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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
That's the big question over the last pages. There is no difference between PSN and Retail games, both require backwards-compatibility to run.
And if there will be backwards-compatibility is hard to say. Probably not completely unrealistic but still only a "maybe"
My guess is, because of PSN BC is more important than from last generation and Sony will try to get it in if in any way possible.
This is like people saying "I want to run Steam games". PSN games work just like retailed box games, its just the delivery method that differ.
Yeah, lots to learn. But we'd need to know everything in order to even have educated guesses at how they compare, and I doubt we'll get that much so there will still be lots of baseless speculation.
'Another part that shall not be named' is mysterious.
What about full PS3 games downloaded from PSN?
phosphor112
Banned
No they aren't. Not at all. Flower may seem "simple" but the amount of processing they do is extensive with the fully dynamic fields of grass. No other game does anything like that.
Wipeout HD runs 1080p at 60 fps. You can't do that type of stuff with high level API's.
I'll bet that it has BC.
Bookmark it.
Brad Grenz
Member
Right. There is no difference between what Infamous 2 asks of the machine and what the PSN exclusive Festival of Blood asks of the machine. Some devs may have coded their games at a higher level if they wanted, but there wasn't anything stopping them from using the machine's full capabilities.
What BC have to do with PSN games ?
BC can be done in two ways:
1. PS3 in PS4 (as lunch PS3 had PS2 in them later down to only Emotion engine)
2. Emulation few years after PS3 release.
1. Is very costly
2. There is no perfect emulators so it need heavy work and definetely won't be at PS4 lunch.
Hell there are no PS3/X360 amulator working on PC even mainly because it would need way above current hardware.
My opinion:
No BC at Launch. It will be later added after 2-3 years when PS3 sales will go down.
hmm.
In that case I'll go for 'shitty Xbox 360 style approach with ad-hoc patches for a handful of games initially and then a few more later on but not full support. Sony will claim BC with no specifics, we'll all be happy until the reality bites at launch.'
that should cover all cases.
I find BC to be more important at the start of its life. For me anyway, if it had BC I could get rid of my PS3 and still play those games until developers start making games for next gen only. Otherwise I'd just wait a while until the PS4 does have games I want to play.
I still have a feeling the PS3 won't have BC but I definitely hope I'm proven wrong.
systemfehler
Member
If there is BC hardware that would benefit native PS4 software aswell you don't want to seperate SKUs - look what happend with the 360 and HDDs.
What about the Gaikai idea Marcus Beer has been throwing around a lot at GameTrailers? Makes sense to me, otherwise why would Sony buy something like Gaikai?
I think it will either be through Gaikai (cloud based) or using that BC USB stick that they patented a while ago.
Gaikai was good buy for Sony but you need very fucking big network of gekai servers around world to have BC in every PS4. With current internet speed and avarge latency it is still not an option. Could be gimmick for TV. But in few years technology could provide better avarge latency and internet speed so with PS5 they could go partially cloud. PS6-7 will be cloud based.
i think usb stick is the better way, no added cost to manufacture ps4 , they can make a limited amount and make more if needed, and only people really interested would buy (plus they could also make some profit from it)
I've never seen cloud gaming as a serious thing for core gamers, lag kills it for me
paradise_circus
Member
usb sticks would be really a good solution.
sony is allready using an external gpu solution for theri premium laptops
sony is allready using an external gpu solution for theri premium laptops
Using stick for PS4 doesn't have any sence. Stick would be used for simple hardware like TV or DVD/BD.
Streaming is software thing not hardware
i wonder if the BC usb stick thing (if it was possible), could be seen by sony as a potential security risk.
well, if that was the case, a 'mini ps3' in a usb stick that could be compatible with other sony devices like bravia tvs could be even better to sell them. As for streaming, i thought it worked by streaming gfx not software. Like remote play on vita or psp
well, if that was the case, a 'mini ps3' in a usb stick that could be compatible with other sony devices like bravia tvs could be even better to sell them. As for streaming, i thought it worked by streaming gfx not software. Like remote play on vita or psp
This is the best option.
I have a PS3, why should I pay for another if I want a PS4?
Brad Grenz
Member
It:
1) would not be a stick. The PS3 chipset is still very far from getting down to the size of a USB stick.
