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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 7: How Can My Smash Brother Be This Cut

S

SenorArdilla

Member
RagnarokX said:
ibpNR7Y60tRv6L.gif


Super leaf was terrible in MK7, but it should be interesting in Smash.
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Ha! He still has the noose from earlier.
 
S

Subtervotion

Member
Metal B said:
I would be terrible disappointed, if all those modes (Tournament, Lobbies) and features (Uploads, TV, Voice-Chat) are not also in SSB4 =/ At least the WIiU should have those feature with all the extra time they have ...
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The tournament idea would be pretty awesome. I could finally have a tournament with all items, Halberd only, No fox. Jk.

But online tournaments set up in advance AND auto repeatable would be awesome.
 
D

DaBoss

Member
Well when I guessed the Super Leaf for predictions, I only thought of it for its floating abilities. There is no way they would be able to get attack animations for a tail for all characters. It isn't like the sword or bat.
 
M

Metal B

Member
DaBoss said:
Well when I guessed the Super Leaf for predictions, I only thought of it for its floating abilities. There is no way they would be able to get attack animations for a tail for all characters. It isn't like the sword or bat.
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So, you don't wanna see Ganondorf swing his ass?
 
G

georly

Member
SenorArdilla said:
Ha! He still has the noose from earlier.
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Oh good, that makes more sense. I thought it was a syrup bottle!

DaBoss said:
Well when I guessed the Super Leaf for predictions, I only thought of it for its floating abilities. There is no way they would be able to get attack animations for a tail for all characters. It isn't like the sword or bat.
Click to expand...

Just give it hit detection or something on movement. That way if you turn around and hit someone, it hits. I don't know if i'd want it to replace my A attacks with a short range tail attack.
 
E

ec0ec0

Member
tonyh24613 said:
zlCfzR3ngCkyiOa9z1


Pic of the day. With the Super Leaf, any fighter can have ears and a tail. You can also float in the air by pressing the jump button. We're still figuring out whether you'll be able to attack with the tail...
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why havent they "fixed" toon link eyebrows yet!?
 
G

georly

Member
Lord_Byron28 said:
Im still holding out hope there may be a cat suit as well. Could you imagine Cat Ganondorf or Cat Ridley?
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I really doubt it, due to all the work that would require. That's basically an alternate costume for every character. A tail and ears can be placed on top of existing models (with size adjusted), but a cat suit would have to be modified to be unique to each character, so the amount of work would be the equivalent to almost having a brand new character model for each fighter.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
georly said:
Sure, while that's true, it means the Wii U is actually CAPABLE of allowing it. What game could use replays as well or better than mario kart than smash? If smash doesn't have it, then it's a real shame, and we can't blame anyone but the smash bros dev studio (instead blaming the hardware).

Now that we know that they *CAN* do it, there's no reason they SHOULDNT do it, and it'll just be incredibly disappointing if they don't.
Click to expand...

Truth be told, there's A LOT of stuff that should be in Smash, but probably won't be. Things like more in-depth customization for game settings, for example. If Brawl had the ability to alter hitstun, gravity, speed, etc., then it would've been so much better for all crowds. Just basic settings that are in tons of other games.
 
G

georly

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Truth be told, there's A LOT of stuff that should be in Smash, but probably won't be. Things like more in-depth customization for game settings, for example. If Brawl had the ability to alter hitstun, gravity, speed, etc., then it would've been so much better for all crowds. Just basic settings that are in tons of other games.
Click to expand...

What commercial fighting game on the planet lets you tweak those variables? Those things shouldn't change by design, no?

If smash bros brawl let you save 2 minute replays and share them with friends (all the wii was capable of), then i'll be really surprised if it doesn't let you save (longer) replays and share with friends, and ideally, youtube. At least on Wii U. 3DS, I wouldn't expect it. Screenshot sharing to tumblr, like animal crossing new leaf, shouldn't be out of the question, though.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
georly said:
What commercial fighting game on the planet lets you tweak those variables? Those things shouldn't change by design, no?
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Just because no other fighting game lets you tweak that means does not mean a new one shouldn't either. Advancements are made by trying new things and allowing for new ideas, especially in a franchise that's been around for a long time.

