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[Northeastmonk]

Juggles have to have something appealing to them if you ask me. I could skip over a ton of tutorials just because the end result felt so boring. Your juggle doesn't haven't to be the most damaging if you ask me. You just have to like it and know how to pull it off in less of a second.

Many times I do a juggle with some quick punish because I can get back to playing. I get burned out with Tekken (granted I love the series) because the ones I have memorized don't get me anywhere. I can perfect people online, but I basically suck at the game. I have no real experience besides arcade and some online modes.
I do sometimes go back to older fighting games because it takes the stress out of knowing what some popular juggle is. There's less stress in throwing together regular moves versus doing the same juggle over and over again. If that makes any sense?

I like all kinds of fighting games. I just can't really compete. I love playing, but even my friends on my friend list blow me up in say GGXrd. I kinda feel like my enjoyment is either kept in arcade mode or occasionally in a match online.

Sometimes it just sucks if you don't want to do the multi-step process that involves doing a combo. Sometimes throwing an awesome regular move out there at the right time is just enough.

 

[Manbig]

While I loved irfaanator's Unlimited Bait Works in this topic, it is... somewhat surreal to see someone actually arguing with Oneida about VF.

I don't post very often at all, let alone about VF, but I assure you that pretty much every time VF comes up in a conversation that I'm a part of, I rave about how great it is too. That awkward animation is the only negative thing I've probably ever even said about it.

 

[Sou Da]

Can we also ban multi hitting moves? They're like juggles on one button or a motion

RIP Killer Instinct.

 

[LordKasual]

I really don't know how punishing a player for using a burst for the whole round and essentially creating the need to play perfectly after it makes for the best combo breaker system ever, neither why BB would change that rule if it was so good.

Well Blazblue changes its burst system almost literally every entry. But it was my favorite because of how much weight was put into it.

But ASW changed it because i assumed they wanted people to actually use the mechanic

And newbies who would come fresh into netplay after story mode would mash Burst at really stupid times (first time they got hit) and would just get decimated

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

You rang? ;o

 

[DSix]

Don't worry friend I have the cure for what ails you.

This just gave me PTSD.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Combos are bad actually

 

[King Gilga]

Yeah they're fine in 2d fighting games but they look soooo dumb in 3d ones.

I'm not saying remove them, just make them look less stupid.

 

[kunonabi]

Blazblue CT had the best combo breaker ever. Using Burst would remove your ability to barrier block (pushblock + pretty much negates chip damage).

but it also put you in DANGER state (1.5x damage taken IIRC) for the rest of the round, and you didn't get another burst until the next match. So if someone would read your burst and block it, you would basically just be fucked for the rest of the round.



Well offensive options are pretty much defined by defensive ones, so i don't know what you're getting at here when you speak on "fundamental imbalance". Any move's offensive power is pretty much 50% defined by its properties when blocked.

And 3D fighters have more defensive options than ever, because sidestepping gives you a completely different way to avoid attacks you know are coming.

And in Tekken these days, pretty much everyone has some form of parry and low parry is universal. SFV has recently gone the way of Anime games and included a way to escape blockstun with V-reversal. Even Guilty Gear, the most offensive fighting game out there, has some really good defensive options for those who know how to use them.


Launchers themselves follow this rule of being balanced by defensive options. Almost all of them are stupidly unsafe when blocked. And then you have the really really good ones (Electric Wind God Fist) with really simple to understand weaknesses (can just duck it and wiff punish)

This isnt a new thing they copied from anime games. Its something they brought back from older capcom titles.

 

[aaaaaa]

In games that try to have realistic fighting styles, juggles look awful. This is the main reason I never got into the Virtua Fighter series. I don't mind them in Street Fighter or MK which have cartoonish fighting to begin with.

 

[The Fatal Englishman]

Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.

Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.

That's the point.

It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.

10 hit combos were never actually a thing. Yeah, they were in the games but they were completely useless because they were canned strings that could be interrupted with a launcher. Using one in a match was basically the equivalent of holding up a sign to your opponent stating 'Please Kill Me Now'.

Honestly, there's so much misinformation surrounding Tekken in general because most people who play it have never played competitively or even online and the games have never actually had a competent tutorial.

 

[thepenguin55]

This particular gif is pretty telling and i'm going to use it in the OP (thanks).

See how the opponent looks like he has no weight. The way he floats, goes up and down without touching the ground, how there's no proper loop in the animation and it ends abruptly, etc, etc.

It looks ugly and fake.

Personally, I think it's odd to be turned off by a fighting game purely because the juggles look strange which is something I've seen a few people say in this thread but I guess it's all about what you're willing to accept. I think juggling is like many things in games in that the wonky juggle animations and juggling in of itself were all probably at least somewhat born out of the technical limitations of the time (maybe even the result of glitches in some cases) but then juggling as we know it quickly became such an established thing in fighting games that most developers just have never really tried to solve the problem with juggles looking odd. On top of that input timing is so important to fighting games that I don't know if wonky juggle animations is really even a solvable problem as juggling is just such an unrealistic thing that to make a more realistic fighting game would be to make one without juggling.

I don't think it's crazy to say that stuff like comic books, manga, anime, martial arts movies and stuff like that are all major influences on fighting games. I think this is why I've always been able to wave away any weirdness in fighting games like juggles because for the most part none of these games are really meant to be realistic in any way. Back in the day people made a big deal about how weird some of the SF3: 3rd Strike's roster was but I would argue that in a world where people can teleport by doing yoga and can shoot beams of pure energy or fire from their hands a stretchy alien looking dude doesn't seem all that out of place to me. Having said all of that there's certainly a place for more realistic fighters. I guess realistic fighters would be stuff like Fight Night and UFC but those are such radically different things from stuff like KOF that it's weird to include them as part of the fighting game family.

Wow, I went on a bit of tangent there, but I think it's all mostly relevant to the topic. Anyway, I do actually like this topic as it got me to think about something that I normally don't.

 

[Mokujin]

Juggling is awesome in Tekken once you "get it", but I understand how some can found it unnapealing.

 

[grap3fruitman]

From the Tekken 7 thread, lol.

Will you all be playing?

 

[Numb]

From the Tekken 7 thread, lol.

Will you all be playing?