• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The White Man's (New) Burden

  • Thread starter Deleted member 47027
  • Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.

OnPoint

Member
I say this as a white male, full disclosure. My mother did her part to help change the world by raising me the way she did. She raised me to be open-minded of cultures that aren't my own, and to not judge people by the color of their skin whether it be similar to mine or different. As someone who lives every day as subscribed to and dialed in as possible these ideals (I have gotten into fights with friends or others who use words and terms they shouldn't), I find it incredibly frustrating that the argument is being made to justify that people should be judged by the color of their skin. It's the classic "two wrongs don't make a right" situation.

Spoken like a true white male, I'm sure. I know that nothing I'm saying now, or have said in the past can erase the horrible things that have happened over the course of history. And the societal privilege I'm lumped into having (the other side of the coin presented in the paragraph above) is as unfair as can be. All I can do is live my life in a way that promotes equality despite color or race and hope that whatever small impact it makes will someday add to a potential greater good down the line.

So while I find it frustrating that the actions of others of "my kind" are potentially causing a detriment to me through their actions, I'm going to continue doing what I can to live in a way that doesn't perpetuate what others are doing. I can't understand why it's so hard for people as a whole to do that -- it doesn't take me a huge amount of effort to not be an asshole.
 

Risible

Member
Uhh, no. He's saying that's the reality of the matter, not that they SHOULD be. You're completely misunderstanding him. Read his last paragraph
[/B].

Ahhhh, I think I'm starting to see it now. I get what I'm missing. Finally sunk in. Well, I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer :).
 
The idea that white people are assumed racist/homophobes/sexist is flawed, especially in comparison to what minorities are assumed as since white people are the majority in the country. Sounds like he's projecting his feelings of white males onto everyone.

These assumptions are often not made by people of your race so for a white person it's fairly easy, much more so than for minorities, to live in a city or part of a city where you mostly encounter people of your same race (including those in authority positions) and therefore rarely have to deal with this new proposed 'burden'.

No one should have to carry a weight like that, but I'd say this new weight on the backs of american Caucasians is a pebble and more on the level of losing the advantage of being assumed to be a 'good' person solely based on being white, which I'm not convinced is going away.
 

Ultrabum

Member
I think I agree with a lot of this.

White males are assumed to be racist/bigots until proven otherwise.

How does a white male prove they are not racist?

I have black friends- lol
I love black culture- lol
I dated a black girl once- lol
I have never once said a racial slur- lol

There are no words, actions, or evidence that can prove someone is not a racist. There are only words, actions, and evidence that can prove someone IS a racist.

I think that makes innocent until proven guilty a pretty shitty situation.
 

Dali

Member
Not sure I agree. Nearly every example of an asshole being accused of being a racist piece of shit he used has a history of being a racist piece of shit. They weren't getting they benefit not because they were white men but because they didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'll agree with that, but what this means is that this will never go away, correct? Until the majority becomes the minority and the roles reverse and then we'll just have it the opposite way. And so on ad infinitum. Maybe it's a realistic way of looking at it but it sure is a depressing one.

You are 100% correct. Life can be depressing sometimes.
 

Ties

Banned
I think I agree with a lot of this.

White males are assumed to be racist/bigots until proven otherwise.

How does a white male prove they are not racist?

I have black friends- lol
I love black culture- lol
I dated a black girl once- lol
I have never once said a racial slur- lol

There are no words, actions, or evidence that can prove someone is not a racist. There are only words, actions, and evidence that can prove someone IS a racist.

I think that makes innocent until proven guilty a pretty shitty situation.
hmm

what the article is saying makes a lot of sense when framed from this perspective
 
I'll agree with that, but what this means is that this will never go away, correct? Until the majority becomes the minority and the roles reverse and then we'll just have it the opposite way. And so on ad infinitum. Maybe it's a realistic way of looking at it but it sure is a depressing one.

QFT
Exactly the way I see it.
 
I think I agree with a lot of this.

White males are assumed to be racist/bigots until proven otherwise.

How does a white male prove they are not racist?