Not sure if you've played Halo, but that game would not nearly be as popular as it is if they didn't allow you to alter settings for Custom Games. Things like movement speed, jump height, player traits like always having Camo, etc.

In Smash, you know those matches you can play that are Lightning Mode, everyone with Bunny Hoods, giant battle, etc., well all I'm saying is let the PLAYERS be able to choose those things. If players want to create a Lightning Mode instead of Sakurai GIVING us a Lightning Mode, then why not? It would add so much depth to the game and would not take away from the core experience. Imagine if in Brawl players had the option to REMOVE tripping? It could only help the franchise and in Brawl's, it would have definitely been more respected, especially in the tourney scene if this were the case.
 
L

Linkhero1

Member
The thirst for Ridley is strong in this thread.

The pic of the day has me wondering when the game will be out. I'd have thought they would have already made a decision on how all items work by now. Hopefully it's just last minute thing and nothing more. I want Smash as soon as possible. ;)
 
G

georly

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Just because no other fighting game lets you tweak that means does not mean a new one shouldn't either. Advancements are made by trying new things and allowing for new ideas, especially in a franchise that's been around for a long time.

Not sure if you've played Halo, but that game would not nearly be as popular as it is if they didn't allow you to alter settings for Custom Games. Things like movement speed, jump height, player traits like always having Camo, etc.

In Smash, you know those matches you can play that are Lightning Mode, everyone with Bunny Hoods, giant battle, etc., well all I'm saying is let the PLAYERS be able to choose those things. If players want to create a Lightning Mode instead of Sakurai GIVING us a Lightning Mode, then why not? It would add so much depth to the game and would not take away from the core experience. Imagine if in Brawl players had the option to REMOVE tripping? It could only help the franchise and in Brawl's, it would have definitely been more respected, especially in the tourney scene if this were the case.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how I feel about modifying core values of a fighting game. While it would be fun, I guess, those variables seem to be core to how the game functions and operates. Testing that those variable changes don't completely break the game would be astronomically difficult. Would be super fun to mess around with, but there's also a huge risk that consumers break your game, which is never good.

Maybe toggling different levels of speed and gravity are ok, but I dunno about hitstun and other variables that your average gamer won't understand or care about.

That said, my request for uploading to youtube is not nearly as demanding as giving players options to toggle core fighting game variables, I don't think. Especially now that there's precedent for it in mario kart 8.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
georly said:
I'm not sure how I feel about modifying core values of a fighting game. While it would be fun, I guess, those variables seem to be core to how the game functions and operates. Testing that those variable changes don't completely break the game would be astronomically difficult. Would be super fun to mess around with, but there's also a huge risk that consumers break your game, which is never good.
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IMO this is always good because it results in a better game, whether through an update or changes to the next game. Also, "breaking" a game can make it play better and balance certain elements that were broken/overpowered (ie: landing lag cancels in 64/Melee and wavetech in Melee helped subpar characters be way more effective -- if Z canceling didn't exist in 64, Link would be absolutely useless against good players).

Maybe toggling different levels of speed and gravity are ok, but I dunno about hitstun and other variables that your average gamer won't understand or care about.
Click to expand...
So then they won't use it, just like Forge or the Custom Game options I told you about in Halo. Giving players more options should never be viewed as a bad thing.
That said, my request for uploading to youtube is not nearly as demanding as giving players options to toggle core fighting game variables, I don't think. Especially now that there's precedent for it in mario kart 8.
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Yeah, I kind of derailed your point about YouTube hahah, but wanted to throw in there that Smash needs a lot of stuff that could benefit the franchise for many years. I totally agree with everything you said on that front btw.
 
G

georly

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
IMO this is always good because it results in a better game, whether through an update or changes to the next game. Also, "breaking" a game can make it play better and balance certain elements that were broken/overpowered (ie: landing lag cancels in 64/Melee and wavetech in Melee helped subpar characters be way more effective -- if Z canceling didn't exist in 64, Link would be absolutely useless against good players).


So then they won't use it, just like Forge or the Custom Game options I told you about in Halo. Giving players more options should never be viewed as a bad thing.

