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[CornBurrito]

Seriously, though. I asked you to lay off me in previous threads. Your snide and antagonistic comments are simply not welcome. If you have something to say, contribute, or argue, then just make your point instead of picking on people or talking shit by suggesting that people should "brush up" on something as if you know what you're talking about but just aren't willing to enlighten the rest of us. It's really just not appreciated or conducive to any kind of constructive discussion.

I'm actually not saying he's definitively wrong on the "ee" "ei" thing. But saying "butter" only has one correct pronunciation and using it as a comparison to Japanese pronunciation rules doesn't actually work, because nobody who studies linguistics in any capacity would say that "butter" has only one true correct pronunciation and that all deviations are wrong. Or that spelling dictates pronunciation. It is true that pronunciation and spelling are pretty much 1 to 1 in Japanese, though it isn't hard to see why. Alphabet vs Syllabary.

Being wrong in one critical area when making an otherwise valid point only makes people disregard your actually valid points.

 

[I'm an expert]

Nevermind, I'm good for now.

 

[Kilrogg]

Kilrogg - people pronounce shit incorrectly in every language all over the world. There are probably 900 different ways people pronounce the word butter. So while I'm definitely not saying people don't shorten sounds or pronounce shit in a colloquial way in Japan, what I was saying was that EE and EI in Japanese are completely different, even if they sound similar in mainstream speech.

I think I see what you're saying, and I agree in the sense that generally speaking, EI can be pronounced "EI" or EE", but EE can only be pronounced "EI", unless what Zefah said it's true. But then, if it is, it tends to prove that, as I was originally saying, there is some overlap between えい and ええ, and possibly おお and おう.

Just so we're clear though: I've been talking about native speakers of Japanese all along obviously, not learners. And while I'm sure some underrepresented regional accent might pronounced EE and EI completely the same all the time (or completely differently all the time), I'm talking about standardized speech. The way your average 標準語 speaker says stuff. Heck, I'm pretty sure there is no difference with the more common varieties of 関西弁. I certainly haven't heard any differences between the way EE/EI and OO/OU are pronounced between people in Tôkyô and 博多弁 speakers from my time in Fukuoka.

Here's an obscure example, 犬猿. If you come across this word in real life, you'll hear people say KE-N-EN, KEN-EN, and KEn-nEN. I guarantee most people in this thread wouldn't even pick up the difference between all 3 if a native person said it.

An example that's not exactly the same but still gets the point across - right now if you're reading this, say out loud the word for cloud, then say the word spider. Go ahead, I'll wait.



If you said them exactly the same, congratulations, you are not a native Japanese person.

This example you gave is probably meant to assess my ear, which I can understand since we don't know each other and you don't know how good/poor my ear is. Rest assured that to me, all three pronunciations are 100% different from one another. I hear the differences, and I can reproduce the differences when I speak. It's not a matter of regionalism, they're just completely different, and like you said, anyone who says 犬猿 any other way than KEN-EN is not a native speaker. You won't find a single native speaker who pronounces it differently unless they a have a serious speech impediment or they have some kind of weird regional version of Japanese that somehow changes the pronounciation of that word. Highly unlikely, if you ask me.

And that's really where I can't fully agree with you: unlike 犬猿, I have, for a fact, heard Japanese people who speak a perfectly natural Japanese, with no speech impediment or weird regional accent, pronounce an えい spelling as ええ. Depends on the word, depends on the person, depends on the way they emphasize the word, sure, but I've heard it from native speakers nonetheless. Multiple times. And I've also heard them pronounce them differently. Just like I do. Depends.

To this day, the single biggest difference I've heard might not even be caused by the spelling, but by the pitch accent, and it doesn't even have anything to do with い vs. え. Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but to me, 先生 is more open than ええ、そうです。 "è" vs. "é". They're different vowels. I don't even think the Japanese themselves realize it, because it's not a relevant distinction in Japanese phonetics, unlike in French for instance.

(It's kinda like if someone said 「おす。」 in a very calm way and then an 応援団 comes along and they all yell 「おす！！」. The latter would be a more open お than the former, but the Japanese wouldn't hear the difference because it's not relevant in Japanese. The French and the Koreans could though, because both our languages have that distinction... Anyway, just rambling at this point.)

I don't want anyone to 'defer' to me on anything because I'm not a native speaker and never will be, but it's not like we haven't earned a tiny, teeny bit of cred.

I know you're responding to CornBurrito, but just so you know: I know when someone know more than me, and it seems to be your case most of the time. Same with Zefah. That's why I "defer" to you guys.

Gacha-pin, if you're around, I'd love your input as a native speaker.

edit: nevermind, apparently Zef replied while I was typing this. wasn't aware of any outside-of-thread beef so maybe it was more directed at Zef then me. yeah. fuck you zef!!

That goes without saying: fuck you, Zef. Like, yeah.

 

[I'm an expert]

Yeah in the end none of the shit I say matters, I ain't Japanese.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm actually not saying he's definitively wrong on the "ee" "ei" thing. But saying "butter" only has one correct pronunciation and using it as a comparison to Japanese pronunciation rules doesn't actually work, because nobody who studies linguistics in any capacity would say that "butter" has only one true correct pronunciation and that all deviations are wrong. Or that spelling dictates pronunciation. It is true that pronunciation and spelling are pretty much 1 to 1 in Japanese, though it isn't hard to see why. Alphabet vs Syllabary.

Being wrong in one critical area when making an otherwise valid point only makes people disregard your actually valid points.

I think you might be putting words in his mouth a bit on this one.

