Support NeoGAF

[Ninja Scooter]

While it's technically correct that you are winning something every time you pay for a loot box, I doubt that someone who "wins" a couple of med packs and some duplicate item that they already have would consider it winning. They're not gonna say, "holy crap, I won, no need to keep pumping money into these boxes!"



Sure, the guy opening the Pokemon cards gets excited when he gets something good but there's no shiny animation and loud noises trying to create an experience that says "this is so much fun, don't you think? Keep going!"



I would argue that for anyone who has had any kind of experience with these boxes in the last five years, winning basic loot and med packs counts as basically nothing. Someone who puts 20 dollars into loot boxes and receives med packs, ammo and duplicates would feel like they received basically nothing. But wait..

Maybe if they put in another 20 dollars they might get something really good.

Also I feel like this you won something argument is a "well technically" argument that completely ignores how this impacts people in real life.

"I spent 60 bucks on loot boxes and got nothing."

"Well technically you did get ammo packs."

Not sure how the disappointment of opening up a loot box and getting nothing you wanted doesn't also apply to CCG packs, or baseball card packs, other than you simply saying it doesn't. You might consider med and ammo packs to be "nothing", but that is exactly what is being advertised.

Also you are applying way too much weight to the presentation. The presentation of a slot machine is not what makes it gambling.

 

[NullPointer]

I'm not sure any of those things actually make the games better, though.

Going from the glory that was Firefight to Warzone's inventory management gambling mode broke my Halo heart to pieces. Series is now dead to me because I don't see them changing it in future installments. Whatever they do next it'll be littered with this garbage.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Not sure how the disappointment of opening up a loot box and getting nothing you wanted doesn't also apply to CCG packs, or baseball card packs, other than you simply saying it doesn't. You might consider med and ammo packs to be "nothing", but that is exactly what is being advertised.

Also you are applying way too much weight to the presentation. The presentation of a slot machine is not what makes it gambling.

Easy: you don't need an entry fee of 60 USD when you buy baseball card packs.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Easy: you don't need an entry fee of 60 USD when you buy baseball card packs.

And that makes more like gambling how? Do I have to pay a cover fee to get into a casino? Or are you just throwing out random, angry, irrelevant bullshit?

 

[Stumpokapow]

"is it gambling?" is just a semantic point. It doesn't matter how you define it.

I'm personally concerned about what we're seeing in China's mobile ecosystem. Young children are showing signs that look very similar to gambling addiction. It's prompted a lot of action from the Chinese government this last year, such as forcing loot box changes to be disclosed, and Tencent limiting kids to 1 hour per day on some mobile games. More action is likely coming as cute publishers skirt the rules and ignore the intentions.

Blizzard's Hearthstone maneuvers were particularly shocking. I don't get why Blizzard thinks "dodging the rules" is a good idea here. It will only lead to more crackdowns. Tencent has at least started to be proactive in some regards.

The debate of "is it gambling?" is pointless - it's about the effects on the mental health of children.

Maybe but that honestly isn't why Jim Sterling it TotalBiscuit are bringing it up and honestly given that both would strenuously reject any attempt for individuals to claim exposure to media/entertainment violence has an impact on child development it would seem hard to believe that they're interested in that particular angle at all.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

And that makes more like gambling how? Do I have to pay a cover fee to get into a casino? Or are you just throwing out random, angry, irrelevant bullshit?

In my opinion it's stupid to say it's the same as opening a baseball card pack since in the case of loot boxes you already payed for a full product and you're charged a fee for things that are already in the game. It may not be gambling but it's not the same as buying a couple of packages of Pokémon cards either.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

In my opinion it's stupid to say it's the same as opening a baseball card pack since in the case of loot boxes you already payed for a full product and you're charged a fee for things that are already in the game. It may not be gambling but it's not the same as buying a couple of packages of Pokémon cards either.

Again, that aspect of it has nothing to do with whether or not it is gambling. You are just throwing shit at the wall at this point. You are buying a loot crate, much like you are buying a pack of baseball cards. That there is an "entry fee" might be something you dislike, but it's completely irrelevant, and you have done zero to connect any sort of dots explaining why it matters, other than it being something you don't like.

 

[Goldfishking]

I'm not sure any of those things actually make the games better, though.

I disagree, I really liked halo 5 req packs. Not only did they lead to lots of free dlc but they also fixed the problem of people waiting around near bases for vehicles to spawn and instead got everyone in the fight. Having req packs also allowed the cards to have a certain value to them, meaning you couldn't spawn a banshee at the start of the game and had to actual play well to get one early.
I have never bought a pack in halo 5 but I also never felt like i was missing out on vehicles or weapons. As long as you don't only buy gold packs you'll get the stuff you want very quickly
The only possible downside is that people can buy more and better packs. But the matchmaking for warzone was actually based (partly) on which req packs you owed. So if your a new player who hasn't opened many packs your very unlikely to match with a player who has spent 100's of pounds on gold packs.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Again, that aspect of it has nothing to do with whether or not it is gambling. You are just throwing shit at the wall at this point. You are buying a loot crate, much like you are buying a pack of baseball cards. That there is an "entry fee" might be something you dislike, but it's completely irrelevant, and you have done zero to connect any sort of dots explaining why it matters, other than it being something you don't like.