Yeah, I kind of derailed your point about YouTube hahah, but wanted to throw in there that Smash needs a lot of stuff that could benefit the franchise for many years. I totally agree with everything you said on that front btw.
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I mean, like, crashes, or unintended glitchy behavior. Like, if you set gravity to x, speed to y, hitstun to z, then the game explodes, and you get negative PR. Especially if it's past the point where there exists a team that can look at that output and fix it. The more variable tweaks you give the user, the more variable combinations you need to test, because the more possibilities that something can go wrong exist. While changing core engine variables would be nice from a user-perspective, it would be a nightmare for testing and the PR team, especially if the bug is found early on and gets posted everywhere on the internet.

It's GOOD for the consumer, sure, but it's a nightmare for nintendo, and one they probably would rather avoid.

But yes, YOUTUBE AND TUMBLR INTEGRATION PLEASE :)
 
D

DisconnectD

Member
DaBoss said:
Well when I guessed the Super Leaf for predictions, I only thought of it for its floating abilities. There is no way they would be able to get attack animations for a tail for all characters. It isn't like the sword or bat.
Click to expand...

They maybe could if only the tail swung while turning your character, but then they'd have to program it so it didn't work when doing it back and forth because dash dancing would break it ha
 
D

DisconnectD

Member
georly said:
I mean, like, crashes, or unintended glitchy behavior. Like, if you set gravity to x, speed to y, hitstun to z, then the game explodes, and you get negative PR. Especially if it's past the point where there exists a team that can look at that output and fix it. The more variable tweaks you give the user, the more variable combinations you need to test, because the more possibilities that something can go wrong exist. While changing core engine variables would be nice from a user-perspective, it would be a nightmare for testing and the PR team, especially if the bug is found early on and gets posted everywhere on the internet.

It's GOOD for the consumer, sure, but it's a nightmare for nintendo, and one they probably would rather avoid.

But yes, YOUTUBE AND TUMBLR INTEGRATION PLEASE :)
Click to expand...



I agree on all these points. A fighting game has too many variables that need to stay constant and changing core mechanics is a nightmare waiting to happen, though it'd be fun. I think we are lucky to even have custom movesets because depending on how in depth that is, that was probably hard to play test.
 
G

georly

Member
DisconnectD said:
I agree on all these points. A fighting game has too many variables that need to stay constant and changing core mechanics is a nightmare waiting to happen, though it'd be fun. I think we are lucky to even have custom movesets because depending on how in depth that is, that was probably hard to play test.
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I'm just coming from a software development standpoint. My experience is that the more options you give your customer, the more likely they are to break the software. You need to stand firm on what should and shouldn't change, simply because you can't always afford to always fix what they break because you gave them too many options.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
georly said:
I'm just coming from a software development standpoint. My experience is that the more options you give your customer, the more likely they are to break the software. You need to stand firm on what should and shouldn't change, simply because you can't always afford to always fix what they break because you gave them too many options.
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I don't know man.. If these options literally break the game (crashes, etc.), then that tells me the development team clearly didn't do a good job testing these things and/or they weren't ready for release. If they're going to allow people to adjust hitstun properties via a slider, wouldn't they have to test it extensively before they release it in the final product and have planned on it early in development? lol

The argument of "we shouldn't do X because it can cause crashes" doesn't hold as much weight in this situation (IMO) because this is the exact thing people get paid to make sure doesn't happen, just like many other games in existence :b

DisconnectD said:
I agree on all these points. A fighting game has too many variables that need to stay constant and changing core mechanics is a nightmare waiting to happen, though it'd be fun. I think we are lucky to even have custom movesets because depending on how in depth that is, that was probably hard to play test.
Click to expand...

I think you guys are underestimating the experience of these developers working on a franchise like Smash.
 
G

georly

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
I don't know man.. If these options literally break the game (crashes, etc.), then that tells me the development team clearly didn't do a good job testing these things and/or they weren't ready for release. If they're going to allow people to adjust hitstun properties via a slider, wouldn't they have to test it extensively before they release it in the final product and have planned on it early in development? lol

The argument of "we shouldn't do X because it can cause crashes" doesn't hold as much weight in this situation (IMO) because this is the exact thing people get paid to make sure doesn't happen, just like many other games in existence :b



I think you guys are underestimating the experience of these developers working on a franchise like Smash.
Click to expand...

