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[Deleted member 20920]

Wouldn't letting it use the female bathroom set a bad precedent? All some perv would have to do is dress up as a woman, claim to be transgendered and then go into women's bathrooms/locker rooms etc.

It's not easy to claim to be transgendered. You need to be certified by many avenues.

 

[Mumei]

It's an attempt, but I don't think it quite gets there. It's still defining things based on man-ness or woman-ness, and I think if you're trying to express that there's an infinite variety of possibilities you're doing yourself a disservice by already starting to define things based on the two people are already stuck on. I believe there are an infinite variety of possibilities for people, too. As I said, you are just you, but that means I don't know what the hell "man-ness" even is in that case.

Well, I think "man-ness" in that graph in essentially "the extent to which you identify as a man"; in that case it is acknowledging the fact that there are some people for whom their sense of being male or female is not particularly strong (or nonexistent) and so for them they would place themselves low on both their sense of being a man and their sense of being a woman. This person would be genderless. Conversely it might be that someone equally identifies as male and female . These are obviously extremely uncommon but I think that is what is meant by that term in that context.

I'm not sure what alternative you are proposing, though.

I think I could make the argument that the opposite of what you're saying is also true. Those not in the dominant case are more salient of their status and/or label simply because they are likely being discriminated or singled out in some way. The social status creates that group from which they can say "I am this." In a world where there was theoretically no real racism and everyone was in a completely integrated culture would you really still identify with a skin color? Would you as much as you do now? It'd be like identifying with having a big nose. Your skin's just that color. So what?

I don't think that is the opposite of what I'm saying; I think you're simply giving an explanation (one I happen to agree with) for why these things are more salient for someone who is not in the dominant class. But I also think that simply being in a minority status in any situation - even if there is no racism or whatever happening - can make you more conscious of your own status. This is even true for someone who is generally in the majority (e.g. a straight person at a gay bar or a white person in situation where he is in the minority). And this would still be true even in that hypothetical world you mentioned.

In that way I'm saying in a world where we want you to just be able to be you on the spectrum of infinite possibilities, then where is gender? Where do you identify with your gender, specifically? Is it with your genitals? Is it with what you like to do? Is it with your role in your family or household? Where is "man-ness," and where is "woman-ness?"

It's in your head!

What does that mean, 'feeling like a female', though, if not being attracted towards 'feminine' behavior and disposition?

Tomboys are still girls - most of the time - and the kid nerdy1's son had for a playdate is still a boy, in spite of the fact that their behaviors are more stereotypical of the other gender (though I think that there's always been less concern about girls playing in ways similar to boys, and less now than there ever was as compared to boys). I know the natural question is, "Well, if masculinity and femininity are social constructs, why do transgender children act in very stereotypically gendered ways?" And this is actually sort of the point; the child identifies as a particular gender, and that identification with that gender means that the child then behaves in ways that are socially appropriate for that gender. I might be misremembering but I seem to recall reading that this can also be seen in adults who transition later in life, where a person might act in (almost exaggeratedly) stereotypical gendered terms especially early on.

In other words, the child's internal sense of being female (or male) is one issue; their behaving in stereotypically male or female ways says more about what the child has picked up on what is considered masculine or feminine behavior. In other words, if we lived in a society where behaviors were gendered differently, we would see entirely different behaviors from a child who identified as female (and this would be true for someone who is either cisgender or transgender). And while there is always the odd child who identifies as the gender that matches their physical sex, but ends up acting in ways that are more associated with the opposite sex, but these cases are notable precisely for being more uncommon, especially among boys. It would be rather unusual for a biological boy who identifies as a girl to then also to present as a tomboy, I suspect. But maybe TransGAF can correct me on that point.

In the end it comes to using gender identity as the main argument, but as you can see a lot of people do not grasp this very concept.

Yes.

 

[Snkfanatic]

I don't have much to add but that picture in the OP is adorable.

 

[RDreamer]

Well, I think "man-ness" in that graph in essentially "the extent to which you identify as a man"; in that case it is acknowledging the fact that there are some people for whom their sense of being male or female is not particularly strong (or nonexistent) and so for them they would place themselves low on both their sense of being a man and their sense of being a woman. This person would be genderless. Conversely it might be that someone equally identifies as male and female . These are obviously extremely uncommon but I think that is what is meant by that term in that context.

I'm not sure what alternative you are proposing, though.

