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XSEED Translator on why all games don't get dual audio

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Yeah its not as if contractual rights constrain the behaviour of corporations at law and via chilling effect or something, huh

Seeing a weird disregard for licencing issues here, as if they're all just smoke and mirrors

Even as a lawyer, I understand the disregard for licensing issues, because they're so fucking frustrating. The way I look at it, I'm willing to give companies money for something that already exists, and the only reason I can't do that is because some greedy asshole is like "mmm no, I think I want more money," or because they just hate unwashed Americajin. Or, in the case of retro games, because the rights for a re-release are too expensive or nobody knows who owns the rights. So I'm stuck with a lesser product or no product at all, even though I'm willing to pony up, and that's stupid. Be glad I try to buy your shit at all instead of just stealing it. There are so many random reasons for something not getting a domestic release that I imagine strike people as complete nonsense, and that's why "licensing issues" has become slang for "dumb shit."

Uh... yeah. Well, I look at it slightly less childishly than that, but you get the idea. Alcohol is starting to impair my thought process.
 

Stark

Banned
Well, there's your problem.

I don't know you anymore.

That's why I said to each their own. We all have our own preferences.

The ideal situation would be to have dual audio for every release but we make do with what we can. As said above, hopefully future Atelier games get Dual audio back, hopefully Tales games get dual audio eventually, etc. Then everyone wins.

Saten will be happy, too then?
 

Eusis

Member
Hey XSEED I don't need dual-audio just Trails in the Sky SC thanks in advance =]
I wonder whether that'd be technical issues, licensing, or "for fuck's sake it's just 10 minutes of battle voices why do you even care?"

Though they told RPGamer way back dubbing is actually complete for the entire trilogy, so it's just a matter of getting that mountain of text translated.
I agree, it was worse before... way worse
Haha, so you are familiar with them. But yeah, it's something I think people should try to keep in mind, most likely the staff nowadays ARE pretty good whether or not they're doing a good job with that specific game.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Atelier games with dual audio sell 20k in the US. Honestly, the fanbase for these games should be happy these continue to get localized with numbers like that.
That's 20k more than they would have sold though. Alternatively, if they don't care... well, it's not like we really need Dream Host Club (or whatever it was called) brought here. :p

No, that's really not true. In most cases, the voices simply aren't available at all -- no matter how much money we throw at them. If publishers could pay off the studio to extend their licensing to other countries, and that's all there was to it, then I'm pretty sure they would in most cases. I mean, we have very little budget for anything, but I know we certainly would if we could in all but the most extreme cases.

-Tom
Yeah its not as if contractual rights constrain the behaviour of corporations at law and via chilling effect or something, huh

Seeing a weird disregard for licencing issues here, as if they're all just smoke and mirrors

Someone needs to change the way contracts are written in the first place then. I mean, if Nintendo can do dual audio with Fire Emblem, and they are the slowest and most ass-backwards company in Japan, there really is no excuse to not have this shit worked out before the game is even made. If it is the Japanese companies that are to be blamed, then they should be blamed.

Heck, I'm still salty about the weird contract issues that have tied up the Nisemonogatari commentaries, resulting in a crippled American release of the series. :/
 
Honestly the only thing I found pathetic was the notion that I'm supposed to pay money for a game with poor quality dubs because Japan fucked up.

A lot of the dubs are just really poor, sorry. I'm going to be much less likely to buy a game if there is English only and its done poorly. Thats reality - thats honestly how it should work. The idea that I should not care about the game not having a JP track or not care that the dub is mediocre is pretty ridiculous. While I understand where Tom is coming from I just disagree with his overall point.

In Ayesha's case its really bad because a standard was already set in place and they failed to meet it.
A lot of dubs? Maybe I havent been playing enough Japanese games this gen, I thought I was, but most dubs Ive heard have been pretty good to alright. Youre acting like everything is Chaos Wars.
 
Not surprising.

