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TRUTHFACT: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One

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I'm definitely willing to believe the rumors of yield issues but I still find it hard to believe a down clock. On the other hand that might be the least bad option. A delay to 2014 would be worse from a business point of view. It's been a while since my HW engineering days but I'm going to guess that heat isn't necessarily the issue here. ESRAM yields are the issue. If they down clock the ESRAM to help with that they likely need to down clock the coupled GPU.

Sony (read Cerny) were clever and they got lucky. APUs this large have never been done before and are high risk enough to begin with. Choosing to add a lot of ESRAM to the same die is literally asking for problems. If MSFT wanted a design that guaranteed 8gb of RAM they should have gone with a discreet GPU (7970m) with 4gb of GDDR5 and 4gb of DDR3 for their other stuff. Surely the extra power and simplicity of that design would be worth more than the efficiencies of an APU with a UMA. This reeks of a sloppy, rushed design. My guess is they didn't really want to launch this year (after running into problems with the HW in 2012) but that Sony forced their hand with their Feb reveal.

They couldn't do that, they needed memory pooling because their OS has a huge memory print; if they invaded 3GB of the 4GB DDR3 that would make life miserable for developers. They did what they thought was best..

It was still not a good choice though.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
It's hard to believe they are having production issues with such a modest console.

Jesus MS.

Very predictable drawback for System on Chip designs. Combining multiple chips into one die means any problem in any of the functions means you scrap your whole system instead of traditionally binning just the problem chip.
 
I think it is more to do with the "Boy who cried Wolf" they have heard over and over again how the more powerful hardware will influence a generation of games ... maybe they are just not believing it based on the other countless times?

I would believe that if their deductions of what the power of the console was or the significance of the specs wasn't so incorrect.

The majority of them have no idea their is a difference between GDDR and DDR
 

thuway

Member
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.
 

Ales

Neo Member
Even the Wii U can run UE4.

There is no magical 1TFLOPS line that dictates which consoles can run it or not. These engines are very scalable.

No the WiiU does not support the UE4. Repeated a few weeks ago by Mark Rein on twitter.
The UE4 according to information given by Epic takes 1+ Tflops.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
But this was the same difference we saw in the PS2 vs Xbox era. Max Payne, for example, ran at <20fps for the most part on PS2 and almost 60fps on Xbox. Not only was the Xbox more powerful, but in that case the more powerful system also had the easier architecture to deal with. But Xbox didn't steal the crown that gen, because it didn't have the software.

This forthcoming generation will be primarily a marketing battle. And it won't be the quantity of exclusives that matter, but the significance of the exclusives - eg whatever will be the next GTA or Halo. Other than that, it's down to the services each console offers. The power difference will only really play in to the decisions of people like us here on GAF in the main. If the general public were really that bothered about graphics they'd be buying plasmas instead of LCDs, and 360/PS3 would have wiped the floor with Wii from the get-go.

Hardcore are your advocates. In today's gaming market, you better appeal to them. Because the casuals have already shifted to superior platforms for their needs.

XBox didn't have the exclusives PS2 did. And neither will either of these systems. So that's a non-starter. MS has basically shuttered most 1st party development. It's not going to wipe the floor with PS4 in this area.

As for LCDs, that's not fair. Because LCD's, for all their issues, do look better in stores. Not only are they thinner with sexier WAF bezels, but they're brighter. And in the store showroom, brightness >>>>>> everything. As for motion quality, many LCDs have combated this with processing and are quite good. Granted, this processing introduces a lot of lag (bad for gaming), but lag isn't something uniformed buyers can see in a showroom. Plus, one source is often driving 50 displays. All sets have lousy motion artifacts as a result. It's impossible to stick out even if you could get over the brightness issue.

As for Wii, it had a hook that was universal. Bowling/tennis with a virtual racket? The world had never seen this. It was also pre-Ipad days. Casuals were naturally attracted to it.