Well, I could always exchange the cards I didn't want among my friends too.

 

[WHM-6R]

I'm not sure any of those things actually make the games better, though.

Shrug, more content without paying for it is rarely called a bad thing.

Also I can speak for experience that the loot boxes in FM7 are a step up from the mods in FM6.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Well, I could always exchange the cards I didn't want among my friends too.

You could, but that's your own secondary use for them. Maybe someone will trade you for them, maybe they are crap cards that nobody wants. That's not something that the people selling you the card pack guarantee, much like the people selling you a loot crate do not guarantee that you can do anything with them outside of their intended in-game use. Just like Donruss doesn't guarantee that you can sell your Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card for $50 if you happen to get lucky enough to get one. Those values are completely subjective.

 

[Pastry]

You still need an initial buy-in to be able to play Pokémon cards, whether that's a full deck or a bunch of card packs. So card games are probably the closest analogue.

Yup. You can’t just go out and buy a single card pack and be ready to play Pokemon. You need to either buy a shit ton of packs or a starter deck.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Meh... gaming is fucked up.

 

[PataHikari]

Does games costing more than $60 base sound like a good thing? Game development has gotten more expensive, companies have to make money some way. They know consumers don't want a higher shelf tag so they try things like lootboxes and DLCs to makeup the costs. We keep shitting on every alternative they come up with, what do you think the end-game is here for the industry?

They're already making tons of profit with games. They don't need these mechanics to make even more money.

 

[Trogdor1123]

They're already making tons of profit with games. They don't need these mechanics to make even more money.

What does need have to do with anything?

 

[Occam]

I've been saying this for years: "Micro"-transactions = mandatory Adults Only rating.

 

[Boombloxer]

I've been saying this for years: "Micro"-transactions = mandatory Adults Only rating.

No thank you.

Half of the reactions in here can be boiled down to simply not liking it, which is where a lot of the flawed arguments about children, etc come from. Just say that and be done with it. Law doesn't agree.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I've been saying this for years: "Micro"-transactions = mandatory Adults Only rating.

And it sounds just as silly now as it did then.

 

[dark10x]

I disagree, I really liked halo 5 req packs. Not only did they lead to lots of free dlc but they also fixed the problem of people waiting around near bases for vehicles to spawn and instead got everyone in the fight. Having req packs also allowed the cards to have a certain value to them, meaning you couldn't spawn a banshee at the start of the game and had to actual play well to get one early.
I have never bought a pack in halo 5 but I also never felt like i was missing out on vehicles or weapons. As long as you don't only buy gold packs you'll get the stuff you want very quickly
The only possible downside is that people can buy more and better packs. But the matchmaking for warzone was actually based (partly) on which req packs you owed. So if your a new player who hasn't opened many packs your very unlikely to match with a player who has spent 100's of pounds on gold packs.

The req packs kinda ruined it for me but, as I said earlier, I was primarily talking about single player games with these mechanics. THAT'S too far.

 

[dragonfart28]

This would significantly impact the market.

 

[RPGam3r]

No thank you.

Half of the reactions in here can be boiled down to simply not liking it, which is where a lot of the flawed arguments about children, etc come from. Just say that and be done with it. Law doesn't agree.

Agreed with this. Too many threads prior to this paint a clear bias on this topic.

 

[Relceroi]

If you roll for a specific thing and end up not getting it but several other things that you may or may not have yet instead, does your brain interpret that as a win? Or as a loss or perhaps as a partial win or a partial loss? Are the duplicate or redundant items that you receive still useful or valuable enough that they offset whatever sense of loss you would otherwise feel? Do you always get your money's worth? I'm not fully convinced the argument that loot boxes aren't gambling since you always receive (win) something holds much weight if people don't also actually behave like they are winning. Whatever the answer is, and since loot boxes appear to be increasingly common, presumably loot boxes are highly effective at getting people to spend money on them again and again.

 

[MUnited83]

In my opinion it's stupid to say it's the same as opening a baseball card pack since in the case of loot boxes you already payed for a full product and you're charged a fee for things that are already in the game. It may not be gambling but it's not the same as buying a couple of packages of Pokémon cards either.

But it is the same. No one is buying Pokemon booster packs to make their first deck: people buy a deck and then try to get cards to make the deck better through the packs.