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[E-phonk]

What does this term mean (non-native here)? Thx in advance.

- You call an API, you expect a certain result, it doesn't do it.
(silly example: you call ShowImage() to show an image on screen)
- The API throws an obscure error, so you mail the helpdesk/nintendo.
(example: Err: Image not blob)
- It takes 2 days to get an answer, which is might not even answer your question.
(example: image should be blob format, make sure to convert to blob first!!)
- That means if it was a critical error/api call to progress your project, you're stuck for 2 days with your dev team.
(ie: you wanted to know what a blob format is, since you don't know this weird format)

Another example would be that you finally get your engine running on a version of the SDK, and a new updated SDK breaks the project without any explanations because they changed how certain parts work/respond.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

You sure you don't mean the DS? I'm pretty sure the 3DS can fart its way through any N64 lighting effects.

Oh boy, yes, DS! Will edit my post.

I'd also point to their apparent use of Vulkan for NX and their continued relationship with Unity to be positive signs.

No doubt they are aiming to have Unreal 4 supported on NX too, given how it's increasingly popular among Japanese publishers, and all involved parties would benefit from UE4 support on NX.

Mm. I wonder if Vulkan is part of how Nintendo wants to make software more "portable" - that is, it can run on a variety of devices instead of just a single one. Does that mean developers won't be able to add assembly code to their games, since it'd break them on other systems? Not that assembly is really going to be required on modern hardware, but it's somewhat interesting.

---

As for Kimishima mentioning a single form factor (well, machine), if true I wonder if this is what Nintendo ended up deciding on. Iwata did say they didn't know if only a single form factor was required yet, and that would be decided by customers. But I always interpreted that as meaning one form factor might be cannibalized by another down the line, like how the iPod Touch no longer has a large role in the iOS lineup.

 

[blu]

Yes of course but the hardware also matters. When your CPU doesn't support some instructions or is too old. When your GPU doesnt support such features.
Wii U was poorly designed hardware wise.

It surely was not because the CPU did not support some instructions or it was too old. And the GPU did support the majority of the features of the competition.

Let's not rewrite history here.

 

[E-phonk]

Does that mean developers won't be able to add assembly code to their games, since it'd break them on other systems? Not that assembly is really going to be required on modern hardware, but it's somewhat interesting.

I'd be surprised assembly would still be used these days. It's almost all in C and scripting languages these days.

 

[GhostTrick]

It surely was not because the CPU did not support some instructions or it was too old. And the GPU did support the majority of the features of the competition.

Let's not rewrite history here.

I'm giving an exemple, although it's a fact that Wii U's CPU was too slow. Also the GPU didn't supported all the features. We're talking here about a DX10.1 equivalent, not DX11 equivalent.

Let's be fair here, Wii U wasn't meant with modern middlewares in mind. Wii U wasn't meant for other devs to simply support the platform. It was meant because it needed to be easily and cheaply backward compatible and have a low power consumption. Which resulted in a outdated console.

 

[blu]

I'm giving an exemple, although it's a fact that Wii U's CPU was too slow. Also the GPU didn't supported all the features. We're talking here about a DX10.1 equivalent, not DX11 equivalent.

Let's be fair here, Wii U wasn't meant with modern middlewares in mind. Wii U wasn't meant for other devs to simply support the platform. It was meant because it needed to be easily and cheaply backward compatible and have a low power consumption. Which resulted in a outdated console.

That's a bit different argument than what I quoted. But yes, WiiU design surely did not meet one of its originally-proclaimed design goals, that much is clear.

 

[Turrican3]

Whenever anyone talks about NX, they seem to be speaking of a single system. They’ve even used the word “system”, which in the context of videogame speak, has always referred to a single console.

I don't know. :-\
Unless I'm misunderstanding due to language issues, you're basically talking about a hybrid.

NX was announced as a platform though, and this term was used subsequently more than once by Nintendo.

I believe this could be a very significant hint towards a multiple form factors strategy (not to mention Iwata explicitly said merging home and handheld R&D was not going to mean producing only one machine) when we consider Nintendo talked about redefining a video game platform, again apparently explicitly avoiding using the term "system". This one in particular seems to point to even more than two form factors!

And above all, a single SKU doesn't really make sense IMHO because it's far too risky.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I don't know. :-
Unless I'm misunderstanding due to language issues, you're basically talking about a hybrid.

NX was announced as a platform though, and this term was used subsequently more than once by Nintendo.

I believe this could be a very significant hint towards a multiple form factors strategy (not to mention Iwata explicitly said merging home and handheld R&D was not going to mean producing only one machine) when we consider Nintendo talked about redefining a video game platform, again apparently explicitly avoiding using the term "system". This one in particular seems to point to even more than two form factors!

And above all, a single SKU doesn't really make sense IMHO because it's far too risky.

Redefining a vg platform was at least in part about their upcoming mobile strategy announcement, where the exact same language was used.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

Any chance we can leave the OLED vs LCD discussion and just post a link to one of the numerous threads in which it was discussed before, where all the same links and points were posted ad infinitum? People aren't going to change their minds now.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Hell, I'll do you one better: in Japanese, the word Kimishima keeps using is "ki," meaning "machine." Singular. One machine.

Thanks for clarification on this! I'd noticed it in device as well as system, good to know it's also singular in Japanese.

 

[Turrican3]

Redefining a vg platform was at least in part about their upcoming mobile strategy announcement, where the exact same language was used.

Hmm, can't remember this right now.

Was it in the DeNA announcement as well?

 

[Graphics Horse]

Hmm, can't remember this right now.

Was it in the DeNA announcement as well?