&
2) will not be USB. It would use a proprietary interconnect providing access for power, SATA, USB, Network, Bluetooth & HDMI.
1) would not be a stick. The PS3 chipset is still very far from getting down to the size of a USB stick.
&
2) will not be USB. It would use a proprietary interconnect providing access for power, SATA, USB, Network, Bluetooth & HDMI.
Sure, but it's better than admitting to have zero BC or having to include a ps3 inside a ps4 (they can't even shrink the super slim ps3 to a decently small format).
yup, if they manage to do it seems the most logical approach, 'special sauce' for the cpu (great for physics and such) and also ps3 BC all in one. I wonder if that is possible.
I really hope that is it. SPEs could handle OS tasks when playing a PS4 game(or devs could use it on PS4 games too, maybe 2-3 SPEs is enough to run the OS?), and when starting a PS3 game the main CPU might be able to emulate the PPE and the SPEs kick in to run game code. Downside would be no real-time OS acsess maybe.
Keep in mind that emulators on PC can not be compared. Sony has all the code for how the PPE/Cell works. Unlike the people who made PCSX2, they did not have full PS2 code and man that is one complicated system. This is why it takes so much more to emulate PS2/Gamecube games.
From the patent it seemed like they wanted to build the hardware into some sort of external device that connects to future consoles.
I think it'd be a good solution, they can make the cost back by either selling them separately, bundling them with a premium SKU, or both.
They should just design something like a base attachment that connects to the PS4 from the bottom. The attachment will basically contain the PS3 sans the HDD, blu-ray drive, ports and wifi, and utilize the available components from the PS4 system itself. That would be ideal for me
jeff_rigby
Banned
Start by understanding that software developers working on current PS4 developer platforms have access to the entire GAME system except possibly what would be the PS3 XMB applications side on the PS4.
If SPUs are included as additional compute units which I find likely then they will be accessed as Compute units via OpenCL under the game side of the PS4. With PS3 BC they will be the Cell SPUs and the rest of the PS4 will emulate the other PS3 hardware. For the Application side they will probably be reserved by Sony for special features not possible on most PCs or part of the Depth Camera/Augmented Reality/Head mounted glasses processing.
Brad Grenz
Member
Yeah, my preferences go thusly:
1. SPE array built into Orbis APU add compute performance for native PS4 software (audio, media decode/encode, decompression, MLAA, Physics via OS level services and APIs) and hybrid hardware/software emulation that is backwards compatibility for all PS3 software (plus PS1, PS2 and PSP).
2. External backwards compatibility module that is sold separately for sub-$100, bundled with premium SKU providing full PS3 compatibility when attached.
3. Nothing. No PS3 software support. Backwards compatibility with PS1, PS2 and PSP via software emulation.
4. Full Cell (and possibly RSX) plus memory integrated onto the PS4 motherboard, PS3 launch system style with all the added cost that entails, and no benefit for PS4 software.
1. SPE array built into Orbis APU add compute performance for native PS4 software (audio, media decode/encode, decompression, MLAA, Physics via OS level services and APIs) and hybrid hardware/software emulation that is backwards compatibility for all PS3 software (plus PS1, PS2 and PSP).
2. External backwards compatibility module that is sold separately for sub-$100, bundled with premium SKU providing full PS3 compatibility when attached.
3. Nothing. No PS3 software support. Backwards compatibility with PS1, PS2 and PSP via software emulation.
4. Full Cell (and possibly RSX) plus memory integrated onto the PS4 motherboard, PS3 launch system style with all the added cost that entails, and no benefit for PS4 software.
KimonoNoNo
Member
That does seem the most elegant solution if they can pull it off.
I'll be interested to see how Durango manages to pull off BC, because the same reasons for including BC apply to them as well with regards to people's XBLA libraries.
I don't understand the idea of BC through Gaikai.
I get the basic idea, run the game on servers and stream it to your PS4. But this doesn't change the fact, that you need some hardware that is compatible with PS3 software (like a PS3
). You can't just simply run PS3 games on any server.And I'm not sure it makes financially more sense to keep a "PS3-server farm" just for BC instead of building the hardware right in the PS4 and try to use it for PS4 as well.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
I predict the PS4 will act like a surrogate receiver and will allow for you to plug in your PS3 to one of the HDMI inputs. All it will do is save you having to plug two devices into a TV by passing through the signal.