Expert can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's focused on the practical rather than technicalities of what may or may not be considered correct from a purely academic linguistics perspective.

I mean, when I visit my wife's grandparents up in Tohoku, I can maybe understand like 20% of what they're saying. Part of that's their dialect, part of that's just age. My wife can maybe understand 30% if she's lucky (she didn't grow up in the region). That doesn't make any of the Japanese they're speaking incorrect, obviously.

However, when it comes to how the language should be spoken to be understood by a broad range of people (which arguably is the goal of most language learners), the range of what's acceptable becomes much more narrow. Same goes for "butter." In some bumpkin village in Scotland or wherever (just making this up), the older locals might pronounce it as "buggum" or whatever else, and they would be correct in their own locality, but most people on the planet wouldn't have a clue what they're talking about.

 

[CornBurrito]

I think you might be putting words in his mouth a bit on this one.

Expert can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's focused on the practical rather than technicalities of what may or may not be considered correct from a purely academic linguistics perspective.

I mean, when I visit my wife's grandparents up in Tohoku, I can maybe understand like 20% of what they're saying. Part of that's their dialect, part of that's just age. My wife can maybe understand 30% if she's lucky (she didn't grow up in the region). That doesn't make any of the Japanese they're speaking incorrect, obviously.

However, when it comes to how the language should be spoken to be understood by a broad range of people (which arguably is the goal of most language learners), the range of what's acceptable becomes much more narrow. Same goes for "butter." In some bumpkin village in Scotland or wherever (just making this up), the older locals might pronounce it as "buggum" or whatever else, and they would be correct in their own locality, but most people on the planet wouldn't have a clue what they're talking about.

Even considering this, will most Japanese speakers not understand you if you pronounce "ei" as "ee"?

The native Japanese speakers I've encountered certainly didn't have any trouble understanding.

 

[Kilrogg]

Oh shit, more stuff got posted in the meantime. Sorry if I'm reposting, but I feel there's enough new content to warrant a new post.

With that said, and carefully avoiding the beef...

Good stuff. Some other fun ones are bridge (&#27211, edge (&#31471, and chopsticks (&#31672. Or return/go home (帰&#12427 and frog (&#34521.

Examples of words that appear to be homonyms when looking at the text, but actually do not sound exactly the same when pronounced.

I love talking about all of this, but we're talking about very, very different things here.
The HASHI thing is a matter of - you guessed it - pitch accent.
I'm an expert's example is just a case of pronunciation. Not only that, but it's a case of a word having one objectively correct pronunciation, KEN-EN, and everything else being plain mistaken pronunciations that only non-native speakers could make because their ears and/or vocal apparatus aren't tuned to the language well enough.

If pronouncing えい as ええ, etc. were at all common, I would have had a hell of a time looking up new words that I heard spoken by people and on TV, etc. In my early days of studying, I pretty much always had a pocket electronic dictionary within reach, so I could look up any word I didn't understand.

That's always been one of the easier parts of learning Japanese. What you hear is almost always what you get. It must be a nightmare for English learners to try to guess the spelling of a word based off what they heard someone say.

First part I can't say I agree with. I mean, I'm certainly not gonna disagree that it gave YOU an easier time, and again, many times Japanese people will pronounce those sounds differently, but I've still heard えい pronounced ええ often enough to think that there's nothing incorrect or unnatural about that pronunciation. Besides, the fact of the matter is that the ええ and おお spellings, outside of some loan words, are rare enough that they don't get in the way of learning proper spelling anyway.

As you said yourself, in Japanese, "what you hear is almost always what you get." Well, えい and おう might just be two instances where you can make that case IMO: it's almost always, not always. Possibly even the only instances, at least in 標準語. I certainly can't think of another one off the top of my head.

Can anyone LINE Gacha-pin and tell him to get in here fast? :lol

[EDIT]

Yeah in the end none of the shit I say matters, I ain't Japanese.

I just wanna add real quick: even a native speaker might not always be able to give you correct answers on technical stuff. Language awareness is very rare among people in general, especially in languages that are phonetically poor. Japanese has like, 20 phonemes. That's roughly half as much as English or French. That alone can't be good for their ears :lol. However, I'm sure Gacha-pin can give us some sound advice on this.
Getting a good ear is hard, mang.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I love talking about all of this, but we're talking about very, very different things here.
The HASHI thing is a matter of - you guessed it - pitch accent.
I'm an expert's example is just a case of pronunciation. Not only that, but it's a case of a word having one objectively correct pronunciation, KEN-EN, and everything else being plain mistaken pronunciations that only non-native speakers could make because their ears and/or vocal apparatus aren't tuned to the language well enough.

I should've bolded for clarity, but I was responding to his spider/cloud (く&#12418 example.

In terms of the KEN-EN type of pronunciation issue, another interesting (and often-cited) example is 雰囲気（ふんいき）, in which a lot of people pronounce it as ふいんき.

 

[I'm an expert]

Yeah Kilrogg I was saying native Japanese people pronounce kenen different ways. Funiki is a better example. Japanese people mispronouce shit all the time, dog.

 

[CornBurrito]

I should've bolded for clarity, but I was responding to his spider/cloud (く&#12418 example.

In terms of the KEN-EN type of pronunciation issue, another interesting (and often-cited) example is 雰囲気（ふんいき）, in which a lot of people pronounce it as ふいんき.

Isn't spider/cloud still a matter of pitch accent?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Isn't spider/cloud still a matter of pitch accent?

