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[tuxfool]

I think most people are disappointed in the fact that this game is not just another community funded game. It ultimately decides whether high-budget games are worth kickstarting. And from what we have seen so far, it is a fairly big mess from the developers' side.

It is amazing how people still have no notion of how messy game development is. Show me smooth development and I'll show you an unambitious and possibly boring game.

Not exactly something to brag about "if" scope issues are a problem.

What is there to brag about? It is a statement qualifying the size of the game and the manpower involved.

 

[Sijil]

This thing reminds me of the Ouya kickstarter, it's an obvious trainwreck waiting to happen, and yet some people refuse to see it.

Have you played it? Followed the daily and monthly reports? Because from what I've seen most people who to these conclusions have done neither and base their opinions on off hand reports and rumors.

Biggest problem with SC is the amount of transparency they have in the development process, some things should just stay hidden because too many people just jump to conclusions and make the wrong assumptions.

 

[Hylian7]

I don't follow SC personally (mainly because Elite Dangerous is what I want out of this kind of game, but I think there is still room for SC on the market), but I really don't think an Executive Producer leaving is as big of a deal as it sounds. I honestly have a hard time believing that the entire project at CIG is going to fall apart just because their Executive Producer left.

 

[diffusionx]

A single game which turned out to be awesome regardless is history now? Never mind the fact that he left Microsoft because they didn't allow him to make the game he wanted. Freelancer remains just one game while he also delivered on the entire Wing Commander Saga and Strike Commander.

He left after Microsoft bought the studio and indicated they had no desire to fund what was basically Star Citizen. The game was already running very late. Yes the end result was very cool but it was also after, as you indicate, Microsoft scaled the game back to get it out in a timely manner, without his direct involvement. I don't know what Star Citizen will turn out to be but the precedent is not so great.

 

[epmode]

Man, gaming blogs smell blood in the water with Star Citizen. I love how Destructoid is going on about RUMORS like the troubled FPS module. It's obviously not a rumor. The dev team admits that they're having serious problems.

I'm a backer and I'm pretty skeptical about the game's development style (as you'd see if you check the official thread) but this executive producer thing seems to be a non-issue.

 

[Lothars]

This thing reminds me of the Ouya kickstarter, it's an obvious trainwreck waiting to happen, and yet some people refuse to see it.

No it's not an obvious trainwreck. They have been more than open with the development process and I am looking forward to seeing the end result whenever that may be.

I imagine that you will be downplaying it when it is released.

 

[aliengmr]

i don't like that trend called early access gaming.

I would love to see ALL early access games fail

I don't like the trend of "Surprise!! You just purchased a piece of shit for $60!!" "Would you like some DLC?"

I hope the trend of early access and crowd funding continues, I don't want to rely on publishers only. They decided the space sim genre was dead in the first place.

 

[Sijil]

He left after Microsoft bought the studio and indicated they had no desire to fund what was basically Star Citizen. The game was already running very late. Yes the end result was very cool but it was also after, as you indicate, Microsoft scaled the game back to get it out in a timely manner, without his direct involvement. I don't know what Star Citizen will turn out to be but the precedent is not so great.

So Freelancer aside, the whole Wing Commander series, Privateer, Strike Commander are now rendered irrelevant? If you were going to judge him by his history at least make sure it's his entire history not just one game.

 

[exmachina64]

Have you played it? Followed the daily and monthly reports? Because from what I've seen most people who to these conclusions have done neither and base their opinions on off hand reports and rumors.

Biggest problem with SC is the amount of transparency they have in the development process, some things should just stay hidden because too many people just jump to conclusions and make the wrong assumptions.

This applies to game development in general.

Man, gaming blogs smell blood in the water with Star Citizen. I love how Destructoid is going on about RUMORS like the troubled FPS module. It's obviously not a rumor. The dev team admits that they're having serious problems.

I'm a backer and I'm pretty skeptical about the game's development style (as you'd see if you check the official thread) but this executive producer thing seems to be a non-issue.

People want it to fail - it's a big target.

