Support NeoGAF

[hobblygobbly]

We don't know the details but I can't help feel they're doing too much at once for an initial release. For example I think the FPS module should've been post-release while resources are focused on delivering the space experience first and foremost for initial release. Basic first person functionality would exist as the base line for moving around the spaceship and extended further on for the FPS portion of the game.

As a programmer myself we have found ourselves in projects where we tackled on features that we really didn't need to do at that point and it had negative impacts. We stopped doing that and instead basic implementation/planning of a planned future feature early on, but not dedicated full implementation when it's not needed for a public release software cycle.

FPS module is just one of those things that is not a core component of a space game for initial release, doesn't make sense why there's such a hard on for it, I've always been afraid of this game losing focus on what the game should be about first and foremost, spaceships. When there's not even a clear goal/objective for initial release to be focused on spaceships it just reinforces the opinion many have of feature creep and drastic change of vision.

Everyone who wants the space game it initially wanted to be be wants that multi-crewed walkable and flyable ship within a dynamic world doing missions and a dynamic economy yet we see very little of that. Why are resources being spent on a huge FPS module now? Shouldn't that be going towards the main goal of initial release right now instead? Yes they are also working on that obviously, but it just doesn't make sense why you would spend resources on the FPS module right now that isn't even part of the core experience and bringing in so many issues? It doesn't make sense to me as an avid fan of space games.

 

[Dictator93]

Everyone who wants the space game it initially wanted to be be wants that multi-crewed walkable and flyable ship within a dynamic world doing missions and a dynamic economy yet we see very little of that. Why are resources being spent on a huge FPS module now? Shouldn't that be going towards the main goal of initial release right now instead? Yes they are also working on that obviously, but it just doesn't make sense why you would spend resources on the FPS module right now that isn't even part of the core experience and bringing in so many issues? It doesn't make sense to me as an avid fan of space games.

Something like less than 20% of the companies employees are dedicated to working on FPS. The game company is massive.

 

[tuxfool]

I can only judge what I see, but right now this game tries to do too much; space combat/exploring, first person shooter, space trading, coop multiplayer. This game was pitched like the Peter Molyneux's version of MMO's but what we have so far does not inspire any confidence, as well as the outlook of some of their modules.

I look at something like Shenmue Kickstarter and everything is clear. Shenmue is a third person action/adventure game, 2 mil got it off the ground, 4 mil will enlargen it's scope, so will 10 mil, and yet, what do we know? all these "would be" milestones are fairly detailed for all to see. Persons pledging know exactly what they will be getting, the physical disc is now an option too. SC is definitely not as organized as Shenmue and it's been in development for much longer. This is people's money, it's not a good outlook, important persons leaving the project mid-development is also not a sign of confidence either. SC has been under fire of late and I think it's justified, usually where there is smoke there's fire.

Have you bothered to read monthly reports? Youtube videos on their channel? milestones and goals?

 

[CyberPunked]

I think people are looking into this too much. It's like when Naughtydog was loosing staff members on a weekly basis a while back, and it turned out to be nothing.

That being said, morale is at an all time low with the SC community.

 

[Tommyhawk]

Something like less than 20% of the companies employees are dedicated to working on FPS. The game company is massive.

Yep, 15% not 20 but yeah this won't affect the other modules too much:

Star Citizen’s development is distributed across several different modules or sub-projects, with development happening on all of them simultaneously. By the numbers, only 15% of the team has been working on Star Marine; it’s just been the major focus because it was the next public release. This means that development of other areas, such as Squadron 42, multicrew and the persistent universe, have continued while issues with FPS have stalled development there (though even in that case, development continues in other areas: while network engineers battle back end code, weapons artists and level designers continue to work towards future FPS milestones).

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14803-Letter-From-The-Chairman

 

[Menome]

When will Neil Druckmann stop this reign of terror?

 

[Effect]

Prime example of feature creep.

The mere suggestion of this at the official forums will paint a target on you. This was always my concern and it was something very obvious that was taking placed regardless of the denials.