I have black friends- lol
I love black culture- lol
I dated a black girl once- lol
I have never once said a racial slur- lol

There are no words, actions, or evidence that can prove someone is not a racist. There are only words, actions, and evidence that can prove someone IS a racist.

I think that makes innocent until proven guilty a pretty shitty situation.

This kind of thinking comes off as some type of paranoia though. Most people don't slap the racism tag onto anyone and everyone willy nilly. Anthony Cumia (mentioned in the article) said racist things for years. While he was labelled (a label I doubt he or his close friends would argue he doesn't deserve), I don't think everyone is labeled as such until it's apparent.

Basically at worst people don't know if you are or are not a racist, and only give you that label once you earn it. So while you may feel you can never prove you're not a racist, if you're not a racist, it can't proven that you are. You're fear or discomfort with not being able to avoid the label seem unfounded if you're honestly not deserving of the descriptor.
 

theJohann

Member
I think a lot of people are misconstruing the point of this blog post. It is not saying that preconceived notions should be applied to white people, it is saying they are being and will be applied to white people.

I can see why the misunderstanding is occurring, as the hostile tone of it and the general way the post was framed did initially make me raise an eyebrow. Furthermore, the final sentence may be perceived as threatening. Scanning through it, however, I cannot find a single normative sentence, i.e. this is the way it should be, and I interpret "And now, it is yours as well." to mean, "Now that you are aware of how others perceive you, work on making a change".

I think it is a great message to end with, as well, because it is likely that very few white people would ever have reason to be aware of these stigmas and presumptions. Every group carries preconceived notions, but not all of them suffer for it. There are simply not enough direct consequences to being a racist, misogynist, homophobe, and so on. While most minorities are, as the final paragraph states, forcefully made aware of these by the structural prejudice of society, the privileged can remain ignorant throughout their lives, undisturbed.

I see this blog post as a sort of wake up call, and I hope that more will realise it does not condone profiling so much as shine a spotlight on it from a new (to most) perspective.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Not sure I agree. Nearly every example of an asshole being accused of being a racist piece of shit he used has a history of being a racist piece of shit. They weren't getting they benefit not because they were white men but because they didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

You joking right Dali?
 

Infinite

Member
I think a lot of people are misconstruing the point of this blog post. It is not saying that preconceived notions should be applied to white people, it is saying they are being and will be applied to white people.

I can see why the misunderstanding is occurring, as the hostile tone of it and the general way the post was framed did initially make me raise an eyebrow. Furthermore, the final sentence may be perceived as threatening. Scanning through it, however, I cannot find a single normative sentence, i.e. this is the way it should be, and I interpret "And now, it is yours as well." to mean, "Now that you are aware of how others perceive you, work on making a change".

I think it is a great message to end with, as well, because it is likely that very few white people would ever have reason to be aware of these stigmas and presumptions. Every group carries preconceived notions, but not all of them suffer for it. There are simply not enough direct consequences to being a racist, misogynist, homophobe, and so on. While most minorities are, as the final paragraph states, forcefully made aware of these by the structural prejudice of society, the privileged can remain ignorant throughout their lives, undisturbed.

I see this blog post as a sort of wake up call, and I hope that more will realise it does not condone profiling so much as shine a spotlight on it from a new (to most) perspective.

Excellent post
 
Another thing about being labelled a homophobe/racist/sexist even if you make it very clear that you're a complete asshole in regards to gender/race etc issues you will still have a support group of people questioning "but is he/she really racist/sexist/homophobic"

Ex. Anthony Cumia thread, Chick-fil-a supporter rallies.
 

Timeaisis

Member
It has been the reality for many populations the whole time. Is the fact that it is now beginning to be applied to so-called unassuming white males what bothers you?

It's a problem if it's applied to anyone, regardless of race, gender or creed. The fact that it's OK because it's happening to everyone and everwhere bothers me the most. Like we are supposed to just accept this world we live in where we should all just generalize and stereotype each other and assume every person of group X is Y (especially if we are assuming something bad). The fact is, people shouldn't be assumed to be something just because they fall into some racial, ethical or social category.
 