I'm not sure I'm proposing anything other than the fact that this stuff might not be able to realistically translate into a graph at all. Also I don't understand if we control for expression, physical sex, and attraction, what exactly is left to show your gender? What exactly are you identifying with?

I don't think that is the opposite of what I'm saying; I think you're simply giving an explanation (one I happen to agree with) for why these things are more salient for someone who is not in the dominant class. But I also think that simply being in a minority status in any situation - even if there is no racism or whatever happening - can make you more conscious of your own status. This is even true for someone who is generally in the majority (e.g. a straight person at a gay bar or a white person in situation where he is in the minority). And this would still be true even in that hypothetical world you mentioned.

Sure being a minority can make you more cognizent, but when does this become an identity? If I am in a room with people who all have smaller noses should I suddenly identify myself as a "large nosed person?" Or am I just a person who has a large nose? Nose is something that largely doesn't matter in society, and so I feel it's a good representation that the societal constructs are what make us identify personally as these sorts of things not that the inherent difference is our identity.

It's in your head!

Yes the feeling is in your head, but you should still be identifying with something. Where is the concept coming from? What is a gender? What is a man? What is a woman? What are they if they are not the expression of traditional gender roles, any physical characteristics, or attraction to any other gender?

Again, is it just being comfortable with the physical genitalia of your body at that moment?

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Wouldn't letting it use the female bathroom set a bad precedent? All some perv would have to do is dress up as a woman, claim to be transgendered and then go into women's bathrooms/locker rooms etc.

And then? I'm sure it's illegal to harass others in their bathroom stalls no matter what the perpetrator has between the legs. Perhaps seperate bathrooms for perverts would be a solution.

 

[Cat Party]

Wouldn't letting it use the female bathroom set a bad precedent? All some perv would have to do is dress up as a woman, claim to be transgendered and then go into women's bathrooms/locker rooms etc.

This is a child, not an "it."

 

[Mumei]

I'm not sure I'm proposing anything other than the fact that this stuff might not be able to realistically translate into a graph at all. Also I don't understand if we control for expression, physical sex, and attraction, what exactly is left to show your gender? What exactly are you identifying with?

Well, your gender can either refer to your gender identity (your subjective sense of what gender you are) or your gender expression.

This sort of reminds me of a conversation with an uncle at Thanksgiving, who wanted to know why I celebrated Thanksgiving when I'm an atheist: "But how can you celebrate Thanksgiving if you aren't giving thanks to something?" And I guess I'd never (and still don't) really see at as important that I give thanks to something. For me, being thankful for what I have is simply having an appreciation for the good things in my life and doesn't require that I actually offer my thanks to anything external.

So, I suppose somewhat similarly I've never really thought of this as identifying with something and more an issue of identifying as a boy or a girl and this self-identification is entirely subjective and internal and is not subject to external references (e.g. your physical sex).

Sure being a minority can make you more cognizant, but when does this become an identity? If I am in a room with people who all have smaller noses should I suddenly identify myself as a "small nosed person?" Or am I just a person who has a small nose? Nose is something that largely doesn't matter in society, and so I feel it's a good representation that the societal constructs are what make us identify personally as these sorts of things not that the inherent difference is our identity.

I agree with this.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

So should there be a transgender bathroom to go with boys/girls? Or I guess just a unisex one at every boy/girl bathroom location?

Why are there boy/girl bathrooms?

 

[RagnarokX]

I'm not saying it's fair, but by that logic, why even have separate bathrooms?

Because then mens rooms couldn't have urinals? Plus most people with male genitals are men rather than women.

 

[Aristion]

Wouldn't letting it use the female bathroom set a bad precedent? All some perv would have to do is dress up as a woman, claim to be transgendered and then go into women's bathrooms/locker rooms etc.

"It"? She's a girl.

 

[RDreamer]

So should there be a transgender bathroom to go with boys/girls? Or I guess just a unisex one at every boy/girl bathroom location?

Why are there boy/girl bathrooms?

I propose urinal and non-urinal bathrooms. If you can pee standing up, then have at those urinals. You get to go in and out in a hurry. If you feel like sitting down in a stall or have to sit down to do your business, into the non-urinal bathroom you go.

Seems to be a decent transitionary solution.

This is bollocks. Gender is one of the first concepts children grasp.

