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Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I'm dying.
Eh, well, it's not my layout. The person who made it said the core characters start in the middle and moves outward from there.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
It look good so far.
Peach steals the show yet again like in Subspace Emissary!
Whoever said the Phantom will replace the Sheik transformation possibly making Toon Zelda a possibility... interesting idea. Or Toon Zelda could just transform into Tetra.
Although Sheik has a lot of fans, I wonder how many would be really upset if they just gave her nearly identical moveset to Impa.
Whoever said the Phantom will replace the Sheik transformation possibly making Toon Zelda a possibility... interesting idea. Or Toon Zelda could just transform into Tetra.
Although Sheik has a lot of fans, I wonder how many would be really upset if they just gave her nearly identical moveset to Impa.
Karsticles
Member
I think one problem Smash tends to have is that the characters dont have much of an overall strategic purpose to their moveset. Samus is keepaway/harass, but Mario is...what?
Here is a Mario moveset:
B - Fireball: deals burn damage over time. Cancels into itself up to 3 times.
Up-B - Mario grabs a brick from thin air, jumps, and sets it beneath himself. One brick can exist at a time, and no jump is involved if he is airborne. Bricks are grabbable. Thrown bricks cause a dizzy state on the enemy for up to 40% damage. Bricks can also be set down, and negate projectiles.
Side-B - Mario spins, knocking back enemies far across the screen. Reflects projectiles.
Down-B - Mario pulls out a Bo-bomb. It can be thrown or set down. If thrown, it explodes and deals burn damage. If set down, it chooses an opponent on the screen and chases after him/her until it explodes. It cannot be picked up by non-Mario characters.
Down-A butt stomp. Goes through bricks.
So now Mario is a ranged harass character who tries to use Bo-bombs to irritate people while throwing fireballs, and he can create leverage for himself through a projectile-negating wall. His toolset ensures that characters need to come to him, not the other way around. His brick placement ability gives him unique options for trying to recover after being knocked off the screen, and it allows him unique harassment tools against opponents who are in such a position. His spin creates pushback even when blocked.
This took me 5 minutes to think up, and while it is not perfect, it is an improvement on his current moveset.
Also, if it were up to me, all B attacks would have charged versions that buff them up. Just half a second, and Mario fires 4 fireballs at various angles instead of one, his spin makes him shoot fireballs, his bricks become physical immune, and the Bo-bomb becomes mega-sized so it is harder to avoid.
I do not doubt that I could do this with any of the cast members, and it would be more interesting than anything Sakurai comes up with.
User 73706
Banned
If Sakurai really wants to make people flip their shit, he should reveal the total number of characters in the roster, and then not change the character reveal schedule at all.
Lord_Byron28
Member
Yeah what I'm kinda thinking/hoping is that they give Zelda, Phantom control for her down B. As pointed out the Phantom isn't toon shaded its designed in a similar artstyle to that of Zelda. Then they could introduce Impa in her SS incarnation with Sheik's moveset and perhaps a few other spruces to her and Zelda's moveset. I don't think missing Sheik will be a huge deal since there will still be a Sheikah on the roster that plays similarly to the original character and Impa is the most consistent recurring character in the Zelda series, outside the triforce bearers, appearing in 7 titles.
Save 'N Quit
Banned
Sad no SS but I'm okay with TP Zelda and her "I'm going to kill you" look.
In the camp that Phantom is an AT, including hope Toon Zelda will appear for a few seconds before/after she takes possession of it.
In the camp that Phantom is an AT, including hope Toon Zelda will appear for a few seconds before/after she takes possession of it.
kunonabi
Member
I'd love this since sheik transformation is useless to me as a Zelda player and I like ss impa far more than sheik.