Yes, indeed. It was two separate issues/types of examples: words that appear to be straight homonyms but differ by pitch (spider/cloud), and words that are pronounced in ways that differ from how they are written (KEN-EN, FUN-I-KI).

 

[RangerBAD]

Screw you guys. You'll never stop me from saying Uhrf!

 

[Kilrogg]

Yeah in the end none of the shit I say matters, I ain't Japanese.

I should've bolded for clarity, but I was responding to his spider/cloud (く&#12418 example.

In terms of the KEN-EN type of pronunciation issue, another interesting (and often-cited) example is 雰囲気（ふんいき）, in which a lot of people pronounce it as ふいんき.

Yeah Kilrogg I was saying native Japanese people pronounce kenen different ways. Funiki is a better example. Japanese people mispronouce shit all the time, dog.

Aw shit, missed that, sorry guys. Yeah, they say ふいんき. It's like they don't even jgo or something. A hundred years from now it'll probably be the default pronunciation at this rate.

Didn't know about 犬猿 though, good food for thought. I'll pay more attention to that, cause I can't remember a time when I heard a Japanese person make that kind of pronunciation mistake. Not among fairly educated people at least.

I still think えい as ええ is not inherently weird or incorrect - to use your words: I don't see how it makes you sound like a clown -, especially when virtually every textbook out there says it's a valid pronunciation. The 犬猿 stuff, to me, is more a case of Japanese speakers being lazy with their pronunciations, whereas えい　ええ sounds much more legit. I don't think any textbook or official authority of any kind would say けんねん　or けねん are okay, You would definitely sound like a lazy clown.

@CornBurrito: yeah, it's pitch accent stuff. Weirdly enough, Rikaisama puts it on the first syllable in both cases though. Expert, Zef, how would you pronounce くも in either case? How do the Japanese pronounce them in your experience?

 

[CornBurrito]

Aw shit, missed that, sorry guys. Yeah, they say ふいんき. It's like they don't even jgo or something. A hundred years from now it'll probably be the default pronunciation at this rate

Are we really saying metathesis is incorrect? lol.

Wednesday and iron in English are metathesized. It happens in every language. It isn't mispronounced just because spelling doesn't update.

 

[Kilrogg]

Are we really saying metathesis is incorrect? lol.

Wednesday and iron in English are metathesized. It happens in every language. It isn't mispronounced just because spelling doesn't update.

I was being playful. To me there's an undefinable period of time where a given pronunciation is incorrect, until enough people do it enough times over a long enough period of time for it to become normal.

 

[CornBurrito]

I was being playful. To me there's an undefinable period of time where a given pronunciation is incorrect, until enough people do it enough times over a long enough period of time for it to become normal.

Language is essentially tyranny of the majority to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Are we really saying metathesis is incorrect? lol.

Wednesday and iron in English are metathesized. It happens in every language. It isn't mispronounced just because spelling doesn't update.

It will be considered incorrect until official revisions are made. No big deal in conversations with friends and coworkers, but it takes a long time for these things to universally change.

ふいんき is definitely still considered incorrect in any official capacity, right alongside ら抜き言葉 (見られる　→　見れる, etc.)

I think a cool example of it happening in Japanese is 新しい（あたらしい）, which was original あらたしい. 新 alone is still pronounced as あらた, too.

I was being playful. To me there's an undefinable period of time where a given pronunciation is incorrect, until enough people do it enough times over a long enough period of time for it to become normal.

When everyone's wrong about something, it becomes right!

 

[CornBurrito]

It will be considered incorrect until official revisions are made

By academia and the school system I suppose.

Idk, it might be worth noting the standard/official form. But its also worth letting people know and use the casual form.

 

[Mrmask]

I'm new to this thread and a bit new to learning Japanese. I've started on Hiragana right now and my study method(since I don't know which way to study exactly) is to just write each character down about 15 times and memorizing the sound and character. Is there any tips for memorizing the characters better for Hiragana and Katakana or can someone direct me to a book, website, app or something? If what I'm doing now is a valid method, feel free to tell me as well.

 

[CornBurrito]

I'm new to this thread and a bit new to learning Japanese. I've started on Hiragana right now and my study method(since I don't know which way to study exactly) is to just write each character down about 15 times and memorizing the sound and character. Is there any tips for memorizing the characters better for Hiragana and Katakana or can someone direct me to a book, website, app or something? If what I'm doing now is a valid method, feel free to tell me as well.

I kind of think just brute forcing it works for learning the kana. You're just speeding up what you did for the English alphabet back in kindergarten. Write them too.

 

[Kilrogg]

When everyone's wrong about something, it becomes right!

Haha, well, as Corn pointed out, that's pretty much how language seems to be working yeah. At least for insignificant stuff like metathesis, that is. Obviously "their" will never be correct where "there" should be used because it fucks up with the fundamental grammatical laws of English.

 

[CornBurrito]

Haha, well, as Corn pointed out, that's pretty much how language seems to be working yeah. At least for insignificant stuff like metathesis, that is. Obviously "their" will never be correct where "there" should be used because it fucks up with the fundamental grammatical laws of English.

I mean written language itself is an entirely different beast. Since it isn't natural in the same way spoken language is. The wrong "there" is just an issue of spelling.

 

[Aizo]

I should've posted earlier, but wasn't sure how long that discussion would go on. My good friend is a native Japanese speaker doing his masters at Waseda in Japanese linguistics, and he said this, "Sounds like おう tend to become a long vowel おお, but in careful speech they are pronounced as おう.
cf. Underlying representation

I would say that normally people would pronounce it as a long vowel though."