Yeah. can't link but if you google iwata redefine DeNA you'll see the quotes.

 

[Turrican3]

Thanks, I'll give it a look.

 

[Rodin]

OLED's image retention/burn-in issues pretty much disqualify it from being suitable for a game system, though.

Burn-in on OLED displays is almost non-existent, and image retention disappears after a few minutes at worst in the few cases it happens. After a certain amount of hours it becomes even harder to have ir on an OLED screen, this isn't plasma and the panel used in the first model of the Vita is VERY old now.

 

[Turrican3]

Yeah. can't link but if you google iwata redefine DeNA you'll see the quotes.

Found it:

Also, until now, when we said, “platform,” it meant a specific video game platform. Now that we are going to release games on smart devices and make use of globally widespread PCs and smart devices for our new membership service, we would like to offer more consumers with software that is suited to their tastes. In other words, we are challenging ourselves to redefine what “Nintendo platforms” mean.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/release/en/2015/150317/05.html

I believe this strengthens my point of Nintendo using the term platform to refer a multi-SKU scenario.

 

[Branduil]

Thanks for clarification on this! I'd noticed it in device as well as system, good to know it's also singular in Japanese.

Well, I'm not an expert or anything in Japanese, but although there are ways to specify the amount of a noun, Japanese does not generally have singular/plural in the same way as English. I don't know if "ki" can be used to mean multiple machines, but that would be pretty typical.

 

[Skittzo0413]

He was just saying he thinks that Nintendo is going to make just 1 piece of hardware.

I'm not saying that can't/won't happen, but everything NIntendo said (and the type of portable that would be needed to run Zelda Wii U on the NX) doesn't add up to that.

Iwata mentioned iOS only 10 months before revealing the codename of Nintendo's next platform.

I don't know. :-\
Unless I'm misunderstanding due to language issues, you're basically talking about a hybrid.

NX was announced as a platform though, and this term was used subsequently more than once by Nintendo.

I believe this could be a very significant hint towards a multiple form factors strategy (not to mention Iwata explicitly said merging home and handheld R&D was not going to mean producing only one machine) when we consider Nintendo talked about redefining a video game platform, again apparently explicitly avoiding using the term "system". This one in particular seems to point to even more than two form factors!

And above all, a single SKU doesn't really make sense IMHO because it's far too risky.

Okay look, I agree with both of you that there will likely be more than one SKU, and likely a handheld and console, and I've actually been one of the ones to think that Nintnedo will be releasing both on the same day.

But the point I was trying to make is that most of us have been taking for granted that the "future Nintendo hardware" which Iwata had talked about pre-NX announcement IS the NX, but now that we look back at the quotes and all of the other rumors we have we see that the pre-NX "future hardware" quotes might not necessarily be referring explicitly to NX.

NX MIGHT just be a specific code name for a piece of hardware which falls in line with the "future Nintendo hardware" vision that Iwata laid out from 2013-2014. Nintendo has seemingly been referring to the term "NX" as if it's a single product, which is why this might be the case.

That doesn't mean they won't release multiple SKUs within a short period of time, all it means is that when they refer to NX they could be referring to one specific SKU.

But the point is the specific quotes in which Iwata refers to ecosystems and makes the iOS and Android comparison, the "like brothers" comment, do not reference the term "NX" because "NX" was not yet announced.

Again, it's a subtle distinction, but given the title of this thread which uses the phrase "NX handheld," it's important to keep in mind that no one but Nintendo at this point seemingly knows for sure if the NX itself is a single product, a line of products, an OS, or what.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Well, I'm not an expert or anything in Japanese, but although there are ways to specify the amount of a noun, Japanese does not generally have singular/plural in the same way as English. I don't know if "ki" can be used to mean multiple machines, but that would be pretty typical.

I was concious of that but am trusting Kobun Heat to know what he's talking about, hopefully...

 

[Durante]

Thank you!

The OLED love fest that happened when the Vita launched made absolutely no sense. It's terrible for anything you're going to keep around for a while due to image retention, dimming and issues with uniformity across the display.

The Vita used a pretty low-end OLED display. And yet it's still far superior in actual gaming-related parameters to pretty much any LCD you can buy.

 

[maxcriden]

I'm saying Nintendo is not going to make just a handheld because they can't make one that plays Zelda Wii U. And they said Zelda Wii U will be on NX.

And when I say they can't make one I mean for the pricepoint and reasonable design Nintendo traditionally aims for.

Oh, ok. I think I understand, thanks for clarifying. I don't know if anyone is expecting only a HH and no console component, though. FWIW, it seems others believe the NX HH even at a Nintendo pricepoint could run Zelda U downscaled.

 

[dr_rus]

The Vita used a pretty low-end OLED display. And yet it's still far superior in actual gaming-related parameters to pretty much any LCD you can buy.

Yeah, Vita OLED display is miles above anything else when it comes to gaming uses.

 

[KingSnake]

And when I say they can't make one I mean for the pricepoint and reasonable design Nintendo traditionally aims for.

In this very thread we had some assumption for some configs that would match pricepoint and reasonable design for the handheld, using Tegra chips, and at the same time could run Zelda Wii U at 480p or 540p.

But when we think about 1 NX device, it's not that there will be 1 pure handheld or 1 pure console, but rather one that would allow some kind of transformation or switching between factors. If it will use the SCD patent or some other "gimmick" we don't know yet. In my opinion this might be the "different way to play" that Kimishima is talking about.

It could also be that Nintendo doesn't plan to launch more than 1 form factor in the short term and we'll have just one device launching in March 2017 and that's why they always talk about 1 device.