Oh, no, i'm not saying it's not possible, it totally is, but they HAVE to have performed a cost-benefit analysis on something like that. The more variables you give the player, the more things you have to test, and that increases exponentially. They can TOTALLY do it, for sure, but is it WORTH all the extra programming and testing to include a feature many people won't even use? A feature like that requires testing for every possible permutation of configuration, maybe one whole 8 hour test session for 1-4 players (1-4 testers) per each permutation of configuration.

Assuming we have your 3 variables, each with 3 settings (low, medium, high):
Gravity
Speed
Hitstun length

That's 27 different possible permutations (n^r), each requiring 32 man hours (4 players/testers x 1 work day of 8 hours) is 864 man hours. You can't just assume that one of those permutations will work, so you have to test all of them. That can be a 20,000 dollar investment in testing alone, not to mention developers developing it, and then bugfixing what the testers find. A feature as simple as that can be a 50,000 dollar investment, maybe more!

Is it possible? Sure. Can the afford it? Sure? Is it worth it for them? That's up to them to decide.


Ok, i'm done ranting! :p Ignore me.

Edit: yes i made a lot of assumptions. I could be 100% wrong. I'm not familiar with how they handle dev/testing, so i could be way off. All i'm trying to say is that any feature with variables takes a lot of time and money. :)
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
georly said:
Oh, no, i'm not saying it's not possible, it totally is, but they HAVE to have performed a cost-benefit analysis on something like that. The more variables you give the player, the more things you have to test, and that increases exponentially. They can TOTALLY do it, for sure, but is it WORTH all the extra programming and testing to include a feature many people won't even use?
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Yup, considered this. That's why I used Brawl as an example; imagine if the competitive players were able to adjust these things? Brawl would still be in the spotlight and would be getting more exposure, and as a result selling way more copies for the long haul. A risk, sure, but I think the investment would seriously pay off.

That's 27 different possible permutations (n^r), each requiring 32 man hours (4 players/testers x 1 work day of 8 hours) is 864 man hours. You can't just assume that one of those permutations will work, so you have to test all of them. That can be a 20,000 dollar investment in testing alone, not to mention developers developing it, and then bugfixing what the testers find. A feature as simple as that can be a 50,000 dollar investment, maybe more!

Is it possible? Sure. Can the afford it? Sure? Is it worth it for them? That's up to them to decide.
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For Nintendo, especially given the overwhelming benefits this would have for Smash, I don't think those figures would be an issue.

All i'm trying to say is that any feature with variables takes a lot of time and money. :)
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For sure, but I think it would 100% be worth it.
 
D

DisconnectD

Member
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
I don't know man.. If these options literally break the game (crashes, etc.), then that tells me the development team clearly didn't do a good job testing these things and/or they weren't ready for release. If they're going to allow people to adjust hitstun properties via a slider, wouldn't they have to test it extensively before they release it in the final product and have planned on it early in development? lol

The argument of "we shouldn't do X because it can cause crashes" doesn't hold as much weight in this situation (IMO) because this is the exact thing people get paid to make sure doesn't happen, just like many other games in existence :b



I think you guys are underestimating the experience of these developers working on a franchise like Smash.
Click to expand...

I get where you are coming from. I really do, but I think you are underestimating the astronomical amount of variables to consider when play testing something like that. I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject can explain why the comparison between halo's customization & a FG is not applicable but that ain't me!
 
J

justchris

Member
georly said:
Sure, while that's true, it means the Wii U is actually CAPABLE of allowing it. What game could use replays as well or better than mario kart than smash? If smash doesn't have it, then it's a real shame, and we can't blame anyone but the smash bros dev studio (instead blaming the hardware).

Now that we know that they *CAN* do it, there's no reason they SHOULDNT do it, and it'll just be incredibly disappointing if they don't.
Click to expand...

Huh, wonder why the Wii U version is coming out later than the 3ds version....
 
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