 

[Sax Russel]

I don't follow SC personally (mainly because Elite Dangerous is what I want out of this kind of game, but I think there is still room for SC on the market), but I really don't think an Executive Producer leaving is as big of a deal as it sounds. I honestly have a hard time believing that the entire project at CIG is going to fall apart just because their Executive Producer left.

Yeah but you've got this rather vocal, mentally addled group of people that are just chomping at the bit to bathe in the failure of this kind of project so you've got to understand how much fun it is to prod them into action. I mean we've got a whole lot of them in just this thread after all. Like look at this winner:

This thing reminds me of the Ouya kickstarter, it's an obvious trainwreck waiting to happen, and yet some people refuse to see it.

 

[Hylian7]

Yeah but you've got this rather vocal, mentally addled group of people that are just chomping at the bit to bathe in the failure of this kind of project so you've got to understand how much fun it is to prod them into action. I mean we've got a whole lot of them in just this thread after all. Like look at this winner:

I'm not really seeing the comparisons to Ouya as we have already seen a lot of the working product as it's being developed. There's no "We're going into hiding and coming out in a year with a finished game!"

 

[Tempy]

Game Director changing mid-development is bad. Executive Producer? Not so much.

 

[Liabe Brave]

We have received a note from CIG that Global Head of Production Erin Roberts will now be taking over “a lot” of Alex’ duties on the project.

I thought Erin Roberts was studio director of Foundry 42. Has he moved from that to global oversight, or is he doing both?

Instead they are doing completely by the book standard cinematic game for about $40m and it takes them about as long as Star Citizen.

Assuming you're correct, wouldn't this be a very good reason to worry? Whatever their faults, Naughty Dog are not known as wasteful spenders. If they need $40 million to make a "standard" game, how is CIG going to make something with the scope of Star Citizen, involving six studios instead of one, with even longer development time, for only three times as much?

 

[Moon_frogger]

hmmmm ok so here's the thing. I Haven't been following this project as closely as some of you. BUT I don't think it takes hundreds of hours on the forums to conclude that this title has a lot going against it's odds of success. It's one of the most ambitious titles I've ever heard of, the budget is comparatively tiny and the guy who started it hasn't made a proper game in many moons. I really don't think I need a phd in 'star citizen development roadmap' to speculate that this project could quite easily crash and burn on a massive scale in a few different ways.
I love chris roberts. I love wing commander. But the guy hasn't made anything worthwhile in a very, very, very long time and what I've seen of star citizen after millions of dollars and years of development makes me glad I didn't back it and sad for those who did. I guess you can just call me an 'ignorant drive by shit poster' or whatever but come on. Do I really need to go on the star citizen forums everyday for 3 years to have an opinion on it's chances of succeeding?

 

[Xplatformer]

Maybe fired BECAUSE the FPS module got borked?

I vote this.

Not worried at all. Chris got this.

I don't follow SC personally (mainly because Elite Dangerous is what I want out of this kind of game, but I think there is still room for SC on the market), but I really don't think an Executive Producer leaving is as big of a deal as it sounds. I honestly have a hard time believing that the entire project at CIG is going to fall apart just because their Executive Producer left.

And that's why I'm willing to give Chris Roberts at least 5 years to release a beta of the project he started in 2012. I want more than Elite Dangerous. Destiny has proven to me that if Star Citizen ain't it I'm going to be waiting a lot longer than 2017 to see that type of game from someone else.

I can wait for now. I don't want Elite Dangerous. I wouldn't spend $150 to play it.

 

[Xplatformer]

This is going to fail, then maybe if people are lucky a very rushed limited feature game will be released.

Prime example of feature creep. They needed to define their scope way earlier on instead of promising the world and spending their time making ships. I didn't pledge but you could tell pretty early on that a project of this scale was going to be impossible for this studio.

And my opinion is the opposite of yours. Go figure.

 

[tuxfool]

Do I really need to go on the star citizen forums everyday for 3 years to have an opinion on it's chances of succeeding?

Nope. Just maybe browse the website, read the kinds of things they put out, watch a couple of their videos on YT. That is all you sort of need to get a sense of what they are doing. Most people spouting nonsense are doing just that because they presume to know a project should be without knowing what they should be critical about.