I would probably be inclined to trust this opinion. I pronounce えい and ええ very slightly differently, though.

It's just like I pronounce the ん differently in some words. What's interesting about that is 北海道方言 seems to pretty much only pronounce those with the tongue, similar to many non native speakers' accent. I imagine some of you pronounce ん in some parts of words with the back of your throat without even thinking about it; that's the case for my Tokyo dialect friends.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I certainly wouldn't agree that written language is any less "natural" than spoken language.

 

[PreyingShark]

I should've posted earlier, but wasn't sure how long that discussion would go on. My good friend is a native Japanese speaker doing his masters at Waseda in Japanese linguistics, and he said this, "Sounds like おう tend to become a long vowel おお, but in careful speech they are pronounced as おう.
cf. Underlying representation

I would say that normally people would pronounce it as a long vowel though."

I would probably be inclined to trust this opinion. I pronounce えい and ええ very slightly differently, though.

It's probably like how I say cot and caught virtually the same when talking casually but in careful speech, like for a class or something, I say them very distinctly. Like, there are three levels of the cot-caught merger: People who always say them distinctly, people who always say them the same, and people in the middle like myself.

 

[Mrmask]

I kind of think just brute forcing it works for learning the kana. You're just speeding up what you did for the English alphabet back in kindergarten. Write them too.

So, what I am currently doing is a fine method? Any quiz to see how well I retained the info to make sure I can move on?

 

[Gacha-pin]

こーいう（笑）説明はどう？
http://shouyouki.web.fc2.com/tyouon.htm

 

[CornBurrito]

I should've posted earlier, but wasn't sure how long that discussion would go on. My good friend is a native Japanese speaker doing his masters at Waseda in Japanese linguistics, and he said this, "Sounds like おう tend to become a long vowel おお, but in careful speech they are pronounced as おう.
cf. Underlying representation

I would say that normally people would pronounce it as a long vowel though."

I would probably be inclined to trust this opinion. I pronounce えい and ええ very slightly differently, though.

It's just like I pronounce the ん differently in some words. What's interesting about that is 北海道方言 seems to pretty much only pronounce those with the tongue, similar to many non native speakers' accent. I imagine some of you pronounce ん in some parts of words with the back of your throat without even thinking about it; that's the case for my Tokyo dialect friends.

You might say EI and EE slightly differently, to your ears. Do native Japanese speakers actually say them/hear them differently? I'm curious.

 

[urfe]

I'd pronounce Ken-en as Ken-yen.

Only way I can be understood in such situations.

Also, never realized that about 雰囲気. Will have to pay attention.

Simple things is how すみません will become すいません or すんません.

An ei/ee example is how 携帯 (as in cell phone) gets katakanaized into ケータイ.

To me it's honestly just if the KE is emphasized, then the I almost gets swallowed, but if the stress is on the I in a word, they are most definitely not the same.

But, I'm not an expert.

ps: I pronounce 靴下 as ktsshta.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Question for the experts: When you say 精一杯 do you actually make two back to back い sounds in the middle?

 

[Oare]

Question for the experts: When you say 精一杯 do you actually make two back to back い sounds in the middle?

No.

As for the debate regarding the differences in pronunciation between えい and ええ, おう and おお, I'd say there is definitely a slight difference when speaking naturally, but this difference is neither conscious nor acknowledged, so it has no impact and the resulting sounds are considered interchangeable.

There is a very common early elementary school exercise that underlines exactly that: children are given a bunch of words containing long vowels with a blank they have to fill in correctly, like this:
お＿かみ
がっこ＿

It's not rare to see them pick the wrong answer.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think it's largely a matter of position and pitch accent. There are many instances where I do hear a difference, but I'm not sure I hear the difference between 法務 and ホーム for instance. To me, they do sound exactly the same, and I'm inclined to believe it's because the words are otherwise identical, even down to the pitch accent (first syllable) if Rikaisama is to be believed. The two people in Rikaisama even pronounce both the same way. Maybe some Japanese people would pronounce those differently, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think they would ALL do that ALL the time.

How do they sound different to you? If you could record yourself saying them I'd appreciate it.

Missed this part from yesterday. 法務 is a word that often comes up at work, so I'm quite familiar with it. I just spoke it to myself a whole bunch (both alone and in sentences) and I still think there is a slight difference when compared to ホーム (as in the platform at a train station). I may be wrong of course, and the difference I'm perceiving is so subtle that it's probably not worth noting. I may try to record it so you and others can compare. I'll have to track down that site you linked me to a few years ago when we were doing recordings earlier in this thread.

They do. Many people whose native language is stress-based (e.g. English, German) will have a problem wrapping their heads around the rhythm, length and pronunciation of Japanese vowels. By contrast, French speakers for instance tend to have an easier time with that. I should know, I'm one of them.

Interesting analysis! I've never met a native French speaker who had become proficient enough in Japanese to be indistinguishable from a native Japanese speaker, but I also haven't really met a lot of native French speakers who also study Japanese...

When you say 精一杯 do you actually make two back to back い sounds in the middle?

Not in the sense that I'm saying せ・い・いっぱい, but せい・いっぱい (say-ippai)? Absolutely. With that said, it's certainly not uncommon to hear せえいっぱい (seh-ippai).

Weirdly enough, Rikaisama puts it on the first syllable in both cases though. Expert, Zef, how would you pronounce くも in either case? How do the Japanese pronounce them in your experience?

