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The awful "knocking your opponent midair over and over again" in fighting games.
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
can you find an example where she doesn't?
Personally, I think the realism argument doesnt make sense considering, most fighting games have crazy rosters involving animals, robots, demons, and ninjas,etc. Thats not too mention the fireballs, weapons, etc that these characters use in a match.
In terms of being unfair, it takes a ton of skill to actually know the correct attacks (Light, medium, and Hard) and damage to maintain a long juggle of an opponent. In addition to being able to know each characters bread and butter combos so that you dont get hit with a simple launcher also takes some skill.
So basically this topic comes down to "git gud".
In terms of being unfair, it takes a ton of skill to actually know the correct attacks (Light, medium, and Hard) and damage to maintain a long juggle of an opponent. In addition to being able to know each characters bread and butter combos so that you dont get hit with a simple launcher also takes some skill.
So basically this topic comes down to "git gud".
Tekken's grounded hits that combo (natural combos or counter hit combos) are designed in such a way that putting juggle style rewards to all of them would completely ruin the balance of the game. It's not just something that you can simply tweak damage changes to either. There's a lot of considerations in juggles like setting up oki follow ups, wall carry, setting up positioning in regards to wall placement, size of opponent changing your combos, and other things that I'm probably forgetting.
The juggles are necessary. If people don't like that, then don't play Tekken. There's lots of other fighting games out there that handle things differently.
Don't really agree, but I would have really liked to try playing this.
Juggling has always looked kinda whack, but that's how the cookie crumbles. I'd rather have them put the time into other stuff than making the juggle animation look good. Although NRS games are really something else.
Let me tell you about this 25 year old game that is still popular called Super Turbo...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSi85hai_-I
Juggles allow for a lot more freeform combos and variety. 3D fighters tend to rely on them heavily due to their systems not meshing very well with link/cancel type combo systems.
Strings that naturally combo already are already a "stagger back" type of combo, and there's *plenty* of those in 3D fighters.
Not to mention basic juggle combos are easy to do, which allows beginners to feel like they're accomplishing something.
LordKasual
Banned
that wasnt directed at you, just the thread in general
Guilty Gear has characters that are literally designed to reset you to death on first knockdown lol
if someone would complain about getting juggled, then i cant imagine how they would react to basic Millia pressure after getting sweeped
Also, just in case any of you are assuming that juggles dominate high level play in Tekken, they really don't. Look up any sets with the best players in the world and you'll see that the majority of the damage comes from pokes, strings, or hard hitting whiff punishes. Setting up launchers for juggles against a high level opponent is actually very difficult.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I've been biting my tongue to not say this for the sake of discussion. We already got a dumbed down sfv and some still find it hard.. MVCI is following the same steps yet some will drop it after they get some L's online. Some just don't have the patience to learn and some just can't overcome the salt. People want to do cool shit with the less minimum effort requiered aka instant gratification it doesn't work that way.
LordKasual
Banned
I think Tekken actually does a decent enough job of making it look good. There are alot more than just one "juggle" animation.
I think T6's bound combos looked kind of silly in most cases, but the spinning hitstun it was replaced with in 7 looks neat enough.
Anyway, has anyone posted a gif of that Tekken movie where Heihachi is doing a videogame-style air juggle on Kazuya? Its glorious
WiseguyMVP
Member
Funny.
I don't know why but I haven't been into fighting games for years. Maybe because it's the timing/combos you have to learn and I'm getting older, or the comical over the top fake fighting.
I can definitely see the appeal for people that like the genre though.
eyeball_kid
Member
Juggles aren't "necessary", they are a design decision. If you took juggles out of Tekken, you'd still have a winner and a loser in every match, and people would probably still have fun.
Of course there would be a winner and loser in every match. You're not really saying anything at all with that comment.
My point was that they are necessary for the state of the game's balance. People that want juggles out of Tekken are basically asking for the equivalent of removing one of a dog's legs. It's completely absurd and is missing the point of why they are in the game in the first place. It's not just about the visual. I made that quite clear.
nkarafo
Member
Let me rephrase:
At least it looks like characters have some weight during juggling animations in this game, judging by this gif.
Virtua Fighter juggles look a lot more awkward than Tekken juggles, because the characters are naturally floaty without even being hit in the air. Based on what you said in your own OP, I would imagine that VF would be your least favorite visually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Eyss96iWog
Spuck-uk
Banned
This person has no clue about Soul Calibur, a game where characters can juggle to ringour from the starting position on the stage.
nkarafo
Member
I only played one VF game (i think it was 4?) and don't remember many things. But the gif the other guy posted is from VF 2 arcade i think.
ChrisSTARR
Neo Member
A lot of the problem seems to come from being helpless. As an Vs player, I totally understand that being caught in a 10 second combo is frustrating.
but it's important to understand that if you're being combo'd, you fucked up somewhere and you are now paying the consequence and your opponent is being rewarded.
In my opinion, fighting games could solve this by increasing damage scaling. The longer the combo, the less damage it does. This changes the focus from comboing your opponent to resets. Resets are usually the most exciting part of fighting games anyway, and it would be more fun for both players and more exciting for those watching.
but it's important to understand that if you're being combo'd, you fucked up somewhere and you are now paying the consequence and your opponent is being rewarded.
In my opinion, fighting games could solve this by increasing damage scaling. The longer the combo, the less damage it does. This changes the focus from comboing your opponent to resets. Resets are usually the most exciting part of fighting games anyway, and it would be more fun for both players and more exciting for those watching.
