If they never, ever, ever get made because they canned the game instead of releasing it filled with stamina bars, lootboxes, pay-to-win, microtransactions, excess DLC and add-ons, then I think something positive has happened here.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
TotalBiscuit asks ESRB to consider microtransactions in its criteria
- Thread starter Tonyx
- Start date
If they never, ever, ever get made because they canned the game instead of releasing it filled with stamina bars, lootboxes, pay-to-win, microtransactions, excess DLC and add-ons, then I think something positive has happened here.
LordRaptor
Member
That you're telling someone who makes super small in scope games and is highly successful in doing so - and who is self-aware enough of how lucky they are to be super successful doing so, because they see the road they travelled littered with the corpses of everyone who didn't make it - how to reduce their scope and be successful?
Spuck-uk
Banned
Tom Watson, UK Labour will be passing legislation shortly then lol
Option 5, CEOs of EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc. all take paycuts, stop focusing on shareholders, and put that money directly into development. Cut marketing costs. If the costs of production are going up and up, maybe the bosses need to make less money?
Glass Shark
Banned
.
CrashPrime
Member
First of all, fuck loot boxes. With that out of the way, a serious question:
How are loot boxes different from a package of pokemon cards? Is it the digital aspect?
How are loot boxes different from a package of pokemon cards? Is it the digital aspect?
Whitephantomzx
Banned
Man all these corporate shills over here does anyone have any sources that all these million dollar companies who are selling millions of copies ranging from 60-100 were losing money??
also why do they refuse to just let us justt buy the item its because why let you pay for something once when they can charge you mutpile times for it even tho they were already making money from dlc its pure greed!
also why do they refuse to just let us justt buy the item its because why let you pay for something once when they can charge you mutpile times for it even tho they were already making money from dlc its pure greed!
As someone who lived through Jack Thompson's attack on video games, you fools willingly want THIS US Government to set their sights on video games? That is fucking madness.
Edit: As someone who sells hundreds of dollars of PSN/XB1/Steam/Shark Cash cards each day to parents, I'm willing to bet a lot more of them know exactly what their kids are buying and are okay with it than we think. Why? Because to them, it's $20 every now and again to buy DLC versus $60 more often to buy a whole new game their kids blasts through in a week.
A lot of parents are clueless, but a lot are not.
Being rated M doesn't stop anything so if they want to throw it in there, go for it.
Edit: As someone who sells hundreds of dollars of PSN/XB1/Steam/Shark Cash cards each day to parents, I'm willing to bet a lot more of them know exactly what their kids are buying and are okay with it than we think. Why? Because to them, it's $20 every now and again to buy DLC versus $60 more often to buy a whole new game their kids blasts through in a week.
A lot of parents are clueless, but a lot are not.
Being rated M doesn't stop anything so if they want to throw it in there, go for it.
This pretty much sums it up. Though I'd sub in publishers in place of developers in option 4.
Also to say goodbye to any of the publishers trying to innovate or take risks with AAA games as larger and larger budgets scare them out of it.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Absolutely, and one of the worst examples.
LordRaptor
Member
- game production costs more than double generation to generation
- game sticker price remained the same from last generation to this generation
- fewer games are being made, so each game has to earn more to pull the weight of games not being made that obviously cant be sold
- huge publishers bailing the fuck out completely
- multiple studio closures over the last decade, including studios that had been around since pretty much the beginning of the industry
These would all suggest that there is something broken.
On the flipside, the evidence presented that publishers are just greedy is... people saying that that is so.
Spuck-uk
Banned
To be fair publishers ARE greedy, but thats kinda the point of their business.
Also more people need to learn what the difference between developers and publishers is.
Glass Shark
Banned
.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Not a good rebuttal tbh
LordRaptor
Member
FFS, he doesn't cite a single fucking source regarding the cost of game development, as per usual he just says things any random fucking forum goer will say.
Maybe they should develop games on lower budgets? Everyone chasing that AAA market. In the previous generations, many publishers thrived in the b-tier of production value.
That video is so out of context. He says you aren't getting the full experience for $60.
He mentions nothing about expansion packs. Just dives right into Season Passes/monumental DLC.
Says nothing about what "full" means or what $60 gets you in terms of hours and entertainment today vs 10, 20, 30 years ago.
I lost my respect for him there. Sure publishers may want to make money but my $ per hour on games has gone down over the years.
Spuck-uk
Banned
And then everyone immediately calls the bigger developers lazy and/or greedy.
The circle of life.
things like FIFA cards are not cosmetic though. They're pretty much pay to win. Buy enough expensive cards and you get better players
Papo Swing
Member
This is the first time I have ever seen a genuine and decent argument/solution brought up against the monetization of video games in this way.
I applaud him for it and I wish more journalist, vloggers and the community would take up real discussions around the issue with real solutions that don't devolve into "I am whining because I don't like thing"
I applaud him for it and I wish more journalist, vloggers and the community would take up real discussions around the issue with real solutions that don't devolve into "I am whining because I don't like thing"
Zombie James
Banned
Hellblade's proof that AAA can be done on a budget, without a $60 price tag, and without fucking over your consumers with microtransactions.
Owners: 184,185 ± 12,583
Players total: 170,242 ± 12,098 (92.43%)
I'm sure Activision/EA/WB would kill to see these numbers!
PleaseBeGentle_
Member
Wouldn't they just release it without the micro transactions and patch them in afterwards?
Hellblade was really cool and all but it is also only a few hours long and very gameplay lite.