 

[Tortfeasor]

FYI, having worked as a producer for years, an "executive" producer often has little to no creative control on a project, so their leaving wouldn't typically mean anything. An executive producer typically just manages groups of producers, each with their own projects. If the actual producer left it could possibly be a bigger deal.

 

[Aegus]

People leave projects all the time. In every industry.

I'd be concerned if Roberts left.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

Yeah, see, it's really not like that. Of course those invested in the game want it to succeed, but at least here on GAF, SC backers have been pretty cricital of the game's development in the past. It's just that they are immensly more informed about what's going on with the game, how things are progressing, what are the goals, and so on ... while the other group generally really has no fucking idea what is going on and is prone to ignorant drive-by comments. Just because the ITK people are trying their best to correct said ignorance doesn't mean they aren't capable of being critical.

I think there are multiple camps of blind followers, critical followers, etc... Humans in general are a diverse group. But along side all those people with different perspectives on the project based on information they have, there are also people who do not read at all about the game and nevertheless comment on it in a negative fashion. If anyone says there is a lack of direction or milestones, they just aren't reading enough of the MASSIVE amount of information CIG hands out to the public.

Well I am glad to hear that backers have been constructively critical, I think setting milestones and missing them would make anyone even a little uncomfortable if it happened more than a few times.I clearly haven't been following enough myself which is why I've held back on useless drive by comments, aside from the occasional, "ooh ahh" when they've released new gameplay footage.

 

[jakonovski]

Looking at how much money selling non-existent ships brings in, they have a perverse incentive to not finish anything. Just sell promises until the money tap dries out.

 

[Renekton]

People leave projects all the time. In every industry.

For a project-based industry, it is ideally after deliverables/subprojects are completed else it's a gap in the CV.

 

[tuxfool]

Well I am glad to hear that backers have been constructively critical, I think setting milestones and missing them would make anyone even a little uncomfortable if it happened more than a few times.I clearly haven't been following enough myself which is why I've held back on useless drive by comments, aside from the occasional, "ooh ahh" when they've released new gameplay footage.

Frankly that probably the best way to go about it. I commonly find that the worst posts are from people that hear things second or even third hand, and then proceed to labast the project based on useless or incomplete information.

It would be nice if more people that were critical would even bother to read what is on the star citizen website.

Looking at how much money selling non-existent ships brings in, they have a perverse incentive to not finish anything. Just sell promises until the money tap dries out.

This could be the case were it not for the fact that the ships that are released have mostly been projected at the beginning of the project or in earlier stretch goals.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

I can only judge what I see, but right now this game tries to do too much; space combat/exploring, first person shooter, space trading, coop multiplayer. This game was pitched like the Peter Molyneux's version of MMO's but what we have so far does not inspire any confidence, as well as the outlook of some of their modules.

I look at something like Shenmue Kickstarter and everything is clear. Shenmue is a third person action/adventure game, 2 mil got it off the ground, 4 mil will enlargen it's scope, so will 10 mil, and yet, what do we know? all these "would be" milestones are fairly detailed for all to see. Persons pledging know exactly what they will be getting, the physical disc is now an option too. SC is definitely not as organized as Shenmue and it's been in development for much longer. This is people's money, it's not a good outlook, important persons leaving the project mid-development is also not a sign of confidence either. SC has been under fire of late and I think it's justified, usually where there is smoke there's fire.

I can say I'm more hyped for Shenmue 3, but honestly, at this point Star Citizen has a much more solid and detailed plan of attack. The Kickstarter did as well. There's a TON of information out there for this. The problem may be biting off more than one can chew. People mostly understand the risks of the model going in, especially for this game where a lot of funding is from selling ships and what not.

 

[thelastword]

Why are you writing in absolutes regard the game's projected vision but are not informing yourself about said vision? Everything you need to know about the game can be found on their website or is updated daily through various communication channels. The entire game's scope has been documented and presented throughout the project's existence. Go to the funding portion of the website, or the part that tells you about game mechanics (death of a spaceman for example).