Green Mamba
Member
I really doubt the Phantom is an Assist Trophy--Assist Trophies, by and large, retain their designs directly from their source (with a few tweaks here and there). The Phantom is redesigned on a scale normally reserved for playable characters. I think it's part of Zelda's moveset, but how or where I couldn't tell you. It is interesting that pretty much none of her moves are visible in the screenshots, and the only animation I think I recognize is this, which is either the wind up for her forward smash or her forward tilt.
This is decidedly quite different from most of the other veterans, where I could recognize the animations pretty plainly. I think Zelda's been given a Pit/Bowser-esque makeover.
This is decidedly quite different from most of the other veterans, where I could recognize the animations pretty plainly. I think Zelda's been given a Pit/Bowser-esque makeover.
She may be getting a redesign, yeah. Almost none of her moves are shown, not even the signature Goddess spells.
And that picture is definitely her forward tilt.
Green Mamba
Member
Yeah, the more I look at it, the more certain I am of the Phantom being a part of her moveset. The only Assist Trophy that I could say was really "redesigned" was Waluigi in Brawl, and that was just some denim textures on his overalls. Compare instead how different SSB4's Phantom is and the Phantom Zelda design from Spirit Tracks are:
EDIT: Skull Kid's design as an Assist Trophy in this is pretty much a higher polygon version of his Majora's Mask design down to the finest detail, so I really highly doubt Phantom Zelda would be as redesigned as she is if she was an Assist Trophy, especially how considering how on model Toon Link is now.
And thanks for confirming that for me, Hello.
EDIT: Skull Kid's design as an Assist Trophy in this is pretty much a higher polygon version of his Majora's Mask design down to the finest detail, so I really highly doubt Phantom Zelda would be as redesigned as she is if she was an Assist Trophy, especially how considering how on model Toon Link is now.
And thanks for confirming that for me, Hello.
The Phantom's proportions are the same as in Spirit Tracks, with a long torso, broad shoulders, short legs, and small feet. It makes absolutely no sense for Twilight Princess Zelda to summon a chibified Spirit Tracks character.
I think it would be fun if we all wagered/voted on what we think the Phantom is.
Going to make guesses, based off this image:
Row 1: Pac-Man, Wario, Yoshi, Dixie Kong, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Mii, Wii Fit Trainer, Snake
Row 2: Mr. Game & Watch, Rosalina, Peach, Bowser, Luigi, Mario, Kirby, Meta-Knight, King Dedede, Captain Olimar, Villager, R.O.B.
Row 3: Sonic, Lucario, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Impa (replacement for Sheik w/ same moveset), Mega Man
Row 4: Takamaru, Little Mac, Ice Climbers, Chrom, Marth, Samus, Pit, Palutena, Ness, Lucas
Also I'd add two more on row 4 and put Ike and Medusa/Hades on there.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'm just... not that fond of that idea? I like Smash as a celebration of Nintendo, and really that's just... not very Mario. To the extent that any character has a particular 'style' of fighting other than the one the player gives them, that style should really originate from the game series they come from and not be an invention for Smash. Why should Mario be a ranged harass character? That doesn't seem true to Mario at all. He's always been the every-man in whichever series he appears in, the ultimate average - can do most things reasonably well, but nothing amazing.
User 73706
Banned
I'm guessing one of four things.
A) Zelda has been given a new down-b move that functions as a counter (much like Marth) where if she's not damaged, it does nothing. If she takes damage, she summons a Phantom for a brief sucker-punch which proceeds to just fly offscreen or maybe dematerialize along the lines of Ganondorf's final smash. Transformation is replaced in favor of making either Sheik or Impa (another Sheikah in the first place, with an amazing Skyward Sword design at that) a newcomer and would doubly provide a unique addition from the Zelda franchise instead of Toon Zelda / whoever.
2) Same as above, but she's given the Phantom sucker punch counter as a replacement for her neutral B. Has some precedence in the past, as Peach calls upon a subordinate for counter purposes with her neutral B and theyr'e both princesses.
III) It's an Assist Trophy and Zelda's force-choke gesture is just a revamped animation for an old move.
