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[PMS341]

i too am not a fan of capitalism but let's be realistic here

You're right. We need to start dragging them out into the streets.

Being realistic isn't being complacent. Plenty of games come out constantly that are incredibly fun to play, and don't require the use of AAA-marketing recoupment against consumers. Your wallet and your words matter.

 

[MJLord]

Car deformation is largely determined by the fact that car manufacturers don’t want their vehicles getting completely destroyed in a simulation. (That’s my understanding, anyway.) And considering the fact that so many 12-year-olds are playing COD and GTA, I don’t think there’s ample evidence that M ratings do much to reduce the audience size for games.

It’s fine to hate loot boxes. It’s fine to say you shouldn’t buy them. It’s fine to yell long and loud about how they’re bad. But this is a dumb solution that ultimately isn’t going to help anyone. And this “won’t someone think of the children?” approach honestly feels like some right-wing moral panic shit used as a smokescreen by adults who just don’t want to see monetization in their games.

I'm with you on that.

However, I think the industry should still be responsible and they clearly aren't. If we provide the ability for parents who don't want their children to play games with loot box mechanics then we should provide that through the already established channels of parental controls.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[LordRaptor]

If we provide the ability for parents who don't want their children to play games with loot box mechanics then we should provide that through the already established channels of parental controls.

Is the issue lootboxes in and of themselves, or is the issue paid lootboxes?
Because AFAIK - and I don't own a PS4 or X1, so could well be wrong about this - the existing consoles have parental controls and subaccounts, and subaccounts do not have access to payment methods of the 'master account' so anyone not using a master account cannot purchase any form of DLC or MTX at all.

 

[Zarth]

Hellblade was specifically designed as AA experience. To prove that there was still room for that middle tier production. It is not AAA. Whatever any of these terms mean anymore.

In all fairness to them I've been saying the middle tier has been getting pushed out for years and they definitely proved it wrong.

I now believe the middle tier can exist but you definitely need people with experience to pull it off and not just a startup with a bankroll like many are.

 

[Turin Turambar]

It seems a good idea to me.

 

[20cent]

I've never played a game which has these loot things... I'm so confused. I haven't played an online shooter since years and don't know what's a MOBA though; I feel blessed.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

It IS gambling, 100% agreed.

 

[inner-G]

Maybe all those B-tier studios getting shut down last generation says something about the state of the console gaming market in and of itself?

If I was an investor, I sure as shit wouldn't be putting my money on AAA games

Stuff that can run on a tablet/Switch/midrange PC is generally going to be a safer bet with a lower investment. Stuff like that can still run on the other systems too.

 

[Stiler]

I agree with him, lootboxes pretty much tick all of the same things in our brains that gambling does.

Paying money in the hopes of "scoring" that big/rare item and then not getting it, but wanting to put in more money in the hopes of getting it and then you do and feel that rush of getting it and chasing after it again and again.

Also you can bet your bottom dollar that publisher have people working on their loot systems that are very well versed in how the human mind works in regards to such things and have factored in the best way to get people "hooked" into buying them.

The ESRB absolutely should have something to signify when a game contains something like that over a normal game without them.

 

[Zebei]

EDIT misread title

 

[border]

If you don’t want your kids to gamble, don’t give them acccess to gambling money. I’m not sure what this would really accomplish — plenty of kids are already playing M-rated games without much oversight from parents.

 

[chrisPjelly]

That's a good call to action. Loot boxes are literally gambling, and the ESRB should definitely take into consideration how predatory they can be.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[oti]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

Sounds reasonable. Even if most people buy loot boxes to get the best stuff presumably and not some low-level gear. But that's the same as trading card games.

 

[Welfare]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

Exactly. I don't need to be 18 to buy a pack of Pokémon trading cards.

 

[chromatic9]

Sound like blind purchase, like kids sticker albums, you end up buying packet after packet just to get the one sticker you want. Logically you'd just allow the kid to order the one wanted but then there's no excitement or surprise element. Is it a bit of fun or taking kids pocket money away?