Interesting! I hadn't looked it up before, but it does seem like the NHK standard is 【￣ク＿モ】 for both. In my experience, it's always been 【￣ク＿モ】 (accent on &#12463 for 雲(cloud) and 【＿ク￣モ】 (accent on &#12514 for 蜘蛛(spider). I spent a lot of time in Kansai and initially started learning Japanese there, but I've also spent a ton of time in the Tokyo area, and this has always been my understanding of it. Seems like it varies. Either way, context will probably dictate which one appears in the listeners mind when you say it.

 

[Kilrogg]

こーいう（笑）説明はどう？
http://shouyouki.web.fc2.com/tyouon.htm

ワロた。
後で読んでみようかな。

No.

As for the debate regarding the differences in pronunciation between えい and ええ, おう and おお, I'd say there is definitely a slight difference when speaking naturally, but this difference is neither conscious nor acknowledged, so it has no impact and the resulting sounds are considered interchangeable.

There is a very common early elementary school exercise that underlines exactly that: children are given a bunch of words containing long vowels with a blank they have to fill in correctly, like this:
お＿かみ
がっこ＿

It's not rare to see them pick the wrong answer.

Interesting. Is that exercice based on hearing though?

Missed this part from yesterday. 法務 is a word that often comes up at work, so I'm quite familiar with it. I just spoke it to myself a whole bunch (both alone and in sentences) and I still think there is a slight difference when compared to ホーム (as in the platform at a train station). I may be wrong of course, and the difference I'm perceiving is so subtle that it's probably not worth noting. I may try to record it so you and others can compare. I'll have to track down that site you linked me to a few years ago when we were doing recordings earlier in this thread.

Please do. Trust, me I can be super anal about that stuff, so there is no such thing as "probably not worth noting" in my book when it comes to pronunciation. If there is any difference at all, no matter how small, I want to know it, and I want to be able to hear it.

And holy crap, you still remember that thread I made (was it a thread? I can't even remember :lol). I probably recommended http://vocaroo.com/ (for a second there I thought the robot was Gacha-pin's avatar...). To he honest though, the sound quality is complete ass, even today. Don't use it.

Testing a couple similar websites, SpeakPipe seems to be decent: https://www.speakpipe.com/voice-recorder

Or try Soundcloud instead, if you don't mind creating a (free) account. It's got the best sound quality of all these sites: https://soundcloud.com/

Interesting analysis! I've never met a native French speaker who had become proficient enough in Japanese to be indistinguishable from a native Japanese speaker, but I also haven't really met a lot of native French speakers who also study Japanese...

I've never met one either, but I've met people who speak it really well - heck, one of my best friends is now a regular on 所さんの日本の出番. I myself am not too shabby when it comes to the accent and pronunciation, especially if you just ask me to recite a text and give me some time to prepare.

For all our advantages learning Japanese, we still suck at languages in general. Even in 2016, you're still pretty much seen as a god if you're even half-decent at English over here (and/or a pretentious asshole... We don't like people who are good at languages).

Not in the sense that I'm saying せ・い・いっぱい, but せい・いっぱい (say-ippai)? Absolutely. With that said, it's certainly not uncommon to hear せえいっぱい (seh-ippai).

I tend to say it せえいっぱい.

 

[CornBurrito]

My ears still suck at picking up the difference between ae and ai.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

So, what I am currently doing is a fine method? Any quiz to see how well I retained the info to make sure I can move on?

There are dozens, just search for "kana quiz" or some variation.

Really though, just keep drilling them every day (at least write out the whole table once, don't skip days or you're hurting yourself) and move ahead with your textbook or whatever else you're using. Mastery will come with time, and until you get at least some basic grammar and vocab down you won't be able to do anything meaningful with the characters you're learning.

If you're using Genki (which is generally regarded as the best of the textbooks for beginners), you might want to set an initial pace of two weeks per chapter, and aim to be "done" with hiragana and katakana by the time you enter lesson 3, which is when the book weans you off romaji. If you don't have Genki, I'd recommend http://www.imabi.net/ over any other free resources I've seen.

こーいう（笑）説明はどう？
http://shouyouki.web.fc2.com/tyouon.htm

適切な部分はこっち：

混乱を避けるために現代仮名づかいの方針を貫くとすれば、オ段の長音のすべてを外来語と同じように「－」で示せばよい。しかし、その場合、「行使」「高利」は「こーし」「こーり」でいいが、「子牛」「小売り」は「こうし」「こうり」と書かなければならない。「物音」も「ものーと」とは書けない。語源意識が働くので、実際にも長音として発音している人は少ないであろう。

「えい」・「ええ」・「エー」について部分がないけど、同じような方針がある気がする。

 

[Kilrogg]

適切な部分はこっち：

「えい」・「ええ」・「エー」について部分がないけど、同じような方針がある気がする。

こういう場合は確かに賛成するしかないと思うけど、今までの話とまたちょっと違うね。今の話はつまり「あいまいさ」を避けるための発音の区別のことだ。しかし、Zefahたちの話では、どんな場合でも「おう・おお」と「えい・ええ」という発音は若干区別できる／区別したほうがいいということ・・・でしょうね、Zefah？
（俺にはどっちでもいいけどｗ。）

ちなみに俺、日本語久しぶりなので、どうぞ過ちを訂正してくださいね。

 

[TheSporkWithin]

So I went to look up a pitch-accent in my denshi jisho and had a major facepalm moment. It covers this stuff in the appendices to the NHK accent dictionary.