 

[Eradicate]

Hell, I'll do you one better: in Japanese, the word Kimishima keeps using is "ki," meaning "machine." Singular. One machine.

OK, that contributed nothing.

Great post

Here's what Iwata said in May 2014:

"Last year Nintendo reorganized its R&D divisions and integrated the handheld device and home console development teams into one division under Mr. Takeda. Previously, our handheld video game devices and home video game consoles had to be developed separately as the technological requirements of each system, whether it was battery-powered or connected to a power supply, differed greatly, leading to completely different architectures and, hence, divergent methods of software development. However, because of vast technological advances, it became possible to achieve a fair degree of architectural integration. We discussed this point, and we ultimately concluded that it was the right time to integrate the two teams.

For example, currently it requires a huge amount of effort to port Wii software to Nintendo 3DS because not only their resolutions but also the methods of software development are entirely different. The same thing happens when we try to port Nintendo 3DS software to Wii U. If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms. Also, as technological advances took place at such a dramatic rate, and we were forced to choose the best technologies for video games under cost restrictions, each time we developed a new platform, we always ended up developing a system that was completely different from its predecessor. The only exception was when we went from Nintendo GameCube to Wii. Though the controller changed completely, the actual computer and graphics chips were developed very smoothly as they were very similar to those of Nintendo GameCube, but all the other systems required ground-up effort. However, I think that we no longer need this kind of effort under the current circumstances. In this perspective, while we are only going to be able to start this with the next system, it will become important for us to accurately take advantage of what we have done with the Wii U architecture. It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately. When this happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems.

Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future."



*****************

This all points to an ARM architecture across the board. I'd almost bet money on it after reading this again for the 3rd time.

It probably means more than 1 form factor given that NX will run Zelda Wii U.

And another argument for more than 1 form factor says: Some customers will have no interest in a handheld and just want a console. And those customers would buy just a console even if that console was only as powerful as the handheld. They would do this because that console would be cheaper than the handheld because the console wouldn't have to have a screen nor battery. Think along the lines of the cost of an Apple TV vs the cost of an iPad or iPhone. And Nintendo would make this happen because they want to get hardware into as many hands as possible so they can sell as much software as possible. And so no matter what, we're going to get 2 form factors.


Also note the phrase "adequately absorb the Wii U architecture." This doesn't necessarily mean it has to be as powerful or more powerful.

Bringing the ideas together, what if the handheld part (with the screen and buttons that you can take with you) could plug into the console part like those "desktopifiers" for laptops? This way, you'd get additional ports, maybe new functions, maybe increased performance (like SCD!). Like the Wii U kind of, but they actually combine. The kicker, though, is that the console part has many of the innards of the handheld for those who just want a gaming box to hook to their TV. The console could be the cheaper entry point (like 2DS vs. 3DS) for those who just want it (think Mac Mini). It's power would be the same as the handheld. The handheld is available for those who want the screen and mobility (iPad/Phone/Whatever). Together they can juice up and create much more and lend additional features and performance (iMac/MacBook).

 

[MuchoMalo]

How do you read that? Not blowing it away could be literally anywhere from severely underpowered to slightly above.

In terms of raw power, numerous sources tell me that NX is much closer to Xbox One than PlayStation 4. Even that might be stretching it a tiny bit. Anyone who is claiming that NX is “two times the power of PS4 GPU” is being misled by their sources. Based on what I’ve heard, I don’t believe the NX will compete directly with PS4 (Neo) / PS4K in raw power.

Most people are reading that last sentence as only referring to Neo, but I'm pretty sure that it's actually referring to both Base and Neo, which is why "Neo" is in parenthesis.

 

[Ushojax]

OK, that contributed nothing.





Bringing the ideas together, what if the handheld part (with the screen and buttons that you can take with you) could plug into the console part like those "desktopifiers" for laptops? This way, you'd get additional ports, maybe new functions, maybe increased performance (like SCD!). Like the Wii U kind of, but they actually combine. The kicker, though, is that the console part has many of the innards of the handheld for those who just want a gaming box to hook to their TV. The console could be the cheaper entry point (like 2DS vs. 3DS) for those who just want it (think Mac Mini). It's power would be the same as the handheld. The handheld is available for those who want the screen and mobility (iPad/Phone/Whatever). Together they can juice up and create much more and lend additional features and performance (iMac/MacBook).

Iwata's vision seems fairly clear. From now on, all Nintendo hardware will have a common architecture that makes it much easier to develop software for whichever form factors Nintendo offers. They will offer handheld and home console SKUs that are all part of one family, just like iPhone, iPad and iMac. Developers will be able to service multiple platforms with much less hassle than in the past.

It's not going to be a hybrid console or something where you connect the two for more power. Nintendo will not force consumers to buy two machines to get a full console experience.

 

[Somnid]

All of the top-tier mobile displays are LCD. You guys might have a hard-on for OLED but it doesn't deliver in real life unless we're talking $10k TVs. The highest rated currently being the iPad Pro which is an IGZO screen: http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm. Even more importantly they cost less to produce. They aren't going away.

 

[Eradicate]

Iwata's vision seems fairly clear. From now on, all Nintendo hardware will have a common architecture that makes it much easier to develop software for whichever form factors Nintendo offers. They will offer handheld and home console SKUs that are all part of one family, just like iPhone, iPad and iMac. Developers will be able to service multiple platforms with much less hassle than in the past.

It's not going to be a hybrid console or something where you connect the two for more power. Nintendo will not force consumers to buy two machines to get a full console experience.

Right! That's exactly what I said! I don't think you need to have both form factors to have the full console experience though; I just think it "could" boost performance by having both (if they go the SCD route with this yet or not). It doesn't have to though, and could lend extra functionality. They already have patents out there relating to cradles offering extra features...they are related to QOL, but it could still translate over into gaming.