That's probably because it's one of the first things we throw at our kids. Parents will clothe them in nothing but pink or blue depending on sex and give them either dolls or trucks depending on sex. That doesn't mean these children understand gender at all. It means they understand what society has thrust upon them as gender appropriate.

 

[Mumei]

That's probably because it's one of the first things we throw at our kids. Parents will clothe them in nothing but pink or blue depending on sex and give them either dolls or trucks depending on sex. That doesn't mean these children understand gender at all. It means they understand what society has thrust upon them as gender appropriate.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, it is true that very early on children's concept of gender is not very strong. Before the age of around five or six, children tend to identify gender as being the result of physical attributes (short hair or having bigger muscles or whatever) or accoutrements (a purse, a briefcase, a business suit, a dress) or behaviors (cooking dinner, changing the tire).

But around the age of five or six, children begin to have the cognitive ability to identify gender as an attribute of a person and not merely the result of those other things.

 

[BocoDragon]

So should there be a transgender bathroom to go with boys/girls? Or I guess just a unisex one at every boy/girl bathroom location?

Why are there boy/girl bathrooms?

Ultimately it's kind of sexist to have boy/girl bathrooms, isn't it? Seems to imply than men and women need protection from one another.

What if in hundreds of years we look back on them like race-segregated water fountains?

 

[RDreamer]

Well, yes and no.

Yes, it is true that very early on children's concept of gender is not very strong. Before the age of around five or six, children tend to identify gender as being the result of physical attributes (short hair or having bigger muscles or whatever) or accoutrements (a purse, a briefcase, a business suit, a dress) or behaviors (cooking dinner, changing the tire).

But around the age of five or six, children begin to have the cognitive ability to identify gender as an attribute of a person and not merely the result of those other things.

Most grown adults can't even do this. People in this thread are still confused about this. I'm confused about this, since outside of physical characteristics, behaviors, and societal norms there really isn't much else to identify with. How is a six year old identifying this?

Again, I get that they could identify a problem, perhaps that they do not fit in their own body. I liken that to being allergic to a piece of yourself. It's an oddity, but I understand how the psyche and the body could separate at some point and the mind could feel the body is foreign. I still don't get where gender is coming from outside of just being comfortable in the body you have or not comfortable in the body you have.

 

[Dead Man]

Most grown adults can't even do this. People in this thread are still confused about this. I'm confused about this, since outside of physical characteristics, behaviors, and societal norms there really isn't much else to identify with. How is a six year old identifying this?

Again, I get that they could identify a problem, perhaps that they do not fit in their own body. I liken that to being allergic to a piece of yourself. It's an oddity, but I understand how the psyche and the body could separate at some point and the mind could feel the body is foreign. I still don't get where gender is coming from outside of just being comfortable in the body you have or not comfortable in the body you have.

If you took your brain out of your body, would you still feel like a male of the species? If it was put into the body of a robot dog, you would still feel like a human brain in the wrong body. It's like that.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

You don't choose which bathroom to go in based on how you feel about yourself. If you have a dick, go in the men's. if you don't, go in the girls.
I totally agree with this call, especially if we're talking about first graders.

Sort of my feeling about this, but I'm torn because of what it implies in terms of equal treatment. Sticky situation.

 

[JDSN]

It seems to me that there are probably some external parties involved pushing the school towards this regrettable conclusion, she used to use the restrooms and now she can basically use all but the girl ones. Still, no simpathy for the school if they get sued, an school is supposed to be a place to nurture mental growth at all levels.

 

[RDreamer]

If you took your brain out of your body, would you still feel like a male of the species? If it was put into the body of a robot dog, you would still feel like a human brain in the wrong body. It's like that.

I wouldn't have a penis, so no I wouldn't. Again, I don't feel male. I am a male because I have a penis, but I don't identify myself as male. I'm just me. The penis is for sexual gratification and other bodily functions. I don't have such an attachment to it though that I would long for it unless of course I had no other way of getting off sexually. I guess I would feel closer to males in that my social traits are a bit closer in that direction, but people have rejected that (and rightfully so) as a marker of gender, since that's just the product of society on you and not anything inherent in you.

And again, I understand completely that there could be a disconnect in mind and body, that the mind would develop in such a way to reject the body as self, and fixing that is of utmost importance. Because I believe the mind to be the correct identifier of the self rather than the body I'd fix the body portion to get them to correlate. These things don't really connect, though, to gender identity to me, because a lot of people have thrown out physical attributes altogether as an identifier for gender, and you have pictures like that genderbread man that has a scale. If it's merely having the correct genitalia, then there isn't really a fluidity to it as the picture implies. You're either male or female in that case. But people reject that.

 

[GungHo]

The purple hair is throwing me off. She's in 1st grade, why would her parent allow this? Makes me question the parents.

Pretty simple.

"Dad, I want to dye my hair purple."
"Let me look at that shit. Ok, says here this won't fuck up your hair or give you cancer, so here you go."

or

"Dad, I want to dye my hair purple."
"Let me look at that shit. Ok, says here this will fuck up your hair or give you cancer, so how about no?"

 

[Trojita]

They had a video clip on CNN earlier of her earlier. It looked like her hair was colored normally again. They will have her on CNN tomorrow it said.

Also my sister had this barbie where if you sprayed her hair her hair would turn pink. I'm not going to lie, it was pretty awesome.

 

[GungHo]

They had a video clip on CNN earlier of her earlier. It looked like her hair was colored normally again. They will have her on CNN tomorrow it said.

Also my sister had this barbie where if you sprayed her hair her hair would turn pink. I'm not going to lie, it was pretty awesome.

Amazingly enough, they make hair coloring products that wash out pretty easily nowadays. You don't have to shave your head just because you decided to let your freak flag fly and miscalculated.

 

[Canuck76]

This is completely ridiculous. Kid is literally less than 10 and is already identifying himself as transgender. In first grade is this kid knowing what he wants sexually? No. Of course not. That in and of itself is ridiculous. Let's move onto the bathroom issue. You have a penis use the mens. If you have a vagina use the females. Pretty simple guidelines.

When i was a kid i wanted to be batman but i didn't get to have my own frigging bathroom to change to bruce wayne and back.

Also how the hell does this kid have female identification on his passport? There's been no sex change surgery if i read the article correctly. Just bizarre. There's definitely a parental issue here.

 

[Zoe]

So should there be a transgender bathroom to go with boys/girls? Or I guess just a unisex one at every boy/girl bathroom location?

Why are there boy/girl bathrooms?

I'm starting to think this might have been a girl thing, but it was not uncommon to use the outside of the stalls as a changing room.

 

[hachi]

Again, is it just being comfortable with the physical genitalia of your body at that moment?

Yes, gender is a process of relating your differentiated physical body to your social and historical context. One might elect to creatively relate these two things in surprising ways, turning defiantly against the common paths, but there is still a certain level of obstinate biology at the heart of the matter; even if some wish we could create our bodies directly from thought, we in fact cannot, and ones entire life is a process of making meaning that bridges your body with your world (even things like your height, physical size, face, etc -- each of which opens and closes certain paths for you, makes you create different kinds of self narratives to fit yourself into your social context.)

So this little boy (yes, I'm using the biological term right now) takes a different path to building his identity, and that's fine on one level. But when it comes to the bathroom and to other instances of the body, there's still a biological difference here. In a few years, these restrooms he wants to enter will be used by girls who are hitting menstruation, whose bodies are undergoing a real change whether or not they identify with it or want it; and their sexual lives will be partly defined by the inherently asymmetric possibility of pregnancy. And if some of these women one day choose to take a different path and be romantic only with other women--thereby reducing that asymmetry of pregnancy for their own sex lives--the biology of even that decision cannot be reduced, for it's ultimately a choice to be with other bodies like their own, to share certain elements and experiences of the female sexual body, some experiences which one cannot simply choose to have if belonging to a different sex biologically.

Bodies are real and have tremendous consequences. One can identify at will, and we should try to accomodate where possible, but it's not entirely absurd for the school to take consideration of his biological sex in certain decisions when it comes to bathrooms. I'm not saying that any decision is easy here, but I find it absurd to claim that the realities of our sexed bodies can ever be completely sidestepped by one's identification.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

This is completely ridiculous. Kid is literally less than 10 and is already identifying himself as transgender. In first grade is this kid knowing what he wants sexually? No. Of course not. That in and of itself is ridiculous. Let's move onto the bathroom issue. You have a penis use the mens. If you have a vagina use the females. Pretty simple guidelines.

When i was a kid i wanted to be batman but i didn't get to have my own frigging bathroom to change to bruce wayne and back.

Also how the hell does this kid have female identification on his passport? There's been no sex change surgery if i read the article correctly. Just bizarre. There's definitely a parental issue here.