PIPE DREAM: Toon Zelda joins the fray in her Phantom suit as a bulky, aggressive-as-shit Samus clone. I spend all of my money on six trillion copies of SSB4.
A) Zelda has been given a new down-b move that functions as a counter (much like Marth) where if she's not damaged, it does nothing. If she takes damage, she summons a Phantom for a brief sucker-punch which proceeds to just fly offscreen or maybe dematerialize along the lines of Ganondorf's final smash. Transformation is replaced in favor of making either Sheik or Impa (another Sheikah in the first place, with an amazing Skyward Sword design at that) a newcomer and would doubly provide a unique addition from the Zelda franchise instead of Toon Zelda / whoever.
2) Same as above, but she's given the Phantom sucker punch counter as a replacement for her neutral B. Has some precedence in the past, as Peach calls upon a subordinate for counter purposes with her neutral B and theyr'e both princesses.
III) It's an Assist Trophy and Zelda's force-choke gesture is just a revamped animation for an old move.
PIPE DREAM: Toon Zelda joins the fray in her Phantom suit as a bulky, aggressive-as-shit Samus clone. I spend all of my money on six trillion copies of SSB4.
I'm leaning more towards it being an assist trophy. The fact that the design slightly differs from the original art doesn't dismiss the assist trophy possibility. I do find it weird that they'd put a screenshot of an unannounced assist trophy in the set of shots for a newly announced character though.
I hope it's a new move. I'm in the camp that wants it to be her new down-special to bring in Impa with a variation of Sheik's moveset.
I hope it's a new move. I'm in the camp that wants it to be her new down-special to bring in Impa with a variation of Sheik's moveset.
Karsticles
Member
Re: knight summon. I actually think the move might work like Elizabeth's persona in P4A. She summons the persona, and then it simply attacks forward. By pressing the persona button again, you can make the persona continue to attack forward in different ways. This would fit really well with Zelda's playstyle, since she could use the move for mindgames in combination with her fireballs.
It would offer something very different from Rosalina, too.
It would offer something very different from Rosalina, too.
It's not like he won't have melee attacks. But in terms of special abilities, Mario has always been about ranged attacks. My main point was that Sakurai's movesets are boring and slapped together, without any greater strategic claim for the most part. Mario is probably the worst offender. FLUDD is a piece of shit, his fireballs are weak, his uppercut makes him prone, and his spin move is usually unsafe. He has been a bad character in every single Smash game.
Green Mamba
Member
I don't think the proportions are exactly the same--SSB4's Phantom has larger feet, for instance (and nonexistent feet are hardly a concern of Smash considering Toon Link's). In fact, I think the way the SSB4 Phantom is bending gives the illusion of it being more super deformed than it actually is. The legs of the ST Phantoms are practically nonexistent, even in the official art, but I think if the SSB4 Phantom stood up straight, it would definitely appear taller.
In fact, looking at it more, I think the two designs differ on nearly every single detail--chest plate, helmet, metal skirt thing, elbow and knee joints, extra patterning on the armor and sword. If it is an Assist Trophy, it is an unprecedentedly redesigned one.
EDIT: It's also worth noting, I think, that it is entirely possible that we could have gotten a character called "Toon Sheik" in Brawl, so I don't know if Sakurai considers the two takes on the characters to be as segregated as we may think.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I wouldn't want them to have a 'greater strategic claim', though, unless it refers to the spirit of the series. If Mario is weak, then just buff his moves. However, don't change his moveset to make him stronger by turning him into a particular niche of fighter if that niche completely ignores his series' history. Go play Galaxy, or NSMBU. Mario is only focused around 'ranged' attacks when you get the Fire Flower/Ice Flower/Penguin Suit. For the most part, Mario is focused around physical contact. To make him some sort of ranged fighter using Bo-bombs is just... a really strange design choice.
