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[ElectricBlanketFire]

I have to be honest, while the child should be able to use the appropriate facilities based on how they are living, the purple hair is a red flag to me that there is some overzealous parenting going on rather than a child making a decision for herself.

 

[Artemisia]

I don't understand how being transgender isn't associated with sexual preference. So it's possible to be a woman within a mans body...who is sexually attracted to women? You cant blame people like me for not understanding this.

A trans woman isn't gay if she is attracted to men.

 

[Amakusa]

So where are the female transgenders?

Never see those threads, Transgender wants to use men's restroom.

 

[RSP]

This would make it very hard for me to go the bathroom, as I can't even use a urinal with someone near me, I have always been very consious about peeing "in public"

Urinal? the kids are ages 0 - 4 at daycare, and 4 - 7 at first and second grade. Everybody just sits down. Then you move to the "big kids" space where they have separate bathrooms.

Could be that this kid is actually in the latter group now that I think of it.

Oh my point was: Don't think the younger kids give a damn. They just need to pee quickly and go back to playing with their toys.

 

[Aiii]

Urinal? the kids are ages 0 - 4 at daycare, and 4 - 7 at first and second grade. Everybody just sits down. Then you move to the "big kids" space where they have separate bathrooms.

Could be that this kid is actually in the latter group now that I think of it.

I could not sit down and pee in a transparent bathroom or a non-seperated bathroom while somebody else was in there.

I know I'm weird, but still, if I don't have some privacy seperating me from other people, I cannot go to the bathroom. I know I'm not the only person that has this "problem," though I'm sure it's a minority. Hell, even when drinking heavily and having a big need to relieve myself I could not bring myself to do it.

Not sure if it's psychological in nature or some kind of genetic tick, as my father and uncle also have this issue.

Anyway, it's wildly offtopic (my apologies), but it's weird to me to make a bathroom that doesn't allow for some privacy.

 

[Dead Man]

I have to be honest, while the child should be able to use the appropriate facilities based on how they are living, the purple hair is a red flag to me that there is some overzealous parenting going on rather than a child making a decision for herself.

Are you fucking kidding? A kid can't dye their hair now?

So where are the female transgenders?

Never see those threads, Transgender wants to use men's restroom.

 

[effe]

So where are the female transgenders?

Never see those threads, Transgender wants to use men's restroom.

They exist.

 

[Dark Knyght]

It's true. Boys and girls and men and women are conditioned by society into adhering to 'acceptable' gender roles in line with traditional masculine or feminine values. That is very much the case.

However, I think that for some children, like the girl in this story, this isn't something that has been learned, taught or influenced. For whatever reason, this girl is absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that she is the opposite gender to what her sexual organs suggest. There's a lot of evidence to suggest this isn't something she's likely to change her mind about either, but that she will feel a girl and, ultimately, a woman for the rest of her life. I think that it's best to not worry so much why or how and instead focus on accepting this is the reality and what can be done to make sure she doesn't suffer because of this.

I agree with that. Don't get me wrong, I don't knock anyone's decision to conduct themselves or raise their children in any way they feel fit to, as long as it isn't hurting anybody. I have nothing against the child being transgendered at all. However, I was just disputing the way in which it came about, which in reality, is irrelevant at this point. The child is what she is. But I do see how parents of other children would feel shaky at their innocent little girls might be in the same room as a penis. Oh Noes. BTW, How, the fuck, does anyone and everyone know the lil girl is transgendered anyway? Isn't that confidential/private stuff?

 

[Risette]

Will there ever be a thread about a transgendered child without people trying to rationalize things by pointing at the parents?

There is a questionable motive behind those types of posts.

 

[Pollux]

Yeah, really. Try to make it less obvious that you don't give a shit about the girl.

And honestly? Her having purple hair is more of a distraction than her using the girls bathrooms. I don't understand what the big deal is.

I'm surprised she's allowed to have that honestly. Where I went to school people weren't allowed to dye their hair any non-natural color.

And as for the bathroom, I understand where they're coming from, but I don't really agree with the decision either. Tough call, actually.

 

[Dead Man]

They exist.

Much better pic.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

Aren't the girl's bathrooms stalls anyway? How would anyone know if he is behind a stall going to the bathroom. Let the kid live as the kid views herself.

Exactly this. It's an entirely different prospect to a transboy using a men's room. Once you're behind the door who cares what's under the skirt?

 

[Platy]

I don't understand how being transgender isn't associated with sexual preference. So it's possible to be a woman within a mans body...who is sexually attracted to women? You cant blame people like me for not understanding this.

