Hands of Stone
Member
Once you get to Mission 2 is when the real fun begins.
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SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
- Thread starter Love Deterrence
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Once you get to Mission 2 is when the real fun begins.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
This is damned hard to watch. The guy can't seem to get past the tutorial.
It's even better than MGS 2 finale... I mean Kojima pushed the limit a bit too much by saying that the whole operation was a way to make an AI learn how to train better soldiers...
robotoboy20
Banned
From what I understand facial surgery, and brain washing.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Facial surgery.
This the guy's Twitter.
http://twitter.com/Word
And holy crap, he just nailed a stupidly long tranq-gun headshot, impressive ;-)
Springfoot
Member
This is reasonable enough within the context of MGS goofiness, *if* it turns out he wasn't in a 9 year coma but was instead going through training. The whole 'anyone can be anything, don't let your dreams be dreams' aspect of it is funny to me, given that the Navy SEALs have an 80% washout rate, and the Boss/Snake characters were supposed to be legendary heroes to even these special forces groups.
I still think it's a dumb and underwhelming twist for the series to end with; however, with Big Boss's character proving to be too afraid of getting assassinated to be a leader to his own soldiers, choosing instead hiding behind a brainwashed puppet. I'll reserve final judgement based on how it plays out in the actual cutscenes, but based on the info we have, it looks like a radical shift in character for Big Boss, someone who had become charismatic enough to inspire an entire nation's worth of soldiers to leave their homelands to follow him.
Personally, I really wanted to see how the charismatic supersoldier leader that was Big Boss descended into villainy (was he eventually beaten down and broken, did his ideology shift, did power ultimately corrupt, subtle combination of all the above, etc.?), but nope, we just get a punching bag fall guy.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Really late to the party on this and most probably know by now but Metal Gear Sahelanthropus makes a chimpanzee sound as a reference to the ape it is based on: Sahelanthropus tchadensis is an extinct hominine species that is dated to about 7 million years ago, possibly very close to the time of the chimpanzeehuman divergence. (Wikipedia)
Immaculate
Banned
the voice changed to keifer would make sense if it was him voice acting in TPP only yet he plays BB in GZ too
it seems more like a publicity stunt than anything
it seems more like a publicity stunt than anything
This twist just makes me mad. Not because of the ruse of it, or for how stupid and contrived it is, but because Kojima once again showing how much he loves Big Boss. People have been waiting since Snake Eater to see the complete transformation. But no, he can't possibly show Big Boss as a complete full bad guy (even though by GZ he's having documents shredded and nukes sunk to hide from the UN), it has to be literally an evil twin! For fuck's sake! It's probably the last proper MGS game and a major point in the story of the franchise and he goes with a bullshit cop out like that?
Maybe he was never all that good to start with.
Maybe he was never all that good to start with.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Ocelot just brought up the fact that he speaks Russian. I forgot about that.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
But it wasn't! S3 in MGS2 was a test to see if you could present a scenario to an individual, a context, and have them carry out your bidding because of their expectations and rationalizations.
They explicitly say that any soldier, no matter how able, would NOT actually be of much use. It was just a model, a method they would go on to apply to the population at large.
^ there you go.
stargateheaven
Member
sorry this is off topic but i ONLY just learned that kojima's voice is in mgs1 if you have a lot of kojima save games at the psycho mantis part.
This is really the only thing about the twist that bothers me, it looks like Kojima gets way too attached to his characters to really make depict them on a truly bad light, was hoping to see the actual Big Boss descent here.
Otherwise I guess its alright.
He made Solid Snake a dying old man because he hated Solid Snake.
He gave Big Boss an evil body double because he loves Big Boss.
Self_Destructive
Member
Who says you dont?
Yep. This is how I see it.
I mean I guess there's the chance, but based on what we know so far we at least know MG1 Big Boss was the double instead of BB himself.
That's exactly my problem with it. The medic's story itself? That's fine, more than fine, it's really fucking interesting, but the twist is just so... unnecessary. Why?
You can talk all you want about how the series constantly challenges the idea of how legends aren't naturally born, but instead grown into legends, but did Kojima really need to make this point once again in such an important moment?