The developers put out so much information, both good and bad that unfortunately there are those that cannot maintain any perspective. It is easy to see why game developers are often cagey about the things they do judging by the behaviors of some individuals.

 

[Krejlooc]

Maybe fired BECAUSE the FPS module got borked?

It's like we learned nothing from the naughty dog fiasco...

 

[epmode]

Do I really need to go on the star citizen forums everyday for 3 years to have an opinion on it's chances of succeeding?

No but you should keep a few things in mind:

*Games with the scale of Star Citizen typically take over three years to develop. Usually somewhere around five.

*Unlike Ubisoft, EA or some other established company with a billion employees that can be moved around relatively easily, CIG had to build the company from ~20 to ~200 people once the crowdfunding campaign ended. Takes a long time.

*Typically, we only get a glimpse at AAA games when they're a year away from completion. Also, development problems are almost entirely hidden from the public with a traditional publisher model. And EVERY game has problems during development.

I'm concerned about Star Citizen's insistence of polishing the hell out of every public-facing update since it leads to a lot of wasted work but I'm thinking it might be a necessary evil if they want to keep their funding rate. Lots of people just don't understand how tricky game development can be.

 

[Xplatformer]

I thought Erin Roberts was studio director of Foundry 42. Has he moved from that to global oversight, or is he doing both?


Assuming you're correct, wouldn't this be a very good reason to worry? Whatever their faults, Naughty Dog are not known as wasteful spenders. If they need $40 million to make a "standard" game, how is CIG going to make something with the scope of Star Citizen, involving six studios instead of one, with even longer development time, for only three times as much?

There were private investors outside of the crowd funded dollars years ago. Is the crowd funding the only source of game develop revenue? Seems like now, if Chris needed outside investors he'd get them easily. I think $$$ would be the least of their worries.

 

[epmode]

There were private investors outside of the crowd funded dollars years ago. Is the crowd funding the only source of game develop revenue?

Yes. The outside investment was unnecessary when CIG realized that they could keep the money rolling in.

The only other money came from CIG themselves. They funded the prototype used to make this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlIWJlz6-Eg

 

[CyberPunked]

Well here's your closure: http://www.pcinvasion.com/star-citizen-executive-producer-alex-mayberry-departure-confirmed.
From the forums:

Rumor has it, that there has been a serious health issue in his family and he wants to reroute his energies to tackle this issue. A humble approach, but what does that mean for Star Citizen?

 

[Arrage]

The bigger the project, the bigger the mess is going to be. People just aren't used to seeing the mess first hand. People see a game a bit before it goes on sale, and if they hear anything about it at all before then, it's due to NDAs being broken. Star Citizen is the first big budget (AAA level) game where everything has been open from the get go. It's also the most ambitious of all the crowdfunded games by a large margin. Yeah, shit is going to happen.

Is there another instance of a project being split into what? 5 Module which are further split into chapters and modes?

Shit doesn't happen. What happens is people overestimating their abilities and not delivering. Difference is that most AAA games are less ambitious and publishers can get away with several extra months of crunch.

It is way too ambitious to deliver. Everybody got on the ultimate space flight simulator hype, perhaps some of that living universe too. First person competitive deathmatch? Three chapter campaign?

It is amazing how people still have no notion of how messy game development is. Show me smooth development and I'll show you an unambitious and possibly boring game.

Witcher III is a good example of the game that had 7 months delay, but delivered in the end.

I am not saying that game development should be smooth: plenty of games get delayed 6-12 months. My problem is that they are making at least three games and have a living universe module in pre-production. It is fine if 350 people can do that, but they obviously need way more time for every module than they have anticipated. SC campaign is already split into three chapters that will probably conclude in late 2017 at best. The biggest component (Full Sized Living Universe) is still in the planning, it will take them years to build it and probably more to make sure that it works. Now we seeing the person who is in charge of operations running left the project. Perhaps, just perhaps, CIP can snipe a highly skilled producer to improve the situation.

 

[exmachina64]

Well here's your closure: http://www.pcinvasion.com/star-citizen-executive-producer-alex-mayberry-departure-confirmed.
From the forums:

Regardless of its veracity, people will believe that he left because of troubled development.