Do you understand how there are lesbians, right ?

Do you understand that lesbians are women, right ?

Do you understand that transgender women are ... women right ?

So what is the problem with a woman being ... a woman ?

So where are the female transgenders?

Never see those threads, Transgender wants to use men's restroom.

It is transgender male ...

and media hates them.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Will there ever be a thread about a transgendered child without people trying to rationalize things by pointing at the parents?

There is a questionable motive behind those types of posts.

Just because someone doesn't understand does not make their questions bigoted in nature.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Will there ever be a thread about a transgendered child without people trying to rationalize things by pointing at the parents?

There is a questionable motive behind those types of posts.

I'm insulted by what you are insinuating. I firmly believe that transgender kids and adults should be able to live their lives without ridicule or persecution.

Choosing to let your very young child to live as a girl is a serious decision. One with academic and social consequences, both good and bad. Now, if the goal is to let her assimilate into the culture without bullying or ridicule, why would you dye her hair bright purple? It's like the parents are acting on the whims of offhanded remarks by a child.

You can disagree with my opinion, but don't make blanket statements.

 

[Dark Knyght]

Yes, and that happens because it fits most of the time.

Children aren't automatically forced into every gender stereotype. Very often in satisfies their natural needs and interests, and that shouldn't be frowned upon.

At the same time, society needs to acknowledge that there are a lot of children who are "different" as well (I don't want to make it sound derogatory at all, but as a German, I don't know how I could say it better in English), and nobody has the right to force them into some stereotype they aren't happy with. This needs to be respected as well. Everybody is different, and it doesn't really matter if someone fits into an established gender role or doesn't. Both options are perfectly fine.

I can definitely understand that. I have no problems with any child rejecting the stereotypical gender roles itself because those are behavioral characteristics that does affect the individual character and morals of the person. That's how some girls become tomboys and boys become "feminine" boys, I guess. (didn't know how to describe it otherwise, but whatever).

 

[bjb]

I consider myself fully a transgender ally but I don't know that I disagree with this call, especially if they make those other gender-neutral facilities available for her. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

I'll second this. Having volunteered teaching little kids recently - the biggest headache on earth is when they have problems they don't understand (can't comprehend).

I can just imagine the potential nightmare for the teachers trying to explain to certain students (other girls) why there's a boy - dressed as a girl who has a penis in the girl's bathroom. Furthermore, other parents -might- be uncomfortable with the idea. Particularly if their kids come home asking similar questions.

The conclusion they came to seems fair on the grounds that it doesn't create further controversy.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

You don't choose which bathroom to go in based on how you feel about yourself. If you have a dick, go in the men's. if you don't, go in the girls.
I totally agree with this call, especially if we're talking about first graders.

 

[Aiii]

I'll second this. Having volunteered teaching little kids recently - the biggest headache on earth is when they have problems they don't understand (can't comprehend).

I can just imagine the potential nightmare for the teachers trying to explain to certain students (other girls) why there's a boy - dressed as a girl who has a penis in the girl's bathroom. Furthermore, other parents -might- be uncomfortable with the idea. Particularly if their kids come home asking similar questions.

The conclusion they came to seems fair on the grounds that it doesn't create further controversy.

To be honest, children, esp. ones in this age are very understanding when it comes to matters like this. One simple and short explanation followed by a Q&A where you explain that even though she was born in a boys body, she feels like she is a girl and has decided she wants to live like a girl would be sufficient for almost every one of these kids.

Kids are very accepting of their enviroment, probably because they're mostly a blank slate where they are not yet influenced by news, media and the "big bad world" in general on how to to think and feel. If the teacher and parents don't turn this into a big deal, they will most likely accept it for what it is and move on.

 

[Platy]

I'll second this. Having volunteered teaching little kids recently - the biggest headache on earth is when they have problems they don't understand (can't comprehend).

I can just imagine the potential nightmare for the teachers trying to explain to certain students (other girls) why there's a boy - dressed as a girl who has a penis in the girl's bathroom. Furthermore, other parents -might- be uncomfortable with the idea. Particularly if their kids come home asking similar questions.

The conclusion they came to seems fair on the grounds that it doesn't create further controversy.

"It might surprise you, but there is a girl in the girl's bathroom"

NOBODY need to know the genitals of anyone they don't want to fuck

Also, yes, segregating someone diferent is ALWAYS the best option ...

 

[Nekofrog]

Seriously. Boggles my mind how a 1st grader could make a decision about his/her sexuality or gender at that age.

sexuality != gender

 

[effe]

I'll second this. Having volunteered teaching little kids recently - the biggest headache on earth is when they have problems they don't understand (can't comprehend).

