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[2014] Xbox One Indie Parity Clause impacting number of announcements for system
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
There are only 4 groups of people on the Internet:
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REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
So apart from those few tweets, have we gotten any feedback? I fear that without more organized action this is going to fall on deaf ears again.
I mean in terms of the way MS tries to whitewash the policy (for the sake of making XBO owners feel "first class") and the disturbing number of XBO owners who keep defending the policy because they apparently never met an indie they liked and don't need all that clutter in the store anyway (not saying that's you). If that's the climate in which the userbase is going to continue to grow, it's not cultivating an appreciation for indie games, so it raises the question just how enticing that userbase might really be in another year or so.
Handy Fake
Member
"I'm not anti-Indie - I have Indie friends - but..."
Not to sound Indie-ist but...
Theres plenty of media articles on it already. Even an interview or two with Spencer. Like i said, its not gonna change until a huge hit for PS4 is made and the dev publically middle fingers MS. As it is theres little reason for them to change it outside of getting rid of a hardcore bullet point. Missing out on a few low radar titles seemingly isnt a big deal to them validated by the clause sticking despite "news" and the aforememtioned missing titles.
Solid points sir. Will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.
funkystudent
Member
Its pretty great to see a scene MS helped popularise with XBLA completely outgrow MS's system and rules and just move on.
Obviously if a game is big enough and the developer still wants it on Xbox, MS will bend the rules but its a shame this cuts off smaller games and press darlings. Something like Pix the Cat will probably never come to XBL for example with the current system.
Obviously if a game is big enough and the developer still wants it on Xbox, MS will bend the rules but its a shame this cuts off smaller games and press darlings. Something like Pix the Cat will probably never come to XBL for example with the current system.
Jacksinthe
Banned
I'm preparing a thoughtful rant I'll post up with a tag tonight aimed at MS. Give me some time. I don't care if I crash and burn with our things but I need to stand up for my brothers and sisters in development. I'll post it in this thread tonight when it goes up.
SerTapTap
Member
I doubt they'll listen to anything but feedback from developers en-masse...and...well, even then, if they're ignoring what's probably about 100 games by now that are on or announced for PS4 but not Xbox One, I'm not sure they even give a fuck at all. They're ignoring literally dozens of games including ones with 100ks of sales, including ones with 90+ metacritic, including ones that used to be xbox exclusive. I just can't imagine they actually care anymore if they're totally fine with missing out on what they've already lost.
Castef
Banned
He forgot the PS4 users wondering why there are no games on the console.
Looking forward to it.
Neuromancer
Member
Handy Fake
Member
The question isn't whether or not indie games are shitty.** It's irrelevant. Period.
If that's the hill you want to die on, go ahead.
It's whether or not MS is actively encouraging a policy that hurts developers and gamers, especially in regards to their own ecosystem.
That's it.
**tagging all indie development with that moniker is absolute nonsense and anyone espousing that should be ashamed.
It takes a lot of time to respond officially about something like this since you have to go through a bunch of chains of commands and such. I know for sure they're listening though.
always the best *salute*
Handy Fake
Member
Back on topic, it's great to hear about the actual trials and tribulations of such things from the developers themselves. Really drives home what a piss-take the whole situation is.
Also - as someone else mentioned earlier before we got a bit wayward - did Microsoft get around to paying the devs what they were owed or is that still ongoing? I suspect that's another thing MS will sharp have to look at with regards to garnering Indie support.
Also - as someone else mentioned earlier before we got a bit wayward - did Microsoft get around to paying the devs what they were owed or is that still ongoing? I suspect that's another thing MS will sharp have to look at with regards to garnering Indie support.
Neuromancer
Member
Scanning the last page of this thread, it doesn't appear so.
The damned truth. Indie games are games, they're not some special genre that you can write off because of tastes.
Handy Fake
Member
Cheers chief.
If not, oerhaos something could be organised amongst the indie dev community for GDC?
Maybe just me, but this year, i'd more fun with Stick it to the Man, Dust or Binding of Isaac than (i.e) Watch Dogs. But that's not the point of this thread.
Good luck man. I really hope your rant doesn't bring you anything else but good news for your game.