Not that I'm trying to say I welcome loot boxes, and games to change to accommodate them.

 

[border]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.

That tends through be how I see it — don’t let your kids spend money on this crap, but there’s no need for it to be formally or informally regulated.

 

[Mattenth]

"is it gambling?" is just a semantic point. It doesn't matter how you define it.

I'm personally concerned about what we're seeing in China's mobile ecosystem. Young children are showing signs that look very similar to gambling addiction. It's prompted a lot of action from the Chinese government this last year, such as forcing loot box changes to be disclosed, and Tencent limiting kids to 1 hour per day on some mobile games. More action is likely coming as cute publishers skirt the rules and ignore the intentions.

Blizzard's Hearthstone maneuvers were particularly shocking. I don't get why Blizzard thinks "dodging the rules" is a good idea here. It will only lead to more crackdowns. Tencent has at least started to be proactive in some regards.

The debate of "is it gambling?" is pointless - it's about the effects on the mental health of children.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I've never played a game which has these loot things... I'm so confused. I haven't played an online shooter since years and don't know what's a MOBA though; I feel blessed.

History has shown that if not stopped, eventually they would come to the things you play.

By then it'll be too late to learn about it.

 

[LordRaptor]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

Should really be a new topic because people still keep declaring it is as an absolute fact and the only reason its not regulated is because the secret cartel of publishers are hushing things up

 

[Gnome Scat]

Good idea.

 

[Unclebenny]

Once again gamers get in a massive huff about something and try a bunch of ineffective methods to block it or stop it.

Where are the letter writing campaigns for better work place practices and fairer pay?

Why do so many people rush to the defence of youtubers when they are horribly racist or literally scam their own fans out of money?

What do we do to police our communities when there are members weaponizing racist language and targeting members of the development community?

The fact it is being led by Totalbiscuit, the entitled gamer supreme, just makes it worse.
The whole, "won't someone think of the children argument is nonsense" No one was getting this angry about FIFA ultimate team, which has being doing exactly this lootbox system for years. It is only as these systems have been rolled out in big "hardcore" games that anyone cares.

I'm not angling this at anyone here but it just seems to be so much more acceptable to get incredibly angry about annoying business practices rather than actual damaging societal issues. The ones that really damage our community and put new people off.

 

[Majukun]

the ESRB sided with the corproration and said that lootboxes are not gambling...why i'm not surprised?

 

[Robottiimu2000]

In a world where parents happily buy GTA and other 17+ games to their kids, I honestly don't see what would be the point of that... not to mention many of the games with such microtransactions are already rated Mature.

If one parent is a bad parent it does not mean all the rest are. Most parents aren't aware of what loot boxes are and would not allow their kids to spend money on them (or at least limit the money they spend) if they knew.

The point is.. that it is parents duty to try to warn and prevent their kids from behaviours that will be harmful for them. If they are not aware they can't fullfill their duty.

 

[Mattenth]

Should really be a new topic because people still keep declaring it is as an absolute fact and the only reason its not regulated is because the secret cartel of publishers are hushing things up

Here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1446275

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Somebody raised this idea in a thread the other day, I forgot to reply, but I absolutely think this is a good idea.

If you have any micro-transaction that buys a random item/loot crate, or if the micro-transactions can buy currency to be used to buy random items/loot crates, then it should be marked as including gambling, and made an Adult/18 Only title.

The biggest impact would be the restrictions on where these games could be advertised in the first place. Would go a long way to de-normalising this bullshit.

Unless you can open up loot boxes that contain nothing, I don't see how it's gambling, at least no more than buying a pack of baseball cards, or one of those blind buy kid robot toys. I definitely think microtransactions should be clearly labeled on packaging and in advertisements, but saying games with loot boxes should be 18+ is a ridiculous overreaction.

 

[Welfare]

the ESRB sided with the corproration and said that lootboxes are not gambling...why i'm not surprised?

"Sided with the corproration" is hilarious.