I personally don't feel burdened by other people's misconceptions about me - in fact I'm not even aware of them most of the time.

If it was the article's intention to foster negativity, it failed.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
To you and to others who disagree with the article: as white men, what's your objection to not being a dick?

Seriously. That's all it takes. To wipe away these preconceptions and make people not suspicious of you, all a white guy has to do is not be a dick.

I'd say it's a lot easier than the other examples he listed that minorities and women have to do (actively monitor oneself to not become a 'bad example,' or not do anything that could be interpreted as 'inviting').

I personally don't feel burdened by other people's misconceptions about me - in fact I'm not even aware of them most of the time.

If it was the article's intention to foster negativity, it failed.

That's the thing. It's not a burden if you're not one of the white guys he's talking about. Congratulations on not being a self-entitled asshole.
 

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
And that is the main point that White men in this day and age need to understand; you don't get the benefit of the doubt. Like the rest of us, you as a White male are laboring under the sins of your fathers.

Would the same be applicable to today's Germans?
 

gogosox82

Member
It's a problem if it's applied to anyone, regardless of race, gender or creed. The fact that it's OK because it's happening to everyone and everwhere bothers me the most. Like we are supposed to just accept this world we live in where we should all just generalize and stereotype each other and assume every person of group X is Y (especially if we are assuming something bad). The fact is, people shouldn't be assumed to be something just because they fall into some racial, ethical or social category.

I don't think its a matter of acceptance, its just acknowledging that its the way things are. People make snap judgments about you, whether you realize it or not. It may not be vocalized, but when they see you, they immediately have an idea about who you are. So while I agree with your sentiment, that doesn't change the reality of how society assigns these stereotypical traits to groups of people and we have to fight against that in order to be successful.
 

akira28

Member
If only the old burden didn't completely suck absolute ass and end with rape and murder and conquest with the white man on top, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad? But for some reason God told the white man that it was his duty to spread religion and civilization to all the peaceful, happy, alive people that were never allowed to be all 3 ever again. It's so typical.

Would the same be applicable to today's Germans?

if you really want to know, ask an African emigre in Germany.
 

Dali

Member
You joking Dali?
He used Cumia, sterling, melgibson, Michael Richards , etc as his examples. His whole impetus for writing the article was Cumia. These people are racists. He does have a point but it just ultimately seems like he's saying racist white people can't make 50s jokes anymore. I wouldn't see a white person as guilty of racism if I had no reason to suspect it otherwise. Going by Zefah's post above he sees it the same way. It's only the white man's burden if he's racist or behaving in a racist manner. Compare that to a black man's burdenwhich is a cconcern regardless of how he behaves or carries himself it doesn't seem like much of a burden.
 

Alienous

Member
Patrice put it well. "If you're white you aren't allowed to speak about race. That's black people's reparations".

It's a weird kind of equality.
 

Kurdel

Banned
I say this as a white male, full disclosure. My mother did her part to help change the world by raising me the way she did. She raised me to be open-minded of cultures that aren't my own, and to not judge people by the color of their skin whether it be similar to mine or different. As someone who lives every day as subscribed to and dialed in as possible these ideals (I have gotten into fights with friends or others who use words and terms they shouldn't), I find it incredibly frustrating that the argument is being made to justify that people should be judged by the color of their skin. It's the classic "two wrongs don't make a right" situation.

Spoken like a true white male, I'm sure. I know that nothing I'm saying now, or have said in the past can erase the horrible things that have happened over the course of history. And the societal privilege I'm lumped into having (the other side of the coin presented in the paragraph above) is as unfair as can be. All I can do is live my life in a way that promotes equality despite color or race and hope that whatever small impact it makes will someday add to a potential greater good down the line.

So while I find it frustrating that the actions of others of "my kind" are potentially causing a detriment to me through their actions, I'm going to continue doing what I can to live in a way that doesn't perpetuate what others are doing. I can't understand why it's so hard for people as a whole to do that -- it doesn't take me a huge amount of effort to not be an asshole.


Completely agree with you on this one.
 

studyguy

Member
Patrice put it well. "If you're white you aren't allowed to speak about race. That's black people's reparations".