I can just imagine the potential nightmare for the teachers trying to explain to certain students (other girls) why there's a boy - dressed as a girl who has a penis in the girl's bathroom. Furthermore, other parents -might- be uncomfortable with the idea. Particularly if their kids come home asking similar questions.

The conclusion they came to seems fair on the grounds that it doesn't create further controversy.

you'd be surprised what elementary level students are accepting of. It's not until they age and get into middle school that children start to really perceive homosexuality and the likes as a negative.

 

[Mumei]

Re-posting this:

And anyone questioning how she could know this at her age should be aware that transgender people being aware at least that they were "different" (even if they did not have the vocabulary to describe their difference) in gender terms from their peers is not at all uncommon and I'm sure that some posters in TransGAF could attest to that. Of course, there are also people who do not explore their feelings and suppress them (this is also the source of people who don't realize that they are gay until later in life; I did not realize I was gay until I was 16), which is why you'll also hear about people who only realize post-puberty, early twenties, or well into adulthood.

I think the real reason that you hear about younger children actually explicitly self-identifying as transgender is that because there is greater awareness and acceptance of these issues than there was in times past, kids who do realize this at a younger age are learning earlier what they are and are self-identifying at a younger age. But I think that people aren't comfortable with the idea that children are conscious of an internalized sense of being male or female - different from the confusions about gender fluidity that some young children have (e.g. little boys thinking they could have babies) - and so they try to look for an overly permissive parent who is pulling the strings.

I'm insulted by what you are insinuating. I firmly believe that transgender kids and adults should be able to live their lives without ridicule or persecution.

Choosing to let your very young child to live as a girl is a serious decision. One with academic and social consequences, both good and bad. Now, if the goal is to let her assimilate into the culture without bullying or ridicule, why would you dye her hair bright purple? It's like the parents are acting on the whims of offhanded remarks by a child.

Perhaps she wanted to dye her hair purple? She's seven, after all. I never dyed my hair as a child, but my brother has plenty of pictures of himself with green or blue hair when he was that age. In any case, I don't really think using the fact that she has purple hair as evidence of overzealous parenting is very well supported.

 

[poppabk]

This is so reductionist that I don't even know where to begin.

It's a pertinent question. What is gender identity without identifying with gender roles? If you don't identify with female gender roles what does it mean to say that you identify as female?

 

[Zoe]

Are you fucking kidding? A kid can't dye their hair now?

Well... yeah. Unnatural hair color is against every public school dress code that I'm familiar with.

 

[effe]

It's a pertinent question. What is gender identity without identifying with gender roles? If you don't identify with female gender roles what does it mean to say that you identify as female?

He was saying that people only identify as male/female because of societal influences. Is that not completely incorrect?

 

[Dead Man]

Well... yeah. Unnatural hair color is against every public school dress code that I'm familiar with.

Glad I don't live where you live.

 

[bjb]

To be honest, children, esp. ones in this age are very understanding when it comes to matters like this. One simple and short explanation followed by a Q&A where you explain that even though she was born in a boys body, she feels like she is a girl and has decided she wants to live like a girl would be sufficient for almost every one of these kids.

Kids are very accepting of their enviroment, probably because they're mostly a blank slate where they are not yet influenced by news, media and the "big bad world" in general on how to to think and feel. If the teacher and parents don't turn this into a big deal, they will most likely accept it for what it is and move on.

I disagree entirely. For example; we had first grade students confused out of their minds when another student was suffering from seizures. Trying to explain it to them either went completely over their heads, or seemed to create further confusion. They were some who grasped the idea, but I would say the vast majority were pretty perplexed. Likewise, we had a student who repeatedly kept smearing his feces all over the walls. Often times just going in bathroom with his pants pulled down and starring at the wall. That was such a debacle trying to articulate to the kids that he's special needs - and is attempting to work through his problems. It's easy to sit back and arm-chair how children might react to certain things, but until you've had exposure to teaching them on a regular basis, then your opinion might change.

In terms of having a Q&A with young children about the idea of being Transgender - I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the idea, but you have to consider the potential ramifications. Is that really a 1st grade teachers place to open that dialogue? Furthermore, teaching jobs are scarce as shit right now. The last thing I would personally want to do is put my job in jeopardy, potentially angering some parents at home. Most parents with kids that young are exhausted enough already. You open a door to perhaps put them in a bind they didn't ask for having to explain something like that if/when it gets brought from their child's first grade class.