Loot boxes aren't gambling just like TCG like Pokémon and Yu-gi-oh are not gambling.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Trace]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

Correct response, not that GAF will like it.

 

[Stiler]

ESRB’s official stance is that they don’t see loot boxes as gambling.

(Because it isn’t.)

The idea that loot boxes aren't "gambling" since you always get "something" (even if that something is crap/useless/a duplicate) is naive imo.

The whole loot box thing affects the mind in very much the exact same way that gambling does and can cause people to get addicted to "roll" the dice again and again chasing the rare items and things they want out of it.

Why do you think publishers chase after "whales" and such, do you think that some of those people don't have a problem with gambling? Even those that literally lose their car/house when they go into debt spending money on such things?

If it's not an addiction like gambling then what is it?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The idea that loot boxes aren't "gambling" since you always get "something" (even if that something is crap/useless/a duplicate) is naive imo.

The whole loot box thing affects the mind in very much the exact same way that gambling does and can cause people to get addicted to "roll" the dice again and again chasing the rare items and things they want out of it.

Why do you think publishers chase after "whales" and such, do you think that some of those people don't have a problem with gambling? Even those that literally lose their car/house when they go into debt spending money on such things?

If it's not an addiction like gambling then what is it?

Spending a lot of money doesn't equate to gambling. If someone loses their house buying Pokémon cards does that make Pokémon cards gambling? Yes there are real world consequences and the potential for addiction, as there are with many things. That doesn't make it gambling. You can't lose. You always win something.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

Awful man, interesting idea.

Agreed. I for one refuse to get any game for my kids with microtransactions in them. People marketing this shit to kids is sick.

 

[SneakersSO]

It's fine to hate loot boxes. It's fine to say you shouldn't buy them. It's fine to yell long and loud about how they're bad. But this is a dumb solution that ultimately isn't going to help anyone. And this ”won't someone think of the children?" approach honestly feels like some right-wing moral panic shit used as a smokescreen by adults who just don't want to see monetization in their games.

Gambling addiction is absolutely a real thing - its good that the industry is being chastised for using tactics that are otherwise found in games of chance and these games should be held to the same sort of rules/laws/scrutiny that other games of chance are held to. Gambling addiction destroys lives and in this media format, a format which ordinarily hasn't had this before, these games are enabled & even designed to potentially prey on people who may be predisposed to gambling addiction due to genetics and aren't even aware that they are.

I'm okay with monetizing a game. You can put out content for it & sell it piece meal. No problem, go for it. I'm even okay with loot boxes if they cannot be purchased with real money in anyway (and yes, exchanging real money for an in-game currency still constitutes gambling in my eyes, and shouldn't be allowed).The moment you start adding a slot machine to the game for real money or in-game money which can be bought for real money is where I draw a hard line, cause it is something that has been proven negatively impact people & destroy lives. A person should be made abundantly well aware that the game they are purchasing features a game of chance with an exchange of real money.

At least in China these loot box games are forced to say the odds of winning which tiers of loot - at least the people have a chance at gaining the knowledge at what their odds are with every pull of the slot machine. We don't even get that right here in the US. I legit hope the efforts to get governments involved in this sort of malpractice just grows, cause the way its being implemented currently in games is nothing short of predatory.

 

[LordRaptor]

Spending a lot of money doesn't equate to gambling. If someone loses their house buying Pokémon cards does that make Pokémon cards gambling? Yes there are real world consequences and the potential for addiction, as there are with many things. That doesn't make it gambling. You can't lose. You always win something.

Yes, you can look at literally any hobby and find people that indulge in it to excess or that exhibit compulsive behaviours

 

[dose]

Spending a lot of money doesn't equate to gambling. If someone loses their house buying Pokémon cards does that make Pokémon cards gambling? Yes there are real world consequences and the potential for addiction, as there are with many things. That doesn't make it gambling. You can't lose. You always win something.

As someone else said in a different thread, by your logic, if casinos always gave you 1 cent if you lost on a spin at roulette then that wouldn't be classed as gambling. Of course it would be. The fact that you always get something in return doesn't mean it's not gambling.

