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VGLeaks: Details on PS4 Audio Processor (ACP)

Krakn3Dfx

Member
So the PS4 is going to have sound? Right out of the box?

Man, it's like we're in The Future.

giphy.gif
 

USC-fan

Banned
From what i gathered the X1 audio chip we dont have its name but it has components to do the kinect processing and it has that SHAPE block that has the DSP fixed functions in it and that is why its not programmable.


Vgleaks has an article about it.

Shape is the only audio chip and its reserved for kinect.
 

Dahaka

Member
Playing mp3's or audio files and shit is so trivial. I don't get why anyone on earth cares about the audio chips in the new consoles. Is computing power suddenly going to allow for audio that just wasn't possible on the last consoles? I doubt it.

Where have you been in all the past years where hardware audio went downhill with the death of DS3D and the downfall of Creative's dominance (though of course also self-inflicted), when games more and more used standard primitive Xaudio2 features, middleware like FMOD became the norm and games in 2013 still can't even do basic elevation right or at all. Mostly there is no differentiation. Something that has been done over 10 years ago already.

Today we have imprecise rendering of audio with a lot of prebaked recordings that just give you the illusion until you find out that the sound doesn't change with the direction (see BF3).

No, game audio today is neither ok nor fine, it's fine and well in rare occasions like Killzone 2/3 (where the SPUs did some nice stuff)

IIRC bkilian (the designer of the Xbox One ACP afaik) to have said that certain games on Xbox 360 ate up to a single core.

P.S.: Let's not forget good audio recordings that aren't held back by memory and storage (hello DVD)
 
You forgot 3.5 stereo jack in the joypad.

Also: much power needed for voice recognition? Come on people, 10 year old phones have voice dialling.

Let's compare numbers between 0 and 9 and the english language in terms of recognition difficulties!
 

Alx

Member
Also: much power needed for voice recognition? Come on people, 10 year old phones have voice dialling.

Dialing requires recognizing one word among 10 (zero, one, two, three...). The task becomes harder the more words you add to the dictionary.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
You forgot 3.5 stereo jack in the joypad.

Also: much power needed for voice recognition? Come on people, 10 year old phones have voice dialling.

I don't think anyone is expecting a great DAC in the joypad. I hope I'm wrong, that'd be a perfect way to play for me
 
Shape is the only audio chip and its reserved for kinect.

Just reread some of the VGleaks docs and one block of Shape is for kinect the AVP block from what i can gather.
I would like an source saying the audio chips is only for kinect seems turn10 seems to use it a lot for their audio.
But that interview was at E3 so my memory could be hazy not that big of an audio guy.
And im not an audio engineer so it all blablablabla too me.

audio.jpg
 

He is not right, not at all. Shape is a monster, probably the best sound chip ever produced in the gaming market.

Take a look at this thread and above all to Bkillian posts:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=63677

For example:

http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1787066&postcount=558

I can't speak to what the PS4 has, but the X1 audio block would put the best sound card you can buy to shame. And that's _before_ you add in _any_ of the DSP cores. And the DSP core for scheduling removes a huge burden from the CPU requirements for audio processing. If all the chip did was offload effects scheduling and mixing it would easily half the CPU requirements for audio compared to the 360. It does a lot more than that.

But as I've said before, it helps with CPU processing and will not perform any magical GPU upgrade. It just means games on the X1 will have more CPU headroom to either use for reducing the amount of time it takes to get the game to a happy place CPU wise, or increase the amount of CPU tasks being done. The realist in me suspects it'll be the former. When given the choice of "We can have a lower development cost" versus "We can fit in a few more AI tasks", any game company that is not a first party is going to choose lower costs.
 

Orca

Member
Both consoles have audio chips adequate to their needs, enough that the CPU/GPU will be bothered the bare minimum amount (except for more advanced stuff like raycasting for which both consoles will have to use the cpu, or even GPU compute). That's all that needs to be said really.

So the Xbox one sounds like it's better, but it doesn't matter.
 

USC-fan

Banned
Just reread some of the VGleaks docs and one block of Shape is for kinect the AVP block from what i can gather.
I would like an source saying the audio chips is only for kinect seems turn10 seems to use it a lot for their audio.
But that interview was at E3 so my memory could be hazy not that big of an audio guy.
And im not an audio engineer so it all blablablabla too me.

audio.jpg

That whole chip is for kinect, not just one part.