You can know exactly what you are getting by backing just by reading. In fact, this is probably the most open project in the history of all of gaming (especially one of this scope). When you back you are presented with what you are getting in a bulleted list even: a singleplayer game that is like wing commander, access to a persistent universe sim which comes online later, and then arena styled FPS and space ship shooting for pick up matches.

I never said the guys at CIG are not making progress on their game month in month out. I spoke of their end goal, like what do we know of the game's release date, at least the first module? Tbh you're not telling me anything I don't know about the game and you're a fan of it, someone mentioned that a module is being released sometime in 2016 but even then he's vague about it. I just commented that they're clearly missing their milestones so far and things seems to be too disorganized. The fact that a module was just recently delayed and people are leaving does not inspire confidence, the reasons reported by polygon, IGN et. al are that's it's related to technical and gameplay issues.

This is exactly what I thought as per above, as I've already highlighted many technical issues I have with this game in other threads, the graphics are widely inconsistent and drab looking and the animation system is probably the worse I've seen of a big budget game in a while. I also don't think the technical and gameplay issues of the fps module stands in isolation, let's not try to kid ourselves. I have watched many videos of what they have so far, what's playable and nothing looks inspiring from a gameplay perspective. I'm thinking they should have clear goals, like; the main module/platform will be released in 2016, perhaps then, all hands should be on deck to speed up the process and then in 2017 the fps module should be released and in 2018 another. These guys are clearly having development issues, you must not blind yourself to the fact because you are a fan, people leaving, technical issues coupled with a disjointed development style means this game may very well be in limbo for a long time.

If it were just a publishers money, then it would be their headache, but when it's crowdfunded and heavily so, it means that the lash-back will be more pronounced, especially when people are seeing signs of un-organized weakness and persons bailing. Clearly you realize that this game would come under heavy scrutiny as a result. Some of this game's technical deficiencies (animation as one) puzzles me, looking at it's big budget. Also, what's up with CIG charging $400.00 for a space ship in a crowd funded game?

The Genesis Starliner is described as a "next-generation passenger ship" built using the "highest quality parts." For $400, you can experience space travel "as it was meant to be,"

Are you serious? a virtual craft is pitched like this in the most successful crowdfunded game in which there is some development trouble. I don't like the look of this at all.

It's not like the modules are separate, sealed-off entities. All studios have contributed heavily to every single one of them. Well, Arena Commander so far, but it's the exact same story with Star Marine, social module, etc. The tech that gets developed by any one studio is then shared and refined across all the others, and it really couldn't be any other way, given the nature of the beast.

If you can't wait to pass judgement on Star Citizen, at least wait for Squadron 42, Star Citizen's story-driven single player (with co-op) campaign due sometime in 2016, which will be CIG's first "commercial" release.

So Squadron 42 is the first main release, but you're not sure if it's hitting 2016. That's the problem right there, with a major module being delayed due to technical and gameplay problems, one can infer the lack of a solid release date for other modules as well.

Have you bothered to read monthly reports? Youtube videos on their channel? milestones and goals?

I have dabbled, but I'm mostly interested in gameplay videos in any case. My point is that they are biting more than they can chew, so that can affect milestones and goals, which is clearly happening here. They have the money, but that can be mismanaged too if you can't consolidate all your modules with aplomb.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

So Squadron 42 is the first main release, but you're not sure if it's hitting 2016. That's the problem right there, with a major module being delayed due to technical and gameplay problems, one can infer the lack of a solid release date.

The problem is they promised the first 'episode' of Squadron 42 in "late 2015" which is supposed to offer 20 hours of gameplay which is now possibly slipping till mid 2016.

The sad thing is that people who paid a high enough tier to buy the game after the $6m mark wont even get episode 2 or 3 for free. You are looking late 2016 or even 2017 for all 3 episodes which are going to be near full priced games.

They have consistently proven they cannot hit targets they themselves have set, this project is massively bloated and I'm just waiting for the bubble to pop.

 

[jakonovski]

This could be the case were it not for the fact that the ships that are released have mostly been projected at the beginning of the project or in earlier stretch goals.