One need only look at WiiU to see what happens when you don't capture the attention of the hardcore. Who knows. Maybe Xbox bros do have blind allegiance to a corporate brand and don't wanna become a free agent during transitions. This may prove correct. But it's never a good idea in today's environment to count on the casual appeal. That market is already being served much better elsewhere.
 
Could the difficulty in making chips in any way lead to unstable hardware? This stuff is scary based on their track record.

Premature failure is a possibility, but the common step is to disable cores for yield or underclock chips for stability. At least this thing will be getting as much thermal dissipation as possible from the chassis. It'll consume nearly half as much power as a launch 360, and clearly has a much more significant cooling solution in place.
 

bj00rn_

Banned
I don't see what your point is. Xbone is not an 'all in one' device, in as much as, there are things that it doesn't do.

"If it doesn't make ice cream and coffee nobody will buy it, BECAUSE M$ PROMISED IT WOULD DO EVERYTHING" /out of control internet

Anyway, yes MS say all-in-one entertainment center. With some minimal effort isn't hard to understand the extent of; Much the same as the 360 is today.
 

thuway

Member
No the WiiU does not support the EU4. Repeated a few weeks ago by Mark Rein on twitter.
The EU4 according to information given by Epic takes 1+ Tflops.

1 TF at 1080p. What happens when you down res, lower the effects (which are already lowered on PS4), and cut out some of the fancy expensive tesselating features?
 
Uh...

c2941865474db2286bb744b9742a.jpg


The iPhone was revealed as an all-in-one device.

everything your top of the range nokia could do and still be classed as a feature phone.
 
Ahh Hix this is going to be rough for you my man. :(

Good thing is the games will still look fantastic at E3

Bruce, are you saying that E3 will be a legendary bloodbath? One where I eyes melt from beautiful games, bans are handed out because of meltdowns that will live on for eternity and that this downclock will be a memory of yesterday?

Because that's what I think
 
I don't see what your point is. Xbone is not an 'all in one' device either, in as much as, there are things that it doesn't do.

'App stores' did not exist when the iPhone was launched, the closest thing was Linux's application thing. It seems kind of absurd to maintain iPhone was not an all-in-one because it didn't possess functionality that didn't exist at the time.

I concede the point.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

Come on people don't want bad news about a product they are going to buy. Just natural to lash out at the source. Even though I won't touch a xbox one with 10 foot pole because of DRM this news really sucks. I can see all third party games taking a hit on the PS4 so they look close to the same.
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

Because it is to easy to simply pretend to be one, when actually the person knows nothing at all. Over the internet, it is very difficult to varify the validity of someones claim. Just look at that pastebin nonsense that happened before the Xbone reveal.

YOU, may be telling what you have heard. Many others simply spout shit they made up while eating their cornflakes.
 
No the WiiU does not support the EU4. Repeated a few weeks ago by Mark Rein on twitter.
The EU4 according to information given by Epic takes 1+ Tflops.

It doesn't support the WiiU because Epic has no time for that piece of plastic. They already downgraded U4 when they abandoned voxel lighting.
 
They couldn't do that, they needed memory pooling because their OS has a huge memory print; if they invaded 3GB of the 4GB DDR3 that would make life miserable for developers. They did what they thought was best..

It was still not a good choice though.

They're running a VM on top of the hardware. They could have literally unified the memory in software because of how their 3 OSs work. The game OS could have used the VRAM with a small amount of the ddr3 while the rest would only have access to the ddr3.
 

Perkel

Banned
Shit i just noticed what Gopher said...
damn...

I wonder how developers will work with that... I mean if that is true that is no longer resolution downgrade to at least 1600x900 but many effects need to be considerably scaled or more advanced even completely dropped because of that.

This is no Wii U that is for sure but i don't think developers will be happy about it. This also mean common lowest dominator syndrome will be even more problematic for PS4 versions.

Let's hope they will fix it.. This news isn't good for any side.

It doesn't support the WiiU because Epic has no time for that piece of plastic. They already downgraded U4 when they abandoned voxel lighting.

