Support NeoGAF

[onQ123]

Ahh, ok.

Still an odd theory, IMO.

Found it.


http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/microsoft-and-sony-working-together/

http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/an-update-to-the-microsoft-and-sony-agreements/

I’ll give an update based on the reply I got from my source. He saw the trouble I was causing and he sent me a message that I should “hold my horses.” There is no way Sony and Microsoft are making a console together. In fact, the communication here isn’t even happening directly face to face. It’s just that Sony and Microsoft are reluctantly agreeing to similar hardware features in their next-gen systems that will put an end to the “arms race/bloodshed”. Apparently, Sony and Microsoft both don’t like that whole race, and the people negotiating in the middle of both of them (the EA’s and Valve’s of the world) definitely don’t like it. It makes their jobs harder. So, basically, it’s getting everyone on board together for common purposes.

Now, I would really leave this part out, but he did keep on emphasizing this, that a big part of Sony and Microsoft “agreeing” to this is their common desire to exclude Nintendo. By making it easy to port between Microsoft and Sony systems, and making it require extra work to port for Nintendo, it will once again leave Nintendo standing in a corner all alone. I hesitated including this because it makes it more of a “drama” and it’s much easier to find out what Sony and Microsoft are doing than it is to find out what Sony and Microsoft are “feeling.” There is definitely nothing on record that will ever prove Sony and Microsoft have said anything of the sort outright. I guess the most likely scenario for this would be if the publishers came to M and S and demanded they build similar hardware because enough is enough already. It takes too much time and resources to require an extra team for each individual port of a game. It would be better if a developer can work on making one game and the code will essentially work for any system. Microsoft and Sony might have insinuated that they’d agree to hardware features that somehow distance themselves from Nintendo.

It might have been hard for Sony and Microsoft to swallow cooperating with each other, but in their common agenda to make it easier for the developers (and a bit more difficult for Nintendo), they’re going along with it.

I think the part about Nintendo is just something that the guy writing about it just wanted to add in because it's a Nintendo based website.

 

[DieH@rd]

http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/an-update-to-the-microsoft-and-sony-agreements/

With these hardware rumors we are hearing about, there is a slim chance that this is happening. Both consoles will be similar, MS will have kinect, Sony will have 15+ internal studios and who knows what for motion controls, 3rd party will have much easier job making games. Could work.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

I’ll give an update based on the reply I got from my source. He saw the trouble I was causing and he sent me a message that I should “hold my horses.” There is no way Sony and Microsoft are making a console together. In fact, the communication here isn’t even happening directly face to face. It’s just that Sony and Microsoft are reluctantly agreeing to similar hardware features in their next-gen systems that will put an end to the “arms race/bloodshed”. Apparently, Sony and Microsoft both don’t like that whole race, and the people negotiating in the middle of both of them (the EA’s and Valve’s of the world) definitely don’t like it. It makes their jobs harder. So, basically, it’s getting everyone on board together for common purposes.

Now, I would really leave this part out, but he did keep on emphasizing this, that a big part of Sony and Microsoft “agreeing” to this is their common desire to exclude Nintendo. By making it easy to port between Microsoft and Sony systems, and making it require extra work to port for Nintendo, it will once again leave Nintendo standing in a corner all alone. I hesitated including this because it makes it more of a “drama” and it’s much easier to find out what Sony and Microsoft are doing than it is to find out what Sony and Microsoft are “feeling.” There is definitely nothing on record that will ever prove Sony and Microsoft have said anything of the sort outright. I guess the most likely scenario for this would be if the publishers came to M and S and demanded they build similar hardware because enough is enough already. It takes too much time and resources to require an extra team for each individual port of a game. It would be better if a developer can work on making one game and the code will essentially work for any system. Microsoft and Sony might have insinuated that they’d agree to hardware features that somehow distance themselves from Nintendo.

It might have been hard for Sony and Microsoft to swallow cooperating with each other, but in their common agenda to make it easier for the developers (and a bit more difficult for Nintendo), they’re going along with it.

Is it wrong that I imaged Nintendo as a cracked-out whore giving two-dollar blow jobs to get by?