I don't see how this prevents them from just keeping on promising new ships for exorbitant prices.

 

[tuxfool]

So Squadron 42 is the first main release, but you're not sure if it's hitting 2016. That's the problem right there, with a major module being delayed due to technical and gameplay problems, one can infer the lack of a solid release date for other modules as well.

I have dabbled, but I'm mostly interested in gameplay videos in any case. My point is that they are biting more than they can chew, so that can affect milestones and goals, which is clearly happening here. They have the money, but that can be mismanaged too if you can't consolidate all your modules with aplomb.

A lot of games get delayed. However because all of the problems and delays are public in this project you expect there to be aggravation

 

[kutthoat5150]

Just give me a good sp campaign and I would get my moneys worth, a halfway decent mp component from what they promised is just icing on the cake for me

Also, just remembered how they initially planned to release modules around 4 months apart after Arena Commander. That was over a year ago when that launched. I'm almost certain the first 1.5 years of development was wasted as they scaled up and redesigned almost every asset.

 

[wetflame]

Has there been as much of a backlash against this project as there was with Broken Age?

 

[MNC]

Well, Doug Lombardi did forget to update his for a while I think, which made people think he left. This was around the layoffs.

Linkedin has the option to set end date as "current", meaning it would auto update/say " current" or "now" as end date.

 

[fanboi]

For a project-based industry, it is ideally after deliverables/subprojects are completed else it's a gap in the CV.

Ehem, or he went to Another Company? Ergo, no GAP since the only GAPs they are looking for are time, not if a project have finished or not.

 

[tuxfool]

I don't see how this prevents them from just keeping on promising new ships for exorbitant prices.

Deadlines for milestones. Lack of ships, as even now they're no longer putting out mainstream ships that could be seen as massive profit drivers.

 

[Obliterator]

I get the vibe this thing is gonna be a very expensive cluster fuck

 

[Dictator93]

I never said the guys at CIG are not making progress on their game month in month out. I spoke of their end goal, like what do we know of the game's release date, at least the first module? Tbh you're not telling me anything I don't know about the game and you're a fan of it, someone mentioned that a module is being released sometime in 2016 but even then he's vague about it. I just commented that they're clearly missing their milestones so far and things seems to be too disorganized. The fact that a module was just recently delayed and people are leaving does not inspire confidence, the reasons reported by polygon, IGN et. al are that's it's related to technical and gameplay issues.

"Clearly missing milestones" - they are hitting them just at a different rate at different times. They are not missing them and falling irrevocably behind or anything. Likewise, having delays in production is extremely common in large projects and usually the fans never learn of these things. Just since this game has a fully open development with people being able to know everything means that it in general is scrutinized and everyone puts on their "worry hats".

This is exactly what I thought as per above, as I've already highlighted many technical issues I have with this game in other threads, the graphics are widely inconsistent and drab looking and the animation system is probably the worse I've seen of a big budget game in a while. I also don't think the technical and gameplay issues of the fps module stands in isolation, let's not try to kid ourselves. I have watched many videos of what they have so far, what's playable and nothing looks inspiring from a gameplay perspective.

If you cannot recognise what this game is even doing graphically in its pre-alpha state then it is hard to talk to you. "animation system worst you have seen" I can only guffaw at such a statement. Beyond the fact that the game has no final animations in it AT ALL, even those ones in the game currently are extremely similar to the ones you see in most games. Fuck, in battlefield there aren't even animations when you enter vehicles for Christ sake. And that game has its animations praised all the time. Why not inform yourself about what the game's animation system will be post intergration? For example, this video shows how the animations carry weight and shift... with a 1:1 between 3rd and 1st person. How does that look "the worst?". Only a handful of games even do these things, and especially not FPS games.
Surely you have seen place holder animations and assets before? Oh wait, most AAA games never show that stuff.

I'm thinking they should have clear goals, like; the main module/platform will be released in 2016, perhaps then, all hands should be on deck to speed up the process and then in 2017 the fps module should be released and in 2018 another. These guys are clearly having development issues, you must not blind yourself to the fact because you are a fan, people leaving, technical issues coupled with a disjointed development style means this game may very well be in limbo for a long time.