With all the reverse importation fears leading to mandated huge delays where companies can't liscense anime for US distribution until the series has finished airing and been sold on home media in Japan, and giving them only SD video, and the P4A fiasco, I would totally believe it if you told me that Japanese companies set up their contracts to screw over the international market for even the slightest benefit to themselves.
 
Are there frequently massive differences between anime and videogame voice acting contracts? Because Funimation and Crunchyroll seem to have easy access to livestream a ton of properties (Marvelous AQL and Senran Kagura plug).

I imagine it's pretty different especially since anime these days have been more focused on distributing them in the west as well as having promotional materials focused on the west while video games might not always have the idea of localization when they are producing it. It's also less work to livestream something compared to actually have to localize something.
 
Hey XSEED I don't need dual-audio just Trails in the Sky SC thanks in advance =]

How I imagine Tom is like reading that post (especially considering your profession):
iVm3evkjuVLw0.png
 

Stuart444

Member
Not surprising.

With all the reverse importation fears leading to mandated huge delays where companies can't liscense anime for US distribution until the series has finished airing and been sold on home media in Japan, and giving them only SD video, and the P4A fiasco

*curls up into a ball and cries* :(

if I'm being honest I would love to see these contracts one of these days though. Both for anime (for the reason you stated) and for games like this.

But ah well, all we have is speculation I guess.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
That's 20k more than they would have sold though. Alternatively, if they don't care... well, it's not like we really need Dream Host Club (or whatever it was called) brought here. :p




Someone needs to change the way contracts are written in the first place then. I mean, if Nintendo can do dual audio with Fire Emblem, and they are the slowest and most ass-backwards company in Japan, there really is no excuse to not have this shit worked out before the game is even made. If it is the Japanese companies that are to be blamed, then they should be blamed.

Heck, I'm still salty about the weird contract issues that have tied up the Nisemonogatari commentaries, resulting in a crippled American release of the series. :/

I imagine that a lot of it comes down to whether or not the Japanese companies had any intention of releasing a game stateside in the first place. Contracts can be incredibly restrictive with that sort of thing if you want them to be. It's also likely to depend on who's doing the voice work, and the contracts the Japanese publisher has with them, as well. Geographic restrictions, etc.

Nintendo is pretty much a fucking powerhouse. They can just rip up contracts like in the cartoons and that's probably gospel in Japanese law.
 

jello44

Chie is the worst waifu
A lot of dubs? Maybe I havent been playing enough Japanese games this gen, I thought I was, but most dubs Ive heard have been pretty good to alright. Youre acting like everything is Chaos Wars.

Well, when you play pieces of crap like Neptunia, and the VAs clearly don't care about putting out any effort into the role because of how terrible everything else is. You'd probably think the same thing too.
 

Anony

Member
No, that's really not true. In most cases, the voices simply aren't available at all -- no matter how much money we throw at them. If publishers could pay off the studio to extend their licensing to other countries, I'm pretty sure they would in most cases. I mean, we have very little budget for anything, but I know we certainly would if we could in all but the most extreme cases.

-Tom
yes, i understand that smaller companies such was xseed would have difficulty in having the money upfront needed to get the japanese audio track
(maybe attempt in kickstarting money to get the dual audio going, doesnt hurt to try)

i don't understand what you mean by 'the voices simply aren't available at all'
yes, i understand that, say, if the opening song is somehow licensed to be only used in japan, fine, i'm okay with that, use another song (which is the example used in the original post)
but, the way i'm interpreting it is (in regards with the voices, not vocal music or celebrity cameos), either the japanese agencies are demanding too much money for the use of the voices internationally
or the company/publisher in charge of the translation is too cheap (if they can afford it) to buy the rights to use said voices

which is why i specifically mentioned tales, probably the most known jrpg next to ff
they have the money, the tale series is a good seller, yet no jap track
vs a new jrpg like xenoblade, which got the full treatment
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I imagine it's pretty different especially since anime these days have been more focused on distributing them in the west as well as having promotional materials focused on the west while video games might not always have the idea of localization when they are producing it. It's also less work to livestream something compared to actually have to localize something.
Or maybe game acting is considered a ghetto and it's like the opposite of the "American celebrity recording commercials in Japan but only for Japan" thing. lol