 

[Liabe Brave]

There were private investors outside of the crowd funded dollars years ago. Is the crowd funding the only source of game develop revenue? Seems like now, if Chris needed outside investors he'd get them easily. I think $$$ would be the least of their worries.

One of the funding level goals was to switch entirely to crowdfunding, with no outside capital. I believe it was passed in October of last year. Also, note that Star Citizen has not yet raised triple KKRT00's guess at Uncharted 4's budget, only double. I went higher to cover the money they'll continue to raise. (At the current rate, it will take them about a year to get to that $120m level.)

Given the ambit of the game design, money should definitely be a worry for the producers. They're building an MMO, essentially, and those seem to run into nine digits very easily. That's not to say they can't do it...but I think it's important not to downplay the sheer scale of what CIG is embarked upon. It's the promise of that epic scope which excites people, but scope directly costs dollars.

 

[Almighty]

People read too much into this stuff. People come and go all the time and it doesn't always mean something bad is going on behind the scenes.

Of course with that said Star Citizen is still the game that I think is going to lead to massive disappointment when it is released. From what little I have seen the game has become the poster child of feature creep and I will be amazed if they can pull it off in the end.

 

[tuxfool]

Now we seeing the person who is in charge of operations running left the project. Perhaps, just perhaps, CIP can snipe a highly skilled producer to improve the situation.

What is stopping them from hiring somebody else? The person in the OP was only hired last year and it took them time to ramp up production as they had to build all the studios from scratch. It is something that they admitted that they should have done more quickly.

Ultimately, if they have the funds then I don't see a problem with delays (within reason).

 

[Zalusithix]

Shit doesn't happen. What happens is people overestimating their abilities and not delivering. Difference is that most AAA games are less ambitious and publishers can get away with several extra months of crunch.

No, shit does indeed happen. People's lives change during a long project. Somebody there at the beginning wont necessarily be there at the end. Unforeseen technical and logistical issues rear their heads. Entire chunks might be made just to be thrown away due to the iterative process. All the planning in the world wont stop that. And, frankly, if you develop your game based on a set schedule from the beginning, you're doing something very very wrong. Things will change. Things often need to change.

As for the rest, I don't give a shit personally if there's been any previous games that have taken the approach that SC has. No game has been funded like SC has. No other game has had the scope that SC has. To expect it to behave the same as the traditional conservative publisher model is pointless. It's a ridiculously ambitious game, and yes, it might fail. Any game runs that risk. Games get canned in mid development all the time. The difference is if SC succeeds, it'll be something unlike any other game out there. For myself any many other people who have backed the game, that opportunity is worth the risk.

 

[Liabe Brave]

No other game has had the scope that SC has. ...The difference is if SC succeeds, it'll be something unlike any other game out there.

Please forgive my ignorance, but it seems to me that EVE Online/Dust 514 encompasses the vast majority of the scope to which Star Citizen aspires (though with greater disconnect between the "modules"). The only major design element missing is a highly-engineered single-player campaign, but that's the most conservative and old-fashioned part of Star Citizen.

Of course, CIG are aiming for a much higher level of polish, and a seamless transition through various gameplay types. But frankly, I wouldn't call the production quality and design scope of Star Citizen unprecedented in any real way. Rather, to me it's the collaborative and transparent development process that's truly unusual and interesting.

 

[tuxfool]

Please forgive my ignorance, but it seems to me that EVE Online/Dust 514 encompasses the vast majority of the scope to which Star Citizen aspires (though with greater disconnect between the "modules"). The only major design element missing is a highly-engineered single-player campaign, but that's the most conservative and old-fashioned part of Star Citizen.

Eve online is an economy sim set in space. Their (admitedly glorious) wars are generally not considered a real time fight (due to things like time dilation), Star Citizen is aiming to simply be a less expansive (universe size wise) but more dense Elite. Dust was a large arena battle mode where as this is more closely emulating Arma like combat in small arenas.

The whole world is supposed to be first person-like, but with space vehicles. Both Elite:dangerous and Star Citizen are ultimately aiming at similar things in terms of Persistent Universe, but are taking different paths to get there.