People saying it's about being mad because we don't get to play as Big Boss are missing the point, because, well, we kinda do. When it comes to the gameplay, for all intents and purposes, that's Big Boss, we are playing as the character we wanted to play as. This is irrelevant. The point is that, in the end, we don't get to see his "transformation", which was pretty much the point of the game, or at least what people were excited about. We could play as any other character, that's not the improtant part.
It's not as much about the story itself being bad as it is about it being unnecessary. Just... why? It's not a bad concept, it's just... why?
You can talk all you want about how the series constantly challenges the idea of how legends aren't naturally born, but instead grown into legends, but did Kojima really need to make this point once again in such an important moment?
People saying it's about being mad because we don't get to play as Big Boss are missing the point, because, well, we kinda do. When it comes to the gameplay, for all intents and purposes, that's Big Boss, we are playing as the character we wanted to play as. This is irrelevant. The point is that, in the end, we don't get to see his "transformation", which was pretty much the point of the game, or at least what people were excited about. We could play as any other character, that's not the improtant part.
It's not as much about the story itself being bad as it is about it being unnecessary. Just... why? It's not a bad concept, it's just... why?
Self_Destructive
Member
Big Boss is literally the person who drives him MAD... I'd say this game makes BB out to be even more of a bad guy than he would be if it was he himself doing everything.
And there's nothing evil about the 'twin'... he's made to be that way... due to BB and co.
Just think about it.
bodyofanamerican
Member
He is indeed worthy of the code name Fox.
Yes, the medic's story is pretty cool. The fact that the descent we witness isn't Big Boss', in the other hand, not that much.
People have been speculating we don't play as the real Big Boss for quite some time, and I never really cared that much about it, because I guess I just assumed it would be something like Big Boss dying or whatever and the player character taking his place, then, well, he's pretty much Big Boss. It would still not be the same person that went through the transformation, but it would feel more legit, I guess? Less pointless, or something like that.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I wanted to see Big Boss turn evil as well, but as someone who didn't like BB that much and loves Solid Snake, this supposed twist if the spoilers are true actually makes me happy that we are technically not getting another Big Boss game lol. We get to play as some awesome new guy in the 80s creating our own Sons of Liberty Big Shell with a doggy, an almost naked sniper chick, and an early AI prototype mech.
And as others have pointed out, this also shows BB is manipulative. He does almost the same thing the Patriots do to Raiden. That may have been the point. In that sense it's not a retread of pulling the same gimmick twice but rather an illustration that both of their interpretations of the Boss' will were wrong. MGS4 tells that, MGSV shows that.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Kaz is gonna die, dude has already wasted one day on this mission.
Right?
People are horrible at interpreting these events. MGS V makes Big Boss more of a villain this way than if we played him and he just went mad, or got angry, over his troops being slaughtered.
Hands of Stone
Member
Forget who posted it but what if were playing as Gray Fox (no twists or BS like that) and watched BB as he descended into madness? That woulda been fucking sick.
EDIT- How is this guy still on the rescue mission? Sigh.
EDIT- How is this guy still on the rescue mission? Sigh.
Wow thanks! I remembered it all wrong then....
Right, but the issue people have with it still persists, we don't get to see the descent, he's just an asshole. The Phantom Pain becomes just a dumb and pointless retcon of MG1.
If he was already an asshole, and the events we go through make no difference, why even tell this story?
I think the twist works incredibly well and makes a lot of sense. Dare I say it's a stroke of genius in planning when you think about it-- I mean, even setting aside the MG1 implications. Bear with me here:
First, what seems to irk or disappoint some is the idea that "The Medic", someone who seems like a nobody is the one to take BB's place.
But let's think on that for a second.
OK, for starters, he's one of the MB soldiers who have been around BB for quite some time. He's seen what BB can do, and he knows all about the tales and experiences of BB-- why he is a legend in the first place.
However... I do think we're not supposed to look deep at who "The Medic" is in this case. "The Medic" is for all intents and purposes someone with no discernible personality, and we barely even see his face unless you do some trickery with the files from GZ. In fact, I'll go as far as to bet that if the game doesn't explicitly SAY that it was specifically that medic in the helicopter crash on a tape or in conversation or something, then it could have been almost anyone from MB.