Spoiler

;_;

 

[bgassassin]

XD

 

[manzo]

GPU is on the SoC. They cant make that one chip insanely hot by sticking big GPU inside of it. Absolute max is modified 7850/7870 [some 1.5-1.8tflops]. Standalone 7970 is >3.5tflops.
[for perspective, ps3 and x360 are around 0.25 tflops, and they were insanely powerful when they have arrived on the market].

Brilliant!

Even though that gif makes me cry inside.

 

[onQ123]

GPU is on the SoC. They cant make that one chip insanely hot by sticking big GPU inside of it. Absolute max is modified 7850/7870 [some 1.5-1.8tflops]. Standalone 7970 is >3.5tflops.
[for perspective, ps3 and x360 are around 0.25 tflops, and they were insanely powerful when they have arrived on the market].

LOL that gif

 

[Canis lupus]

GPU is on the SoC. They cant make that one chip insanely hot by sticking big GPU inside of it. Absolute max is modified 7850/7870 [some 1.5-1.8tflops]. Standalone 7970 is >3.5tflops.
[for perspective, ps3 and x360 are around 0.25 tflops, and they were insanely powerful when they have arrived on the market].

Damn lol

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

We've gone from AMD to IBM back to AMD, Fusion to ARM to PowerPC to Jaguar, 2 gigs to 4 gigs to 8 gigs to 12 gigs, unified memory to split memory, edram to no edram to some edram, 7000 series gpu to 6000 series back to 7000 series "but still only 1 teraflop". Past having an AMD gpu, and being more conservatively designed, I'm not getting excited about any specs until the rumors start to become consistent and are backed up with fairly up to date leaked MS internal documents.

 

[itsgreen]

I want my fucking XBLA back compat.

 

[bgassassin]

Low TDP CPU = more W for GPU. Thats good news not bad.

While I agree there would be an increase in the TDP budget for the GPU, if they are using an APU with a discrete GPU there would arguably be a decrease in the financial budget for he GPU. In that scenario I think they stick with whatever they originally planned.

We've gone from AMD to IBM back to AMD, Fusion to ARM to PowerPC to Jaguar, 2 gigs to 4 gigs to 8 gigs to 12 gigs, unified memory to split memory, edram to no edram to some edram, 7000 series gpu to 6000 series back to 7000 series "but still only 1 teraflop". Past having an AMD gpu, and being more conservatively designed, I'm not getting excited about any specs until the rumors start to become consistent and are backed up with fairly up to date leaked MS internal documents.

Nah it hasn't been that bad. And from how it sounds even if the latter happened, don't expect to get much from it.

 

[DieH@rd]

Why in the name of nine hells are they all using Jaguar cores?

Those are CPUs that are intended for low powered notebooks and tablets [max ~20W range]. Sure they will customize them, but I cant see that being even remotely close to the cpu power of x360/ps3.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Why in the name of nine hells are they all using Jaguar cores?

Those are CPU that are intended for low powered notebooks and tablets [max ~20W range]. Sure they will customize them, but I cant see that being even remotely close to the cpu power of x360/ps3.

The 360 cpu we ended up with was not the cpu MS intended on, it's just the way things played out. Them going with Jaguar cores (if it's even accurate) is a mix of cost, what can will be ready in time, etc. I'm sure even in it's gimped state, a Jaguar core is a lot more developer friendly than the in-order cpu's we have.

 

[Mr Swine]

Isn't it possible that the CPU race is over on consoles? If developers want to run physics they run it on the GPU like Nvidia does with their Physx. The CPU would be for AI and the OS.

Also why in the world is Sonys console going to have both a APU and a GPU? Why not downclock the GPU if they want to run it cooler in the OS?

 

[Mandoric]

Isn't it possible that the CPU race is over on consoles? If developers want to run physics they run it on the GPU like Nvidia does with their Physx. The CPU would be for AI and the OS.

Also why in the world is Sonys console going to have both a APU and a GPU? Why not downclock the GPU if they want to run it cooler in the OS?

APU+GPU design has been pretty successful for AMD in the laptop market.

 

[onQ123]

Why in the name of nine hells are they all using Jaguar cores?

Those are CPUs that are intended for low powered notebooks and tablets [max ~20W range]. Sure they will customize them, but I cant see that being even remotely close to the cpu power of x360/ps3.

because the GPU is now a GPGPU so it can help out with the CPU work so maybe the power of the CPU isn't as important as it used to be.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Why in the name of nine hells are they all using Jaguar cores?