 

[Can Crusher]

The purple hair is throwing me off. She's in 1st grade, why would her parent allow this? Makes me question the parents.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Perhaps she wanted to dye her hair purple? She's seven, after all. I never dyed my hair as a child, but my brother has plenty of pictures of himself with green or blue hair when he was that age. In any case, I don't really think using the fact that she has purple hair as evidence of overzealous parenting is very well supported.

Maybe it's not, but that doesn't give someone the right to "question my motives," especially when in the very same post I supported her living her life as a girl. Dyeing her hair bright purple will only put more of a spotlight on her and that's entirely the decision of the parents.

When it comes to a first grader being transgendered, it is absolutely reasonable to question whether or not they are making the decision for themselves, or if it is that of the parents.

Again, I support her decision, if it is indeed her decision. That's my only question.

 

[Dead Man]

I disagree entirely. For example; we had first grade students confused out of their minds when another student was suffering from seizures. Trying to explain it to them either went completely over their heads, or seemed to create further confusion. They were some who grasped the idea, but I would say the vast majority were pretty perplexed. Likewise, we had a student who repeatedly kept smearing his feces all over the walls. Often times just going in bathroom with his pants pulled down and starring at the wall. That was such a debacle trying to articulate to the kids that he's special needs - and is attempting to work through his problems. It's easy to sit back and arm-chair how children might react to certain things, but until you've had exposure to teaching them on a regular basis, then your opinion may be skewed.

In terms of having a Q&A with young children about the idea of being Transgender - I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the idea, but you have to consider the potential ramifications. Is that really a 1st grade teachers place to open that dialogue? Furthermore, teaching jobs are scarce as shit right now. The last thing I would personally want to do is put my job in jeopardy, potentially angering some parents at home. Most parents with kids that young are exhausted enough already. You potentially put them in a bind they didn't ask for having to explain something like that if/when it gets brought from their child's first grade class.

Some of those are not quite the same. What was the end reaction to the kid with seizures, did they ostracise them?

 

[Platy]

You don't choose which bathroom to go in based on how you feel about yourself. If you have a dick, go in the men's. if you don't, go in the girls.
I totally agree with this call, especially if we're talking about first graders.

There is a brazilian comic that I love that talked about this .... here is a translation :

 

[RDreamer]

It's a pertinent question. What is gender identity without identifying with gender roles? If you don't identify with female gender roles what does it mean to say that you identify as female?

This is partially what confuses me, too. It's also why the Genderbread picture is kind of odd to me. I believe pretty much everything we are is on a scale, much like the picture, and can be very fluid. But it feels weird to me that it still describes things in a binary nature. What exactly is "woman-ness" or "man-ness" when talking about gender? Like, I really just don't understand what it is if it isn't talking about just gender roles. And if that's the case then that should be pointed out, and even talking about things in terms of traditional gender roles seems reductive to me. Perhaps there just isn't a way to do that graphic without going that route. I dunno.

To me, though, you're just you, and whatever that means to you, and I'm just me. I don't feel especially "male" in any way. I guess I fall into a good amount of traditional male gender roles, but I still identify more as just "me" rather than "male."

 

[Dead Man]

You don't choose which bathroom to go in based on how you feel about yourself. If you have a dick, go in the men's. if you don't, go in the girls.
I totally agree with this call, especially if we're talking about first graders.

So these two guys should go to the womens room, and you think women would be happy with that?

They exist.

 

[Seanspeed]

http://www.katiecouric.com/on-the-show/2013/02/26/trapped-in-the-wrong-body-growing-up-transgender-2/

Watch the first video on this page. I think it could possibly be any less ambiguous in her case.

Does this mean that there are some inherently 'feminine' traits in life?

People were trying to tell me the idea of feminine and masculine is just something man-made.

 

[Dead Man]

Does this mean that there are some inherently 'feminine' traits in life?

People were trying to tell me the idea of feminine and masculine is just something man-made.

The social roles are social constructs, the prevalence of chemicals in the brain is a biological basis for differences in behaviour.

Edit: For instance, wearing skirts and liking pink are things girls do because of societal rules. Feeling like a female is because of differences in brain chemistry.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

This is partially what confuses me, too. It's also why the Genderbread picture is kind of odd to me. I believe pretty much everything we are is on a scale, much like the picture, and can be very fluid. But it feels weird to me that it still describes things in a binary nature. What exactly is "woman-ness" or "man-ness" when talking about gender? Like, I really just don't understand what it is if it isn't talking about just gender roles. And if that's the case then that should be pointed out, and even talking about things in terms of traditional gender roles seems reductive to me. Perhaps there just isn't a way to do that graphic without going that route. I dunno.