 

[Danthrax]

SC campaign is already split into three chapters that will probably conclude in late 2017 at best.

No it hasn't

The campaign that's always been planned is now being called Episode 1

The "mission disk" that's always been planned is now being called Episode 2 (it had been called "Behind Enemy Lines")

And apparently they now are planning to do a second "mission disk" expansion that they're calling Episode 3

 

[Liabe Brave]

Eve online is an economy sim set in space. Their (admitedly glorious) wars are generally not considered a real time fight (due to things like time dilation), Star Citizen is aiming to simply be a less expansive (universe size wise) but more dense Elite. Dust was a large arena battle mode where as this is more closely emulating Arma like combat in small arenas.

The whole world is supposed to be first person-like, but with space vehicles. Both Elite:dangerous and Star Citizen are ultimately aiming at similar things in terms of Persistent Universe, but are taking different paths to get there.

Oh sure, I'm aware that the details are different, and that one pillar of Star Citizen's pitch is that it will be a more immersive, polished version of the galactic-scale game. But the fact that you can name multiple other titles which cover the same scope--indeed, sometimes even larger scope--was my point. Scale may be a selling point of Star Citizen, but its size and even production value isn't unprecedented. The business model is far more novel and worthy of attention, I think.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I'm concerned about Star Citizen's insistence of polishing the hell out of every public-facing update since it leads to a lot of wasted work but I'm thinking it might be a necessary evil if they want to keep their funding rate. Lots of people just don't understand how tricky game development can be."


The general reaction from those not following Star Citizen's development is the perfect example for why game development remains a black box to the public, only showing a few (usually the same) vertical slice demos at press events until release.

 

[Deadstar]

This thing reminds me of the Ouya kickstarter, it's an obvious trainwreck waiting to happen, and yet some people refuse to see it.

Haven't played the training module have you? It's very, very fun. Star Citizen is moving along nicely.

 

[JCtheMC]

The general reaction from those not following Star Citizen's development is the perfect example for why game development remains a black box to the public, only showing a few (usually the same) vertical slice demos at press events until release.

The same could be said for a number of (bigger) early access games. For some reason it really gets on my nerves because in many cases the devs are quite open and forthcoming about the challenges of development, but it's like people on the internet aren't very adept at reading.

 

[Dash Kappei]

No, shit does indeed happen. People's lives change during a long project. Somebody there at the beginning wont necessarily be there at the end. Unforeseen technical and logistical issues rear their heads. Entire chunks might be made just to be thrown away due to the iterative process. All the planning in the world wont stop that. And, frankly, if you develop your game based on a set schedule from the beginning, you're doing something very very wrong. Things will change. Things often need to change.

As for the rest, I don't give a shit personally if there's been any previous games that have taken the approach that SC has. No game has been funded like SC has. No other game has had the scope that SC has. To expect it to behave the same as the traditional conservative publisher model is pointless. It's a ridiculously ambitious game, and yes, it might fail. Any game runs that risk. Games get canned in mid development all the time. The difference is if SC succeeds, it'll be something unlike any other game out there. For myself any many other people who have backed the game, that opportunity is worth the risk.

One and done.
I didn't back the game btw, I'm not personally invested in it. But it's saddening to see how many zero-knowledge drive-by shitposters there are on an enthusiasts' forum like GAF and how conservative and closed minded people are for a medium that's supposed to be all about creativity and driving your imagination. This is a project like nothing else before it, it's exciting and it might be a milestone for videogames as a whole. Unambitious AAA game #123 often run into delays and troubled development, hell basically all games development is troubled to an extent: it's gamedev and if you fail to understand that then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Taruranto]

No it's not an obvious trainwreck. They have been more than open with the development process and I am looking forward to seeing the end result whenever that may be.

I imagine that you will be downplaying it when it is released.

No, I don't play P2W games.

 

[SnowTeeth]

No, I don't play P2W games.

hahahha obvious troll is FAR too obvious.

 

[CryptiK]

The games scope was way way too out there IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if people started abandoning ship.

 

[texhnolyze]

Doesn't change my stance for this game.
I'll play it when it's ready.

