamers. Even then Siege didn't sell all that well at launch, and had to win people over. Syndicate sold less than the previous Assassin's Creed. I think Watch Dogs 2 sold less than Watch Dogs 1, also. There was an impact. No Man's Sky was successful because of enthusiast gamers, so the impact of their distrust on future Hello Games' games will likely be more significant that what Ubisoft saw.

 

[legacyzero]

I did a "Post-Mortem" video outlining what went wrong, and if the game can be saved. (For those looking to catch up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3mtEJs0_dA

If the last update they dropped back in November is any indication to what we can look forward to, I'm pretty damn excited.

We also have to remember that Sean was quoted as saying "When we launch No Man's Sky Online" in an interview with a magazine, right before launch.

Well this is a recipe for a potential drama/disaster, I wonder if something weird's gonna happen.

If Sean is smart, he'll to an AMA or something, prior to is GDC appearance. Put the fire out before it starts.

 

[vivekTO]

So in Horizon will everyone world look a little bit different based on rock formations and where certain assets are located? Or will it look different every time I go to the area? I'm still confused on how this will work with Horizon so I think a good tech video would also be great from them.

I think you are confusing yourself now, Its using Procedural Generation just to create the terrain and populate it, once it done it is fixed. So they can quickly check new version if one works better or not, but once all done , the environment is locked.

NMS works like minceraft , The thing will not look differently in NMS too, its not a random generator, you can go back to any planet you discovered and it will remain unchanged , because the whole world is based on maths , and you will get the exact same result(environment)each time.

I can't tell you even in much detail as i am also learning something myself, but this i think , how it works. yes i was just looking forward to all the tech videos from guerrilla .

Well this is a recipe for a potential drama/disaster, I wonder if something weird's gonna happen.

They are paying him to come to talk to them or teach them the math behind the game, i don't thing someone will throw a shoe at him.wait..

 

[thomasmahler]

While his lack of transparency afterward is something you can criticize him on, Hello Games is a tiny studio and I doubt Murray knows anything about PR and how to handle an international PR disaster.

They overpromised and underdelivered. Not the first time it happened in the gaming industry. It happens way more than many think.

They're a promising young studio with tons of potential and simply bit off more they could chew.

It's just sad it's become a scarlet letter on him and his studio.

Overpromising and underdelivering is one thing, but openly lying for months on end and then just going silent and collecting money from the 'idiots' that bought your game based on your lies is a whole different matter.

Screw Murray. I think he's a dick. I'd also be surprised if any publisher would ever want to associate with those guys ever again - They're poisonous now. Sean Murray has a terrible repuation and No Man's Sky was rightfully named 'Fail of the Year' by many outlets. If they ever announce a new project, I'm sure it'd immediately get ripped to pieces by former NMS fans. That's why you don't fuck with your fans and that's why you don't lie: You'll always get caught and you might just ruin your entire career.

 

[m4st4]

They'll find some other person to hate and cling to that for a while eventually.

Personally I don't 'hate' the guy, I hate my weak minded decision to buy NMS Day One, that's about it. But his credibility is pretty much lost after that initial fiasco? At least in my eyes.

 

[nailbombxx]

Murray had multiple occasions to clear misconceptions and the unrealistic expectations that people had with the game - but chose to reluctantly confirm them or give vague answers.

And then when the bomb dropped and people realized they've been bamboozled, he vanished - has he or anyone ever came forward to apologize or make good to the leagues and leagues of disappointed fans?

People are going to stay pissed until he does something about it. Seems like they are just waiting until people forget what happened so they won't have to do anything - that is really shady.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Why did this have to turn into a Murray evaluation thread tho. Can't care about the tech either?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Is this guy never gonna be forgiven?

People are human, guys. Does Murray need to be exiled from the industry or something?

For most people, forgiveness usually entails some form of contrition by the person being forgiven.

You know... It IS possible that you, as a consumer, aren't in on the entire story. I know that sounds far out there, but it's true. It is in fact possible, even though you're probably super convinced by that one humorous youtube clip you saw that glued together all those random soundbites.

Sure. In which case, he doesn't need to express contrition, but an explanation would still be due to explain what exactly happened.

Why is NMS the game to be crucifed when there are myriad other "very hyped up games that ended as disappointments"? Like does Clive Barker have to apologize for Jericho, or Ubisoft for Watchdogs, or Haze, and so on, for people to move on?