To me, though, you're just you, and whatever that means to you, and I'm just me. I don't feel especially "male" in any way. I guess I fall into a good amount of traditional male gender roles, but I still identify more as just "me" rather than "male."

Completely agree.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

I support her decision, if it is indeed her decision. That's my only question.

Watch the videos posted earlier of her and her parents (see the post Seanspeed just quoted). Quite illuminating.

 

[ShinNL]

Re-posting this:

That's a nice picture and all but doesn't the genitals reveal what kind of body you have and what kind of hormones you produce, which affects the way your brain develops, which controls every expression you make? Just checking...

To me, though, you're just you, and whatever that means to you, and I'm just me. I don't feel especially "male" in any way. I guess I fall into a good amount of traditional male gender roles, but I still identify more as just "me" rather than "male."

I completely agree.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

All bathrooms should be unisex like in Ally McBeal.

 

[poppabk]

To me, though, you're just you, and whatever that means to you, and I'm just me. I don't feel especially "male" in any way. I guess I fall into a good amount of traditional male gender roles, but I still identify more as just "me" rather than "male."

Yeah this is basically where I find myself, although I fall into plenty of female gender roles as well. I just have never defined my gender by anything but my physical sex. It's not an identity to me just a physical classification.

 

[bro1]

My son is kindergarten and in his grade there is a boy that dresses up in pink tutus, wears princess tiaras, and does things generally speaking many would consider feminine. At first I thought it was the parents pushing this on to their child, given that both parents are very free spirits and tend to be a bit wacky. However, after having the child come to our house for a play date, I came to realize that this child is truly effeminate and that he was very lucky to have parents that allow him to be who he is and not force him to be something he's not.

On the other hand, the boys in my son's class that are very "manly-men" tend to have parents that are very much into gender roles and would be very upset if their children weren't carbon copies of themselves.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Watch the videos posted earlier of her and her parents (see the post Seanspeed just quoted). Quite illuminating.

Blocked at my work. Will watch when I get home.

 

[Log4Girlz]

My son is kindergarten and in his grade there is a boy that dresses up in pink tutus, wears princess tiaras, and does things generally speaking many would consider feminine. At first I thought it was the parents pushing this on to their child, given that both parents are very free spirits and tend to be a bit wacky. However, after having the child come to our house for a play date, I came to realize that this child is truly effeminate and that he was very lucky to have parents that allow him to be who he is and not force him to be something he's not.

On the other hand, the boys in my son's class that are very "manly-men" tend to have parents that are very much into gender roles and would be very upset if their children weren't carbon copies of themselves.

I would never let my daughter wear pink tutus and tiaras in public outside say, a birthday party or halloween. How tacky.

 

[mrklaw]

To be honest, children, esp. ones in this age are very understanding when it comes to matters like this. One simple and short explanation followed by a Q&A where you explain that even though she was born in a boys body, she feels like she is a girl and has decided she wants to live like a girl would be sufficient for almost every one of these kids.

Kids are very accepting of their enviroment, probably because they're mostly a blank slate where they are not yet influenced by news, media and the "big bad world" in general on how to to think and feel. If the teacher and parents don't turn this into a big deal, they will most likely accept it for what it is and move on.

yeah. They'll be right little bastards when they're a bit older - but at this age they'll just go 'huh, ok' and get on with their day.

The problem will come when they casually mention it to their parents at the end of the day and they come storming into school the next day causing a stink.


BTW, is there any research on how strongly and how early transgender kids know that their sex doesn't match their physical parts?

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Re-posting this:

Is that image based on scientific research? I would like to read up on studies about this.

 

[Zzoram]

Why are there even separate men's and women's washrooms these days?

Just make generic washrooms with only toilets in stalls. It's not like anyone else is going to see your genitals in a toilet stall.

Also, why are they afraid male genitals will be seen in a women's washroom when women's washrooms are all stalls?

 

[Jenga]

Why are there even separate men's and women's washrooms these days?

Just make generic washrooms with only toilets in stalls. It's not like anyone else is going to see your genitals in a toilet stall.

Also, why are they afraid male genitals will be seen in a women's washroom when women's washrooms are all stalls?

fuck that

i want my urinals

 

[MiicD]

This kid is cute, I hope this turns out well for her.

sexuality != gender

this made me lol, well done sir, well done.

 

[RDreamer]

fuck that

i want my urinals

What if they made 2 separate bathrooms, one for urinals and one for not urinals? Keeps all the efficiency of having urinals while not having to get into gender stuff.