It's a weird kind of equality.

I mentioned it before but it bugs me when I hear the term "Generic White Guy/Girl." Gross generalizations about a person based on skin color, gender or anything else just breeds more ignorance. Everyone's path through life takes them down drastically different roads so it always seems so sad to label someone as "generic." I speak of my own culture with pride, something like that is formed by more than just a skin tone. I would hope everyone could carry and express the same cultural pride. Being able to speak about what you are shouldn't be some exclusive right, people who push that only look equally guilty of pushing forward inequality to me.

Of course that speaks less to race, but I would hope people see me as I try to see them. More than just a generic brown, white or black guy/girl.
 

besada

Banned
I think a lot of people are misconstruing the point of this blog post. It is not saying that preconceived notions should be applied to white people, it is saying they are being and will be applied to white people.

Correct. This is descriptive, rather than prescriptive, piece. It's discussing something that's actually going on, rather than suggesting people do this.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Correct. This is descriptive, rather than prescriptive, piece. It's discussing something that's actually going on, rather than suggesting people do this.

And the big takeaway is "get ready, you're going to have to do this, and this, and this, and you'll feel like this and this. it sucks. welcome to the club."
 
You know how people say it'll take some alien invasion to finally unite humanity? I think Louis CK had a sketch about white people being from another planet...
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He used Cumia, sterling, melgibson, Michael Richards , etc as his examples. His whole impetus for writing the article was Cumia. These people are racists. He does have a point but it just ultimately seems like he's saying racist white people can't make 50s jokes anymore. I wouldn't see a white person as guilty of racism if I had no reason to suspect it otherwise. Going by Zefah's post above he sees it the same way. It's only the white man's burden if he's racist or behaving in a racist manner. Compare that to a black man's burdenwhich is a cconcern regardless of how he behaves or carries himself it doesn't seem like much of a burden.

Dali that's literally the blog posters point. He is word for word saying what you just typed.

You know how people say it'll take some alien invasion to finally unite humanity? I think Louis CK had a sketch about white people being from another planet...

Link please.
 
Patrice put it well. "If you're white you aren't allowed to speak about race. That's black people's reparations".

It's a weird kind of equality.

I'm going to assume you mean Patrice O'Neil, and it pains me to say this, cause I liked him, but this is one of the most ass backwards pigshit stupid things I've ever heard about race relations ever.

White people are still going to continue to talk about race, and black people are still going to be economically disadvantaged due to the legacy of slavery in the US. Cash based reparations is something that can at least get the ball rolling on lessening that disadvantage.

That's so goddamned stupid it's actually offensive to me.
 
Why has it to be an African? They aren't the only ones facing racism in Germany/Europe. It was a honest question btw I'm just trying to understand this topic.

It doesn't. It was just the example he chose to use. If you want to use another discriminated group go ahead. Also it's important to note that this article is clearly written from an American point of view about America's history with race relations, so obviously Europe's might be different. So when the article says white men it's more or less referring to American whites, although it could also possibly work in the European frame.
 

Blair

Banned
And that is the main point that White men in this day and age need to understand; you don't get the benefit of the doubt. Like the rest of us, you as a White male are laboring under the sins of your fathers. No matter what it will be assumed that you are racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc. until proven otherwise. It may suck but the White male in this society has the burden (there's that word again) of proof when it comes to not being seen as a dick.


Who is making these assumptions? I don't think this happens unless you look like a neo nazi.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I detect a tinge of racism from the author, but for the most part I think his ideas hold true. I do have a problem with this part:

The problem that most of these men have is their lack of exposure to people different from them. To Cumia, he was attacked for no reason by a women from a culture that, he believes, has a violence problem (all of these views are available in his twitter feed.) It would never occur to him that as a woman she has experienced a lifetime of street harassment and would be justifiably suspicious and angry of a man taking pictures of her on the street. He would never think that it would not occur to a Black woman to call the police on such a man, because what are the chances that NYPD would take her side in a disagreement with a White man? He would never think that after, well, all of American history a Black women would be less than inclined to give a White man the benefit of the doubt.