They have clear goals, you just have not informed yourself about them. You can read what dev issues they are having with the FPS right now every week as they update their website about it. But clearly you will not do that. It isn't technical issues, they are writing up the net code backend primarily which is completely new and different from the cryengine one.

If it were just a publishers money, then it would be their headache, but when it's crowdfunded and heavily so, it means that the lash-back will be more pronounced, especially when people are seeing signs of un-organized weakness and persons bailing. Clearly you realize that this game would come under heavy scrutiny as a result. Some of this game's technical deficiencies (animation as one) puzzles me, looking at it's big budget. Also, what's up with CIG charging $400.00 for a space ship in a crowd funded game? Are you serious? a virtual craft is pitched like this in the most successful crowdfunded game in which there is some development trouble. I don't like the look of this at all.

I am happy for anyone to scrutinize the project's funding methods. That is a good and healthy view, but clearly you know nothing about project development: people leaving means nothing when there are hundreds of employees and new people joining and leaving under contract all the time. Likewise you bring up animation again, even though you have not informed yourself about the animation system or as to the animation you have seen. Even the facial aniamtion shared in threads is apparently from around january this year, they aren't showing the final stuff due to spoilers.

So Squadron 42 is the first main release, but you're not sure if it's hitting 2016. That's the problem right there, with a major module being delayed due to technical and gameplay problems, one can infer the lack of a solid release date for other modules as well.

Squadron 42 will release in 2016.

I have dabbled, but I'm mostly interested in gameplay videos in any case. My point is that they are biting more than they can chew, so that can affect milestones and goals, which is clearly happening here. They have the money, but that can be mismanaged too if you can't consolidate all your modules with aplomb.

If you were to read and inform yourself about the game and how it breaks down its builds and and engine branches you would know that a delay in one module does not delay the others in any significant way. But you haven't informed yourself at all. Instead you write long paragraphs that require long responses to stem ignorance.

 

[tuxfool]

I am happy for anyone to scrutinize the project's funding methods. That is a good and healthy view, but clearly you know nothing about project development: people leaving means nothing when there are hundreds of employees and new people joining and leaving under contract all the time.

By this metric UC4 would be doomed since the project lost Amy Hennig or Corrine Yu.

 

[doomquake]

Battlecruiser 3000 AD all over again

 

[KKRT00]

Every freaking SC thread has those bunch uninformed driveby-ers who dont even have a little decency to read up few bigger interviews about this game. Its so annoying!

And the guy dismissing Chris Roberts - wow.

Also posting Shenmue kickstarter as an example hahaha, its probably the worse kickstarter i've ever seen. It basically has 5 paragraphs with rephrased 'please give us money or Shenmue wont happen'.

--
@thelastword
Please fucking stop posting nonsense and go read up, You know absolutely nothing about this project.

 

[Spukc]

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

 

[Dictator93]

Battlecruiser 3000 AD all over again

I guess you could say Derek wasn't so smart.

heh

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

How does this game have anything to do with those games? Also, isn't RUST still in active dev? Quite active dev?

 

[Tommyhawk]

Seems to be true and also for personal reasons (it is rumoured that someone from his family got seriously ill):

http://www.pcinvasion.com/star-citizen-executive-producer-alex-mayberry-departure-confirmed

In an email to PC Invasion this afternoon, a CIG spokesperson confirmed his departure, stating: “Alex left CIG for personal reasons last month.”

We have received a note from CIG that Global Head of Production Erin Roberts will now be taking over “a lot” of Alex’ duties on the project.

 

[Sou Da]

Every freaking SC thread has those bunch uninformed driveby-ers who dont even have a little decency to read up few bigger interview about this game. Its so annoying!

And the guy dismissing Chris Roberts - wow.

Also posting Shenmue kickstarter as an example hahaha, its probably the worse kickstarter i've ever seen. It basically has 5 paragraphs with rephrased 'please give us money or Shenmue wont happen'.