Jacksinthe
Banned
I should really label it a "statement", lol. Also, I'm going to make it very abundant I see scorched earth. I'm doing this for everyone else roadblocked by this clause. We will see if the earth renews itself in time.
Ragnarsson
Member
This parity clause is absurd. It doesn't help anyone, it's just a shitty deal for everyone. Indie developers (and Microsoft) lose out on potential revenue, gamers don't get the opportunity to play some great games.
Thank you for this thread, OP!
Thank you for this thread, OP!
We're trying to reach out to him through the US side.
I guess I do have his e-mail address and could just send him a thing directly in Japanese.
That would be amazing, but I doubt it would ever happen.
They're still taking a very wait-and-see approach with this, since not even a single game that does this has been released yet. They know people love the idea, but I think they want to see it out in the wild before going nuts with it.
Fnord
Member
The only way it makes sense for anyone is if MS is in a commanding lead in units sold. They would have all the hand and could basically dictate that games come to their platform. And I believe that's what they were counting on. The PS4 taking the lead by as much as it has pretty much instantly turned the parity clause into a giant clusterfuck for everyone involved.
You know I've been with you day one (see my topic from exactly a year ago today), so you've got my support man. Whatever good that does at this point
DidntKnowJack
Member
Yeah the parity clause just seems like bad policy. Even if their intentions were good in an attempt to attract indies to come to Xbox first. (Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here.) It doesn't seem like its been that effective. Maybe for that reason alone they'll come around and change it. I'm actually a little surprised they haven't, to be honest.
This post is truly epic lol!!! This is sarcasm right? RIGHT?
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
What I don't understand is these people who seem to dislike indie games, didn't have a peep to say when Microsoft spent a generations worth of first party development money on buying Minecraft of all things.
This "I don't like indies" is thinly veiled "I don't any advantage playstation platforms have over Xbox platforms"
Whats especially jarring that without XBLA, its pretty unlikely the console market for indies would even exist at all. Shitty policies aside, Xbla still did alot for both consumers to find and develop an interest in indie games and for indies to explore a non traditional market (at the time).
Don't get me wrong, I think alot of indies are shit, even some of the most well regarded (BoI, Nidhogg, Splunky are some notable examples) But thats my personal preference in games.
For every BoI, There is an Android Assault catus, for every Nidhogg, there is Skullgirls, for every Splunky, there is Cloudberry kingdom.
If you can't find several upcoming indies that you aren't extremely excited about, I question your love for gaming in general. Its ridiculous to think the only games people can enjoy are big budget AAA affairs.
Even if 90% of indie titles are shit to you. There has to be at least 10% you would love.
this policy is preventing you from finding out.
This "I don't like indies" is thinly veiled "I don't any advantage playstation platforms have over Xbox platforms"
Whats especially jarring that without XBLA, its pretty unlikely the console market for indies would even exist at all. Shitty policies aside, Xbla still did alot for both consumers to find and develop an interest in indie games and for indies to explore a non traditional market (at the time).
Don't get me wrong, I think alot of indies are shit, even some of the most well regarded (BoI, Nidhogg, Splunky are some notable examples) But thats my personal preference in games.
For every BoI, There is an Android Assault catus, for every Nidhogg, there is Skullgirls, for every Splunky, there is Cloudberry kingdom.
If you can't find several upcoming indies that you aren't extremely excited about, I question your love for gaming in general. Its ridiculous to think the only games people can enjoy are big budget AAA affairs.
Even if 90% of indie titles are shit to you. There has to be at least 10% you would love.
this policy is preventing you from finding out.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Makes sense. I'm almost ready to bite the bullet on a new stick, but it would be nice for this to happen anyway.
Every developer has to start somewhere, to write off indies is to write off the gaming period.
That said, I wonder what the break down of people who "hate indies" is. I mean, is it younger gamers who didn't grow up in the NES early era? Is it people who only started gaming when it became more mainstream? That'd be a neat statistic.
That said, I wonder what the break down of people who "hate indies" is. I mean, is it younger gamers who didn't grow up in the NES early era? Is it people who only started gaming when it became more mainstream? That'd be a neat statistic.
Elvin Atombender
Member
Does the parity-clause only affect indie-games?