 

[Farmboy]

So Freelancer aside, the whole Wing Commander series, Privateer, Strike Commander are now rendered irrelevant? If you were going to judge him by his history at least make sure it's his entire history not just one game.

I love the Wing Commander series. Put hundreds of hours into them. Roberts did a great job there, no doubt.

But that was two decades ago. Game development has changed almost unrecognizably. There's absolutely no indication that Roberts has been able to keep up. In fact, everything he's done since the late nineties indicates that he has not.

Roberts' biggest, actually finished project in terms of people involved? Probably the Wing Commander movie.

 

[Stimpack]

I wouldn't look too deep into this. Though I don't think anyone would be surprised if Star Citizen ends up crumbling. Not that I would ever want that to happen, I'm as excited and hopeful as anyone about it, but it still wouldn't shock me.

 

[Taruranto]

hahahha obvious troll is FAR too obvious.

What? You pay moneys to get in-game ships and advantages. It's the very definition of P2W.

 

[Nessus]

Supported them on Kickstarter for just the game and the one base ship with lifetime insurance.

That was enough for me.

I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the extras they've given me *after* I backed them. Mostly cosmetic stuff for my ship, etc. but still pretty cool. In fact I just logged in and they've added another thing (a model ship) that wasn't there last time I checked.

Not everyone who backed the game is spending $800 on pretend ships. Some people just wanted a good space combat sim from someone who has a long history with the genre (even if I was more in the TIE Fighter camp than the Wing Commander camp back in the day).

If they manage to pull off seamless FPS stuff as well even better.

If I end up being able to do co-op missions and exploration with friends that'd be amazing.

But if I just end up with a single player campaign that's all I really wanted in the first place.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Hey remember Chris Roberts last game project?

And how he fucked it up so badly he had to be bailed out by Microsoft after the project ran more than 50% over time.

Who could have possibly forseen that on a much larger project he would screw it up even more badly?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

i don't like that trend called early access gaming.

I would love to see ALL early access games fail

The first sentence is reasonable. The second makes you sound like an irredeemable idiot.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Haven't played the training module have you? It's very, very fun. Star Citizen is moving along nicely.

I have, and it's buggy garbage. This is the game at a really small scale, LOL at thinking they'll be able to scale this up when they can't get a small scale arena shooter working in 3 years.

 

[Sijil]

Hey remember Chris Roberts last game project?

And how he fucked it up so badly he had to be bailed out by Microsoft after the project ran more than 50% over time.

Who could have possibly forseen that on a much larger project he would screw it up even more badly?

Ok, show where the project is screwed then. An executive producer leaving due to family issues is hardly one, but hey all the SC haters need a straw to latch onto I guess...

I have, and it's buggy garbage. This is the game at a really small scale, LOL at thinking they'll be able to scale this up when they can't get a small scale arena shooter working in 3 years.

Hasn't been that buggy since the las few iterations, only required patching when new ships are introduced which makes me doubt your statement, or at least you haven't played it recently.

What? You pay moneys to get in-game ships and advantages. It's the very definition of P2W.

What are these advatanges? Please name them. And all the ships can be bought in game with the in game currency and your starter ship can take on any other ship. There's no payment option that grants unskilled players an advantage.

 

[HowZatOZ]

Illfonic, the guys behind the FPS modul are working on an MMORPG called Revival. He means that.

https://www.revivalgame.com/

Completely off topic but that sounds like an awesome game in concept but I feel it won't deliver even half of what it is pledging. Hell just the real estate concept is a tad weird.

Back on topic, I doubt this will do anything to the project, it's been running along quite well and I don't see why a change of producer would do anything major.

 

[mclem]

This thing reminds me of the Ouya kickstarter, it's an obvious trainwreck waiting to happen, and yet some people refuse to see it.

The thing is, the Ouya is actually a finished product; it fundamentally did ship what it claimed, even if it didn't manage the hopes and dreams they used to sell the concept.

The doubts around this aren't really the same; the question is whether they can achieve what they promised. And, to be fair, I think it's too early to state categorically one way or the other on that. So I am, as I said, patient but mildly uncomfortable. And for now, that's fine.