(Remember when Harrison Ford was shilling for Uncharted 3? Yeah, that was weird...)
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
How I imagine Tom is like reading that post (especially considering your profession):

Nah, it's Schreier. I think we're all used to his constant jonesing for more Trails at this point. His pleas are like beautiful music to us. ;)

but, the way i'm interpreting it is (in regards with the voices, not vocal music or celebrity cameos), either the japanese agencies are demanding too much money for the use of the voices internationally
or the company/publisher in charge of the translation is too cheap (if they can afford it) to buy the rights to use said voices

Not really. It's more like, the publisher asks the developer to use the original Japanese voices, and the developer just flat-out says, "No. They're not available for use outside Japan. Sorry."

And there's really not much you can do if the developer just flat-out says no. I mean, you're their client, not the other way around. If you try to argue with them, they can just drop you and go with somebody else.

(And again, licensing isn't the ONLY possible issue, either. There are technical/programming issues from time to time as well, as stupid as that may sound... along with any number of other problems, almost all of which are pretty ridiculous and essentially reaffirm the widely-held belief that politics, especially of the business sort, can sometimes be a real pain in the ass!)

-Tom
 

Stuart444

Member
Speaking of Trails, I only started Trails in the Sky a few months back when I bought it... reading all of this makes me want to go back to it now. (Digital as well so can play it on my Vita).

For what it's worth, the start seemed pretty interesting, probably would played more if I didn't have other games I started at the same time XD.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
yes, i understand that smaller companies such was xseed would have difficulty in having the money upfront needed to get the japanese audio track
(maybe attempt in kickstarting money to get the dual audio going, doesnt hurt to try)

i don't understand what you mean by 'the voices simply aren't available at all'
yes, i understand that, say, if the opening song is somehow licensed to be only used in japan, fine, i'm okay with that, use another song (which is the example used in the original post)
but, the way i'm interpreting it is (in regards with the voices, not vocal music or celebrity cameos), either the japanese agencies are demanding too much money for the use of the voices internationally
or the company/publisher in charge of the translation is too cheap (if they can afford it) to buy the rights to use said voices

which is why i specifically mentioned tales, probably the most known jrpg next to ff
they have the money, the tale series is a good seller, yet no jap track
vs a new jrpg like xenoblade, which got the full treatment

No, it really could be something unrelated to money. Contracts with voice actors, from my understanding, tend to be pretty clear on temporal and geographic restrictions. If I'm not mistaken, the Silent Hill HD collection had to recast Heather because her contract had expired, and they couldn't find the VA (maybe the game was real?) You can't just throw money at that kind of problem.
 
Speaking of Trails, I only started Trails in the Sky a few months back when I bought it... reading all of this makes me want to go back to it now. (Digital as well so can play it on my Vita).

For what it's worth, the start seemed pretty interesting, probably would played more if I didn't have other games I started at the same time XD.

go and play it, then you'll join the "Where the fuck is SC?" club
 

Eusis

Member
Nah, it's Schreier. I think we're all used to his constant jonesing for more Trails at this point. His pleas are like beautiful music to us. ;)
So I guess instead it represents the programmers at Falcom faced with the prospect of injecting the localizations into 5 more games! Each bigger than FC!
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I wonder how this differs with Japanese anime, movies, and TV, which usually are released with dual audio in North America.
 

Takao

Banned
A lot of dubs? Maybe I havent been playing enough Japanese games this gen, I thought I was, but most dubs Ive heard have been pretty good to alright. Youre acting like everything is Chaos Wars.

Koei-Tecmo should totally give one of these games a Chaos Wars dub. I'd buy it, and the ensuing shitstorm would be much more entertaining than that game probably would be.