I mean, if they can potentially get the handheld itself, screen and all, to run a Wii U game, that's incredible. Remove the screen and such and provide a cheap console for those who want to plug it into the TV or whatever screen they want, great! I (personally) consider both to be "full" experiences. Buuuut, if you COULD boost performance by having both and could conceivably achieve performance at least matching the Neo (if not slightly exceeding it), then all the better! You have different entry points in cost, different choices based on your needs, one single library contained within NintendOS for both, and the ability to scale past the performance of the other systems. Lots of wins!

 

[Earendil]

It was garbage.

"The Cleveland Browns" would also have been an acceptable answer.

 

[MuchoMalo]

All of the top-tier mobile displays are LCD. You guys might have a hard-on for OLED but it doesn't deliver in real life unless we're talking $10k TVs. The highest rated currently being the iPad Pro which is an IGZO screen: http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm. Even more importantly they cost less to produce. They aren't going away.

Samsung says "hi."

 

[bomblord1]

Most people are reading that last sentence as only referring to Neo, but I'm pretty sure that it's actually referring to both Base and Neo, which is why "Neo" is in parenthesis.

The Neo wouldn't have been there at all if she was referring to just the PS4 its there because she is specifically referring to the 4tf system.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

The Vita used a pretty low-end OLED display. And yet it's still far superior in actual gaming-related parameters to pretty much any LCD you can buy.

No it didn't, it used the latest OLED tech on the market, the same tech shipping in the Galaxy S II (Super AMOLED Plus), with the same RGB stripe instead of PenTile.

The next generation of OLED displays didn't arrive until the Galaxy S III, where Samsung started removing RGB for PenTile in order to preserve the lifespan of the display before it deteriorates (Samsung estimated 18 months).

The problem with the Vita's OLED was that OLED at the time was still in its infancy as far as quality goes, so even the best OLED display had a lot of issues (low brightness, burn-in, mura/uneven colour production, high power consumption, inaccurate colours, poor calibration). But yes, it did have a great refresh rate for gaming, and the black levels are still best-in-class, even if nothing on Vita utilised them.

Refresh rate and black levels aside, everything else about it was objectively worse than the comparable LCD panels at the time (like the one in the iPhone 5, or iPad 3).

The tech has caught up with LCD in some of the areas for which it has deficiencies, but as pointed out, the best display on the market is currently an LCD panel in the iPad Pro 9.7", which is also largely aided by good software (it automatically switches between two industry standards for colour gamut depending on the content displayed).

Anyway, this is the last post I'll make on the matter - didn't want to comment any more but the discussion ended up coming back somehow.

 

[Schnozberry]

Care to elaborate? I thought it would be pretty stable since they could use the Wii's as a starting point.

They switched compilers about 6 months before release and didn't release the final dev kits until roughly 3 months prior to software needing to go gold. There was no English documentation for the SDK, and most third parties would see a turnaround time of several days to a week from Nintendo on development problems or questions.

There is a quote from Miyamoto from around holiday 2013 where he talks about being unable to rpovide developers with good tools to get the best performance out of the Wii until well into 2013. I'll have to see if I can track it down.

 

[tr1p1ex]

Bringing the ideas together, what if the handheld part (with the screen and buttons that you can take with you) could plug into the console part like those "desktopifiers" for laptops? This way, you'd get additional ports, maybe new functions, maybe increased performance (like SCD!). Like the Wii U kind of, but they actually combine. The kicker, though, is that the console part has many of the innards of the handheld for those who just want a gaming box to hook to their TV. The console could be the cheaper entry point (like 2DS vs. 3DS) for those who just want it (think Mac Mini). It's power would be the same as the handheld. The handheld is available for those who want the screen and mobility (iPad/Phone/Whatever). Together they can juice up and create much more and lend additional features and performance (iMac/MacBook).

In my experience I don't see that happening. It would be too expensive for one. IT's not just a dock with ports. It would have to connect the circuitry of the handheld with that of the console.

It's too convoluted an idea for Nintendo's market. Another complication to market to consumers.

And how many are going to have both and use both at the same time? Nintendo would have to support this combination and these types of scenarios (where something isn't in the box) tend to have much smaller install bases.

 

[Jackano]

Gamer Developers GAF:

If I understand this right, theoretically, giving UE4 already supports Vulkan, it should be a good point to get NX quickly having UE4?
What kind of UE component could possibly require nearly as much work as the graphics one?


Zelda on NX handheld (the return):
I don't think I've posted this part of my opinion on this topic, for some reason I hadn't that in mind earlier this week: Because of the incremental hardware upgrades, I don't see the hurry to get Zelda UNX possible on the first NX handheld. It can wait one, or even two handheld upgrades to get it properly. Thus, "getting Zelda UNX on the handheld to prove the shared library concept" still isn't a strong argument to me, against a cheap, far from Wii U performance handheld. And so it can wait the upgrades to get closer and properly making it run... even maybe on the larger screen than 480/540p, 3 or 4 years from now.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I don't think that will be completely off base Fourth Storm, good to see more people thinking out of the box.

I don't know if it's exactly what you describe, but I'm also more and more thinking about NX being one system with transformation capabilities, whatever those might be. Too much new info points to this while the only info that supposedly contradicts this is already too old to be written in stone.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one around here thinking this way.

I absolutely love this post, not necessarily because you are right about what the NX will be (you may well be) but because:

1. It highlights how little we actually know for sure about the NX and Nintendo's plans

2. It proves that the NX may very well be a drastically different type of video game hardware which will greatly surprise people when it's finally revealed.