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1787843#post1787843
 

JaggedSac

Member
Just reread some of the VGleaks docs and one block of Shape is for kinect the AVP block from what i can gather.
I would like an source saying the audio chips is only for kinect seems turn10 seems to use it a lot for their audio.
But that interview was at E3 so my memory could be hazy not that big of an audio guy.
And im not an audio engineer so it all blablablabla too me.

audio.jpg

My memory was correct, 512 streams and it handles filters/effects as well on chip. And I don't think devs have to do anything to explicitly use the chip, DirectX will send anything using XAudio to it.

That whole chip is for kinect, not just one part.

http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p...43#post1787843

The post you are referring to even says that devs have access to it. Might only be a small part, but they still have access to it.
 
So mixing and filtering will have to come from the CPU whereas on XBO they're not wasting CPU cycles doing such. I don't really know how anyone can spin this as better for PS4 when it's not.
 

nib95

Banned
So the Xbox one sounds like it's better, but it doesn't matter.

That is correct. It's better because it has to be in order to maintain the functionality that Kinect requires, without taking further resources away from the CPU/GPU (of which 2 cores and 10% are already reserved for the OS and it's features). The Shape audio chip in the Xbox One isn't going to be advantages to games rendering in any way, it's literally been almost entirely reserved for audio use. The PS4's audio chip has a similar purpose, to manage audio and take audio resource load off/away from the rest of the console. Doesn't need to be as powerful as the XO's audio chip because it doesn't have to deal with multi tasking audio and Kinect.
 

USC-fan

Banned
My memory was correct, 512 streams and it handles filters/effects as well on chip. And I don't think devs have to do anything to explicitly use the chip, DirectX will send anything using XAudio to it.



The post you are referring to even says that devs have access to it. Might only be a small part, but they still have access to it.

They have access but that can be remove once you do anything else but gaming. Its always reserved for kinect. Now the game has to switch to software render. Sounds like a nightmare to use.

While in the foreground, an application has full access to the SHAPE hardware. When that application is pushed to the background—pinned, picture-in-picture, or other scenarios—it relinquishes hardware control. By default, its hardware state is suspended, and resumes when the title returns to the foreground. This also is true for Exclusive Resource Applications [ERAs] where the software graph is suspended.

A title may optionally choose to tear down its audio graph and reconstruct it upon resume. Some titles, particularly Shared Resource Applications [SRAs] that play background music such as streaming radio, may choose to have some aspects of audio continue to play even while paused. For these scenarios, titles should closely evaluate whether to attempt a seamless transition from hardware to software rendering, or to always play audio intended for background playback via a software-only pipeline. This has implications for compression formats and CPU costs. XMA-compressed assets, for example, require the use of SHAPE hardware, and thus will not be decodable for a background application.

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-sound-of-tomorrow/
 
My memory was correct, 512 streams and it handles filters/effects as well on chip. And I don't think devs have to do anything to explicitly use the chip, DirectX will send anything using XAudio to it.



The post you are referring to even says that devs have access to it. Might only be a small part, but they still have access to it.

They don't have direct access to but they have to call it from an API microsoft already has.
So something like AudioAPI.SomeAudioFunction(); if a developers uses that function the API will probably run it on SHAPE when its compiled for the X1 and on other platforms either on the CPU or GPU.

They have access but that can be remove once you do anything else but gaming. Its always reserved for kinect. Now the game has to switch to software render. Sounds like a nightmare to use.
http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-sound-of-tomorrow/

So don't play audio in the background from what i gathered they also have to reduce their core usage to 4 cores when in the back ground.
Simple solution is to pause the game when its not on the foreground. Hardware state is restored when the game is back on the foreground.
Only when you opt in to keep running the game in the background will it become a pain in the ass at least that is my view on it.
 

JaggedSac

Member
They have access but that can be remove once you do anything else but gaming. Its always reserved for kinect. Now the game has to switch to software render. Sounds like a nightmare to use.

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-sound-of-tomorrow/

That is referring to applications, not games. But regardless, that is saying that SHAPE cannot be used by an application that is running in the background, pinned, or is snapped. Basically, they cannot use it when a game might be using it.


They don't have direct access to but they have to call it from an API microsoft already has.
So something like AudioAPI.SomeAudioFunction(); if a developers uses that function the API will probably run it on SHAPE when its compiled for the X1 and on other platforms either on the CPU or GPU.

Yep, that is what I said.
 
That is referring to applications, not games. But regardless, that is saying that SHAPE cannot be used by applications that is running in the background, pinned, or is snapped. Basically, they cannot use it when a game might be using it.




Yep, that is what I said.

Probably miss quoted someone :p
 

ethomaz

Banned
Nothing new here.

For games the audio chip is enough and it will free up the CPU from audio chat processing too.