--
@thelastword
Please fucking stop posting nonsense and go read up, You know absolutely nothing about this project.

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

Right on time. Eerie.

 

[epmode]

Oh god, this is the end. Everybody panic!

 

[Krejlooc]

Well... its his call to outsource modules to satellite studios. Which imo is the biggest mistake they could ever do. These kind of things rarely go well, for any industries. You bleed money on a company that could just give no shits about what the product ends up being as long as they fill their end of the contract to avoid the lawyers. Then have fun debugging someone else's coding method..

Lmao, contract work happens all the time, on virtually every game released.

And you dony debug other peoples code.

 

[tuxfool]

i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

These are related how?

 

[jett]

I really doubt this is going to matter much if at all.

Lmao, contract work happens all the time, on virtually every game released.

And you dony debug other peoples code.

Outsourcing happens all the time, yes, but I'm not sure if entire pillars of a game (outside of a multiplayer component) have been outsourced before the way this game handles it.

 

[Krejlooc]

Outsourcing happens all the time, yes, but I'm not sure if entire pillars of a game (outside of a multiplayer component) have been outsourced before the way this game handles it.

It happens frequently and the contracts done prevent the information from ever being released. There is an entire industry buily around doing just that.

 

[tuxfool]

And you dony debug other peoples code.

What?

He clearly said debugging other peoples coding methods. GameDev is seriously screwed these days, when people even think buggily (there is some weird truth there). Developers need to start hiring brain surgeons to help with bugfixes.

 

[Sijil]

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

Thanks for the salt, just what I needed for my fries.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

well you are in luck to get behind this project then, since nobody has access to the game other than alpha testers that fly ships on three maps.

 

[Spukc]

Thanks for the salt, just what I needed for my fries.

no problem man

 

[jett]

It happens frequently and the contracts done prevent the information from ever being released. There is an entire industry buily around doing just that.

Interesting. Do you have any examples out of curiosity?

 

[JoeyJungle]

These are related how?

Early access games that looked promising at the beginning but development gradually petered out/became less frequent and problems with game systems weren't fixed/took too long to be fixed and promised features were delayed/never delivered. Day Z is/was also an example of this. From what I hear, Starbound turned itself around a few months ago and now have a new community manager that does better communication with the playerbase and also more frequent updates (~once a month, iirc).

I've never played Starbound, so this is just what I've read mostly from forum posts about the game.

 

[pelican]

i hope this game fails hard.
So this early access trash will be closed down.
And not a sane company will ever try these dirty practices again
let alone any normal person will ever ever ever buy an early access game again.


i learned my lesson after rust and starbound.

NEVER AGAIN

You want a game to fail because you don't like it?

Idiot.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Fuck's sake Zabo

You owe me £25

 

[viveks86]

CIG has grown into such a huge organization that things like this would have little to no impact. Not to mention that he has been around for just a year in the first place, so it doesn't really warrant panic.

 

[RulkezX]

The problem is they promised the first 'episode' of Squadron 42 in "late 2015" which is supposed to offer 20 hours of gameplay which is now possibly slipping till mid 2016.

The sad thing is that people who paid a high enough tier to buy the game after the $6m mark wont even get episode 2 or 3 for free. You are looking late 2016 or even 2017 for all 3 episodes which are going to be near full priced games.

They have consistently proven they cannot hit targets they themselves have set, this project is massively bloated and I'm just waiting for the bubble to pop.

Wait what ?

There was no mention of episodes when I bought in and that was well past 6 million.


And 20 hours of content? I remember a video with Chris saying it was around 50.

Hahaha so they've dropped the size of SQ42 and split it into 3 so they can charge...

 

[family_guy]

In other news, key members of Naughty Dog quit while working on Uncharted 4...Uncharted 4 is still being made.

 

[tuxfool]

Wait what ?

There was no mention of episodes when I bought in and that was well past 6 million.

Squadron 42 is being split into 3 separate games. The first episode is being released next year. They're aiming to make it around 20 hours.

 

[Sinatar]

This explains why they just hired that ex-Blizzard guy as an exec producer.