How does that justify attacking someone? Taking pictures in public isn't against the law, so it wouldn't make any sense to all the police in the first place, but how does an inability to call the police make it understandable that one person would assault another person? It makes me wonder if the author does think assaulting people randomly on the street is not one of the problems with this story.
 

Alienous

Member
I'm going to assume you mean Patrice O'Neil, and it pains me to say this, cause I liked him, but this is one of the most ass backwards pigshit stupid things I've ever heard about race relations ever.

White people are still going to continue to talk about race, and black people are still going to be economically disadvantaged due to the legacy of slavery in the US. Cash based reparations is something that can at least get the ball rolling on lessening that disadvantage.

That's so goddamned stupid it's actually offensive to me.

Cash based reparations sounds like insanity to me. Income based? Sure. But we have that. Race based cash reparations? That's so anti equality might I borrow a phrase and call it "the most ass backwards pigshit stupid things I've ever heard about race relations ever".
 
Correct. This is descriptive, rather than prescriptive, piece. It's discussing something that's actually going on, rather than suggesting people do this.

I definitely got that when reading his piece. It actually restructured a lot of the things I had been reading about in a new and easier to digest manner.

My next thought is then: what are white men supposed to do with this information? The nice thing would be that it would just raise awareness and broaden horizons. I hope it isn't a call for white men to just shut up and take it, because we don't expect minorities to do so. In the current internet/media culture we expect the disadvantaged to speak up and get outraged by the unfair things they face. Those in positions of privilege should be able to do the same.
 
Cash based reparations sounds like insanity to me. Income based? Sure. But we have that. Race based cash reparations? That's so anti equality might I borrow a phrase and call it "the most ass backwards pigshit stupid things I've ever heard about race relations ever".

I don't really understand why it would be anti equality, but this isn't really a reparations thread. If you'd like to discuss it, feel free to PM me. The idea that white people not doing something that they're going to do anyway being reparations is really goddamned stupid, though. I'd hope this was made within the context of a joke, and even then, it'd be a bad one.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
I definitely got that when reading his piece. It actually restructured a lot of the things I had been reading about in a new and easier to digest manner.

My next thought is then: what are white men supposed to do with this information? The nice thing would be that it would just raise awareness and broaden horizons. I hope it isn't a call for white men to just shut up and take it, because we don't expect minorities to do so. In the current internet/media culture we expect the disadvantaged to speak up and get outraged by the unfair things they face. Those in positions of privilege should be able to do the same.

One of the most important things privileged people can do is speak out and take an active stance against bullshit when they see it unfold. Stand up WITH the underprivileged. If some shitty store owner won't listen to, say, a black dude who's being treated with shit, use that privilege and let him know that shit won't fly.

Stand up to bullshit. Every day. Anytime you see it. Always stand up to it.
 
Who is making these assumptions? I don't think this happens unless you look like a neo nazi.

I think that's the major flaw here, he's just saying it's gonna happen while looking at proven racists.

I believe most studies show that children still associate light skin as being 'good' which leads me to believe the perception that gives white people the advantage of being assumed as 'good' without any basis will overshadow these incidents that will largely be forgotten in the years to come.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I definitely got that when reading his piece. It actually restructured a lot of the things I had been reading about in a new and easier to digest manner.

My next thought is then: what are white men supposed to do with this information? The nice thing would be that it would just raise awareness and broaden horizons. I hope it isn't a call for white men to just shut up and take it, because we don't expect minorities to do so. In the current internet/media culture we expect the disadvantaged to speak up and get outraged by the unfair things they face. Those in positions of privilege should be able to do the same.

Shut up and take what?

Who is making these assumptions? I don't think this happens unless you look like a neo nazi.

I think you're absolutely wrong about that, but I can speak only from personal experience.
 
My next thought is then: what are white men supposed to do with this information? The nice thing would be that it would just raise awareness and broaden horizons. I hope it isn't a call for white men to just shut up and take it, because we don't expect minorities to do so. In the current internet/media culture we expect the disadvantaged to speak up and get outraged by the unfair things they face. Those in positions of privilege should be able to do the same.
What is there to shut up and take, though? A few jokes about how nerdy we are and how our family probably owned slaves?
 