When you think about it, a lot of those guys, if you've played Peace Walker, are quite capable of handling themselves if you decide to go out on an OP with them and can play them well. This allows for the perfect premise to insert the player himself into the role of Big Boss unlike how it was done before.
In those previous games, you were role-playing AS Jack, as Naked Snake, as Vic Boss, as Big Boss. You controlled him and lead him to his victories, but you were not taking on the role yourself, you were only seeing it play out.
In THIS game, however, this has changed. It is my belief that in this game, THE PLAYER *IS* Big Boss, because the role has finally been thrust onto them by the ancillary characters integral to Big Boss's operations, as well as BB himself. The intended effect upon completing the game in this case is a great sense of PERSONAL betrayal upon learning that you are nothing but a phantom for the REAL Big Boss. He (and his close buddies) have played *YOU* in an effort to keep the real Big Boss alive and out of harm's way for the time being. You learn this after everything you have gone through, building up your Mother Base only to have to perform an exterminatus on the staff due to an outbreak. Something the real Big Boss decided to leave you to deal with, which unless you're a psychopath probably wouldn't sit well with you.
This, in turn, ideally solidifies Big Boss as a villain in the player's eyes.
From a design standpoint this makes sense to me because this is the first MGS game to tout an open-world design. Some of the biggest open world games often use a player avatar with no personality or name to allow the player to insert themselves into the game and immerse themselves in the world in an effort to enhance the exhilaration from the gameplay. The actual avatar creation portion of the game is meant for online, sure, but I'd be willing to bet this is also an attempt to imprint an initial personality upon the player character (I believe you get to see the face you created in the mirror for like a second or two before Quiet spoils the waking ceremony).
I mean, think about it? The typical player is probably going to be a MGS fan who has played as BB in the previous games so that player would know all about big boss's exploits and what he is capable of. They've controlled this character so they definitely have the ability. "The Medic"/soldier character is merely a vessel to summon the player into the game as themselves, but tasked with the order of carrying on Big Boss's will. To do that they obviously have to look and sound the part.
I'm sure I'll look at this in the morning and realize I wrote a big scrawl of crazy, but at least right now it makes sense to me!
First, what seems to irk or disappoint some is the idea that "The Medic", someone who seems like a nobody is the one to take BB's place.
But let's think on that for a second.
OK, for starters, he's one of the MB soldiers who have been around BB for quite some time. He's seen what BB can do, and he knows all about the tales and experiences of BB-- why he is a legend in the first place.
However... I do think we're not supposed to look deep at who "The Medic" is in this case. "The Medic" is for all intents and purposes someone with no discernible personality, and we barely even see his face unless you do some trickery with the files from GZ. In fact, I'll go as far as to bet that if the game doesn't explicitly SAY that it was specifically that medic in the helicopter crash on a tape or in conversation or something, then it could have been almost anyone from MB.
When you think about it, a lot of those guys, if you've played Peace Walker, are quite capable of handling themselves if you decide to go out on an OP with them and can play them well. This allows for the perfect premise to insert the player himself into the role of Big Boss unlike how it was done before.
In those previous games, you were role-playing AS Jack, as Naked Snake, as Vic Boss, as Big Boss. You controlled him and lead him to his victories, but you were not taking on the role yourself, you were only seeing it play out.
In THIS game, however, this has changed. It is my belief that in this game, THE PLAYER *IS* Big Boss, because the role has finally been thrust onto them by the ancillary characters integral to Big Boss's operations, as well as BB himself. The intended effect upon completing the game in this case is a great sense of PERSONAL betrayal upon learning that you are nothing but a phantom for the REAL Big Boss. He (and his close buddies) have played *YOU* in an effort to keep the real Big Boss alive and out of harm's way for the time being. You learn this after everything you have gone through, building up your Mother Base only to have to perform an exterminatus on the staff due to an outbreak. Something the real Big Boss decided to leave you to deal with, which unless you're a psychopath probably wouldn't sit well with you.
This, in turn, ideally solidifies Big Boss as a villain in the player's eyes.