Those are CPUs that are intended for low powered notebooks and tablets [max ~20W range]. Sure they will customize them, but I cant see that being even remotely close to the cpu power of x360/ps3.

because the role of the cpu is diminishing and they could use the extra heat/power consumption for the gpu? Seems more and more like the cpu will just become a task manager for the gpu.

 

[McHuj]

Why in the name of nine hells are they all using Jaguar cores?

Those are CPUs that are intended for low powered notebooks and tablets [max ~20W range]. Sure they will customize them, but I cant see that being even remotely close to the cpu power of x360/ps3.

Nah, it would crush those CPU's. A 8 core Jaguar based CPU @ 2GHz with 3 GCN Compute Units (192 shaders) @ 500 MHz would have over 300 gigaflops of compute power. (8 cores * 8 float ops/cycle * 2GHz + 192 shaders * 2 ops/clock * 500 MHz = 320 gigaglops).

 

[Mysterious Stranger]

16 cores? WTH!


I have 4 cores and nothing uses it.

 

[DieH@rd]

Nah, it would crush those CPU's. A 8 core Jaguar based CPU @ 2GHz with 3 GCN Compute Units (192 shaders) @ 500 MHz would have over 300 gigaflops of compute power. (8 cores * 8 float ops/cycle * 2GHz + 192 shaders * 2 ops/clock * 500 MHz = 320 gigaglops).

320 gigaglopopses is way underpowered for an entire system in 2012. Every rumor tells us that new consoles have only APU and no dedicated GPU.

 

[thuway]

16 cores? WTH!


I have 4 cores and nothing uses it.

The difference is - developer's now have an incentive to code for a multi-cpu architecture.

 

[pottuvoi]

16 cores 64 threads, running at ~ 50 watts is totally reasonable.

My thought as well.

Just taking Xenon with 16 cores would be reasonably powerful CPU at ~<900M transistors.
After proper redesign it really could be quite a nice beast.

 

[AstroNut325]

Gotz 99 cores but not a line of code!

Seriously folks... this is great! Now I can just refer to the number of cores as the generation again! The 8-bit generation, the 16-bit generation, ect... now we'll have the 16-core generation. Next will likely be 32-core generation.

 

[pottuvoi]

Gotz 99 cores but not a line of code!

Seriously folks... this is great! Now I can just refer to the number of cores as the generation again! The 8-bit generation, the 16-bit generation, ect... now we'll have the 16-core generation. Next will likely be 32-core generation.

Considering that performance scaling of a single threaded CPU has ended, it's not 'that' bad idea..

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

I really wonder why the reason for gimping out on the GPU is - to keep the costs low if Kinect 2 is in every package? It's a bloody shame if so...

For me, I'm only going to buy one console from now on. My 360-PS3-Wii usage percentage was around 90-8-2 this generation, so I could've lived with 360 only easily. Should Sony get the better multiplats next gen, there is absolutely no need for a MS console in my shelf anymore.

The same for me.

I think the PS 4 will be the more powerful machine thanks to Microsoft`s Kinect 2 lovefest. A 1TF GPU would be a major disappointment after an eight year gap and despite gaming 90% of my time on the 360 i would jump ship too and make the PS 4 my new home - and only one.

 

[KageMaru]

My thought as well.

Just taking Xenon with 16 cores would be reasonably powerful CPU at ~<900M transistors.
After proper redesign it really could be quite a nice beast.

64 threads? I would hate to see how they would have the cache set up, not to mention the latency involved with that type of set up.

I could be wrong but I believe there comes a point when having too many threads to feed is a bad thing.

Edit:

The same for me.

I think the PS 4 will be the more powerful machine thanks to Microsoft`s Kinect 2 lovefest. A 1TF GPU would be a major disappointment after an eight year gap and despite gaming 90% of my time on the 360 i would jump ship too and make the PS 4 my new home - and only one.

Love how the people who are all too eager to drop the xbox are the same who are willing to believe rumors as if they are true.

I plan to pick up both, but I'm hoping for meltdowns from people who are already choosing one while hoping their choice is the more powerful system.

