Support NeoGAF

[devilhawk]

That's not what I'm saying. I mean specifically in public places, nobody needs to hear or see those kind of things in their daily lives. Some argue that such things don't harm people because no physical harm is done. Then why have laws against stalking or cyber bullying, etc? Nobody is physically harming anyone by doing those things either, right? I know about the American "freedom of speech" business, what I'm asking is, why can you people not vote and make changes to it for the benefit of all society?

You could be ticketed for disturbing the peace. Being taped on a private bus is not the public realm, however.

 

[Suburban_Nooblet]

That's not what I'm saying. I mean specifically in public places, nobody needs to hear or see those kind of things in their daily lives. Some argue that such things don't harm people because no physical harm is done. Then why have laws against stalking or cyber bullying, etc? Nobody is physically harming anyone by doing those things either, right? I know about the American "freedom of speech" business, what I'm asking is, why can you people not vote and make changes to it for the benefit of all society?

What country do you reside in?

 

[Kinsei]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

Spoken like someone not affected by those views.

 

[CrushDance]

What country do you reside in?

I'm in Canada. It's a bit different here in some regards.

You could be ticketed for disturbing the peace. Being taped on a private bus is not the public realm, however.

So if someone was talking or doing racially charged actions in public, they could be ticketed and it would be fine. They just can't be forced to shut up, okay that makes sense then. My problem though is as I said before, I have a hard time believing that such things actually matter to the majority. Because in a few ways, it doesn't affect them directly and we know that the system is rigged socially. So why go out of your way to ticket for behaviour such as that, when the majority aren't even getting their lives ruined for simple drug use? I'm saying, the public are the ones that decide what happens in their countries and communities. Why then are people not outraged about mass incarceration of black people, but we expect them to care about "simple racist commentary"?

 

[Enzom21]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

Prosecution from the government not society. I would imagine he is talking about societal consequence, which they should definitely have to face.

 

[King_Moc]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

You're allowed to hold any opinion you want, I have no problem with that. As soon as you voice it though, especially in an attempt to discriminate, well then we got problems.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Spoken like someone not affected by those views.

I agree with the poster. I've been called a nigger right to my face. I wouldn't want anyone prosecuted for it, though.

 

[Yaboosh]

They can. It just makes them ineligible for federal aid funding. See: Liberty University. But they are free to operate.

You guys are confusing each other.

He is probably talking about privately owned businesses that serve the public, which cannot discriminate based on the protected classes.


Edit: At least I assume that is the source of his confusion.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Well this couldnt have blown up any bigger than it did so that's good i guess. Gotta wonder how many politicians that used to be members are squirming right now.

 

[John Kowalski]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

did you know it's illegal to be racist in some places

the nerve

 

[CrushDance]

I agree with the poster. I've been called a nigger right to my face. I wouldn't want anyone prosecuted for it, though.

I would. Happened to me many times and at times it just shakes you. I actually did call the police once because I took down the persons license number, they came to my house and said that there was nothing they could do about it. How do you think that made me feel? Why is it that a society that maintains it believes in equality and freedom, finds it acceptable for members of it to be treated like that and for those responsible, to not be held accountable? Now what would happen to me if I went around insulting white people like that? The balance of power breeds complacency in only one direction.

 

[Suburban_Nooblet]

As far as freedom of expression or speech being illegal in any "first world" country I disagree.


I know I will probably get ripped apart for this but I disagree with all of Germany's "Denazification" laws.

I'n the U.S. I am free to fly the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag in my front yard if I please and I believe that is how it should be.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I would. Happened to me many times and at times it just shakes you. I actually did call the police once because I took down the persons license number, they came to my house and said that there was nothing they could do about it. How do you think that made me feel? Now what would happen to me if I went around insulting white people like that? The balance of power breeds complacency in only one direction.

Sorry but prosecuting hurt feelings is a poorly thought out policy. Whose feeling gs do we protect? Everyone's under every context of being hurt? How do we quantify hurt emotions?

Nah, I'd rather them just kidding ked the fuck outta school. That's more realistic to me.

 

[Yaboosh]

I agree with the poster. I've been called a nigger right to my face. I wouldn't want anyone prosecuted for it, though.

Getting called a nigger to your face is fighting words isn't it? I imagine if the law was crafted carefully enough, it could be illegal to do that.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

So I'm a piece of shit because I was an SAE then?

The organization and culture that persists within SAE is gross.

They banned pledging entirely because of their extreme hazing problems. The shit they do at our school is gross.

You yourself aren't a piece of shit.
And individually, most of these kids in this video are probably okay.