 

[Stiler]

Spending a lot of money doesn't equate to gambling. If someone loses their house buying Pokémon cards does that make Pokémon cards gambling? Yes there are real world consequences and the potential for addiction, as there are with many things. That doesn't make it gambling. You can't lose. You always win something.

Just because you "win" something, even if that something is shit and of no value to you, doesn't make it less gambling imo, it's the same basic premise, you are rolling the dice (rng) in the hopes of scoring big but usually have a tiny chance of getting that and instead get something of little/no value.

It fits the definition of gambling to a T, just not the definition by the "law" in some countries.

There's a reason China made Blizzard show the drop rates in overwatch.

 

[Tranqueris]

Gambling is a cyclical, predatory, addictive, and fraudulent type of thing.

I would argue that loot boxes fits into this description pretty accurately. I wouldn't be surprised if loot boxes hit the same "oh shit I didn't get anything, I better keep trying" and "oh shit I won something, I should keep trying" centers of the brain that normal gambling does.

Also this Pokemon cards example people keep trotting out is completely flawed and doesn't fit anything resembling the experience people get with loot boxes. I would compare loot boxes more to slot machines. You pull the lever, you see a nice animation, bright lights, hear loud noises and ta da! You won something good! Look how much money (rare items) you won! Or you didn't win anything but the experience was pretty nice and you wanna be a winner (get rare loot) right? So keep playing!

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I would argue that loot boxes fits into this description pretty accurately. I wouldn't be surprised if loot boxes hit the same "oh shit I didn't get anything, I better keep trying" and "oh shit I won something, I should keep trying" centers of the brain that normal gambling does.

Also this Pokemon cards example people keep trotting out is completely flawed and doesn't fit anything resembling the experience people get with loot boxes. I would compare loot boxes more to slot machines. You pull the lever, you see a nice animation, bright lights, hear loud noises and ta da! You won something good! Look how much money (rare items) you won! Or you didn't win anything but the experience was pretty nice and you wanna be a winner (get rare loot) right? So keep playing!

When do you not "win anything"? Also your dismissal of the Pokémoncard comparison is pretty weak.

 

[dark10x]

For me I have never played a game (except some F2P mobile games) that I have enjoyed less because of loot boxes. This huge sudden outcry of negativity for something that has been in games for years is very confusing to me.

I have. Have you played a game that was greatly improved by loot boxes?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Just because you "win" something, even if that something is shit and of no value to you, doesn't make it less gambling imo, it's the same basic premise, you are rolling the dice (rng) in the hopes of scoring big but usually have a tiny chance of getting that and instead get something of little/no value.

It fits the definition of gambling to a T, just not the definition by the "law" in some countries.

There's a reason China made Blizzard show the drop rates in overwatch.

Putting a quarter in a gumball machine and not knowing what flavor you get is also "gambling" when using a very loose, dictionary definition. That is not the legal definition of gambling. The key is in your own phrase "even if that something is shit and has no value to you". This could apply to that gumball machine if I get a flavor I don't like. This could apply to a pack of baseball cards if I get a bunch of shitty players. This could apply to CCG pack if I get a bunch of duplicates that hold no value to me, because monetary value is never guaranteed. Maybe I can sell those baseball cards or that gumball to someone else and get my money back, or hell maybe even turn a profit, but that's not guaranteed. But I am always getting something. That's far different from a slot machine, where you are playing for the promise of increasing your initial investment and making more than you came in with.

 

[MUnited83]

I'm with you on that.

However, I think the industry should still be responsible and they clearly aren't. If we provide the ability for parents who don't want their children to play games with loot box mechanics then we should provide that through the already established channels of parental controls.

You literally can already do that. If you use proper parental controls your kids wont spend a single cent on a lootbox or anything else. You can literally do this right now.

 

[chromatic9]

I would argue that loot boxes fits into this description pretty accurately. I wouldn't be surprised if loot boxes hit the same "oh shit I didn't get anything, I better keep trying" and "oh shit I won something, I should keep trying" centers of the brain that normal gambling does.