They could take the route one game did I saw, where the long combos scale, and the infinites actually heal the opponent after a while instead of damaging them
Eh...only Hilde could do that in sc4. Juggles in SC have become more prevalent, but most combos are on the ground.
Spuck-uk
Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm4R7CEJEvA
Dust Loops look cool as hell, and if you don't like them, well..
Dust Loops look cool as hell, and if you don't like them, well..
Baron Von Beans
Member
Ha! Now THAT is an anti-infinite mechanic I can get behind. I enjoy the infinities no doubt, but I think it's more of the showcase of skill and dexterity to keep it up. Once a game reaches a certain age, and all the top level players can do the infinities, that's the only time I start not liking them as much.
I'll put it this way...
In that gif, Akira does a shoulder on Sarah in a juggled state. It only barely registers on her model.
If someone like say Paul were to do a shoulder, or even better a deathfist on an opponent in a juggle state, it would send them flying away and, in the case of deathfist, they'll hit the floor and be forced into rolling back due to the impact momentum of the move. This is far more visually appealing in my opinion.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Ivy can do this in some versions as well, Cervantes comes pretty close. Soul Calibur has plenty of air juggles in general.
That gif is from VF2 which came out in 1994
There are many hit-specific animations in VF
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Why are characters getting stunned after only 4 hits? was Turbo that bad? I was just a child back then, so...
SF2 actually had incredibly cheap shit. People don't know bc that was before.
FallingEdge
Member
Spuck-uk
Banned
Random stun and damage values in earlier versions of SF2..
Spuck-uk
Banned
Yep:
It looks way better at 60fps though.
Jesus, never fails to impress me how ugly this party game is.
FallingEdge
Member
watermelons
Banned
Just don't get hit.
Ragnorok64
Member
There's 9 pages to this thread and I don't have time on my lunch break to read them all. But, has anyone mentioned that part of the awkward animating during juggles is because if the character model ragdolled during a combo it would lead to combo inconsistency?
If a character's mid air hit state remains mostly the same it means the same combo should work on them multiple times. If they are slumping and flipping around mid air your combo string might work once, but then miss a 2nd time for no good reason.
It's hard enough accounting for multiple character's hitbox size, weight, etc. in game without adding extra layers of complication.
If a character's mid air hit state remains mostly the same it means the same combo should work on them multiple times. If they are slumping and flipping around mid air your combo string might work once, but then miss a 2nd time for no good reason.
It's hard enough accounting for multiple character's hitbox size, weight, etc. in game without adding extra layers of complication.
That gif is from VF2 which came out in 1994
There are many hit-specific animations in VF
Yeah, but we're talking about juggle states, not strings with staggers, wall splats, and resplats.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Of course not, people want everyone to be grounded.
watermelons
Banned
In SF 2, with proper fundamentals, spacing frame data understanding, etc your opponent are essentially dead in situations 10 seconds before even getting attacked. It's a very different game than SFV.
https://youtu.be/qxGzs_FAVgM?t=1m18s
Same deal, "juggle state" typically lasts only 1 or 2 hits ever since bounds were added in 5R, and even before then "juggle" combos were very short.
Also don't just look at the wall hits, Brad is reacting to hits in different ways.
Spladam
Member
I have not played the new Killer Instinct, but I assumed they stuck with the traditional RPS combo breaker system, and insanely long ultra combos.
GAF's resident Virtua Fighter expert.i made this gif
eyeball_kid
Member
Obviously I meant that Tekken would have to be rebalanced if juggles were taken out, but it would still be a fun, competitive game without them. I'm not necessarily arguing that they should be taken out, but Tekken is already complex enough tactically that it wouldn't be ruined without them.
Fun? Sure. Drastically less fun? Yes. So what's the point?
Pretty much my feeling for any suggestion of removing combos totally.
You could play chess with one pawn too, and still have a good game perhaps, but it's just removing things without adding things. Removing things without compensation never feels good.
Cutting down on long combos is a different thing though.
roflwaffles
Member
Not gonna lie, this topic has me low key triggered.
bizzarewars
Banned
Juggles are sick. Also, why complain about the unrealistic look of them when you have characters like this doing them?
Idk, it just seems nitpicky to me. Especially when they're mechanically fun as fuck to pull off.
Idk, it just seems nitpicky to me. Especially when they're mechanically fun as fuck to pull off.
Put in some work? Against what, a fast Lee Chaolan launcher? That's all it takes.
Juggles require a launcher and then a memorised input. That's it. They require no branching guesswork because juggles don't allow much in the way for combo breakers from your opponent.
That's the point.
It's not like the 10 hit combo system that they ditched, which could allow for back and forth.
They already did that. It's called Tekken 4 and most people hated it.
The shortness of the juggle is the one saving grace, and the only reason it exists is to make sure that the combos are short. I understand that. I'm just saying that based on the OPs comnents, that is the most butt ugly example.
Also once again, in the context of this thread, your gif doesn't really mean anything. People are talking about straight up juggles. Most 3D games have solid animations for odd angle hits and different hit reactions based on the way the move hits.
Juggle combos are a lot more involved than just memorized input. There's weight, distance, angles, stage obstacles that all need to be taken in account on the fly.
Also the 10 hit combos were horrible. They were just pre-canned strings that could easily be interrupted as long as you knew the gaps.
I don't understand this hate for juggles when they're just a combo, and if you hate combos then just say that.