I wonder how this differs with Japanese anime, movies, and TV, which usually are released with dual audio in North America.

I've heard for modern Tokusatsu (live action special effects shows like Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, etc.) it's very difficult to release them here for similar reasons.
 

Eusis

Member
I wonder how this differs with Japanese anime, movies, and TV, which usually are released with dual audio in North America.
I suspect anime's USUALLY approached differently, and it may be that demand and ease of input make it a lot easier to keep it there. But even then we have weird cases like Kodocha above, or Mobile Suit Gundam. I also recall renting the newer Vampire Hunter D movie only to discover there wasn't a Japanese voice track at all, but I think that was not only done America first but it really was an anime I think I actually enjoyed watching in English more than I would have in Japanese.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
I suspect anime's USUALLY approached differently, and it may be that demand and ease of input make it a lot easier to keep it there. But even then we have weird cases like Kodocha above, or Mobile Suit Gundam. I also recall renting the newer Vampire Hunter D movie only to discover there wasn't a Japanese voice track at all, but I think that was not only done America first but it really was an anime I think I actually enjoyed watching in English more than I would have in Japanese.

Actually, VHD: Bloodlust was originally done in English. Like, it was intentional. Later, they added in Japanese audio for a director's cut version of the film that was never released Stateside.

God, I want that movie on BD so bad.

Not to mention Trails SC!
 

Eusis

Member
Actually, VHD: Bloodlust was originally done in English. Like, it was intentional. Later, they added in Japanese audio for a director's cut version of the film that was never released Stateside.

God, I want that movie on BD so bad.

Not to mention Trails SC!
Yeah, perhaps I should have said that instead of "America first", but it's probably also why I feel it may've been a better fit for English: it was actually made that way! Kind of like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, they have great dubs possibly partially because there isn't a Japanese language track at all.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Yeah, perhaps I should have said that instead of "America first", but it's probably also why I feel it may've been a better fit for English: it was actually made that way! Kind of like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, they have great dubs possibly partially because there isn't a Japanese language track at all.

I refuse to buy Dark Souls because of the lack of Japanese VAs.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
Yeah, perhaps I should have said that instead of "America first", but it's probably also why I feel it may've been a better fit for English: it was actually made that way! Kind of like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, they have great dubs possibly partially because there isn't a Japanese language track at all.

This reminds me of one of the strangest occurrences of a game being dubbed out of necessity rather than choice: Clock Tower 2. Not the game WE know as "Clock Tower 2: The Struggle Within," which was actually a side-story in Japan called "Clock Tower: Ghost Head"... but the actual Clock Tower 2, which we got over here as "Clock Tower" on the PS1 (confusing, I know!).

The original Japanese version of the game was recorded entirely in English with Japanese subtitles, largely due to the characters and settings all being European. But for whatever reason (presumably licensing), the original voice-acting was unavailable for use when the game was released stateside, so the whole game was redubbed.

That's right -- an all-English voice track, featuring actual, professional English-speaking voice-actors (not even Engrish!), had to be re-dubbed due to licensing issues.

And sadly, the general fan consensus is that the original English voiceovers were overall much better than the North American voiceovers.

Here's a comparison of the openings to both the Japanese and North American versions, if anyone's interested in hearing the differences for themselves:

Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_hT2uOgPPI
North America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=216gPSY51dU

Personally, I think the North American version is better -- and the volume levels are certainly much improved! But I still find it odd that this game had to be redubbed at all, and it's very indicative of the sort of thing I'm describing.

-Tom
 

Eusis

Member
This reminds me of one of the strangest occurrences of a game being dubbed out of necessity rather than choice: Clock Tower 2. Not the game WE know as "Clock Tower 2: The Struggle Within," which was actually a side-story in Japan called "Clock Tower: Ghost Head"... but the actual Clock Tower 2, which we got over here as "Clock Tower" on the PS1 (confusing, I know!).