But the group mentality really brings out the absolute worst in people.

 

[king_kerry2]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

Like any job you go to or organization you attend, you become a representative for that company/organization. These students are representations of not only their frat but also the university. As soon as they filled out the application for admissions and clicked on the box that states Agree with Terms and Conditions, pending the University's ToC, any intolerable act that negatively effects the University can be sought after.

Yes people can say whatever they want in the freedom of their own privacy but when this stuff gets spoken in public, especially what looks like during a frat event/funciton, then punishment from that organization can come into place.

And should.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Getting called a nigger to your face is fighting words isn't it? I imagine if the law was crafted carefully enough, it could be illegal to do that.

I wouldn't think so. Now if it was accompanied with a threat of violence or something, that's different.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I'm concerned this is a serious post... There is no punishment and there should never be one. You are and should be able to hold any fucking view you want without fear of prosecution.

Anytime a group of more than just a few members (I don't remember the exact number) are present, it is considered an official Chapter event. This Chapter is chartered to uphold the values of the University.
If you are no longer representing the values of the University, you can be subject to various punishments.

 

[King_Moc]

I wouldn't think so. Now if it was accompanied with a threat of violence or something, that's different.

So it should be legal to just follow black guys around shouting nigger into their face all day long, and if they react, they're the ones breaking the law?

 

[Suburban_Nooblet]

So it should be legal to just follow black guys around shouting nigger into their face all day long, and if they react, they're the ones breaking the law?

The only thing a person could possibly be arrested for is "disorderly conduct" and that is pushing it.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

So it should be legal to just follow black guys around shouting nigger into their face all day long, and if they react, they're the ones breaking the law?

If the black guys could prove that they had reason to believe they were in imminent danger, then they could make the case for assault.

And if someone is "in their face", they might be able to make the case.

 

[Delta Assault]

Getting called a nigger to your face is fighting words isn't it? I imagine if the law was crafted carefully enough, it could be illegal to do that.

These days, fighting words are very narrowly construed by the courts, precisely because the exception should not swallow the rule. The law would have to be crafted in such a way that it avoided RAV v. St. Paul, which explicitly struck down a statute prohibiting speech or symbolic expression that "arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender."

I would not be surprised if the fighting words exception was removed entirely in the next 30 years.

 

[King_Moc]

The only thing a person could possibly be arrested for is "disorderly conduct" and that is pushing it.

If the black guys could prove that they had reason to believe they were in imminent danger, then they could make the case for assault.

And if someone is "in their face", they might be able to make the case.

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I can't watch the video right now did they actually chant hashtag?

 

[Suburban_Nooblet]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

 

[TAJ]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

We do prosecute for racism, but only if it's the motivation for an actual crime. Racially-motivated crimes are considered worse similar to the way that premeditated crimes are considered worse than crimes of passion.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

So it should be legal to just follow black guys around shouting nigger into their face all day long, and if they react, they're the ones breaking the law?

Is it the same person being followed? That probably turns into harassment. Random people? Probably not. Reacting violently unfortunately isn't warranted if it isn't in self defense.

I mean KKK rallies are protected just fine. Racist speech isn't illegal.

 

[Suburban_Nooblet]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

In all seriousness of course it is? You can't prosecute someone for an opinion.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Everybody in the video needs to get that work. I want expulsions to rain down like the wrath of gawd.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

Problem is when the government can censor speech you deem offensive it can also censor speech it deems offensive. Read a history book. You do not want that.

Everybody in the video needs to get that work. I want expulsions to rain down like the wrath of gawd.

This. We don't need to "redefine" free speech and make it illegal to say bad things. Just expelled them.

 

[Machine]

I find it interesting how events like this have slowly changed some peoples' perception of the ACLU. Conservatives used to hate the ACLU but since the ACLU is steadfast in its support of ALL speech, liberals seem like they now hate it more than conservatives. The ACLU has an interesting piece about hate speech on campuses at its website: https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/hate-speech-campus

 

[THRILLH0]

It's sad how slavish so many Americans are to a document written more than 200 years ago that you'll staunchly defend someone's right to shout "fuck niggers" from the rooftops free from any real consequence.

 

[Rocketz]

The organization and culture that persists within SAE is gross.

They banned pledging entirely because of their extreme hazing problems. The shit they do at our school is gross.

You yourself aren't a piece of shit.
And individually, most of these kids in this video are probably okay.

But the group mentality really brings out the absolute worst in people.

What this group showed does not represent SAE as a whole. It sucks as a alumni of this fraternity seeing something like this happen because I know thats not what SAE is.

Groups that haze and live in the culture that happened at OU need to the punished. They don't deserve to wear the letters or even be associated with SAE.

 

[The Artisan]

haha, oh man that guy

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Really?

You can go around calling people racist slurs and that's legal?

Depending on the situation, if you go around calling people racist slurs to their face, that may be considered constitutionally unprotected "fighting words" speech. The key is whether or not your speech is and "incitement to imminent lawless action." But singing an asshole racist song with your asshole racist friends? That's protected speech.

So what exactly is the punishment for being racist in America? We always forget about these people, many of them get book deals, movie deals, they can blend into the larger society, many of them get donations for their cases and other forms of support...I mean, I get it. You can't do anything to kick them out or punish them for what they say. But doesn't that simply mean that the majority of Americans are fine with this? People keep bringing up "public places", yeah well, why not vote then to make racism something punishable by jail time? Would that ruin too many white peoples lives, having criminal records?

Many racist behaviors, such as discrimination in public settings and workplaces, harassment, vandalism, "fighting words," among others are illegal. For racist speech alone, public scorn and resulting consequences is the main punishment.

Making "racism" illegal encourages the racists to hide, would result in huge jail populations (of all colors,) be highly subjective, and would set a precedent for banning speech based on content. 150 years ago, you'd have people trying to ban speech that advocated for the abolishment of slavery, 100 years ago you'd have people trying to ban speech that advocated for interdenominational marriage, 50 years ago you'd have people banning speech against the war in Vietnam, today you'd have people banning speech in favor of LGBT rights. Free speech only means anything if you actually protect the right to free speech when the speech is unpopular.

I know about the American "freedom of speech" business, what I'm asking is, why can you people not vote and make changes to it for the benefit of all society?

Not being able express an unpopular viewpoint is a huge harm to society.

 

[Delta Assault]

It's sad how slavish so many Americans are to a document written more than 200 years ago that you'll staunchly defend someone's right to shout "fuck niggers" from the rooftops free from any real consequence.

We've found the benefits outweigh the occasional costs.

Depending on the situation, if you go around calling people racist slurs to their face, that may be considered constitutionally unprotected "fighting words" speech. The key is whether or not your speech is and "incitement to imminent lawless action." But singing an asshole racist song with your asshole racist friends? That's protected speech.

Those are actually two separate exceptions.

Inciting imminent lawless action: Speech that incites imminent lawless action was originally banned under the weaker clear and present danger test established by Schenck v. United States, but this test has since been replaced by the imminent lawless action test established in Brandenburg v. Ohio. The canonical example, enunciated by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, in Schenck, is falsely yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. This is an example of immediate harm.

Fighting words: Inflammatory words that are either injurious by themselves or might cause the hearer to immediately retaliate or breach the peace. Use of such words is not necessarily protected "free speech" under the First Amendment.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

Yes, it's legal. This is how free speech works.

I can hold whatever views I want and express them as I wish in the public sphere.
Unless I'm threatening someone.

Do you really want racism to be illegal? As in the government putting people in jail for being racist.

Racists who operate under free speech do not go without consequence. They can be:

-Fired from their job
-Removed from organizations
-Engraved in google search history
etc.

 

[njean777]

This is seriously fucked up. So racism is basically legal in the USA, as long as you don't physically harm your victim?

Yes it is legal, doesn't mean you will escape serious consequences.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

This. We don't need to "redefine" free speech and make it illegal to say bad things. Just expelled them.

Exactly. I don't want free speech to change because of this. It works just fine. They can sing racists song all day, but if people in positions of power see and hear it, I need them to do their jobs and get those people out of there. OU needs to tell those students to go sing their racist songs at another university.

Speak freely, just know we don't have to listen.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm just catching wind of this but this is honestly unbelievable. This is like blatant KKK level racism. Like I almost want to laugh about how absurd this is. I hope the books, the kitchen sink, everything is thrown at these motherfuckers. Maybe when they suffer and truly understand the consequences of their actions they might take the time for some self reflection and improve as human beings. I can guarantee you that babying them isn't going to do shit and would amount to nothing more than a tacit approval of such abhorrent behavior.

 

[King_Moc]

Yes, it's legal. This is how free speech works.

I can hold whatever views I want and express them as I wish in the public sphere.
Unless I'm threatening someone.

Do you really want racism to be illegal? As in the government putting people in jail for being racist?

No, I don't think people should be jailed for being racist, that's an opinion that they hold and is fine. There should be legal ramifications for acting upon that opinion though.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

No, I don't think people should be jailed for being racist, that's an opinion that they hold and is fine. There should be legal ramifications for acting upon that opinion though.

What do you mean "acting upon that opinion?"

Unless its violent and threatening, then the government should not be prosecuting people.

I should be allowed to hold up a racist sign if I do so choose.
However, I have to be aware that people might photograph me. I could make the news. I could alienate friends. I could be fired from my job. I could get barred from my industry. etc.

 

[NullPointer]

All this talk of the legal issues, does it even matter when it comes to deciding whether these students can be expelled?

 

[shadowsdarknes]

All this talk of the legal issues, does it even matter when it comes to deciding whether these students can be expelled?

Well.. do Universities have the right to dismiss any student for any reason they choose?
Does OU reserve that right and inform students upon entrance of the University?

This can be relevant from a legal perspective.

 

[Yaboosh]

All this talk of the legal issues, does it even matter when it comes to deciding whether these students can be expelled?

Yes.

 

[Rocketz]

Here is what my Province leader had to say to the events at OU.

Normally on this Province Forum I post under the Province Pi name, since the information is typically SAE business or event promotion. In this instance I want to post under my name, so this is clearly identified as my words. Words. Words can be some of the most powerful and harmful weapons used in the world. Words cannot be taken back.
I am embarrassed, hurt, disgusted and angry at the words used in the video released yesterday. I have never before heard such vile words in a cheer or song in my Fraternity life. Thousands of SAE volunteers work tirelessly to educate and promote the best ideals of SAE. The words in the True Gentleman leave no room for interpretation. They are clear, concise and true. Sadly, stupidity and racism exists. It exists in the dark corners of work, family dinner tables, schools, churches, clubs, sports teams and Fraternities. You will all be exposed, or have been already, to people using words to hurt, marginalize and harm. The words may be posed as a joke, a generalization of a group or just directly insulting. It is up to you to handle these words with the indignation they deserve. The work to be done in our country to truly be an open, tolerant and fair place is great and real True Gentleman should be prepared to carry the load.
I was planning on wearing an SAE polo to work today, and last night I questioned if I should. This thought made me sick. I was concerned what I may hear at work, since my colleagues all know of my love for and work with SAE. After some thought and prayer, I decided to wear my purple and gold today, on our Founders Day. What better day to stand with the Supreme Council, our FSC Staff and countless Brothers that promptly and soundly renounce these hurtful and ignorant actions. Today I am proud to be an SAE.
I encourage you to have open dialogue within the walls of your Chapters and Schools. I encourage you to not brush this aside, as if this could not exist at your school. I challenge us all, to use our words and actions to be better men today than we were yesterday. Do not accept the way things were, as the way things have to be. As always, if you are struggling with and challenges in your Chapters, your Alumni, Province Council and FSC Staff are here to help.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

It's sad how slavish so many Americans are to a document written more than 200 years ago that you'll staunchly defend someone's right to shout "fuck niggers" from the rooftops free from any real consequence.

Step back and look at the big picture. Look past the word "nigger". What happens when we get to tell people what they can and can not say when it comes to self expression?

Sorry if that old musty constitution is inconvenient to your sensibilities but I think one needs a bit of perspective on the nature of free speech have. What if my freedom of expression upsets and hurts you? Should I not be allowed?

Who gets to be the arbiter of what speech is offensive and what speech isn't?

They have every right to express their feelings about black people. I don't agree with it and as a black man it hurts but yes, I will stand up even for the right of a bigot to say what they want. Yea...freedom of speech have is kinda sacrosanct to me.

It's an old fashioned notion...

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

That's gotta be a a blatant violation of some discrimination policy at the school right? You've got a bunch of frat members saying we won't allow any black OU students into the frat because of their race. Hang a black OU student for all I care they can't sign with our frat.

 

[Maledict]

Yes, it's legal. This is how free speech works.

I can hold whatever views I want and express them as I wish in the public sphere.
Unless I'm threatening someone.

Do you really want racism to be illegal? As in the government putting people in jail for being racist.

Racists who operate under free speech do not go without consequence. They can be:

-Fired from their job
-Removed from organizations
-Engraved in google search history
etc.

Just to point out one minor amendment needed in your first sentance. This is how *America* free speech works. Other countries hold different standards, and absolutely no-one on earth has completely unlimited speech all the time, so you cannot claim a sole monopoly on the idea of free speech.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

It's sad how slavish so many Americans are to a document written more than 200 years ago that you'll staunchly defend someone's right to shout "fuck niggers" from the rooftops free from any real consequence.

That slavish devotion also protects us when we shout "Fuck the police," advocate for civil rights for minorities, and denounce bullshit wars.