Also this Pokemon cards example people keep trotting out is completely flawed and doesn't fit anything resembling the experience people get with loot boxes. I would compare loot boxes more to slot machines. You pull the lever, you see a nice animation, bright lights, hear loud noises and ta da! You won something good! Look how much money (rare items) you won! Or you didn't win anything but the experience was pretty nice and you wanna be a winner (get rare loot) right? So keep playing!

Very poor analogy and somehow you try to not see that you put in stake in a slot machine and can get nothing over and over. Gambling and blind purchase are different.

Instead of trying to argue wrongly that it's 100% gambling it might be best to put forward something else.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

It may not be gambling per the dictionary definition, but they're absolutely exploiting the same psychological hooks that slot machines do to achieve similar results. It's predatory, immoral, and needs to be regulated to some extent.

 

[Tranqueris]

When do you not "win anything"? Also your dismissal of the Pokémoncard comparison is pretty weak.

While it's technically correct that you are winning something every time you pay for a loot box, I doubt that someone who "wins" a couple of med packs and some duplicate item that they already have would consider it winning. They're not gonna say, "holy crap, I won, no need to keep pumping money into these boxes!"

Also here are three videos. While they do share similarities, one of these is clearly not like the others.

https://youtu.be/qRq2b3siAio?t=279
https://youtu.be/UxkBm4sEoE0?t=354
https://youtu.be/pqW8gJnqhAQ?t=159

Sure, the guy opening the Pokemon cards gets excited when he gets something good but there's no shiny animation and loud noises trying to create an experience that says "this is so much fun, don't you think? Keep going!"

Very poor analogy and somehow you try to not see that you put in stake in a slot machine and can get nothing over and over. Gambling and blind purchase are different.

Instead of trying to argue wrongly that it's 100% gambling it might be best to put forward something else.

I would argue that for anyone who has had any kind of experience with these boxes in the last five years, winning basic loot and med packs counts as basically nothing. Someone who puts 20 dollars into loot boxes and receives med packs, ammo and duplicates would feel like they received basically nothing. But wait..

Maybe if they put in another 20 dollars they might get something really good.

Also I feel like this you won something argument is a "well technically" argument that completely ignores how this impacts people in real life.

"I spent 60 bucks on loot boxes and got nothing."

"Well technically you did get ammo packs."

 

[dark10x]

How do loot boxes negatively impact overwatch?

I should correct myself.

While I don't see any value whatsoever in it myself, I can see why some people would enjoy these things in a multiplayer game. That's OK (provided it's done well).

For me, I draw the line at single player games. These types of games should never EVER feature a system like this. No implementation of loot boxes in a single player game has ever added anything of value. They only work if you basically artificially extend whatever content you have to make it work. I've never seen it work even one time in a single player game.

So I'm completely against it.

 

[WHM-6R]

I have. Have you played a game that was greatly improved by loot boxes?

Dunno if I could call either "greatly" improved but first thought is the mod cards in FM7 are considerably better than the ones in six and the "missing" assist bonuses are actually larger when cashed in on via mods in FM7.

Also I never spent a dime on Req packs in Halo 5 but I got plenty of addl content without paying for it, funded by those who did.

 

[Wireframe]

Very sensible

 

[MBS]

I agree with him, lootboxes pretty much tick all of the same things in our brains that gambling does.

Yet it doesn't involve any form of luck or risk whatsoever as you "win" 100% of the time, each time you use them. It's essentially the choice of each individual to use loot boxes or not.

It's not gambling.

 

[dark10x]

Dunno if I could call either "greatly" improved but first thought is the mod cards in FM7 are considerably better than the ones in six and the "missing" assist bonuses are actually larger when cashed in on via mods in FM7.

Also I never spent a dime on Req packs in Halo 5 but I got plenty of addl content without paying for it, funded by those who did.

I'm not sure any of those things actually make the games better, though.