Gonna echo this. Looks like someone didn't play it.
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"But It's Not Historically Accurate!"
- Thread starter jmood88
- Start date
Gonna echo this. Looks like someone didn't play it.
WrenchNinja
Member
He's of Sri Lankan descent, which is more South Indian than anything else.
I might actually have to check out The Order hearing about this Indian character.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Exactly, Lakshmi as more screen time then Igraine, Lancelot and Percival.
Flame Lord
Member
Sounds to me like you're just trying to attack the game at all costs. She claimed the cast was white washed, but it turns out that it isn't, and the minorities in it are major characters. I don't see how they're wrong in wanting to defend it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Considering that she wears a rebel style outfit it would very clearly be a spoiler. Like i don't understand why you think there's some conspiracy here.
Stereogatari
Banned
He was using the archaic version of "East Indian" which is analogous with South Asian, since "West Indian" refers to people of the Caribbean.
They didn't show Raiden in MGS 2 marketing, either, because it was a spoiler. The same reason they didn't show Lakshmi for The Order's marketing.
RipperGrim
Member
looks to me people have chosen the wrong game to prove their points lol.
I remember the same kind of arguments being made for Kingdom come deliverance, I personally don't think it's the biggest issue around, people just think of white people in those times and considering it's a game based on fiction, expecting to be accurate is hopeful at best, I mean there are Werewolves running around in the Order.
Give War A Chance
Member
She is. Did you play the game?
If they explained who she is, that would spoil a critical element of the storyline in the game.
They're willfully missing the point to defend the game.
Period. Really, there's not a single word to add.
Marketing material has shown close to nothing. The reasons have been given, so tell me please, how is this a problem?
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I take it you're in the "Bayonetta is the most sexist portrayal of women" crowd which always seems to ignore the fact she was designed by a woman?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You're willfully ignoring the fact that that the example used to prove the point was a very bad one while also making blanket statements about the actual people saying so. There are plenty and I mean plenty of valid criticisms for the order. You can check my post history for many of my criticisms of it. But inclusion is not one of them.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
A game you haven't even played and know close to nothing about.
I get the point, I just don't think the ends justify the means in situations like this and lying just poisons the well.
ArkkAngel007
Member
It's not even a defense. It's a correction. Kind of pathetic that so many people on the site can only look at things in that sort of way; needing it to be some juvenile framework of discussion of haters and fanboys with nothing between.
Edit: Game could use more diversity probably, though I'd have to go back through and see how the higher populated area (poorer, rebel-held White Chapel district/area) handles it. There's a dock area, but you only see one non-combatant NPC there, and all/most of the enemies at that point I think are caucasian.
SuperSonic1305
Member
And what exactly are you trying to do?
Why would that be a spoiler? If people didn't know what rebels were, then an out of context shot of someone in the uniform wouldn't mean anything and if they did, then how would they know that the character was a major part of the plot from a single shot?
Ah the good ole "a woman can't be misogynist" defense.
There's ways to defend Bayonnetta's portrayal but that's really not a good one.
So you complain about not enough minorities in The Order, a lot of people point out that the 2 most important characters in the game besides Galahad are minorities. And you think the developers aren't giving away major story spilers in ads because they don't like minorities?
Or maybe people get the point while still correcting misinformation about the game?
Who is saying that every character needs to be non-white?
People knew what the rebels were. It's part of the marketing material.
Primethius
Banned
I'd say the minority character in Order played a larger part in the story then did the other knights.
Of course I haven't played it. I didn't realize the Order was a must play game. As a person of Indian descent, I still don't get to see my color represented in any type of marketing.
Consider it from my perspective.
GIANKRATOS
Member
Anton Sugar
Member
Just because a woman designed a character doesn't mean the character can't be sexist or misogynist.
Bayonetta is, across the board, complicated to discuss from a sexist/feminist perspective. I don't necessarily think there is a black and white "right" way to view the character.
Thanks for explaining. I wasn't familiar with any of The Order's marketing, outside of "Old London people with mustaches, armor, and cool guns".
captainpat
Member
A women worked on it but it's all filtered through kamiya, right?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I suppose you think they should've spoiled the part about
vampires
even more
It's not a must play game, trust me.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Changing the goal posts. Now you're just quibbling over marketing details rather than the actual issue of representation in games.