エ段に続くイ

ケイケン【経験】、セイカク【正確】、などのエ段音に続くイは、特に改まって一音一音明確に言う場合には、イと発音されるが、日常自然の発音では長音になる。すなわち、
改まった場合は【経験】→「ケイケン」
自然な発音では【経験】→「ケーケン」
となる。
…(stuff about the entry format)
ただし、イの前に、意義の切れ目がある場合には長音とはならない。
例：テイレ【手入れ】（＝て＋いれ）

According to the NHK, おう, おお and おー are identical. Also according to the NHK, えい is identical to えー in natural speech, but becomes differentiable when someone is speaking with (forced) formality. You might compare it to overpronouncing the "wh" in "what".

 

[Kilrogg]

So I went to look up a pitch-accent in my denshi jisho and had a major facepalm moment. It covers this stuff in the appendices to the NHK accent dictionary.



According to the NHK, おう, おお and おー are identical. Also according to the NHK, えい is identical to えー in natural speech, but becomes differentiable when someone is speaking with (forced) formality. You might compare it to overpronouncing the "wh" in "what".

Good stuff, man. That's certainly closer to my intuition and experience.
I'm just not sure you would sound that formal if you dared subtly saying the い／え. Obviously if you really emphasized them the way you would in　手入れ, then yeah, it would be weird.

 

[shanshan310]

For えい and ええ, I've always seen them as being a pretty different but in casual conversation the い just tends to drop and end up elongated.

but these sounds:

Something that ends in お and is followed by を.

are pretty distinct.

I'm new to this thread and a bit new to learning Japanese. I've started on Hiragana right now and my study method(since I don't know which way to study exactly) is to just write each character down about 15 times and memorizing the sound and character. Is there any tips for memorizing the characters better for Hiragana and Katakana or can someone direct me to a book, website, app or something? If what I'm doing now is a valid method, feel free to tell me as well.

I learned them originally by associating them with other things, kind of in a similar vein to the heisig method mentioned in the OP (don't look at that yet though, that's a way away). It makes it really easy to remember. Eg.

I just used printouts that my tutor gave me and those disappeared long ago so I don't have any references to recommend sadly, but if you're interested I'm sure you can find some good ones online.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

The NHK doesn't make the distinction of casual/formal, but of "natural" (日常自&#28982 versus "especially uptight and pronouncing each syllable individually" (特に改まって一音一音明確に言う場&#21512.

They're probably just morons who can't hear the difference though.

On a different note, registrations are open for the Summer JLPT. Who's taking it? I'm gunning for N2 and feeling pretty confident on reading comprehension and listening. Gotta keep expanding my vocab and polishing my grammar though.

 

[Kilrogg]

The NHK doesn't make the distinction of casual/formal, but of "natural" (日常自&#28982 versus "especially uptight and pronouncing each syllable individually" (特に改まって一音一音明確に言う場&#21512.

They're probably just morons who can't hear the difference though.

On a different note, registrations are open for the Summer JLPT. Who's taking it? I'm gunning for N2 and feeling pretty confident on reading comprehension and listening. Gotta keep expanding my vocab and polishing my grammar though.

About the bolded: dude, you can't look up pitch accents in the NHK dictionary and then dismiss them as morons ... But yeah, it's a possibility. Or they're just emphasizing two extremes, who knows. It basically sounds like they're saying "if you spell out the word letter by letter, then you will sound like a robot". No shit, Sherurokku.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

About the bolded: dude, you can't look up pitch accents in the NHK dictionary and then dismiss them as morons ... But yeah, it's a possibility. Or they're just emphasizing two extremes, who knows. It basically sounds like they're saying "if you spell out the word letter by letter, then you will sound like a robot". No shit, Sherurokku.

It was a callback. I don't usually do emoticons so sometimes my tone is unclear ;-)

 

[Kilrogg]

It was a callback. I don't usually do emoticons so sometimes my tone is unclear ;-)

Ah gotcha. I got the callback, but I thought you were genuinely taking after I'm an expert, in the hopes that senpai would notice you.

 

[Beckx]

To elaborate a bit, what I did was set up a deck in Anki using the book as a basis. For the front of each card I showed an English keyword (usually Heisig's, though I freely changed things up when I felt more appropriate words existed), and a few Japanese keywords written in hiragana with the section of the word that is represented by this kanji bolded. I always used at least two keywords, trying to find ones that used onyomi and kunyomi, and which would serve as good references for what the kanji typically represents. The back side had the kanji, the stroke order, the "primitives" used in the character (which I renamed quite a lot of) and a mnemonic story. As time went on I didn't really use the mnemonics so much, and now, of course, I never even think of them.

For example, the keywords for 奮 had the heisig keyword of "stirred up," along with the Japanese keywords of ふる•う・ふんとう・こうふん. 患 had "aflicted" from Heisig, and then わずら•う・かんじゃ from me. Each time I made a card I'd draw first from words I knew, but I'd look up words and try to find ones that seemed common or useful as well.

just wanted to say thanks for this. i finished RTK a few months ago and have been learning readings through vocab, but now incorporating this into my review deck as well.

 

[GYODX]

格確較拡攪撹塙擴淵渊渕

I've wondered for a long time whether the fact that all of these Kanji have both 「カク」and 「コウ」as their 音読み readings bears any relation to the sound change found in ありがたく→ありがとう, はやく→はよう→おはよう, めでたく→めでとう→おめでとう, etc.

I compiled a list of some of these little tendencies I've noticed. No hard and fast rules, just general guidelines that could take some of the mystery out of Kanji with multiple 音読み.