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
It doesn't. It was just the example he chose to use. If you want to use another discriminated group go ahead. Also it's important to note that this article is clearly written from an American point of view about America's history with race relations, so obviously Europe's might be different. So when the article says white men it's more or less referring to American whites, although it could also possibly work in the European frame.
Well, yeah. Being a foreigner in Europe is enough to experience Racism. But you're right this article is clearly from an American point of view. My question was still honest being someone who faced Racism against me and friends many times. But it probably has no place here, so I apologize.

edit
I was entertaining the thought of making a thread about these differences but I'm to scared.
 
One of the most important things privileged people can do is speak out and take an active stance against bullshit when they see it unfold. Stand up WITH the underprivileged. If some shitty store owner won't listen to, say, a black dude who's being treated with shit, use that privilege and let him know that shit won't fly.

Stand up to bullshit. Every day. Anytime you see it. Always stand up to it.

Agreed. It's hard to do and I wish I was a stronger man every day, but it's worth striving for.

Shut up and take what?

What is there to shut up and take, though? A few jokes about how nerdy we are and how our family probably owned slaves?

Shut up and take it when they are labelled a racist just for being white. His example of Norton was a good one, in that he basically assumed the guy was racist because of the way he looked. That's not right. It's good that he actually listened to the guy and reversed his opinion though.

Or maybe speaking out against being dogpiled on because they said something that, when not being given the benefit of the doubt, could be construed as racist. Now, obviously Cumie has a history of racist comments, but if all he had done was called her a savage, and people still called him a racist just because he was white and therefore did not deserve the benefit of the doubt, that's wrong. On an individual level, it's just your opinion, but when it gets blown up and people start dogpiling, it's wrong.

If someone attacked me over randomly, I might call them a savage. If they happened to be black, and I happened to be white, I would hope that people wouldn't automatically assume I was racist.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Cash based reparations sounds like insanity to me. Income based? Sure. But we have that. Race based cash reparations? That's so anti equality might I borrow a phrase and call it "the most ass backwards pigshit stupid things I've ever heard about race relations ever".

Actually race base reparations isn't a crazy idea. And it's happened before in this country and others before.
 

Alienous

Member
I don't really understand why it would be anti equality, but this isn't really a reparations thread. If you'd like to discuss it, feel free to PM me. The idea that white people not doing something that they're going to do anyway being reparations is really goddamned stupid, though. I'd hope this was made within the context of a joke, and even then, it'd be a bad one.

I'm not so sure about this part. I can't think of any that do. It's a super touchy subject, and it's too easy to be labeled a racist. Validly, sometimes, but not always. A comment becomes an act of hatred based on skin colour, rather than the spark to a discussion about issues that might plague a particular community more than others.

And yes this isn't a reparations thread, but surely you understand that cash reparations would only damage race relations? You should have systems to help the poor of any color, not give a particular race an amount of money as an ultimately feeble gesture. I see no upside.
 
Shut up and take it when they are labelled a racist just for being white. His example of Norton was a good one, in that he basically assumed the guy was racist because of the way he looked. That's not right. It's good that he actually listened to the guy and reversed his opinion though.

Or maybe speaking out against being dogpiled on because they said something that, when not being given the benefit of the doubt, could be construed as racist. Now, obviously Cumie has a history of racist comments, but if all he had done was called her a savage, and people still called him a racist just because he was white and therefore did not deserve the benefit of the doubt, that's wrong. On an individual level, it's just your opinion, but when it gets blown up and people start dogpiling, it's wrong.

If someone attacked me over randomly, I might call them a savage. If they happened to be black, and I happened to be white, I would hope that people wouldn't automatically assume I was racist.
What anyone should ideally do in those situations is just explain the miscommunication but then listen to how they feel rather than feeling you need to continue to defend yourself. This is where they get stuck. People get in trouble for appearing overly defensive, self-concerned, and unempathetic, not because they're white.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom