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[Stereogatari]

And yet you and the author conveniently ignore the "historical accuracy" argument when it is used in games set in China / Japan (Dynasty Warriors, Romance of the 3 kingdoms, Samurai Warriors, Sleeping Dogs, Yakuza, etc). So... I guess those games get a pass even though they are made by, and starring, the majority race of a foreign country that have minority populations in them that aren't being represented?

Well said.

 

[Floridian]

Thread backfire. I'm not understanding The Order references.

 

[Give War A Chance]

This thread went from 0 to backfire faster than a Ronda Rousey title defense.

 

[jmood88]

And yet you and the author conveniently ignore the "historical accuracy" argument when it is used in games set in feudal China / Japan. So... I guess those games get a pass even though they are made by, and starring, the majority race of a foreign country.

If you have a problem with a game not being diverse enough, then feel free to discuss it. It's not my responsibility to make every complaint that some may have, disingenuous as those complaints may be.

 

[Handy Fake]

Oh please, stop with this changing goal posts nonsense.

'Woman still get lower pay than men'

'We gave you the right to vote, now stop changing goal posts'

It literally adds nothing.
**

Sure we can criticize Kingdom Come: Deliverance but the top guy developing the game is huge gamergate supporter. No way anything can be changed when he's at the help

I'd change that ** bit, it's verging on insinuating racism.

 

[Fury451]

I guess brown people are only good for plot twists, but we can't actually represent them in any trailers or whatever.

If you actually believe this is what the game was doing you are just being willfully ignorant.

 

[MCN]

they represent justice. They are the people the city trust. They are accepted, they are trusted, they have faith placed in them. They are all universally white and almost exclusively male

Much like Victorian London, then. London in the late 19th century wasn't exactly a hotbed of social equality. Sure, people of different races existed, but like fuck were they treated equally.

 

[Dunan]

I can't see where some of this is coming from. I thought that The Order did a great job integrating the diversity of the era into the game: there was at least one black Knight at the table, and there were two great Indian female characters. How often do we see Indian women having such big roles in video games? I say set the sequel in India; what a ride that would be.

 

[SystemBug]

Yeah, it's not like they're in the main focus of the entire second half of the game! Those stupid devs are just using brown people to for plot twists! Shame on them for not revealing spoilers in the marketing!

Spoiler

Lol what a load of shit.

I'm echoing what everybody who has played the game is saying. Oh we can't show the brown person because she spoils the plot. How does showing a brown person ruin a plot? Nobody is telling the trailer cutting team to reveal her motivations

 

[EBE]

It seems like a weird argument to make if you say most people get their historical knowledge from films when the historical genre is the least likely to succeed at the box office. People just dont see these movies in large enough numbers to create the kinds of perceptions the author says exist.

Anyway, the bigger problem with the article is that games aren't histories. Many never attempt to be. They're fictions: tales, fables, myths, etc. The author sort of touches upon this by labelling a few notable titles as "historically inspired"... But then proceeds to chastise them for not going all the way in their accuracy? The fact of the matter is that no work of history, factual or fictional, will ever be truly accurate, and not out of some postmodern agenda, either. Things will always be excluded from the narrative, else the work would be a 1to1 recreation of the past, which is of course impossible unless you have a time machine. You wouldn't expect a mapmaker to make a truly accurate map - such a map would be the landmass itself. Works of historical fiction have to necessarily be "selectively accurate."

The issue of diversity is certainly one that deserves that attention, but I don't think this is the best way to go about that.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

If you have a problem with a game not being diverse enough, then feel free to discuss it. It's not my responsibility to make every complaint that some may have, disingenuous as those complaints may be.

Oh, ok. So you just have a problem with games made by a majority of white people, for an audience of majority white people, featuring majority white casts. Any other complaints, such as when the same is true of a game made in Japan, are simply disingenuous.

 

[Fury451]

I'm echoing what everybody who has played the game is saying. Oh we can't show the brown person because she spoils the plot. How does showing a brown person ruin a plot? Nobody is telling the trailer cutting team to reveal her motivations

Lol. You really don't get it, and clearly don't want to.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I'm echoing what everybody who has played the game is saying. Oh we can't show the brown person because she spoils the plot. How does showing a brown person ruin a plot? Nobody is telling the trailer cutting team to reveal her motivations

People aren't morons. We knew what the rebel uniforms looked like from the marketing. She's with Galahad in like every scene. It would be a pretty damn obvious spoiler point to put in a trailer.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

No, that was not I, or the quote I posted, said. What was posted was about the Knights, who were presented as all white even though there was at least one black knight in the group.

You weren't speaking of the knights, but of the overall state of London in the game as if there was no diversity. The article did, but it ignored the representation that was present.

Sir Morien btw is likely not alive, neither are Sefir, Segwarides, and Palamedes. There are only

Spoiler

2 figures supposedly from Arthurian Legend that are still around. One of which we don't know who it is, though popular theory suggests Merlin.

The knights in the game are folks who took up those titles, like office seats. Some are still centuries old, but not those same iconic figures whose names they operate under.

 

[IvorB]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

Maybe because this situation represents the reality of what race relations were like in Victorian London. And it's a reality that the content creators decided to carry through in their work. Maybe by including it they get you to contemplate this reality in such a way as you clearly have and, so, provide commentary on a key part of our history.

 

[jmood88]

Here's why it's important to pick the right examples: you end up throwing shit at the wrong house.

In fact, it's such a wrong house that when the door swings open to see why a mob is outside of his door, you realize it's one of the very same people who marched with you before.

In essence, it starts in-fighting. Look at what's going on in this topic right now. You have a handful of people preforming mental gymnastics to make this work, outright denying reality and real, empirical evidence itself. Whether that's their personality or not isn't part of this discussion (I mean, it's part of the issue, but still).

The real point is somebody didn't play the game, posted about it, and started a wonderful shitstorm while games with actual problems sneak on by. Hell, it's difficult to discuss the topic at hand in general when the progenitor looks like they have no clue what they are talking about.

I agree with the main points, but it's imperative that people don't shit sling at the nearest most popular game. Then it becomes more about hits than journalism.

No, this is all about people not reading what was actually said but getting defensive because a game they like got criticized. The article wasn't written to just complain about The Order, it was brought up as the most recent example (and, once again, it wasn't said that every character in the game was white).

 

[akidnamededdy]

Oh please, stop with this changing goal posts nonsense.

'Woman still get lower pay than men'

'We gave you the right to vote, now stop changing goal posts'

It literally adds nothing.

I guess brown people are only good for plot twists, but we can't actually represent them in any trailers or whatever.

So like...if the character was white, would it be okay that she wasn't in any of the trailers? Or a white man?

Are you really trying to like...scold a developer for including a minority female as a super important character in a game without screaming it from the rooftops? Is "now with minorities!" an important bullet point these days?

I don't even know anymore.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's not as if I don't understand the incredibly clever and subtle point the game is making, but you seem to mistake what I mean by "face" of justice. I did not say that they are actually just. I said that they represent justice. They are the people the city trust. They are accepted, they are trusted, they have faith placed in them. They are all universally white and almost exclusively male while the rebel leaders are female poc. It's a very clear "Us" vs "Them" only to pretend to have an ah-ha moment of, "No, it was really a different Us and you should be with Them and aren't we clever."

Again, I get the point. It's not particularly elusive.

Actually, I enjoyed the game enough to feel like we can have intelligent nuanced discussions about its creative choices, but I guess you're right. Let's get back to talking about its length and quick time events. That would be a much better conversation to have (again).

Uhhh, yea, once again false assumption. Literally only the beginning of the game is where people seem to put any trust in the order, and even that's thrown out the window after the first level when the police coms in and basically says "We got this." The Order is portrayed as having little authority in all matters outside of the actual lycan problem. And only two of the rebels are portrayed as having color, the rest all have basically the same faces over and over. I'm not even saying or implying that it's clever like you so passive aggressively imply that I am.

No, this is all about people not reading what was actually said but getting defensive because a game they like got criticized. The article wasn't written to just complain about The Order, it was brought up as the most recent example (and, once again, it wasn't said that every character in the game was white).

I agree was what was said, I just don't agree with bad examples.

 

[tuxfool]

At no point have I claimed that the game is historically accurate, I, and the author, we're talking about how historical accuracy has been used to justify whitewashing settings in games.

Then Stop. Move on from the Order, it isn't helping your case. Please use another example.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I guess brown people are only good for plot twists, but we can't actually represent them in any trailers or whatever.

Lakshmi might be the second most prominent character in the game after Galahad but because she wasn't shown in trailers, you're implying racism?

Keep digging that hole, it's quite entertaining.

 

[GobFather]

I'm echoing what everybody who has played the game is saying. Oh we can't show the brown person because she spoils the plot. How does showing a brown person ruin a plot? Nobody is telling the trailer cutting team to reveal her motivations

She wasn't shown NOT because she was BROWN, it was BECAUSE SHE is important to a the STORY'S SPOILER. There is a difference, you are pointing at racisim, when there isn't.....

 

[AmuroChan]

No, that was not I, or the quote I posted, said. What was posted was about the Knights, who were presented as all white even though there was at least one black knight in the group.

Lucan is half black and he's the knight you spend the most time with in the second half of the game.

 

[jmood88]

You weren't speaking of the knights, but of the overall state of London in the game as if there was no diversity. The article did, but it ignored the representation that was present.

That knight btw is likely not alive. There are only

Spoiler

2 figures supposedly from Arthurian Legend that are still around. One of which we don't know who it is, though popular theory suggests Merlin.

The knights in the game are folks who took up those titles, like office seats.

I was speaking about an argument someone on this site made about werewolves in London being more realistic during this time than black people. This was from a person who was anticipating the game and was justifying the lack of non-white people being shown prior to the game's release.

 

[TheSpoiler]

No, this is all about people not reading what was actually said but getting defensive because a game they like got criticized. The article wasn't written to just complain about The Order, it was brought up as the most recent example (and, once again, it wasn't said that every character in the game was white).

You are being completely reductive to the argument I posted, but it's pretty obvious why.

 

[Foggy]

So pick a game that actually does it as an example, then.

It's prudent to pick your battles. This clearly isn't one as there are so many other clear cut examples out there.

 

[Fury451]

No, this is all about people not reading what was actually said but getting defensive because a game they like got criticized. The article wasn't written to just complain about The Order, it was brought up as the most recent example (and, once again, it wasn't said that every character in the game was white).

No, it's not.

If that's what you think people are doing you are way off base. It's because the arguments presented against The Order specifically are wrong, whether you like the game or not.

The article chose a poor example, even if it was the most recent one to "spark the thought"; there are much better ones that the article more accurately reflects out there.

 

[Give War A Chance]

I'm echoing what everybody who has played the game is saying. Oh we can't show the brown person because she spoils the plot. How does showing a brown person ruin a plot? Nobody is telling the trailer cutting team to reveal her motivations

What are you even advocating? Just in the middle of the trailer, show a clip of a brown person, with no other reason than just to show them? No explanation of why she's being shown, or who she is, or what her motivations are. Just *BAM-HERE-SHE-IS* and that's it? That seems ludicrous.

 

[Mael]

Oh, ok. So you just have a problem with games made by a majority of white people, for an audience of majority white people, featuring majority white casts. Any other complaints about representation are simply disingenuous.

Yes clearly white people are the only audience the western gaming industry cares about.

 

[Xando]

If you have a problem with a game not being diverse enough, then feel free to discuss it. It's not my responsibility to make every complaint that some may have, disingenuous as those complaints may be.

Oh, so you are for diversity but only if it fits you?

 

[Crossing Eden]

She wasn't shown NOT because she was BROWN, it was BECAUSE SHE is important to a the STORY'S SPOILER. There is a difference, you are pointing at racisim, when there isn't.....

Exactly.

 

[akidnamededdy]

It's prudent to pick your battles. This clearly isn't one as there are so many other clear cut examples out there.

Oh definitely, which is why I'm so dumbfounded that this person is so stuck on The Order.

 

[aly]

But the point that the article is making is that all of the members of The Order are white. It specifically talks about the Knights of the Round.

That is to say the people who are respected members of the institution, the heroic face of, um, order and justice were all presumed white (and mostly male) as the "default" state of being. Because white man is essentially "neutral" in media short-hand when that should not be the case.

While there are certainly prominent poc in the game, they are all "outsiders" who are considered suspicious until they gradually earn trust and respect. This makes it seem as if their not being white is in some ways intended to reinforce their difference and contrast them with the rest of the cast. They are clearly signified as Other until we learn that they were heroes all along, what a clever twist.

The point being made is there is no good reason that the people within the institution had to all be white. We do not need to mark people who aren't white as being "outside" or "different" and "not one of the group" or some special exception that will (and must) prove themselves by the end. White does not need to be the default canvas, with any people of color only appearing if they are given exceptional reason to exist.

Well I mean isn't that an accurate portrayal and viewpoint of how people then ( and even now) would actually feel about race relations and minorities. A disappointing and inaccurate view, but one that would be held as an us vs view type of view.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

And yet you and the author conveniently ignore the "historical accuracy" argument when it is used in games set in China / Japan (Dynasty Warriors, Romance of the 3 kingdoms, Samurai Warriors, Sleeping Dogs, Yakuza, etc). So... I guess those games get a pass even though they are made by, and starring, the majority race of a foreign country that have minority populations in them that aren't being represented?

And what about the next wave of game developers that will come out of India or African countries? Are you going to complain if their games lack diverse casts as well?

Nothing is stopping you from complaining about those games, although you're somewhat off. I will say that those countries are FAR more ethnically homogenous than London/UK. To the point where their total percentage of foreigners is lower than the percentage of the next highest ethnic group (after whites) in London sooo...

 

[orthodoxy1095]

She wasn't shown NOT because she was BROWN, it was BECAUSE SHE is important to a the STORY'S SPOILER. There is a difference, you are pointing at racisim, when there isn't.....

Well said.

 

[MCN]

What are you even advocating? Just in the middle of the trailer, show a clip of a brown person, with no other reason than just to show them? That seems ludicrous.

I think Systembug is advocating the worst kind of box-ticking, quota-filling attitude that the more lunatic fringes of social justice advocates believe in.

 

[Fury451]

Well I mean isn't that an accurate portrayal and viewpoint of how people then ( and even now) would actually feel about race relations and minorities. A disappointing and inaccurate view, but one that would be held as an us vs view type of view.

Yes, and playing the game to the end would show the error of that thinking, and it's integral to Galahad's development.

But hey, let's just all yell about stuff we know nothing about.

 

[SystemBug]

Lakshmi might be the second most prominent character in the game after Galahad but because she wasn't shown in trailers, you're implying racism?

Keep digging that hole, it's quite entertaining.

I don't think I'm digging any hole. And never did I say the game or the marketing behind it was racist.

All I'm saying is that maybe throw us, brown skinned folks, a bone for once. And actually represent us.

Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there is a minority in it?

The game had a brown person it, there work is cut out for them. Just show us in marketing. A quick snippet even.

I think Systembug is advocating the worst kind of box-ticking, quota-filling attitude that the more lunatic fringes of social justice advocates believe in.

oh please.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Yes clearly white people are the only audience the western gaming industry cares about.

white MALES. fixed that for you.