Yeah, you tell 'em what's what bro.

 

[genjiZERO]

Watching the video of the kid made me wonder what she would identify as if gender roles wern't so stereotyped for boys and girls. She loves pink and loves dresses. What if in our society it was a-ok for boys to dress pink, wear dresses and play with Barbie? Likewise if girls playing with cars and running around in blue pants was a normal sight.
Would this kid still identify itself or being identified as a girl? To me these are social aspects that could be completely reversed in a different time and different culture.

Can a 6 year old kid actualy reflect about it's sexual physique that its absolutely sure it wants a vagina and not a penis? This for me would be the strongest indicator that the kid is actualy transgender and not just has a quirk for all stereotypical female things. From the video this isnt clear to me. It seems to be much about just the "girly stuff" and i think ther's a danger that the parents and the doctors are putting things in her head come puberty that maybe wouldn't be an issue at all if it was considered ok for a boy to do all the things that society considers to be for females.

That said she should be allowed to use the girls bathroom imo. I don't see a good argument against it.

I posted this on the last page, but there is evidence that aspects of gender behavior is endogenous. Cars in particular were preferentially chosen bu boy monkeys. I don't ultimately disagree with you though.

 

[TCRS]

I don't know much about transgender people, so please don't shoot me down, but could it be that she isn't really transgender, but it's something that her parents have talked her into? Because she played with dolls or something? Kids are pretty easy to convince..

 

[RDreamer]

This is not only incorrect, it is completely incorrect.

Gender identity is one of the core backbones of human society. We cannot live without gender identity. Research shows that people who live without their gender identity can die due to the psychological effects caused.

Children identify with a gender because children are eager to learn and children, more than anything, are eager to tie themselves to things that towards what they belong or what they identify with. Children are constantly evolving and trying to form their own identity.

It is not far fetched that a transgender child, after learning the differences between male and female, and socializes with girls, sees themselves as a female. You mention things like trucks and dolls, when that still is impertinent to the subject of gender identity. Some boys like trucks, some like dolls, some girls like trucks, and others like dolls. Yes, society creates a lot of rules of what gender is what, but the whole point of transgender individuals is that they, or rather we, identify with the other gender in terms of physicality (looks, mannerisms, clothes) and in other cases, base interests.

First, I think you may have misunderstood me. I am not saying that trucks and dolls create a gender identity. I said that society thrusts that upon them as a gender identity.

Second, I'm not sure I understand that research. Could you explain more? Were they in a society? Were they separated from society? They literally just died? I'm not doubting you, I just need a lot more context to what you're saying.

Sure, it's not far fetched that a transgender child after learning the differences between male and female would see themselves as female, but precisely are those differences and what precisely are they seeing themselves as? Is it a physical thing? Is it a behavioral thing? People have thrown those things out as identifiers. People have thrown almost everything out as identifiers, and I'm just confused as to what then you identify with. You say you identify with mannerisms, and that makes you identify as the other gender? Well I don't get why mannerisms would mean that you have the wrong body, necessarily. A mannerism is a lot of times separate from body. You say interests? Well that's a societal construct. That delves into what I was pointing out (a point you may have missed). What exactly about those interests makes them "male?" What might make them "female?" Aren't they just interests?

I get that transgender individuals identify that something is wrong with their body and the way they were born. I understand the disconnect and my brain can comprehend completely how that could come about. And that's fine, and I accept that and their right to change that. If you read my posts I'm sure you'd know this.

I just see genders as a sort of label for attributes we already have, and society has bundled a bunch of them into two specific categories. If we accept that the physical has nothing to do with your gender and the mannerisms don't either, then I just don't see what's left. Those were large parts of the old construction of those categories. Why do we need those categories? I get that people need and crave an identity in a society or group. They need to see where they fit in, and what role they play in a society. That's natural. But we have many other ways to identify ourselves and fit in with our society that I just don't know why keeping gender as a male or female needs to stay. Why can't I just be me and you just be you. You have your preferences and behaviors and mannerisms and all of that and I have mine, and we are all ok with those things?

 

[Canuck76]

I don't know much about transgender people, so please don't shoot me down, but could it be that she isn't really transgender, but it's something that her parents have talked her into? Because she played with dolls or something? Kids are pretty easy to convince..

I would agree with this. I highly doubt this all self motivated by him.