● Kanji with an 音読み ending in あ段＋く tend to have an equivalent 音読み ending in お段＋う, in a pattern closely corresponding to the sound change found in ありがたく→ありがとう .
摸【マク・モウ】
格【カク・コウ】
確【カク・コウ】
較【カク・コウ】
拡【カク・コウ】
攪【カク・コウ】
撹【カク・コウ】
塙【カク・コウ】
擴【カク・コウ】
淵【カク・コウ】
渊【カク・コウ】
渕【カク・コウ】
楽【ガク・ゴウ】
樂【ガク・ゴウ】
啅【タク・トウ】
棹【タク・トウ】
櫂【タク・トウ】
瀑【ハク・ホウ】
鞄【ハク・ホウ】
遡【サク・ソ】
做【サク・ソ】
愬【サク・ソ】
胙【サク・ソ】
溯【サク・ソ】
嫋【ジャク・ジョウ】
堊【アク・オ】
悪【アク・オ】
惡【アク・オ】
瀑【バク・ボウ】
皃【バク・ボウ】
貌【バク・ボウ】
暴【バク・ボウ】
莫【バク・ボ】

● Kanji with the 音読み セキ tend to also have the 音読み シャク or ジャク. Sometimes シュク or シャ.
勣【セキ・シャク】
昔【セキ・シャク】
晰【セキ・シャク】
蜥【セキ・シャク】
石【セキ・シャク】
皙【セキ・シャク】
赤【セキ・シャク】
蹟【セキ・シャク】
迹【セキ・シャク】
釈【セキ・シャク】
釋【セキ・シャク】
錫【セキ・シャク】
齣【セキ・シャク】
寂【セキ・ジャク】
瘠【セキ・ジャク】
簀【セキ・ジャク】
鉐【セキ・ジャク】
藉【セキ・シャ・ジャク】
舍【セキ・シャ】
舎【セキ・シャ】
炙【セキ・シャ】
槭【セキ・シュク】
蹙【セキ・シュク】

● Kanji with 音読み that start with な行 sounds tend to have a だ行 equivalent.
奈【ナイ・ダイ】
迺【ナイ・ダイ】
乃【ナイ・ダイ】
内【ナイ・ダイ】
儺【ナ・ダ】
娜【ナ・ダ】
拏【ナ・ダ】
拿【ナ・ダ】
梛【ナ・ダ】
糯【ナ・ダ】
那【ナ・ダ】
捺【ナツ・ダツ】
衲【ノウ・ドウ】
膿【ノウ・ドウ】
腦【ノウ・ドウ】
脳【ノウ・ドウ】
曩【ノウ・ドウ】
嚢【ノウ・ドウ】
儂【ノウ・ドウ】
二【ニ・ジ】
児【ニ・ジ】
兒【ニ・ジ】
尓【ニ・ジ】
岻【ニ・ジ】
弍【ニ・ジ】
弐【ニ・ジ】
爾【ニ・ジ】
而【ニ・ジ】
膩【ニ・ジ】
貮【ニ・ジ】
貳【ニ・ジ】
迩【ニ・ジ】
邇【ニ・ジ】
餌【ニ・ジ】

● Kanji with 音読み that start with ま行 sounds tend to have a ば行 equivalent. This might be the same sound change seen in 寂しい【さみしい・さびしい】and 寒い【さむい・さぶい】.
痲【マ・バ】
蟆【マ・バ】
蟇【マ・バ】
麼【マ・バ、ミ・ビ】
弥【ミ・ビ】
弭【ミ・ビ】
彌【ミ・ビ】
未【ミ・ビ】
瀰【ミ・ビ】
眉【ミ・ビ】
美【ミ・ビ】
靡【ミ・ビ】
縻【ミ・ビ】
妙【ミョウ・ビョウ】
平【ミョウ・ビョウ】
廟【ミョウ・ビョウ】
杪【ミョウ・ビョウ】
眇【ミョウ・ビョウ】
緲【ミョウ・ビョウ】
苗【ミョウ・ビョウ】
謬【ミョウ・ビョウ】
錨【ミョウ・ビョウ】
亡【モウ・ボウ】
儚【モウ・ボウ】
卯【モウ・ボウ】
妄【モウ・ボウ】
孟【モウ・ボウ】
帽【モウ・ボウ】
忙【モウ・ボウ】
惘【モウ・ボウ】
旄【モウ・ボウ】
望【モウ・ボウ】
朦【モウ・ボウ】
髦【モウ・ボウ】
蠎【モウ・ボウ】
蟒【モウ・ボウ】
蒙【モウ・ボウ】
莽【モウ・ボウ】
芒【モウ・ボウ】
艨【モウ・ボウ】
耄【モウ・ボウ】
罔【モウ・ボウ】
网【モウ・ボウ】
矇【モウ・ボウ】
瑁【モウ・ボウ】
姆【モ・ボ】
姥【モ・ボ】
媽【モ・ボ】
摸【モ・ボ】
模【モ・ボ】
糢【モ・ボ】
莫【モ・ボ】
謨【モ・ボ】