From a design standpoint this makes sense to me because this is the first MGS game to tout an open-world design. Some of the biggest open world games often use a player avatar with no personality or name to allow the player to insert themselves into the game and immerse themselves in the world in an effort to enhance the exhilaration from the gameplay. The actual avatar creation portion of the game is meant for online, sure, but I'd be willing to bet this is also an attempt to imprint an initial personality upon the player character (I believe you get to see the face you created in the mirror for like a second or two before Quiet spoils the waking ceremony).
I mean, think about it? The typical player is probably going to be a MGS fan who has played as BB in the previous games so that player would know all about big boss's exploits and what he is capable of. They've controlled this character so they definitely have the ability. "The Medic"/soldier character is merely a vessel to summon the player into the game as themselves, but tasked with the order of carrying on Big Boss's will. To do that they obviously have to look and sound the part.
I'm sure I'll look at this in the morning and realize I wrote a big scrawl of crazy, but at least right now it makes sense to me!
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
To be fair to you, here is how it's presented in the game:
- Solidus thinks S3 is to train Raiden into becoming Solid Snake
then
- Ocelot reveals that NO, S3 is not JUST about Raiden becoming Solid Snake through training but rather the entire scenario at Big Shell was supposed to represent Shadow Moses. This was all to see if Raiden could clear the same scenario based off the same help and adversity as Snake. Olga and President Johnson knew as much as Ocelot. They carried out their parts even though they knew they were gonna die.
then
- The AIs reveal that Ocelot didn't have the full picture either. It's not JUST about recreating Shadow Moses, but applying that AI protocol to the entire populace.
MGS2 is full of "no it's not X but Y". It does it like 10 times lol. Very convoluted.
Self_Destructive
Member
It's hilarious to me that you've boiled this game down to BB has another clone who goes crazy cause BB is an asshole and nothing in this game advances BB's character.
That's FUNNY.
It's hilarious to me that you've boiled this game down to BB has another clone who goes crazy cause BB is an asshole and nothing in this game advances BB's character.
That's FUNNY.
ok
After hearing Keifer throughout the Hospital section, I feel like he actually works really well as BB, when you hear him yell things like "GET DOWN!" It sounds very Hayter/Snake-like but more subtle, any intense moment seems to sound great, but regular talking feels just a bit off to me for the most part.
I still feel like they should had Hayter voice him in GZ and then have Keifer in TPP, so then you'd have coma context, but oh well.
I still feel like they should had Hayter voice him in GZ and then have Keifer in TPP, so then you'd have coma context, but oh well.
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
Hello, fellow desert rat!
razzmahtazz
Member
Has there been any word on DLC, Expansion Packs, Modding? Not the typical Kojima stuff, but I would think Konami would be more into.
It's hilarious to me that you've boiled this game down to BB has another clone who goes crazy cause BB is an asshole and nothing in this game advances BB's character.
That's FUNNY.
It doesn't advance anything for Big Boss though. He saves his own life. Okay? Where is the breaking point? As far as we're led to believe, Big Boss was just straight chillin' and was never as bad as we thought he was, yet the entire game was marketed as his "missing link." In reality he does nothing. No blood on his hands at all, not even Venom Snake's.
Was he even at Outer Heaven? How could he have rescued Schneider and the others if he wasn't? They couldn't tell that he just grew a fucking hand and had no horn anymore? Did he just happen to shadow Solid Snake and also speak to him over the radio but not actually be the one to confront him but so then why does OG Big Boss try to jeopardize the mission if he's aiding Snake?
It's the worst writing I've seen in recent memory. Extremely contrived, contradictory and very apparently perfunctory. What is even the point? That anyone can be shaped into a legendary warrior? The themes of every previous Metal Gear Solid game was addressed directly: Genes, memes, scenes and peace. All talked about directly in the game.
MGSV's theme is meant to be "race" but we have some Saturday morning cartoon hi-jinks getting the attention instead. The Venom Snake doppleganger has no thematic purpose. The only thing people keep using as an excuse isn't even a thing in-universe. "Solid Snake Simulation" never existed. The project's goal was never about creating soldiers, and it most certainly wasn't about stitching someone together and then stitching them up to save someone's life.