I agree with you that the NX will not be a traditional console or traditional handheld, and you make a great point that when discussing the NX Nintendo typically talks about it like it's a single system and not the ecosystem which was described way back before the NX codename was announced. So when we say NX console and NX handheld I really doubt that's how Nintendo is proceeding with the products. Rather, it will be NX: A... something, then their next device which may or may not be complementary to the NX, codenamed NY (why not).

Also can you give me a link to that Takeda quote? I tried searching for it a couple weeks ago with no luck when I was trying to bring up evidence pointing to the "brand new concept" involving a new input mechanism.

Thanks for reading all that. haha. Seems like we're on the same page. Here's the source of that Takeda quote

Takeda wasnt behind 3DS. Hideki Konno was.
I never said Vita was well designed. But at least it got things right in the sense that it was modern enough to support middleware. Althought the system screen is too high res for its GPU.

Takeda was in charge of both Wii and Wii U. And he's the one behind the low power consumption crap. And also the terrible Wii U hardware design.

Actually, Ko Shiota is the head of their hardware division now. He designed the Wii and the Wii U. It probably won't make much difference, since Takeda is still at the top as "Technology fellow" and the Nintendo ideology is pretty much ingrained into the culture there. Still, with the recent hires at NTD, we might be seeing a different and better way to realize those ideologies (low power, reasonable cost, decent performance).

See what you're doing Nintendo? Driving otherwise sane poster to the brink of madness!

Who said I was ever sane?

Iwata talked about IOS and how it runs on different form factors. And that's what they are trying to do with the NX.

So NX is virtual platform. It's a Nintendo OS. IT's not hardware.

I don't see any evidence that there will only be 1 form factor. There could be. But the evidence I see says more than 1 form factor. As you said, Iwata has said we could see more form factors. He cites NX as analogous to iOS. And clearly the west likes its consoles while the east likes its handhelds.

Nintendo has also said Zelda Wii U will also be released for the NX. I don't see a Nintendo handheld running Zelda Wii U next March based on the size and pricepoint and battery life that Nintendo traditionally has strived for in a handheld.

But I do think they will be marketing 1 platform next gen instead of 2 systems. And most games will run on any form factor, but probably not all. This doesn't necessarily mean 1 sku for every form factor. IT could mean 2 skus - 1 for handheld and 1 for console. But in both cases it means more software per form factor.

Quite possible they could make more than stationary form factor too. They could make a console with less power like their handheld. And they could make a more powerful console that could give better visuals and have a better chance of being targeted by western 3rd parties.

But we can agree that we know nothing. Nintendo has said little. And we'll find out later in the year what it's really all about.

I definitely think that Nintendo will add more devices in the future and that they will all run on the same OS and use the same toolset. There will likely be a good deal of cross play as well. Where I am differing from you at the moment is in my thinking that "NX" refers to this platform. There will be a unified gaming platform, but there seem to be indicators that NX will be the first piece of hardware in this new ecosystem and not just a word to describe said ecosystem.

Hell, I'll do you one better: in Japanese, the word Kimishima keeps using is "ki," meaning "machine." Singular. One machine.

Now, that's interesting! Man, I wish I had stuck w/ Japanese in college.

 

[Eradicate]

In my experience I don't see that happening. It would be too expensive for one. IT's not just a dock with ports. It would have to connect the circuitry of the handheld with that of the console.

It's too convoluted an idea for Nintendo's market. Another complication to market to consumers.

And how many are going to have both and use both at the same time? Nintendo would have to support this combination and these types of scenarios (where something isn't in the box) tend to have much smaller install bases.

Why would the console be more expensive than the handheld if they have essentially the same parts but without the screen and battery? You have to have a controller, sure, but I don't get why that would be more expensive? And as far as connecting the circuitry and all that...it's really just an "amplifier" and nothing convoluted. There are already devices out there that do this with laptops, and you could boost RAM performance via flash drive back in the day. It's just a booster, and could be as simple as the handheld (once connected) could start handling things like the OS and other stuff to free up resources for the console part.

And claiming the idea is too convoluted for Nintendo's market...the company that built R.O.B.?! GBAs that have all sorts of cords to connect to the Gamecube? Expansion packs for the N64? Come on...

Plus, plenty of people own both of a company's handheld and console. Nintendo fans have been doing this forever, and Sony owners have gotten extra features for owning both a Vita and PS4. It's really not some wild out there idea. This combination has existed for a while now and is easier than ever this day and age.

 

[Fourth Storm]

But that's exactly Fourth Storm's point- Iwata never compared the NX to iOS. He compared Nintendo's new and future hardware ecosystem to iOS and Android but that was years before codename NX was announced.

We've all been taking for granted that NX WAS this new ecosystem, but really I'm not sure about this anymore. NX could very well be the first device to come out in that new ecosystem. It's really not a huge distinction but it's worth noting, especially when we have this article explicitly using the phrase "NX handheld" when there's really no reason to believe there will be an NX handheld and an NX console, the way Nintendo's been talking about it.

Instead it'll likely be "Here's the NX!" Then a year or two later, "Here's the NY!" or whatever. That was Fourth Storm's point (from what I gathered anyway).

Yeah, that's pretty much spot. The only thing worth clarifying is that "NX handheld" is my wording. Charlie refers simply to "NX", while elsewhere calling it a handheld and claiming that reports of AMD getting the deal are WRONG. IHS also says an independently operable handheld is on the way and that suppliers are expecting a small surge in 3"-5" LCDs in part due to NX. This doesn't mesh with what we've been hearing about the CPU (lcgeek) and overall performance (Emily Rogers). There's definitely a console portion according the the WSJ as well.