 

[bangai-o]

I don't know much about transgender people, so please don't shoot me down, but could it be that she isn't really transgender, but it's something that her parents have talked her into? Because she played with dolls or something? Kids are pretty easy to convince..

a child's caregivers (parents) and environment have everything to do with cognitive development. that means social skills, brain development, communicative skills, and pragmatics.

 

[Dude Abides]

I don't know much about transgender people, so please don't shoot me down, but could it be that she isn't really transgender, but it's something that her parents have talked her into? Because she played with dolls or something? Kids are pretty easy to convince..

Could be. Doesn't seem likely, though. Why would they try to persuade the kid she's transgender if she doesn't think she is?

 

[The Librarian]

I can't either. I like to think of myself as forward thinking but enough is fucking enough. This is the kind of shit that makes me hate so many modern parenting tactics. And I am a parent. I have a son and I have a daughter. The boy fucking loves cranes and has loved cranes & tractors since he was crawling. The girl has been obsessed with princesses from the get-go too. This was with almost no effort. I suspect the parents let this kid go down some rabbit hole of gender non-specificity and never should have.

This shit makes it hard for me to pretend I am liberal. I support gay marriage, I support homosexuals in general, but if I can't be convinced to give a flying fuck about this, good luck convincing the Fox News crowd. Good fucking luck. I can't even focus on the issue. All I can focus on is the hoity-toity asshole parents that let the kid question his gender in the first place.

I'm seeing a disconnect here. You say your kids fell into certain behaviors and interests with barely any pushing from you. Now, unless there's evidence to suggest otherwise, shouldn't we assume the same for this kid's parents? So why is what they're doing letting their kid "going down the rabbit hole" while you're parenting method is just fine? Because you disapprove of what the kid has decided?

Oh, wait, you've been banned. Nevermind.

 

[Sibylus]

This is completely ridiculous. Kid is literally less than 10 and is already identifying himself as transgender. In first grade is this kid knowing what he wants sexually? No. Of course not. That in and of itself is ridiculous. Let's move onto the bathroom issue. You have a penis use the mens. If you have a vagina use the females. Pretty simple guidelines.

When i was a kid i wanted to be batman but i didn't get to have my own frigging bathroom to change to bruce wayne and back.

Also how the hell does this kid have female identification on his passport? There's been no sex change surgery if i read the article correctly. Just bizarre. There's definitely a parental issue here.

Yes, it is. Where to begin? You're tying sexuality into this when it isn't the least bit relevant, and you just throw out "simple guidelines" without the barest attempt at justification of your reasoning (or lack thereof).

Next, body and brain sex being "out of alignment" is a well-established fact of physiological variance in the human species. Wanting to be Batman is not. That you trivialize such a serious medical issue with this example betrays the utter disregard you hold for approaching the subject seriously, you only care enough to belittle it with the first crude analogy that comes to mind.

Lastly, you allege the strangeness of the case and parental misconduct devoid of any and all evidence. It's one thing to once again neglect to justify the words that roll off of one's tongue, it's quite another to cast ill intent on the motives of parents without justification.

Care to correct the impression that the foundation of your reasoning is a reactionary gut impulse?

I would agree with this. I highly doubt this all self motivated by him.

And your doubt is based on...

 

[poppabk]

This is not only incorrect, it is completely incorrect.

Gender identity is one of the core backbones of the human psyche. We cannot live without gender identity. Research shows that people who live without their gender identity can die due to the psychological effects caused. Children are constantly evolving and trying to form their own identity.

But this raises the question of whether it is potentially harmful for the other children to remove the tacit understanding of gender at such a young age. Has there been any research on the effects of telling children that their gender identity is not defined externally but internally. For a lot of kids this wouldn't mean anything but for some I can imagine it could result in them having gender issues that would have otherwise not occurred.

 

[bangai-o]

Could be. Doesn't seem likely, though. Why would they try to persuade the kid she's transgender if she doesn't think she is?

because parents.

 

[Dude Abides]

because parents.

Did you have bad ones or something?

 

[GungHo]

I don't know much about transgender people, so please don't shoot me down, but could it be that she isn't really transgender, but it's something that her parents have talked her into? Because she played with dolls or something? Kids are pretty easy to convince..

You know, I've seen some crazy-ass parents in my life, but I've never seen any say "hey, kid, can you pretend to be transgendered so we can get some attention, please? Just put on the dress and daddy will give you a Beamer. Don't worry about all the other people who are gonna fuck with you and treat us like pariahs. Mommy and daddy will be ok after we get off the talk show circuit. Why don't you color your hair in the color you want the car to be?"