● Kanji with 音読み that start with サ行 tend to have シャ行 equivalent.
且【ソ・ショ】
俎【ソ・ショ】
咀【ソ・ショ】
岨【ソ・ショ】
杵【ソ・ショ】
砠【ソ・ショ】
疽【ソ・ショ】
疏【ソ・ショ】
疎【ソ・ショ】
疋【ソ・ショ】
狙【ソ・ショ】
爼【ソ・ショ】
沮【ソ・ショ】
楚【ソ・ショ】
胥【ソ・ショ】
苴【ソ・ショ】
蔬【ソ・ショ】
蛆【ソ・ショ】
詛【ソ・ショ】
踈【ソ・ショ】
鋤【ソ・ショ】
鼡【ソ・ショ】
齟【ソ・ショ】
剏【ソウ・ショウ】
創【ソウ・ショウ】
剿【ソウ・ショウ】
叟【ソウ・ショウ】
妝【ソウ・ショウ】
捜【ソウ・ショウ】
搜【ソウ・ショウ】
搶【ソウ・ショウ】
甥【ソウ・ショウ】
甑【ソウ・ショウ】
獎【ソウ・ショウ】
奬【ソウ・ショウ】
廂【ソウ・ショウ】
庄【ソウ・ショウ】
將【ソウ・ショウ】
将【ソウ・ショウ】
槍【ソウ・ショウ】
稍【ソウ・ショウ】
些【サ・シャ】
叉【サ・シャ】
嗟【サ・シャ】
娑【サ・シャ】
左【サ・シャ】
沙【サ・シャ】
裟【サ・シャ】
莎【サ・シャ】
鯊【サ・シャ】

● Kanji with the 音読み リク tend to also have the 音読み ロク.
陸【リク・ロク】
戮【リク・ロク】
六【リク・ロク】

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Please do. Trust, me I can be super anal about that stuff, so there is no such thing as "probably not worth noting" in my book when it comes to pronunciation. If there is any difference at all, no matter how small, I want to know it, and I want to be able to hear it.

Or try Soundcloud instead, if you don't mind creating a (free) account. It's got the best sound quality of all these sites: https://soundcloud.com/

Sorry for taking so long and apologies for the background noise. I do not have a good recording set up at all and my home is rarely quiet...

エー/エイ
https://soundcloud.com/zefah/ee-ei2

ホウ/ホー
https://soundcloud.com/zefah/hou-hoo-1

Honestly, I'm not even really confident about the ホウ/ホー one anymore. I still feel like there's a difference, but I don't think I did a great job in my recording. The ホー words feel a bit forced even to me...

(and man, it's weird to hear my own voice recorded)

 

[Kilrogg]

Sorry for taking so long and apologies for the background noise. I do not have a good recording set up at all and my home is rarely quiet...

エー/エイ
https://soundcloud.com/zefah/ee-ei2

ホウ/ホー
https://soundcloud.com/zefah/hou-hoo-1

Honestly, I'm not even really confident about the ホウ/ホー one anymore. I still feel like there's a difference, but I don't think I did a great job in my recording. The ホー words feel a bit forced even to me...

(and man, it's weird to hear my own voice recorded)

Thanks a ton for going through the trouble, man.

First off, your accent is great. Certainly good enough that I can barely hear that you're not a native speaker. In fact, most of it sounds entirely natural to me. Your vocal placement in particular sounds really good to me, better than mine at least - placement has always been my blind spot, even in English.

About ホウ/ホー: yeah, I'm not hearing any difference, sorry. Or if there is any, it tends to be because of the word’s pitch accent, the way I look at it.

As for えい/ええ, I've got to be honest: I don't really hear a difference either. In fact, you're gonna hate me for this, but in the very last thing you said in the recording, ステージに立つ, you actually said て・い even though it's テー .

Just for the heck of it, I recorded the same phrases as you, the way I would say them. Tell me if you find any difference betweenえい and ええ in my pronunciation, cause I guarantee you I’m saying them the same way.

https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/ei-ee

For おう/おお, I’ve taken a few clips from a Natsume Sôseki short story narrated by a Japanese man. Though it’s mostly おう words, tell me if they sound different compared to おお words to you.

https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/xuzfwqbffpnb

Also, yeah, it definitely feels weird to listen to oneself when you’re not used to it, especially if you have a low-end microphone that doesn’t record the full spectrum of your voice. You get used to it after a while. Everyone hates their voice at first, and I was no exception. Now it’s fine, but I had to get over that to practice voice acting.

 

[Porcile]

sexy Zefah voice O_O

 

[Kilrogg]

sexy Zefah voice O_O

I know right! I mean ARE YOU SAYING MINE'S NOT?

ARE YOU?

 

[RangerBAD]

Thanks a ton for going through the trouble, man.

First off, your accent is great. Certainly good enough that I can barely hear that you're not a native speaker. In fact, most of it sounds entirely natural to me. Your vocal placement in particular sounds really good to me, better than mine at least - placement has always been my blind spot, even in English.

About ホウ/ホー: yeah, I'm not hearing any difference, sorry. Or if there is any, it tends to be because of the word’s pitch accent, the way I look at it.

As for えい/ええ, I've got to be honest: I don't really hear a difference either. In fact, you're gonna hate me for this, but in the very last thing you said in the recording, ステージに立つ, you actually said て・い even though it's テー .

Just for the heck of it, I recorded the same phrases as you, the way I would say them. Tell me if you find any difference betweenえい and ええ in my pronunciation, cause I guarantee you I’m saying them the same way.

https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/ei-ee

For おう/おお, I’ve taken a few clips from a Natsume Sôseki short story narrated by a Japanese man. Though it’s mostly おう words, tell me if they sound different compared to おお words to you.

https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/xuzfwqbffpnb

Also, yeah, it definitely feels weird to listen to oneself when you’re not used to it, especially if you have a low-end microphone that doesn’t record the full spectrum of your voice. You get used to it after a while. Everyone hates their voice at first, and I was no exception. Now it’s fine, but I had to get over that to practice voice acting.

You sound like the guy who does all the Tobira recordings.