 

[tr1p1ex]

In this very thread we had some assumption for some configs that would match pricepoint and reasonable design for the handheld, using Tegra chips, and at the same time could run Zelda Wii U at 480p or 540p.

But when we think about 1 NX device, it's not that there will be 1 pure handheld or 1 pure console, but rather one that would allow some kind of transformation or switching between factors. If it will use the SCD patent or some other "gimmick" we don't know yet. In my opinion this might be the "different way to play" that Kimishima is talking about.

It could also be that Nintendo doesn't plan to launch more than 1 form factor in the short term and we'll have just one device launching in March 2017 and that's why they always talk about 1 device.

Yeah and those assumptions are no more than there's a mobile chip coming out soon that is "X" fast according to the manufacturer so it will work.

There's more to it than that. Cost, form factor, cost, size, battery life, heat, noise.. etc.


One measure to judge how practical it would be for Zelda Wii U to appear on a Nintendo handheld early next year is to look at what's out on mobile devices now. Do we see the same type of game on mobile as a Zelda Wii U? Any game at all that makes the case that Zelda Wii U can run on Nintendo's next handheld? I can't find a current mobile game that makes me believe Zelda Wii U on a handheld next March is realistic. And I'm not even limiting myself to it only working on <$250 mobile devices.

 

[Jackano]

@Fourth Storm:
I havn't read all your posts, so I don't know if you've thinked of this already.
Also I don't believe myself in this theory, at least not before another couple years (they are definitely doing hardware themselves at first again).


Thanks to NX platform, Nintendo could agree to let other constructors build NX consoles.
Just like Samsung and Panasonic makes Android phones. I don't cite Matsushita/Panasonic randomly.

Panasonic made the Q. Thanks to some another kind of partnership, Nintendo could let them doing a NX console with extended media functionalities, but the game OS is still the same NX platform.
Same with other companies, if you prefer a more powerfull NX console and/or Samsung design (example), go for a Samsung unit.

Nintendo already barely never do money on the hardware. And we can imagine they will still keep control on the accessories/controllers somehow.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one around here thinking this way.


Thanks for reading all that. haha. Seems like we're on the same page. Here's the source of that Takeda quote

Ah thanks! Rereading that quote in context it actually seems like less of a confirmation (to me) that there will be a new input "gimmick" even if I might want one. Seems that quote specifically is more focused on user interface than actual input mechanics, and how the user interface may be shared between multiple devices.

There's going to be quite a lot of confusion and disappointment when the NX device comes out and it's just one device at first with no shared library or ecosystem. Talking about a specific code name (NX) and the general direction their hardware business is going in together in the same briefings is awfully confusing, and add onto that the translation barrier and we here are absolutely clueless about what exactly is coming next March.

Edit:

Yeah, that's pretty much spot. The only thing worth clarifying is that "NX handheld" is my wording. Charlie refers simply to "NX", while elsewhere calling it a handheld and claiming that reports of AMD getting the deal are WRONG. IHS also says an independently operable handheld is on the way and that suppliers are expecting a small surge in 3"-5" LCDs in part due to NX. This doesn't mesh with what we've been hearing about the CPU (lcgeek) and overall performance (Emily Rogers). There's definitely a console portion according the the WSJ as well.

Ah, I was wondering exactly how it was worded in the article, thanks. Honestly, the CPU range and overall performance rumors don't necessarily mean the NX isn't just a handheld. Nintendo could be coming out with a surprisingly high end handheld device which can output visuals similar to PS4/XB1 for all we know, maybe a tablet competitor. And as for that WSJ article we can't be sure how accurate it is, since it was last October I believe, which is going to end up being about a year and a half from when the NX releases.

The NX could totally be a handheld and console, but I think you and I agree that Nintendo themselves seem to be referring to it as a single system/console/platform, while a lot of the rumors seem to take for granted that it will be both, which lines up with Nintendo's pre-NX discussions about their future hardware.

It's really all semantics at this point, but again it highlights how much we are assuming and how little we actually have confirmed directly from Nintendo.

Edit2:

@Fourth Storm:
I havn't read all your posts, so I don't know if you've thinked of this already.
Also I don't believe myself in this theory, at least not before another couple years (they are definitely doing hardware themselves at first again).


Thanks to NX platform, Nintendo could agree to let other constructors build NX consoles.
Just like Samsung and Panasonic makes Android phones. I don't cite Matsushita/Panasonic randomly.

Panasonic made the Q. Thanks to some another kind of partnership, Nintendo could let them doing a NX console with extended media functionalities, but the game OS is still the same NX platform.
Same with other companies, if you prefer a more powerfull NX console and/or Samsung design (example), go for a Samsung unit.

Nintendo already barely never do money on the hardware. And we can imagine they will still keep control on the accessories/controllers somehow.

From what I recall, Nintendo likes to have very close control over their hardware not to make money off the hardware, but to get direct feedback from their development teams about what the hardware should focus on. This is how Nintendo's teams like EAD (EPD) manage to get stunning visuals out of a console as weak as the Wii- they know the ins and outs of every little component because their hardware teams designed it specifically around their requests.

This doesn't mean Nintendo couldn't get a third party to make their hardware with similar constant communication and feedback, but it seems like it's just an unnecessary expensive middleman. I don't know though, you might be on to something.

 

[Branduil]

Yeah and those assumptions are no more than there's a mobile chip coming out soon that is "X" fast according to the manufacturer so it will work.

There's more to it than that. Cost, form factor, cost, size, battery life, heat, noise.. etc.