I'd much sooner argue that Mario's special ability has always been his use of powerups, which encompasses a wide range of melee, ranged, and mobility options. Focusing on just one of those misses a lot of the rest of the character, and you can't ignore that he's the iconic "jump on stuff" hero either.
Not that I'm any too wild about his moveset as is.
I fully second the notion about old characters like Mario. I don't like how a lot of the older veterans play and was hoping Sakurai would "reboot" them. Seeing them unchanged has me disappointed for a number of reasons. I kind of went into this yesterday a little bit, but basically with the exception of FLUDD every move for the Mario cast is either from a game that is SM64 or older, or an original creation. Rosalina helps by bringing in a lot of Galaxy mechanics, but it doesn't change the matter that those characters feel outdated both in terms of their representation as well as being fun/interesting to play.
Not really. There was Starfy but everyone knows he's an AT.
User 73706
Banned
Maybe Mario could find a slightly new niche as a complete fucker-over-rer by making the enemy helpless when he footstool jumps them or something. Except, y'know, turned into an actual move with a reliable functionality.
Hours Left
Member
Well, Starfy this time, though most people already know he is one.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'd like this. A reasonable stun on other characters on a footstool jump would be amazing.
I'm surprised jumping on someone never made it into the game. Maybe implement it as a throw? The only one that's really a reference to anything is the Bowser toss as a back throw so I'm sure it could be logically put in.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
In any case, wouldn't Phantom be cartoony if it's "merely" an assist trophy?
What if that's the surprise
TADA STARFY IS ACTUALLY PLAYABLE!
What if that's the surprise
TADA STARFY IS ACTUALLY PLAYABLE!
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Boss Doggie said:
stop
your breaking my heart
Phantom isn't too big tho.
Don't joke about what could've been a solid character choice.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This person, I like him.
I thought so too, but it looks like the picture with Link and Peach has Zelda doing a different part of the same pose, with no phantom in sight. I dunno either, but I think it'll end up just being a cleverly placed assist trophy, rather than a new move.
At the same time though, it's weird for him to show it in a random character reveal screen, instead of taking an entire day's pic for it. I could also easily see it appearing quickly for her side b or f-smash.
Karsticles
Member
Greater strategic claim is just another way of saying good character design.
Like I said, it was just an example. I still think my moveset is better than Sakurai's, but you could do something like this:
Up+B: Tanooki Suit; temporary flight, pressing up+B again gives the tail whap. Can be canceled into other specials.
B: Fireball. Burn damage, cancels into itself 3 times.
Down+B: enter metal Mario state; you cannot fly while in this state
Left+B: spin move
The problem with him being the "jump on stuff" hero is that it doesnt translate to a fighting game. I mean, you could give Mario a special dizzy effect on opponents if he jumps off their head, but it will almost never come into play.
So with this build, Mario is more about charging in while metaled and plowing into groups. He has three power-ups from his games. The fireball is kind of an odd man out strategically, but it is a classic move that cannot go! If you wanted full synergy, sub out the fireball for his iceball. Now his projectile is all about helping him close in on opponents in his slowed down metal state.
You could get both in there by making his spin attack shoot fireballs, and neutral B shoot ice balls. That is probably best.
NeonZ
Member
If it is a move, I think the armor actually moves forward and attacks, while Zelda sits still. That would explain the other shot with her in the same pose, but no armor in sight. It could just be off screen.
Hours Left
Member
I wish... ;_;
Spring-Loaded
Member
I wonder if character interact with one another while idling, or if peach fiddles with other characters' clothing. There are a lot of pictures like that, but it could just be Sakurai carefully positioning them for comedic effect
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I hope not since I really like to use Din's Fire. If they decided to remove Din's Fire, I wonder if it was removed because it's hard to see Din's fire on 3DS. I seriously doubt that anyway.
I wish but Sakurai love to make us waiting for the transformation characters. We haven't got Zero Suit Samus yet.