#GhettoBC
#GhettoBC
I don't understand the idea of BC through Gaikai.
I get the basic idea, run the game on servers and stream it to your PS4. But this doesn't change the fact, that you need some hardware that is compatible with PS3 software (like a PS3
And I'm not sure it makes financially more sense to keep a "PS3-server farm" just for BC instead of building the hardware right in the PS4 and try to use it for PS4 as well.
In the long term it would probably be cheaper to put some x thousand PS3s into their data centers around the world than to add BC hardware to the tens of millions of PS4s sold. A lot of any PS3 software running on Gaikai will have to be relicensed, and they could relicense the PC version to run on their standard non-PS3 hardware also. I'm not sure what kind of scale they're targeting with their cloud service, but I'm guessing somewhere in the tens of thousands of concurrent sessions. If only PS3 exclusive software needs to run on PS3 hardware on the server side, that might equate to some single-digit thousands of sessions that need to be on PS3 hardware (?)
It won't 'just' be for a kind of BC either - they'll be monetising this content via their cloud service, targeting far more than PS4 users upgrading form a PS3.
It would be interesting to know what kind of hardware they'd need to support whatever kind of scale they're targeting though, if they are to offer PS3 games. The above is just some guesses.
I don't think gaikai is for BC. They could get gaikai to run any PC game on the PS4. That will be a huge coup if that happens. It will immediately diversify the games library, and allow Sony to gain a subscription base that generates consistent and predictable revenue. I hope they go in this direction.
if you can magically built it into the APU, then you have to account for it's needed bandwidth and memory latency, the XDR memory on PS3 has 25G/s even then XDR is a very low latency memory when GDDR is the exact opposite. Spursengine that Toshiba made I see it uses XDR too, maybe there is a technical reason for requiring this kind of low latency memory to work effectively with parallel SPEs. then there is the interconnections between main CPU/GPU and this SPE array....
I think if it there is going to be any CELL or SPEs in PS4, it's almost certainly has to be separate with it's own memory pool like how PS3 handled BC, something that can be removed later too and doesn't complicate the main memory bus.
Betrayer of hope
Banned
It's not just the games, the entire system runs on the Cell itself. The operating system and game security all run on a single SPE. Home, the services like vidzone, netflix, lovefilm, bbc iplayer all have been optimised to take advantage of the sheer speed of the processor in video and audio decoding.
SCEJ who run the whole show on the ps3 operating software and security themselves will ensure that the playstation 4 has the cell broadband engine in it.
I don't understand it. I have about 25 retail PS3 games. I never registered them anywhere - they are retail games.
So if Sony offers BC though Gaikai - they would have to give all PS3 titles away for free (not gonna happen), as they don't know who owns what game. They can't even give discounts for game owners. That's no BC at all - it's just another service where you can buy the same games.
MikeE21286
Member
They could do something similar to what they did with the PSP to Vita "transfer" in Japan.
You could register your games (PSP games had a unique serial core apparently, maybe PS3 gams do too?) and pay a small fee for the online version. Not sure though..
yup, maybe Gaikai could be included as a PSN+ benefit while PS4's catalog grows enought to offer content like ps3 does now.
They could require you to put the game in the disk drive, like 360's full install, you still need to have the game in the console to play it.
In that scenario you'd probably still need to put the disc in each time you play, and once verified the game would start streaming.
Kind of like full installs on the Xbox.
It could be an interesting gamble by Sony. Offer full BC by using gakai, and hope that in reality nobody plays them so they don't need a warehouse full of old PS3s.
Anyway, gakai isn't great for BC, lots of bandwidth and can't play offline etc
amstradcpc
Member
The OP was posted at 4:11 PM, so more or less at 4:00 PM.
Betrayer of hope
Banned
Gaikai for BC? You guys cant be serious right? There isn't enough bandwidth or resources to stream ps3 games worldwide on current networks.
Besides you also need the hardware materials to decode the ps3 games. It's just virtually impossible
Besides you also need the hardware materials to decode the ps3 games. It's just virtually impossible
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Wat?
Hardware materials?
Gakai is just video and audio streamed over the web, something pretty much any device can "decode".
Hardware materials?
Gakai is just video and audio streamed over the web, something pretty much any device can "decode".
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