The original Japanese version of the game was recorded entirely in English with Japanese subtitles, largely due to the characters and settings all being European. But for whatever reason (presumably licensing), the original voice-acting was unavailable for use when the game was released stateside, so the whole game was redubbed.

That's right -- an all-English voice track, featuring actual, professional English-speaking voice-actors (not even Engrish!), had to be re-dubbed due to licensing issues.

And sadly, the general fan consensus is that the original English voiceovers were overall much better than the North American voiceovers.

Here's a comparison of the openings to both the Japanese and North American versions, if anyone's interested in hearing the differences for themselves:

Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_hT2uOgPPI
North America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=216gPSY51dU

Personally, I think the North American version is better -- and the volume levels are certainly much improved! But I still find it odd that this game had to be redubbed at all, and it's very indicative of the sort of thing I'm describing.

-Tom
Well, we had Baten Kaitos as an example, but it's not as extreme and it was probably because ONLY the opening was in English, with the rest of the game in Japanese and thus it was a consistency issue. For reference, the opening in English versions and the opening in the Japanese version. Still, it's probably one of the most extreme examples of showing how a dub actually CAN trash it relative to the Japanese original, though in this case they should've tried (harder?) to get the same people and studio that did the Japanese opening to do the full English version.

... Come to think of it, the woman at the start in the Japanese one sounds like the one for the narration of Dark Souls's opening.

EDIT: And the Clock Tower redub DOES sound pretty good relative to the Japanese one, equal or possibly superior. Definitely not like Baten Kaitos.
 
Not surprising. It's not quite as common in the anime industry, but it happens. Of course, it's not a valid excuse for a bad localization, but we all know that.
 
What I don't understand is why they don't simply renegotiate the original contract to have intenational use for their spoken dialogue? Obviously, money is an issue - but when you're negotiating money to someone, and the option is - "here is extra money for work you've already done, the alternative is that we simply dub english over it and remove the original voice over."

It's a pretty strong bargaining chip to say here is free money, it's not much - but if you don't agree to it then we'll simply redub and you get nothing at all.
 

Ashkeloth

Member
In all honesty, I'd assumed most people had already figured this out, but perhaps not.

I still complain about it whenever a big Japanese release doesn't get dual audio since it feels off to me when anything vaguely 'anime' speaks English, but usually after a few hours of hearing the voices I completely forget the issue. It only resurfaces when an English VA has to rush through a line or deliver it poorly to fit lip synch.

Regardless, it's nice to see someone just come out and say the truth, even if it's relatively obvious. The truth just hurts in this instance.
 

Orayn

Member
The solution is clearly for more Japanese developers to have a huge crush on the West like From Software and have their games' original voice tracks be in English, like Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Metal Wolf Chaos. (Not really a solution, but I think it's a rather neat example which happens to avoid these conflicts because the whole job is often assigned to a single NA/EU production company.)
 

duckroll

Member
What I don't understand is why they don't simply renegotiate the original contract to have intenational use for their spoken dialogue? Obviously, money is an issue - but when you're negotiating money to someone, and the option is - "here is extra money for work you've already done, the alternative is that we simply dub english over it and remove the original voice over."

It's a pretty strong bargaining chip to say here is free money, it's not much - but if you don't agree to it then we'll simply redub and you get nothing at all.

The issue is complicated by several factors, depending on the product in question. First of all, renegotiating with individual cast members is an awful idea and something pretty much no US publisher will want to do. You will be flushing money down the toilet paying lawyers and translators just to potentially secure deals which will result in you paying out more money. It doesn't sound like a very wise business move for something which ultimately has limited impact on the sales of a game. Poor use of resources.

Sometimes there's nothing to renegotiate, since the contracts would have been arranged on a project basis, and the agents involved are no longer interested in revisiting prior work once it is done. Their time could be better spent looking for more work for their clients instead.