One measure to judge how practical it would be for Zelda Wii U to appear on a Nintendo handheld early next year is to look at what's out on mobile devices now. Do we see the same type of game on mobile as a Zelda Wii U? Any game at all that makes the case that Zelda Wii U can run on Nintendo's next handheld? I can't find a current mobile game that makes me believe Zelda Wii U on a handheld next March is realistic. And I'm not even limiting myself to it only working on <$250 mobile devices.

GTA: San Andreas is available on mobile devices.

Seems a bit pointless to speculate what would be required for Zelda Wii U to run on a handheld when we don't even know that much about either, but it doesn't seem like it would be impossible. I'm sure some things would have to be sacrificed in comparison to the console versions, but mobile chipsets get more and more powerful with each passing day.

 

[Durante]

No it didn't, it used the latest OLED tech on the market, the same tech shipping in the Galaxy S II (Super AMOLED Plus), with the same RGB stripe instead of PenTile.

Just because it's in the same category and uses the same subpixel layout doesn't make it the same quality display, at all. That's a bit like saying every IPS panel is the same.

I bought a Galaxy S2 in May 2011 at its release and used it for 4.5 years, and the display on that device was of a significantly higher quality than the one in Vita (bought and released in early 2012). Just as an example, the S2 never had any issues at all with Mura.

But yes, it did have a great refresh rate for gaming, and the black levels are still best-in-class

That's what it really boils down to, isn't it? No LCD technology can even remotely compete in these crucial aspects. TN is the only one which has somewhat acceptable pixel switching times, but other than that, the less is said about TN the better. IPS is everyone's favourite for some reason, but its contrast ratio and blacks are at TN levels, and worse than the displays we used for gaming in the 90s. And VA isn't even used in any portable devices. It has much better contrast but needs really good overdrive to even enter into consideration for gaming.

What I notice and what annoys me greatly about display discussion and reviews -- as someone who has been closely following all display technologies since the first rumours of SED surfaced as CRT was on its way out -- is that for the most part, there is exactly one set of quality metrics used to evaluate a given display regardless of its intended use case. That's just silly. Yes, I use a calibrated IPS panel for work, but just because it has really accurate reproduction doesn't make it a good fit for gaming (given the switching times) or even media consumption (because of the mediocre at best black levels) -- which is also a factor for gaming!

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

Zelda on NX handheld (the return):
I don't think I've posted this part of my opinion on this topic, for some reason I hadn't that in mind earlier this week: Because of the incremental hardware upgrades, I don't see the hurry to get Zelda UNX possible on the first NX handheld. It can wait one, or even two handheld upgrades to get it properly. Thus, "getting Zelda UNX on the handheld to prove the shared library concept" still isn't a strong argument to me, against a cheap, far from Wii U performance handheld. And so it can wait the upgrades to get closer and properly making it run... even maybe on the larger screen than 480/540p, 3 or 4 years from now.

I agree that waiting would be easier, but I disagree that they can afford to. If they want to sell the idea of a shared library, and that's integral to their pitch with the NX going forward, then they need to show it working with their flagship title ASAP. It's this kind of proof of concept that sells the system, and the lack of which for the GamePad was one reason it was seen as an albatross around the Wii U's neck.

If they go with a cheap handheld, that can't play one of their own biggest sellers, then the concept of the shared library gets somewhat kneecapped.

 

[KingSnake]

One measure to judge how practical it would be for Zelda Wii U to appear on a Nintendo handheld early next year is to look at what's out on mobile devices now. Do we see the same type of game on mobile as a Zelda Wii U? Any game at all that makes the case that Zelda Wii U can run on Nintendo's next handheld? I can't find a current mobile game that makes me believe Zelda Wii U on a handheld next March is realistic. And I'm not even limiting myself to it only working on <$250 mobile devices.

You use a market limitation to justify a hardware limitation. You know why you don't see a game like Zelda on mobile and you won't see it in a long time from now on? Because you can't sell a mobile game for $50-60. So nobody is crazy to spend millions for developing a mobile game when you can spend much less and earn more.

 

[tr1p1ex]

Why would the console be more expensive than the handheld if they have essentially the same parts but without the screen and battery? You have to have a controller, sure, but I don't get why that would be more expensive? And as far as connecting the circuitry and all that...it's really just an "amplifier" and nothing convoluted. There are already devices out there that do this with laptops, and you could boost RAM performance via flash drive back in the day. It's just a booster, and could be as simple as the handheld (once connected) could start handling things like the OS and other stuff to free up resources for the console part.

And claiming the idea is too convoluted for Nintendo's market...the company that built R.O.B.?! GBAs that have all sorts of cords to connect to the Gamecube? Expansion packs for the N64? Come on...

Plus, plenty of people own both of a company's handheld and console. Nintendo fans have been doing this forever, and Sony owners have gotten extra features for owning both a Vita and PS4. It's really not some wild out there idea. This combination has existed for a while now and is easier than ever this day and age.

Look up at the cost of a external graphics card slot for the pc. Nintendo would just make the console more powerful instead as it would cost less and it would be simpler.

You're not talking a relatively inexpensive peripheral for a few games or a feature that lets your handheld talk to your console etc. You're essentially talking a 3rd device created by combining 2 other devices.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Just because it's in the same category and uses the same subpixel layout doesn't make it the same quality display, at all. That's a bit like saying every IPS panel is the same.

I bought a Galaxy S2 in May 2011 at its release and used it for 4.5 years, and the display on that device was of a significantly higher quality than the one in Vita (bought and released in early 2012). Just as an example, the S2 never had any issues at all with Mura.