Go ahead and vocalize that for me and report back to the rest of the class to tell us how it sounded.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I feel like you can't ask legitimate questions in this thread without being made to feel stupid or like a bigot.

I said legitimate. "Not LOL If he has a penis why does it think he's a girl?!!?" kind of questions.

 

[bangai-o]

Did you have bad ones or something?

what? i replied to someone asking why would parents make that choice for the child. parents do, do that. for example, some parents teach a kid to read early, some parents dont.

 

[Dude Abides]

what? i replied to someone asking why would parents make that choice for the child. parents do, do that. for example, some parents teach a kid to read early, some parents dont.

Lol you're comparing reading to telling a kid to act like a girl against his/her will. You're just assuming these are terrible parents. I don't know why you would just assume that and "lol parents" isn't much of an explanation unless you've got some personal reason to assume parents are terrible as a rule.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

Transgender Threads: A Primer
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491958

I thought this thread was pretty informative.

And I thought this, if accurate and true, probably describes what "being in a wrong body" means for transgendered people.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42287950&postcount=183

So: think about phantom limb syndrome. When someone loses a limb, they often have an experience where they perceive themselves to still have that limb (experiencing itching or pain, misjudging their balance because of the limb's perceived "weight," etc.) This isn't really "mental illness" but it is a primarily mental effect that's incredibly difficult to combat and which lingers long after the actual loss that brings it on.

There's an increasingly large body of scientific evidence that suggests that gender dysmorphia is actually equivalent to phantom limb syndrome -- that one portion of the brain maintains a model of the body and that disagreements between this model and the actual body cause intense discomfort and stress. The effective treatment is to remake the body to match the brain model.

 

[poppabk]

You know, I've seen some crazy-ass parents in my life, but I've never seen any say "hey, kid, can you pretend to be transgendered so we can get some attention, please? Just put on the dress and daddy will give you a Beamer. Don't worry about all the other people who are gonna fuck with you and treat us like pariahs. Mommy and daddy will be ok after we get off the talk show circuit. Why don't you color your hair in the color you want the car to be?"

Go ahead and vocalize that for me and report back to the rest of the class to tell us how it sounded.

I imagine it would be more like the parents would want their child to be different and special and thus celebrate and reinforce any acts that were outside of the norm. Not saying that is the case just that it is not beyond the scope of possibility.
Just as some parents would be loathe to admit that their child was transgendered and would push them to conform to the detriment of the child.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I feel like you can't ask legitimate questions in this thread without being made to feel stupid or like a bigot.

I said legitimate. "Not LOL If he has a penis why does it think he's a girl?!!?" kind of questions.

Reminds me of that avenue Q song "everyone's a little bit racist... sometimes"

 

[bangai-o]

Lol you're comparing reading to telling a kid to act like a girl against his/her will. You're just assuming these are terrible parents. I don't know why you would just assume that and "lol parents" isn't much of an explanation unless you've got some personal reason to assume parents are terrible as a rule.

im basing childhood development on what we know and have researched. A childs upbringing has everything to do with their cognitive development.

http://www.jstor.org/action/doBasic...velopment&hp=25&acc=off&aori=off&wc=on&fc=off

and like electricblanketfire stated, no one can come into this thread and wonder out loud how much the parents had to do with this without being targeted as some hateful person.

 

[computers putin']

I dunno what I do if I was in the schools shoes. Sending her to the boys stall is not a good idea, but you keep sending her to girls bathroom you're bound to have some parents get pissy about it, amongst other things. I'd probably keep letting her going to the girls bathroom, morally it feels like the right choice at least.

 

[Devolution]

People who generally don't have to question their gender or interests don't, that's why it's so hard for CIS people to get it. I've had an easier time understanding because I was a tomboy but I didn't have gender dysphoria.

im basing childhood development on what we know and have researched. A childs upbringing has everything to do with their cognitive development.

http://www.jstor.org/action/doBasic...velopment&hp=25&acc=off&aori=off&wc=on&fc=off

and like electricblanketfire stated, no one can come into this thread and wonder out loud how much the parents had to do with this without being targeted as some hateful person.

children discover themselves physically as toddlers, you don't think they'd know something is off?