Another factor to consider is that XSEED works from the perspective of a company licensing games from the original publishers, and they are not the original publisher to begin with. It can be much easier to rework a deal if your company originally made those deals in the first place, but when you're a licensee those contracts might not even be available to you. The licensor can simply tell you that certain materials and content are not available for international sales, and that's that. Trying to work around it would take up valuable resources and still lead nowhere.
 

ampere

Member
Interesting read. I wasn't aware that the lack of original language audio was ever a case of a contract not allowing voices/songs to be used outside of Japan (or possibly another country).
 

Swifty

Member
I wonder how this differs with Japanese anime, movies, and TV, which usually are released with dual audio in North America.
I'm really curious about this as well. Do the production companies involved in North America that handle Japanese film just have more muscle to do what duckroll described?
 
That's right -- an all-English voice track, featuring actual, professional English-speaking voice-actors (not even Engrish!), had to be re-dubbed due to licensing issues.
And here we have found the obvious answer to every woe of Japanese voice actor fan ever.

Dub every game ever in Japanese five times.

My logic is flawless.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
What I don't understand is why they don't simply renegotiate the original contract to have intenational use for their spoken dialogue? Obviously, money is an issue - but when you're negotiating money to someone, and the option is - "here is extra money for work you've already done, the alternative is that we simply dub english over it and remove the original voice over."

It's a pretty strong bargaining chip to say here is free money, it's not much - but if you don't agree to it then we'll simply redub and you get nothing at all.

I think we'd ALL like to know the answer to that question -- fans and industry representatives alike. ;)

Best answer I can come up with comes with an anecdote. As many of you probably know, I used to live and work in Japan as an assistant junior high English teacher through the JET Programme. At the time, I had a lot of fellow non-Japanese friends, many of whom came to Japan along with their significant others.

One such friend had pretty much never experienced ANYTHING Japanese before -- he had absolutely no exposure to the culture or society before tagging along with his girlfriend(-->fiancee-->wife) on her JET experience. And because of this, he, more than anyone else I knew, was constantly blown away by all the strange and foreign things Japan had to offer. One of his popular quotes was "Ah, Japan!", which he would say anytime he was introduced to something you just never see in the U.S. (like, say, vending machines that dispense hot lunches).

His other quote, which he said anytime we would ever suggest doing something outside of our normal routine, was: "But... it's never been done before!" (imagine speaking this line with sarcasm literally DRIPPING from every syllable).

And this latter quote came about because of one aspect of modern Japanese society that I think anyone who's ever lived there will be quite familiar with: an absolute reliance on routine.

See, Japanese society is big on tradition, and Japanese social groups tend to establish new traditions very quickly. And once a tradition has been established, it's sort of an unwritten rule that you do NOT defy it. It's kind of like how people always say you can never customize an order at a Japanese restaurant -- you tell them "hold the tomatoes," and they'll just stare at you like you're crazy!

This applies to just about every facet of daily life in modern Japanese society, and accounts for a lot of the bureaucracy people often cite when describing Japanese business practices. If you ever stop to ask a Japanese businessman WHY he insists on doing something a certain way, there's a very, very good chance he won't have any real answer for you -- but unfortunately, there's also a very, VERY HIGH chance that you'll make him EXTREMELY uncomfortable by asking.

And yes, sometimes these sorts of questions do need to be asked, and "traditions" need to be broken or revised. But dealing with Japanese businesses can often be a delicate dance, and you never want to be too pushy if you're denied a request, because doing so could make the company feel uncomfortable dealing with you, and potentially jeopardize any future dealings you might have with them.

...Note that this is all armchair theory on my part, based on two years spent in suburban Japan a decade ago, so I could be totally off-base here. But if I had to guess as to why Japanese companies are so hesitant to change the ways they deal with international voice-acting licenses... well, I think my friend Mike put it best: "It's never been done before!" ;)

-Tom
 

blanco21

Member
You'd think Square-Enix would be able to do it at least though. They also catch the most flack for not having dual-audio too IMO.
 
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