Any advanced audio processing like raycasting audio will be processed into GPU (the Xbone's audio chip can't do raycasting audio too... both needs the GPU).
 
wtzgU.gif


So is this better than what the Xbone has, or the same, or worse, or is there no way to know? And will it make a difference one way or another?

The SHAPE processor is dedicated hardware for Kinect voice functions. If a game does not have kinect integration then SHAPE does not benefit GPU or CPU functions. Outside of that I don't know if PS4 is better or worse in that regard, but since we know that PS Eye isn't required then I would imagine audio processing for games is handled via PS4's DSP.
 

SnakeXs

about the same metal capacity as a cucumber
If only people realized that audio is held back by everything but processing power.

Disc space, memory space, streaming speed, and most importantly people are the bottlenecks for audio. Unlike visuals, the best audio of last gen will easily surpass a lot of games' audio next gen.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Just t be clear here, we are fighting about sound chips that will almost never be used to the max and when they do only the most descerning audiophile will be able to tell the difference? Or is it something else?
 
Just t be clear here, we are fighting about sound chips that will almost never be used to the max and when they do only the most descerning audiophile will be able to tell the difference? Or is it something else?


I don't think anyone is fighting. more so scream-typing opinions.


LOUD NOISES,.
 
I don't see how there is even a discussion. Obviously PS4 is the better console for sound... I mean, it has a speaker built right into the controller. Like inside of it! Does Xbone have anything even remotely comparable to that? No, it doesn't.

/thread
 

FeiRR

Banned
Let's compare numbers between 0 and 9 and the english language in terms of recognition difficulties!

Dialing requires recognizing one word among 10 (zero, one, two, three...). The task becomes harder the more words you add to the dictionary.

This is voice recognition on Nokia E72, a phone with ARM11 processor of 24 GFLOPS of processing power. It's just a bit more than 1.3% of PS4 but I'm sure you could get it work on something slower, below 1%. I remember fiddling with voice commands on my computer at least 15 years ago.

Of course, noise cancelling and recognizing particular people speak (which Kinect was reported to be able to do) requires more powerful hardware but that's what SHAPE is for.
 

Mit-

Member
Not sure if related--do we know if PS4 will have any kind of universal custom soundtrack system, similar to 360?
 

Alx

Member
This is voice recognition on Nokia E72, a phone with ARM11 processor of 24 GFLOPS of processing power. It's just a bit more than 1.3% of PS4 but I'm sure you could get it work on something slower, below 1%. I remember fiddling with voice commands on my computer at least 15 years ago.

Of course, noise cancelling and recognizing particular people speak (which Kinect was reported to be able to do) requires more powerful hardware but that's what SHAPE is for.

Same thing actually : it's easier for the phone to recognize between a dozen pre-defined commands, than having to handle hundreds or thousands of different words. Besides the fact that the recognition is triggered by a button helps a lot too. For speech-only commands like "Xbox do this" or "Playstation do that", the recognition software has to filter out all random words heard through the microphone, and detect only what is meant to be a command. While the phone "knows" everything it will "hear" after the button press is meant to be a voice command.
In short not only does the console need to recognize "play disc" as a command, but it also needs to recognize "Hi Mark" and "Brmmm brmmmm" as "not a command".
 

Mit-

Member
Like the Vita has?

I don't know, sure? If something is on Vita does that mean it is guaranteed for PS4? Are you turning your nose up at me because I am ignorant to the Vita's features because you're assuming I think it's a poor handheld console and dismiss it in general which seems to make the majority of Vita users highly irritable?
 

expletive

Member

SHAPE is the part that the devs have full access to, and it is not used for Kinect, the ASP and AVP are (see blue blocks to the left. SHAPE is also what bkillian was referring to in this post:

I can't speak to what the PS4 has, but the X1 audio block would put the best sound card you can buy to shame. And that's _before_ you add in _any_ of the DSP cores.

This part is not part of SHAPE (the ACP block) but offloads a lot of the CPU as well:
And the DSP core for scheduling removes a huge burden from the CPU requirements for audio processing. If all the chip did was offload effects scheduling and mixing it would easily half the CPU requirements for audio compared to the 360. It does a lot more than that.

From what is known about the PS4 audio chip, it is equivalent to the XMA DECODER block portion of SHAPE, and possibly a little of the ASP block outside of SHAPE (for chat,etc), so its a small part relative to the overall audio hardware in XBO.
 

Biker19

Banned
Nothing to see here, move along :)

Sounds like the XONE has better audio processing HW and that the CPU/GPGPU on PS4 will be needed to match it.

Not exactly, as most of the audio's processing on the Xbox One is being held back for games & is being put towards Kinect 2 more.
 
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