According to Metro tech dev they dropped it because it was to costly even for Titan level hardware. They wouldn't drop mature tech imo if PC would handle that.
 

Spongebob

Banned
No the WiiU does not support the EU4. Repeated a few weeks ago by Mark Rein on twitter.
The EU4 according to information given by Epic takes 1+ Tflops.
Supporting it and not being able to run on it are two different things.

Also, Mark Rein only said that UE4 gets "interesting" at 1+TFLOPS.
 

MasLegio

Banned
For everyone asking- this information is all pretty recent. Around the PlayStation Meeting the Xbox One was way behind (OS + hardware). Engineers were scrambling to get things sorted out.

It turns out, they didn't sort it out. The OS you saw was a complete and total lie. The current plan is to get the yields up, lower the clock rate, and to have enough units out for a sell out in the Fall.

For those asking how this affects performance- to be perfectly frank; it is nothing turning down features won't solve. The mass market will never notice a difference between 1080p and 900p; neither will they care about dynamic shadows / global illumination / or tesselation. Go to your PC - and turn shadows from Ultra to medium, disable tesselation, and lower the resolution to 900p; and you'll find games run totally fine.

Microsoft is purely behind and it's now time to make drastic decisions. I don't think any one is happy about the lower clocks, but no one is depressed about it either. The Xbox One is an all-in-on device; and that's how it will be marketed.


damn!


things can only go one way from here....
shots have been fired
take cover everyone!

princip460x276.jpg
 
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.
Shoot the messenger.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
everything your top of the range nokia could do and still be classed as a feature phone.
Why suppose that 'feature phone' and 'all in one device' are disjunct sets? Apple revealed a feature phone with a distinct all-in-one device bent. Watch the keynote. They say they're unveiling three products, then they announce that the three products are a single device. If that doesn't scream 'being pushed as an all-in-one' I don't know what else to say.
 
Wait. Explain how it's poorly designed, if you could. Sony went with a more standard-looking approach while MS went another direction to address some of the same issues.

That's not really true. The conventional way of doing thins in the pc architecture is seperated VRAM and System RAM. Sony went unconventional and pooled it. MS also went ahead and pooled it, but they went cheap (poor design), and then they tried to circumvent that shortcoming by tacking an ESRAM to an already huge AUP chip (poor design) making it even bigger.

The problem is that the fabrication process they are using was (AFAIK) never tested for such a big die. They took a (stupid) gamble and bet their horses on achieving yields despite the die size inflation. My guess is they crossed their fingers and turned a blind eye to the risk.
 

Acheteedo

Member
Hardcore are your advocates. In today's gaming market, you better appeal to them.

A lot of my friends ask me for advice on buying a console, as I'm sure is the case for a lot of people here, so it's certainly worthwhile targeting the hardcore.

I'm finding it hard to recommend the Xbone over the PS4 right now, they have a lot of ground to cover and this kind of news isn't helping.
 
I don't see what your point is. Xbone is not an 'all in one' device either, in as much as, there are things that it doesn't do.

'App stores' did not exist when the iPhone was launched, the closest thing was Linux's application thing. It seems kind of absurd to maintain iPhone was not an all-in-one because it didn't possess functionality that didn't exist at the time.

Appstores didnt but installing applications on symbian devices existed way before the apple rokur never mind iphone.

There were plenty smartphones out there that offered what the iphone did and more. If you think the iphone success has anything to do with multifunctionalty over touch you are misguided.

Touch and only touch is what made iphone what it is today. Kinect cannot and will not have the same impact.

Why suppose that 'feature phone' and 'all in one device' are disjunct sets? Apple revealed a feature phone with a distinct all-in-one device bent. Watch the keynote. They say they're unveiling three products, then they announce that the three products are a single device. If that doesn't scream 'being pushed as an all-in-one' I don't know what else to say.

All in one suggests something that will cover all your needs. Multifunction suggests something that serves different purposes. the original iphone is the latter rather than the former.
 