I'm not sure what AAA games you'd really make the comparison to but I definitely want more options and I doubt it woulda been $30 if they made it 5 times longer.
It definitely had AAA level production values though.
Glass Shark
Banned
.
Even when its factually incorrect, pointed out to him as such and he basically states he doesn't care about presenting correct information at all.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
IDK if Lootboxes constitute gambling though. Gambling, you get something monetary in return. Something you can sell at least. In Overwatch, you can get random costumes, but you can't sell them back to someone. In some games I think you can, and maybe that should be discussed.
Haven't we been doing stuff like this for ages too, with Pokemon/Yugioh booster packs?
IDK. I just think there is some grey territory. I would like to see a study that measures reactions to these things, especially with kids, to real gambling. If they find a real correlation, the whole thing should be regulated. Pokemon cards and all, TBH. Kids shouldn't develop gambling habits at a young age. Depending on the results, it should constitute an AO rating, and be illegal in states where gambling is.
However, I feel like the lack of a real monetary incentive, really chances the picture. People ruin their lives because they think they can change everything by making it big, or they find themselves in a hole because they need do recoup their losses. Gambling is a cyclical, predatory, addictive, and fraudulent type of thing. Lootboxes just don't seem that bad.
Again, I'd like to see some type of study on this. If it turns out to be a little like gambling, it should at least not be in kids games. Make it rated T. Or M. Just not E.
Haven't we been doing stuff like this for ages too, with Pokemon/Yugioh booster packs?
IDK. I just think there is some grey territory. I would like to see a study that measures reactions to these things, especially with kids, to real gambling. If they find a real correlation, the whole thing should be regulated. Pokemon cards and all, TBH. Kids shouldn't develop gambling habits at a young age. Depending on the results, it should constitute an AO rating, and be illegal in states where gambling is.
However, I feel like the lack of a real monetary incentive, really chances the picture. People ruin their lives because they think they can change everything by making it big, or they find themselves in a hole because they need do recoup their losses. Gambling is a cyclical, predatory, addictive, and fraudulent type of thing. Lootboxes just don't seem that bad.
Again, I'd like to see some type of study on this. If it turns out to be a little like gambling, it should at least not be in kids games. Make it rated T. Or M. Just not E.
I was suprised to see that the loot box principle has moved over to children's toys which is pretty shitty.
Maybe it's the other way round but first time I've seen it in kids toys specifically Disney's trolls toys.
Basically you buy packs (blind bags) with random troll dolls, rare ones which kids want are extremely rare so parents have to keep buying packs untill they find the ones wanted.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073YH1X9M/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Personally I would like to see loot boxes banned outright, despicable practice.
Maybe it's the other way round but first time I've seen it in kids toys specifically Disney's trolls toys.
Basically you buy packs (blind bags) with random troll dolls, rare ones which kids want are extremely rare so parents have to keep buying packs untill they find the ones wanted.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073YH1X9M/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Personally I would like to see loot boxes banned outright, despicable practice.
You really fell for the Hellblade marketing didn't you?
Trading cards have existed for an ETERNITY. So, seeing it moved to other thing is NOT surprising.
HOWEVER, it can be nipped in the bud. Parents can stop this immediately by not spending money on it. Parents, in that situation, can recognize the scheme and simply not buy in. They can also educate their kids on it and move towards better toys.
At this point, we are simply caught up in our own out of control, rampant consumerism and have extended it to our children.
This is why it is unlikely video games will ever get the gambling treatment.
Magic has gone through this for years and gets away with it because gambling requires you to bet for something of value with something of value.
The easy argument is to acknowledge that all the rewards are equal value and equally worthless.
WoTC has managed to keep this on the d/l by not acknowledging secondary markets so as far as they are concerned all cards are worth the cost of making the card. Since you're always opening a pack for the same price and getting the same # of cards you get the same thing no matter what those cards are.
For video games many of the rewards cannot be traded and therefore cannot hold value. In addition you technically do not own your data so you're not really getting anything.
A change in the ESRB rating will absolutely factor into how publishers push for the loot box mechanic in games.
I don't think it needs to go further than age ratings tbh. You can't worry about people who discard the guidelines and buy their children GTA. Why should we coddle people like that?
Glass Shark
Banned
.
Simply Sami
Member
LordRaptor
Member
Maybe all those B-tier studios getting shut down last generation says something about the state of the console gaming market in and of itself?
All major consoles have account settings and other parental controls for the better part of a decade now.
Unclebenny
Member
Hellblade was specifically designed as AA experience. To prove that there was still room for that middle tier production. It is not AAA. Whatever any of these terms mean anymore.
Yes. This!
Would be interesting to see Pubs reconsider it and perhaps curb how it's going into most games...
Interesting when he talks about the dopamine release you get when opening a crate. Pretty sure every gambling addict can relate. Also the 'next crate will be better' mentality that goes hand in hand with an addict...
Glass Shark
Banned
.
i too am not a fan of capitalism but let's be realistic here
If loot box mechanics suddenly put the age rating of a game up then publishers audiences shrink. Some racing games don't deform the car beyond a certain point(I can't remember the criteria) because if they did the age rating would go up and their audience shrinks.
Using existing ESRB ratings and the parental controls in place already is a realistic response that can be implemented in the framework of the industry right now. Frankly I don't think it needs to go further than that either.
LordRaptor
Member
People aren't up in arms about this because they legitimately give a shit about children - thats just convenient padding for their fairly weak 'I don't like it' argument.
They're all in favour of this because it would be an additional inconvenience for publishers that they hope will stop them adding lootboxes in future.
Glass Shark
Banned
.