 

[Übermatik]

This is bullshit. Terrible, terrible, fan-service bullshit.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Love how the people who are all too eager to drop the xbox are the same who are willing to believe rumors as if they are true.

Exactly. And even if it is true, the 360 is good example of of how being slightly less powerful than the other console doesn't really matter. Also MS banked on a strategy of relying almost completely on 3rd parties for their library, I doubt very much they would do anything that would make their 3rd party offerings next-gen less attractive.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff had that theory.

Yes, for my speculation that everyone finds so off the wall to be practical, both Next generation SoCs core Silicon have to be exactly the same with 2 Jaguar CPU packages and 2 1PPU3SPU CPU packages.

Everyone should now look to other must have features. They both will probably voluntarily comply with third tier Energy Star 35 watts at the menu screen; that impacts the CPU and GPU designs. They all will probably have 16 gig of SSD cache to allow the hard disk to sleep at the menu and to allow for more efficient background processing of video to serve to handhelds.

 

[phosphor112]

Yes, for my speculation that everyone finds so off the wall to be practical, both Next generation SoCs core Silicon have to be exactly the same with 2 Jaguar CPU packages and 2 1PPU3SPU CPU packages.

Everyone should now look to other must have features. They both will probably voluntarily comply with third tier Energy Star 35 watts at the menu screen; that impacts the CPU and GPU designs. They all will probably have 16 gig of SSD cache to allow the hard disk to sleep at the menu and to allow for more efficient background processing of video to serve to handhelds.

Why do you now think they'll use the 1PPU3SPU modules instead of the 1/4 ones? Also, I'm not good at calculating these things...

But wouldn't 2jag 2ppu modules have higher flop output with less energy requirement than 4jag cores?

 

[v1oz]

The 360 cpu we ended up with was not the cpu MS intended on, it's just the way things played out. Them going with Jaguar cores (if it's even accurate) is a mix of cost, what can will be ready in time, etc. I'm sure even in it's gimped state, a Jaguar core is a lot more developer friendly than the in-order cpu's we have.

Really. What did they intend on for the 360 originally?

 

[Graphics Horse]

Jeff had that theory.

I thought that theory was about their secret upcoming 2012 console revisions which are redesigned to share the same chipset?

 

[Proelite]

This is bullshit. Terrible, terrible, fan-service bullshit.

QFT.

Makes you wonder how many articles were bullshit.

The dual gpu rumors.
The semi-accurate rumors.
The 2 pc taped together rumors.
16 core rumors.
Ign 6x 360 rumors.
Nukezilla's outdated info.
The leaked durango devkit with intel and nvidia.

All bullshit. Nukezilla actually had legitimate info, but it was years old.

In faction, I would say Gaf members with leaked info has been far more reliable than journalists, most of which are probably being trolled by "leaks".

 

[DieH@rd]

Can someone give comparison between jaguar and xenon/cell? How much SoCs will they be able to stack?

 

[specialguy]

Can someone give comparison between jaguar and xenon/cell? How much SoCs will they be able to stack?

WTF?

They arent stacking anything (if you're lucky, a dab of memory) let alone any SOC's.

I'm skeptical we'll be looking at SOC's at all.

 

[DieH@rd]

WTF?

They arent stacking anything (if you're lucky, a dab of memory) let alone any SOC's.

I'm skeptical we'll be looking at SOC's at all.

Bad wording, i thought that they will use more than one package of Jaguars on the mobo. I still cant imagine console with 20-30W CPU solution. T_T

 

[specialguy]

Well, some of the rumors we have, and they're just that rumors, but the most credible ones imo seem to involve something like 8 Jaguar cores.

Microsoft would probably want such an odd setup for all the non gaming Apps theyre supposedly focusing on. They could reserve like 3 cores just for Apps.

From what I've heard Jaguars would actually be pretty good for gaming anyway. If MS is using them, it's probably for a good reason. They will probably trounce the Xenon in X360 even on a per core basis, anyway.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Really. What did they intend on for the 360 originally?

If memory serves they were promised 4ghz out-of-order cpu's...

 

[Sulik2]

The same for me.

I think the PS 4 will be the more powerful machine thanks to Microsoft`s Kinect 2 lovefest. A 1TF GPU would be a major disappointment after an eight year gap and despite gaming 90% of my time on the 360 i would jump ship too and make the PS 4 my new home - and only one.