 

[Canuck76]

Yes, it is. Where to begin? You're tying sexuality into this when it isn't the least bit relevant, and you just throw out "simple guidelines" without the barest attempt at justification of your reasoning (or lack thereof).

Next, body and brain sex being "out of alignment" is a well-established fact of physiological variance in the human species. Wanting to be Batman is not. That you trivialize such a serious medical issue with this example betrays the utter disregard you hold for approaching the subject seriously, you only care enough to belittle it with the first crude analogy that comes to mind.

Lastly, you allege the strangeness of the case and parental misconduct devoid of any and all evidence. It's one thing to once again neglect to justify the words that roll off of one's tongue, it's quite another to cast ill intent on the motives of parents without justification.

Care to correct the impression that the foundation of your reasoning is a reactionary gut impulse?


And your doubt is based on...

I don't see an age but i assume this kid is in a 6-8 age range. At most this kid was probably enjoying playing with dresses and barbies and his parents took over and forced him to identify as "transgender". I mean what's stopping this kid from waking up tomorrow and not being "transgender"? Have we heard anything from him?

This thing stinks of parents looking for attention.

You are correct in saying this isn't about sex. However one of the factors of gender is sexual preference. Point I'm trying to make is this kid probably has no idea about sex or most likely his own sexual preference, maybe does not even know the difference between a penis and vagina (thinking back to first grade i remember knowing about breasts on females but didn't have much thought beyond that.) It's just ridiculous for this to be an issue this early on when this kid has not developed to where he's thinking about any of this.

Was there even any bullying issues? Parents say they're "worried" but don't mention anything. Would kids even bully him? They'll probably wonder why he looks different ask questions (which are completely valid) but in 1st grade i don't he's going to be on the receiving end of transgender slurs.

 

[TCRS]

You know, I've seen some crazy-ass parents in my life, but I've never seen any say "hey, kid, can you pretend to be transgendered so we can get some attention, please? Just put on the dress and daddy will give you a Beamer. Don't worry about all the other people who are gonna fuck with you and treat us like pariahs. Mommy and daddy will be ok after we get off the talk show circuit. Why don't you color your hair in the color you want the car to be?"

Go ahead and vocalize that for me and report back to the rest of the class to tell us how it sounded.

Why not? Parents put their kids through all sorts of hell if it gives them attention. If they are the uberliberal type who want to show off in their circle or something? And jumped on the slightest hint that their kid MIGHT be transgender? How is that so crazy? I mean it is, clearly. But the theory is not so far off.

As far as I can tell the kid didn't experience much discrimination until the winter break.

Either way, I just thought it's a possibility. As for the kid: let it be. Nobody watches your genitals in the bathroom.

 

[RDreamer]

Lol you're comparing reading to telling a kid to act like a girl against his/her will. You're just assuming these are terrible parents. I don't know why you would just assume that and "lol parents" isn't much of an explanation unless you've got some personal reason to assume parents are terrible as a rule.

There's a large pool of possibilities between being willfully a terrible parent and possibly pushing your child into something they may not have otherwise. It's perfectly possible that they saw this child very interested in things that normally a boy might not be. Maybe they heard the child make statements about wanting to be a girl or wondering what it would be like to be a girl or something like that, but then may have jumped a bit too far to identify her as transgendered. To note: I am not saying that's what happened. I'm just saying you can be well intentioned and misinformed and make mistakes like this very easily. We live in a society that pushes gender roles and norms very hard on children and I could see some parents getting a bit confused on things if their child didn't conform.

 

[Sibylus]

I feel like you can't ask legitimate questions in this thread without being made to feel stupid or like a bigot.

I said legitimate. "Not LOL If he has a penis why does it think he's a girl?!!?" kind of questions.

im basing childhood development on what we know and have researched. A childs upbringing has everything to do with their cognitive development.

http://www.jstor.org/action/doBasic...velopment&hp=25&acc=off&aori=off&wc=on&fc=off

and like electricblanketfire stated, no one can come into this thread and wonder out loud how much the parents had to do with this without being targeted as some hateful person.

Maybe the reason umbrage is taken at this is because there's scant justification for it (purple hair dye in one case, or a gut hunch in another)? Instead of howling martyrdom at one's opinions not being given blanket respect regardless of how well-formulated they are, hoist one's trousers and make a better effort? Asking a question isn't license for shoddy justification. Thoughtfulness is repaid in kind.