But let's humor S3 for a moment: okay, so are we now saying that S3 (Solid Snake Simulation) started before Solid Snake was even a soldier? Supposing we are, then why is it Zero who starts it in this game but in MGS2 it's the AIs bright new faux-idea? Even though we're told that the AIs deviated from Zero's vision. Say that's true, then when exactly do the AIs deviate? Right after MGS2?
Suddenly the Cobra Unit needed a pseudo-science explanation for their abilities? An explanation that makes no sense at all when applied?
I mean it is an absolute testament that Kojima needed to contradict the entire series to weave this in at all. Was it worth it?
HOW DO BOTH VENOM SNAKE AND BIG BOSS KEEP GETTING THESE ARMIES EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE FOND OF BEING EXTERMINATED
God I hope this is all bullshit somehow.
robotoboy20
Banned
His ideolagey shifted at the end of peace walker
https://youtu.be/rjDAxXj9H8k
I think he became confused... and made his choice much like The Boss made hers. Yeah it's kind of weird in the context, but I don't think it was about "hiding behind a punching bag"
after the fall of MB during GZ and his betrayal - after hearing the things he had heard at XOF, and saving Chico, and Paz... he changed, or at least he took it to far. He ran into hiding to get Skullface off of his back, and survey the situation from afar, so that he could act accordingly. Zero and Big Boss still seem to be at odds - but it's kind of like a Magneto and Professor X kind of thing, they're still friends, just very oppositional ones.
At the end of Peace Walker he decided to live up to his Legend, and be the man everyone thought he was... when he realized that he was only a fiddle and he got played.
He used his charisma to his advantage - what he did was still scummy. He used the effect he had on his men to manipulate everyone but his closest allies. The Legend is a thing existing in and of itself. Much like the The Boss was a legend.
His soldiers are his pawns, and he used them like such. Even if he was in a coma for 9 years, that doesn't the medic was any less talented. The medic was obviously enamored by Big Boss, or he wouldn't have created his own "Outer Heaven" and attempted to take on the world in the way he thought Big Boss might.
I'm not saying it isn't silly or zany, but it makes sense to me. I mean during the events of MGS4 he's behind the curtain the entire time. Also who's to say this medic wasn't deemed incredibly talented by Big Boss... why else would he choose him to be his body double.
This character we play, is almost poetic in a sense. It gives you a personal reason to hate Big Boss... as if you were one of his own soldiers betrayed, and used as a tool to further his agenda. He already deemed Skullface far to intelligent, and too much a of a threat to attempt to face himself, so he played an ace in the hole strategy, and teamed up with his bitter rival to do so. Pulling the strings through Ocelot whom he knew could handle the situation due to his spying expertise. Tailoring him into the spitting image of Big Boss himself. Venom Snake outperforms though, and ends up surviving and even killing Skullface. This is when things become problematic, and it's likely why Quiet leaves, and attempts to kill Venom, due to him outliving his usefulness. I was kind of hoping you could have a boss fight with Big Boss himself - echoing MG1, but nah, they did it the other way around.
Of course this ends up pushing Venom far over the edge, and he goes on to try and attain his revenge against the man he thought of as an idol, and a Legend - attempting to destroy his legacy...
It keeps with the theme that the Legends people create can live as their own thing. I don't know.
It really depends on how they handle it in game, but it's very believably inserted into the Kojiverse.
Oh and Venom parallels with Skullface in a super ridiculous way... they're VERY similar.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Dude on the stream is now using Shareplay. And it can't be shareplayed because it's not out. :|
ColourRevolt
Member
I've been out of this thread for a while. Can someone please fucking tell me where all of this information is leaking from? Provide independently verified sources? Anyone?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Italian Guide translated by myself and several others /verified anonymous source that produced a picture that we've never seen.
robotoboy20
Banned
Language is the theme. Venom Snake parallels Skullface in very similar ways. They are both bitter people turned tools, manipulated into doing things for their "leaders" and they both grow resentment toward said leaders. Both had everything they had taken from them, Venom's identity and life was taken, and so was Skullface... it's why the new trailer shows them both on the same body. Venom is no better than Skullface... but then again - Big Boss and Zero are both assholes that treat their men as pawns.
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