They're running a VM on top of the hardware. They could have literally unified the memory in software because of how their 3 OSs work. The game OS could have used the VRAM with a small amount of the ddr3 while the rest would only have access to the ddr3.

Yes they would have, but now they'd have a pooled memory with 2 different bandwidths where they have to chop and shuffle to OS from one side to the other depending on software needs. Is this really very developer friendly, or even a good idea?
 

ciridesu

Member
The thing is, 'all-in-one' can also give us the iPhone. That's what I was hoping for from Xbone, anyway.

It really depends though. They're completely different products and fill completely different niches. Smart phones are to some extent portable pseudo-computers thus essentially meeting a person's do-everything -needs. Meanwhile, tablets are something in-between a weighty laptop and a small phone. Of course, people are also interested in an all-around product for their TV e.g. a game console.

But, what you have to keep in mind, that all of these products have different priorities and people buy them with specific criteria in mind. As with size, you start prioritizing different factors i.e. you no longer care about surfing the internet or such, but more about gaming and watching film. And the opposite as you go down in size. What do you call a phone that to some extent sacrifices its normal capabilities in an attempt to improve its film watching potential. A tablet. What do you call a tablet that sacrifices its portability by trying to improve its internet surfing and coding (etc etc) potential. A god damn laptop. What do you call a laptop that places importance on high spec gaming and coding. A god damn desktop computer.

Now, in a gaming console, people care about those few particular things; that its powerful and hence does games and other apps (e.g. Netflix and many many many others like TV synergy too) extremely well. But, what MS has done is that they've essentially sacrificed their specs and games potential in an attempt to catch a larger audience. Honestly, at least me personally, all the TV stuff would be a nice bonus, if they hadn't cheaped out on the specs (this latest rumour being the main offender god fucking damn). X1 is losing its initial focus, and that is a mistake.
 
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

They are the minority. The majority do appreciate people like you giving us information like this.

Ignore the haters!
 

Ales

Neo Member
Other insiders have corroborated his story. Also, Thuway is rather credible. This could happen if MS is forced to choose between a delay and a power reduction to meet the targeted release date.

It is probably true that MS is having production problems we heard this story for the first time a year ago.I have many doubts about the downgrade of the GPU for the simple fact that would make it unusable the UE4.
Also in the panel with the dev after the presentation of the xbox one have already confirmed indirectly that the GPU will be of 1.2 Tflops.
 
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

I appreciate the info. Stuff like this needs to be out there and known publicly.
 

jay

Member
Premature failure is a possibility, but the common step is to disable cores for yield or underclock chips for stability. At least this thing will be getting as much thermal dissipation as possible from the chassis. It'll consume nearly half as much power as a launch 360, and clearly has a much more significant cooling solution in place.

Thanks for the reply.

Shoot the messenger.

This would be preferable to some posters' actual mentality, which is people are deliberately creating false rumors in order to sabotage one console or another.

For example, this guy seems to think it's a ploy to ruin MS or something:

Yeah that's probably the point.
 
If this all is really true, I'm hoping at least they go the iPad route and release a new hardware revision every 2 years or so, so that this won't be a major problem going forward. For example, maybe in 2015 they release an Xbox One with 12 GB DDR5, and a 2+ TF GPU.

Otherwise, I'm pretty certain I'm going to be buying third party games on the PS4 for this entire generation. Thats coming from someone who has put in thousands of dollars in the Xbox 360 ecosystem.
 
Ahh Hix this is going to be rough for you my man. :(

Good thing is the games will still look fantastic at E3

That's true, I don't own an Xbox anymore and possibly wont get the One, just all my friends will be on it, so yeah.

I don't doubt your credibility by the way, if anything it's the exorbitant amount of downclock being rumoured (seemingly only by Thuway) that seems strange to me.

Obviously these issues exist and I doubt Microsoft would delay, though you never know. Like all of the rumours (DRM etc), all we can really do is wait and see.
 

mujun

Member
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

In your case, it may be because you were a Sony super fan for a long time.

Not to mention that "good" news seems to get equal skepticism.
 
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