The face of Jericho would be Clive Barker himself, and the part that he was responsible, the story and tone was fine. So no, he didn't have to face much fire. But come on, you can clearly see the difference between those games that don't have notable faces to be crucified and Murry/NMS. This happened because of the way Murray took on the whole company's PR efforts.

The answer is he let Sony handle marketing.

The direct, literal ad-stuff kind of marketing? Sure. And that left me with a bad taste. But Murray drummed up hype himself through less formal forms of marketing, via his multitude of interviews and appearances on stages around the world.

Well this is a recipe for a potential drama/disaster, I wonder if something weird's gonna happen.

I don't think it will.

Like I said, I'd like it if someone held his feet to the fire and pressed for an answer on the Superformula though. Doubt anyone would be harsh enough to do that though.

Why did this have to turn into a Murray evaluation thread tho. Can't care about the tech either?

The tech is inexorably tied to what Murray said about, which means it was also subject to his vast hype and hyperbole.

 

[Compsiox]

Randomly generated environments are awful. Everyone stop doing this.

 

[Kaako]

Mathematics! This talk is already rustling feathers.

 

[legacyzero]

Randomly generated environments are awful. Everyone stop doing this.

I'll stop you at "Randomly".

 

[Pestilence11]

The team programmed some of the physics for aesthetic reasons. For instance, Duncan insisted on permitting moons to orbit closer to their planets than Newtonian physics would allow. When he desired the possibility of green skies, the team had to redesign the periodic table to create atmospheric particles that would diffract light at just the right wavelength.

I hope he's asked about this gem.

 

[PartTimeWarrior]

Sean: "Alright next question"

Audience member: "Hi Sean, I just want to know what's going on with the next No Man's Sky upda-"

Sean: "No further questions"

 

[LordRaptor]

The direct, literal ad-stuff kind of marketing? Sure. And that left me with a bad taste. But Murray drummed up hype himself through less formal forms of marketing, via his multitude of interviews and appearances on stages around the world.

I strongly suspect Sony gave him the same media training they'd give any exec presenting live on stage at E3 and put him in touch with PR handlers, if not directly employing ones they'd use before.

Like More_Badass said above, the way NMS as a product was presented isn't any particularly different to how multiple other products have been presented prior to launch.
Sean Murray seems to have been the straw that broke the camels back for whatever reason.

 

[Compsiox]

I'll stop you at "Randomly".

Obviously they put certain parameters in place but yes they're awful.

 

[vivekTO]

Randomly generated environments are awful. Everyone stop doing this.

Well good news for you, "randomly" generated environment is not a thing.

Obviously they put certain parameters in place but yes they're awful.

Procedural and random are two entirely different thing, as i said earlier , Horizon Zero Dawn and Star Citizen is using procedural generation, Does that looks bad to you??

 

[vpance]

In my opinion the biggest challenge of building worlds with math is that they will never match a handcrafted world by artists and the core gameplay will reflect this world design decision. It's impressive from a technical aspect when you think of the potential scope. But even Murray mentioned that finding a planet in NMS that is worth admiring would be rare.

Spoiler

I'm leaving my NMS hate at the door on this one since it is an interesting topic.

Artists often copy paste in open world games anyways.

From time to time I'm still impressed by the procgen I see in NMS. Vistas that beat those in artist driven games, where you can walk and aren't walled off or are fake backdrops.

 

[Compsiox]

Well good news for you, "randomly" generated environment is not a thing.



Procedural and random are two entirely different thing, as i said earlier , Horizon Zero Dawn and Star Citizen is using procedural generation, Does that looks bad to you??

Okay procedural. Yes they're bad. Plus we haven't seen all of horizon zero dawn. The environments appear to be pretty lack luster so far.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Okay procedural. Yes they're bad. Plus we haven't seen all of horizon zero dawn. The environments appear to be pretty lack luster so far.

Whaaaaaa

 

[vivekTO]

The environments appear to be pretty lack luster so far.

Okkk. No point in further engaging in convo.
I wanted to post some gif but leave it.

 

[Compsiox]

Okkk. No point of further engaging in convo.

Let's wait and see how fun the environments are to explore. Yeah?

Also this is Guerilla Games. Let's not forget that.