I tentatively agree with this. But if Sony doesn't fix usability on the PS4 I don't know if I will switch. The fact that PSN interface is still worse than the current 360 one is horrifying. The terrible download speeds off PSN, the constant patching and a more unified online system must change for the PS4 to replace Microsoft's console for me next gen as my main machine.

(Although, who am I kidding I will probably own both within the first two years.)

 

[H_Prestige]

I can see Sony and MS agreeing to the same specs if it helps them push out Nintendo and make next gen development a lot easier. It would be smart on two fronts.

I don't know a damn thing about coding, but if they are both using the same AMD combo, would devs essentially the be coding one version of a game?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I thought that theory was about their secret upcoming 2012 console revisions which are redesigned to share the same chipset?

The whole point which I'm sure you remember/understand

Since both will have to emulate their respective consoles and the support chips/GPU are from AMD, all except the SPUs in the PS3 should be identical between Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis, just adding SPUs to the Xbox 361 Silicon should allow the same SoC to emulate a PS3. =>> Microsoft-Sony.com - Sony 1PPU4SPU - Digitimes PS4 rumor must be a PS3 with Kinect like interface. This speculation requires both Microsoft and Sony are going AMD CPU-GPU for next generation and BC will be supported by both with that code VERY similar to the emulation code in Xbox 361 and PS3 4000 chassis respectively using the same two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages in all 4 platforms.

The arguments against this are generally why would they spend money doing this for just power modes for a game console. The point missed is XTV (ATSC 2.0 & DVB hbbTV) -Augmented reality casual games and applications from the XMB side of the PS3 are the NEW market and BIG money maker for both Sony and Microsoft. The Xbox 720 powerpoint points this out multiple times, you just have to understand what it's saying. There will be 800 million new internet connected Homes added to the current 100 million in the next 6 years. They won't be buying new Smart TVs at thousands of dollars but will buy a Sub $200 game console that gives them the same features.

The SimiAccurate article now admitting the Xbox 720 will be X86 rather than PPC and is still called Oban first taped out by IBM Dec 2011 with 10,000 wafers @ 32nm and by March also being made at GloFlo8 skips over the 32nm part. Xbox 720 should be 28nm like the PS4. It's going to be a 2014 design with an ARM processor for Trust Zone DRM and full HSA FSAIL. That is mentioned by AMD as the first SoC and first point at which third party IP can be included in the SoC. The 32nm SOI process SoC being made at IBM and GloFlo is the 32nm Xbox 360 SoC and MAY also be the PS3 SoC. This may explain the massive numbers being produced not that there is a low yield (Remember the Digitimes PS4 rumor has 20 million sold the first year starting in 2012 (must be the PS3 4000 chassis).

PS4 and Xbox 720 should have a similar schedule to Oban with tapeout Dec 2012 first production and mass yield test March 2013 (Beta kits to developers at this time) then second batch with sales to start if everything goes well at the end of 2013 or later if DDR4 is in short supply or anything in the production chain hiccups.

 

[El_Chino]

Has this been posted? http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/09/microsoft-envisions-where-gaming-is-going-and-its-wild.html

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Has this been posted? http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/09/microsoft-envisions-where-gaming-is-going-and-its-wild.html

wow, interesting stuff.

 

[subversus]

Has this been posted? http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/09/microsoft-envisions-where-gaming-is-going-and-its-wild.html

will bomb everywhere except US because this is the only country where people own houses with big living rooms en masse.

But interesting stuff indeed.

 

[Mikeside]

Has this been posted? http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/09/microsoft-envisions-where-gaming-is-going-and-its-wild.html

Xbox Dreamatorium confirmed.

 

[lastplayed]

will bomb everywhere except US because this is the only country where people own houses with big living rooms en masse.

Really?

 

[subversus]

Really?

really.

 

[El_Chino]

Question is if this is a game changer or just another gimmick?

 

[subversus]

Question is if this is a game changer or just another gimmick?

as always it depends on the execution.

 

[El_Chino]

as always it depends on the execution.

Agreed, I just can't picture playing any FPS games such as Halo or CoD with that.

 

[lastplayed]

really.

How big are these living rooms, just out of interest.