 

[Doukou]

white MALES. fixed that for you.

Maels

 

[soundscream]

Before the game came out there were posters using the historical accuracy argument to defend the game. If the game didn't have any minority charcters they would still be using that argument.

But since the game came out it shouldn't be used as it was in the article. However using evidence pre release would have been fair game, because people were using that argument.

 

[jmood88]

Oh definitely, which is why I'm so dumbfounded that this person is so stuck on The Order.

I posted a quote that featured The Order, then presented my Order-free thoughts on the subject of diversity in games (other than mentioning an argument that a fan of the game made about black people during the time period) but, instead of discussing that, people have latched onto The Order. I'm more than happy to address what I was actually talking about when others are willing to do so.

 

[Mael]

white MALES. fixed that for you.

You're serious?
Because if you are I couldn't more happy about mobile gaming taking over everything.

 

[Give War A Chance]

I think Systembug is advocating the worst kind of box-ticking, quota-filling attitude that the more lunatic fringes of social justice advocates believe in.

That sounds more offensive to me than the alternative s/he's proposing. I wouldn't want to just be <insert whatever here> because I'm <insert skin color here that isn't white>. That's just a different kind of wrong.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

You're serious?
Because if you are I couldn't more happy about mobile gaming taking over everything.

Lol, no

Nothing is stopping you from complaining about those games, although you're somewhat off. I will say that those countries are FAR more ethnically homogenous than London/UK. To the point where their total percentage of foreigners is lower than the percentage of the next highest ethnic group (after whites) in London sooo...

Yes, and yet many of those games throw historical accuracy out the window by including mythological demons and characters with super powers, so I guess using the whole "historical accuracy" thing isn't just a one way street to exclude non-whites, is it? I mean, the racial make up of Japan didn't stop the creation of Afro Samurai, and why should it?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't think I'm digging any hole. And never did I say the game or the marketing behind it was racist.

All I'm saying is that maybe throw us, brown skinned folks, a bone for once. And actually represent us.

Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there is a minority in it?

The game had a brown person it, there work is cut out for them. Just show us in marketing. A quick snippet even.

I'd think that a "brown skinned folk" being of the most important characters in a game is a bone. Indians are being represented in the game.

You need to buy the game to find out there is an important minority in it because her role is a spoiler. If she's not marketed, somehow the representation in the game doesn't matter now?

 

[IvorB]

Keep digging that hole, it's quite entertaining.

Yeah it's amazing to watch actually...

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't think I'm digging any hole. And never did I say the game or the marketing behind it was racist.

All I'm saying is that maybe throw us, brown skinned folks, a bone for once. And actually represent us.

Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there is a minority in it?

The game had a brown person it, there work is cut out for them. Just show us in marketing. A quick snippet even.

I'm not saying that this is what you're saying. But what you're literally asking in the context of the order based on the fact that apparently major characters who're spoilers should now be shown in trailers is

Spoiler

"Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there's vampires in it."

^ This is literally what you're asking when you use the order as an example. The order is a bad example.

 

[Wiktor]

I think raising this complain against Witcher is not only ignorant, but also a bit racist, even if unintentionally.

 

[MCN]

Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there is a minority in it?

How about a label on every game that tells you which races are in it?

 

[aly]

I don't think I'm digging any hole. And never did I say the game or the marketing behind it was racist.

All I'm saying is that maybe throw us, brown skinned folks, a bone for once. And actually represent us.

Why do I need to buy a game, only to find out that there is a minority in it?

The game had a brown person it, there work is cut out for them. Just show us in marketing. A quick snippet even.

I fully understand what you're saying. I just think( in this one case of The Order) a story driven game where the brown skin's person's involvement is an actual legitimate spoiler might actually be a good reason to hold back in the marketing. Just throwing them a bone here.