That's what it really boils down to, isn't it? No LCD technology can even remotely compete in these crucial aspects. TN is the only one which has somewhat acceptable pixel switching times, but other than that, the less is said about TN the better. IPS is everyone's favourite for some reason, but its contrast ratio and blacks are at TN levels, and worse than the displays we used for gaming in the 90s. And VA isn't even used in any portable devices. It has much better contrast but needs really good overdrive to even enter into consideration for gaming.

What I notice and what annoys me greatly about display discussion and reviews -- as someone who has been closely following all display technologies since the first rumours of SED surfaced as CRT was on its way out -- is that for the most part, there is exactly one set of quality metrics used to evaluate a given display regardless of its intended use case. That's just silly. Yes, I use a calibrated IPS panel for work, but just because it has really accurate reproduction doesn't make it a good fit for gaming (given the switching times) or even media consumption (because of the mediocre at best black levels) -- which is also a factor for gaming!

You should go visit the threads for when the LCD screen vita revision was announced, they will make your skin crawl.

People really don't appreciate just how terrible LCD panels are at switching pixels and how big a pile of fundementally flawed compromise they are.

For all the flaws OLED tech has (the greatest of which is that it's still sample and hold, a flaw it shares with LCD) it does have pixels that produce their own light and that can switch hundreds of times faster. Those alone makes it objectively much superior for gaming.

 

[Jackano]

I agree that waiting would be easier, but I disagree that they can afford to. If they want to sell the idea of a shared library, and that's integral to their pitch with the NX going forward, then they need to show it working with their flagship title ASAP. It's this kind of proof of concept that sells the system, and the lack of which for the GamePad was one reason it was seen as an albatross around the Wii U's neck.

If they go with a cheap handheld, that can't play one of their own biggest sellers, then the concept of the shared library gets somewhat kneecapped.

The handheld is much further into 2017, or even 2018 for what we know; So maybe it will not be a problem after all.

But, assuming there is a strong push on the "shared library" selling point, you make another assumption that Zelda UNX is their flagship title:

We don't know that. Twilight Princess comparison? Quickly after the Nintendo fans/gamers/early adopters bought their Wii, TP wasn't anymore Wii's flagship title. It was Wii Sports.
In fact, because Kimishima decided to delay the NX in 2017 for software reasons, it is very likely the true NX flagship title won't be that crossgen game who was built for another hardware.

 

[Eradicate]

You use a market limitation to justify a hardware limitation. You know why you don't see a game like Zelda on mobile and you won't see it in a long time from now on? Because you can't sell a mobile game for $50-60. So nobody is crazy to spend millions for developing a mobile game when you can spend much less and earn more.

Exactly. Plus, "mobile" still has a focus on phones/tablets and all the uses that entails. They aren't built as dedicated gaming devices anyways.

Look up at the cost of a external graphics card slot for the pc. Nintendo would just make the console more powerful instead as it would cost less and it would be simpler.

You're not talking a relatively inexpensive peripheral for a few games or a feature that lets your handheld talk to your console etc. You're essentially talking a 3rd device created by combining 2 other devices.

I don't see how plugging something in that either bypasses certain things or adds onto (like additional memory) is that prohibitive at all. It's been done in much older technology. And I don't have any clue/idea what the "boost" would be or to what end. For all I know, just being able to have the additional memory the handheld can bring added onto the console's could provide a lot of help. I have no idea what they entail with their SCD patent; I'm basing it off of that. This is just a simple incarnation of that idea which has been done in the past multiple times, is still being done, and has been done by Nintendo themselves (again, Expansion Pack).

And this really isn't creating a third device at all. It's letting you get more out of what you already own.

 

[bomblord1]

Just because it's in the same category and uses the same subpixel layout doesn't make it the same quality display, at all. That's a bit like saying every IPS panel is the same.

I bought a Galaxy S2 in May 2011 at its release and used it for 4.5 years, and the display on that device was of a significantly higher quality than the one in Vita (bought and released in early 2012). Just as an example, the S2 never had any issues at all with Mura.

That's what it really boils down to, isn't it? No LCD technology can even remotely compete in these crucial aspects. TN is the only one which has somewhat acceptable pixel switching times, but other than that, the less is said about TN the better. IPS is everyone's favourite for some reason, but its contrast ratio and blacks are at TN levels, and worse than the displays we used for gaming in the 90s. And VA isn't even used in any portable devices. It has much better contrast but needs really good overdrive to even enter into consideration for gaming.

What I notice and what annoys me greatly about display discussion and reviews -- as someone who has been closely following all display technologies since the first rumours of SED surfaced as CRT was on its way out -- is that for the most part, there is exactly one set of quality metrics used to evaluate a given display regardless of its intended use case. That's just silly. Yes, I use a calibrated IPS panel for work, but just because it has really accurate reproduction doesn't make it a good fit for gaming (given the switching times) or even media consumption (because of the mediocre at best black levels) -- which is also a factor for gaming!

What exactly is pixel switching time and how does it factor into gaming? If I'm thinking of what you're thinking of (what manufacturers market as "response time") don't most IPS displays have pixel switching time at or under 5ms?

 

[Turrican3]

But the point I was trying to make is that most of us have been taking for granted that the "future Nintendo hardware" which Iwata had talked about pre-NX announcement IS the NX, but now that we look back at the quotes and all of the other rumors we have we see that the pre-NX "future hardware" quotes might not necessarily be referring explicitly to NX.

This is something I can easily agree with.

Nintendo has seemingly been referring to the term "NX" as if it's a single product

That's basically my point: Nintendo more often than not has talked about NX using the term platform. I believe they've been doing that on purpose, the reason being NX will actually turn out to be a family of products.