So? Bayo is still a female power fantasy character designed by a woman that has been slut-shamed by people who likely have never even played the game.
Try telling that to the people who unequivocally voice their disgust about the character
I love this argument. "She was designed by a woman so now way she could be sexist". Was she animated by a woman as well?
Give War A Chance
Member
EDIT: Nevermind. This thread is past attempting to make logical points.
This whole thing has gone so far up its own ass at this point, it's unbelivable.
Yeah it's funny watching people going through all these verbal gymnastics trying to pin this on The Order he he.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
A lot of you seem to be missing the main point. It's not that games are required to have minorities or diversity or that sort of thing, it's that using "historical accuracy" as a justification is almost always flawed because
1. The games often has fantastical elements, which throw any semblance of accuracy out the window or,
2. History shows those regions were actually more diverse than the games would have you believe. Especially if we're dealing with large regions or population hubs/trade cities
1. The games often has fantastical elements, which throw any semblance of accuracy out the window or,
2. History shows those regions were actually more diverse than the games would have you believe. Especially if we're dealing with large regions or population hubs/trade cities
Primethius
Banned
But isn't that changing the base argument. We went from lack of minority representation to lack of minority representation in marketing.
The fact is that Order has two prominent minority characters. One of them plays a large part in the story, arguably larger then any other character aside from Galahad.
captainpat
Member
It's not like you have to focus solely on the Order
AmuroChan
Member
Marketing aside, The Order is one of the few games where Indian characters are central to the plot of the story. So if that's something you care about, then the game is a must-play for you.
Stereogatari
Banned
I'm a Turk and I don't get to see my colour (well we're white I guess, but still) referenced in any type of marketing either. Well except Hakan, but he's more of a beast-type character and less of a normal representation.
How will Western/Japanese game developers make us all happy?
This is what happens when people get overly-defensive about a game.
The point of the article, and my first post, is that people will constantly use the "historical accuracy" argument to justify the lack of non-whites in games. Prior to The Order coming out, there were a lot of people in here defending the lack of non-white characters in the world (as people keep saying, the two Indian characters who appear were not shown in any marketing materials) by making comments based not on historical fact but on a whitewashing of history that is present in popular culture. It's not a criticism that is limited to The Order but it is the most recent game in which this has come up, which is why it was mentioned.
Give War A Chance
Member
If you're going to make an argument about something, it would be wise to at least know what you're talking about. Are you the type likes to use words that you don't know the definition to? It's not a good look, for anyone.
Also, super honest question from one minority to another (I imagine); how did you get into gaming if you only play games with characters that look like you? Being a black dude myself, there's absolutely no shot I would have become a gamer if I only played games with main characters that looked like me, and even in games with characters that looked like me... there's no way in hell they were going to MARKET the game with those characters.
EDIT: I may have misread your comment, and if I did, I apologize for that. I read it as you saying you didn't play The Order because you weren't represented in the game/marketing for the game.
She's not introduced proper until about 1/3 of the way in, and it's a secret, essentially. So no, that would've spoiled it and who she was.
If there's a sequel, she'll likely be in the promo material, considering how the events play out.
Quit reaching.
ArkkAngel007
Member
People know who the Rebels are.
The original argument was that the game didn't have much in the way of representation. That was corrected. Suddenly the goal post was moved to marketing. Marketing for a game that was incredibly light on content, even taking into consideration how short the game is.
Part of the mystery is who these rebels are, who is organizing them, and why do they seem tied with the half-breeds that The Order deal with. Showing that character would give away some of that, and most if not all of her scenes and such don't leave much wiggle room to show her off without it giving away one of the beat changes in the game.
I get it, I really do. But it's not the right game to really be going at in this case.
There's a funny case with more modern westerns being criticized of "affirmative action" for including black characters, when in fact that's more historically accurate and it's all the classic westerns from the 20th century being so whitewashed gave people a skewed perspective on the setting.
So again, how would an out of context shot of a person in a revel uniform reveal that the person was a major part of the plot?
You don't get to post an article with factual inaccuracies and call people defensive when they point it out.
Hence, as I said, poisoning the well of your argument with falsities.
see this:
Primethius
Banned
You raise a very valid point but I don't think that's what the article was actually suggesting, unless I misread. Which is the only reason I tried to clear up the whole lack of minorities.
Looks to me like you're desperately trying to find a reason to be offended.