I'm thinking about that Spiderman-game that was suddenly cancelled on Xbox One when it looked like it wouldn't be ready for the release date a few weeks later (I think they managed to get a digital version ready in time for the release).
I'm thinking about that Spiderman-game that was suddenly cancelled on Xbox One when it looked like it wouldn't be ready for the release date a few weeks later (I think they managed to get a digital version ready in time for the release).
Well done on the OP Chubigans, well researched and presented piece, kudos. I hope you and all the other smaller devs teams trying to work with this asinine clause see improvements soon.
This really is a nasty, mean spirited little clause and always has been. It needs to go, in fact more than that it needs never to have existed in the first place, even if it was having the effect Microsoft wanted and was netting them "timed exclusives" by forcing small devs to output on Xbone first (or hold back other versions) it would still be a despicable little practice.
The fact that not only is it not doing what they (presumably) want but hurting their customers and themselves just goes to show that they are more than happy to be perceived as not just mean-spirited but incompetent.
Best of British that man! You have my axe, etc.etc. Though in fairness the axe is slightly rusty and hasn't been sharpened or ground back for some years so it looks more akin to a saw. Thinking about it my Gerber is probably sharper.
/salute
This really is a nasty, mean spirited little clause and always has been. It needs to go, in fact more than that it needs never to have existed in the first place, even if it was having the effect Microsoft wanted and was netting them "timed exclusives" by forcing small devs to output on Xbone first (or hold back other versions) it would still be a despicable little practice.
The fact that not only is it not doing what they (presumably) want but hurting their customers and themselves just goes to show that they are more than happy to be perceived as not just mean-spirited but incompetent.
Best of British that man! You have my axe, etc.etc. Though in fairness the axe is slightly rusty and hasn't been sharpened or ground back for some years so it looks more akin to a saw. Thinking about it my Gerber is probably sharper.
/salute
Neuromancer
Member
I would be willing to bet that everyone who has come in here proclaiming they hate indies have unknowingly played and enjoyed an indie game at some point in the last year or so.
Isn't open_mouth_'s tag "insert_foot" ?
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
The Wii U gets much indie love too, many of the games mentioned in the first post are announced for Wii U too (or already available). And the Wii U has some (console) exclusive indie games like Little Inferno, Art of Balance, Tengami, etc.
Someone brought that up earlier. I'm be curious to see the Wii U indie title numbers for the same time period.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Any Indies in this thread I missed PMing - send me a PM. Need to ask you something, please.
TrebuchetGames
Member
One of the biggest issues which was mentioned in the first post, was that indies don't have massive budgets, they are trying to keep costs down and a staggered release can be the easiest method to get their game out and start getting cash in... they can get some good early PR and it helps them build momentum.
We are currently making a game, and there are so many platforms vying for attention. You have to decide which platforms you can release on from a technical point of view, such as the tools that you have available but also the staff you have to make the game and when you need to get the game out. With so many platforms, resolutions and control methods, indies don't necessarily have the time to do all this at the same time if they want to get a game out. Most indies are living with very small budgets or working full time, so it's a fine balancing act.
We want to release on VITA first (because we love the device and designed the UI initially based on it)...Once we have completed this version we would then know how to publish via Sony and we would then go straight onto a PS4 version before doing other platforms.
So because we are trying to be sensible in what we can make and in what order, the decision to release on XBO later has already been made for us by the clause, so we're not even considering it as a platform now...personally I think that is the wrong way to do things. In the end most indies are trying not champion a particular platform but just make great games on as many platforms and turn a profit so they can make bigger and better games.
Anyway it's all good fun.
We are currently making a game, and there are so many platforms vying for attention. You have to decide which platforms you can release on from a technical point of view, such as the tools that you have available but also the staff you have to make the game and when you need to get the game out. With so many platforms, resolutions and control methods, indies don't necessarily have the time to do all this at the same time if they want to get a game out. Most indies are living with very small budgets or working full time, so it's a fine balancing act.
We want to release on VITA first (because we love the device and designed the UI initially based on it)...Once we have completed this version we would then know how to publish via Sony and we would then go straight onto a PS4 version before doing other platforms.
So because we are trying to be sensible in what we can make and in what order, the decision to release on XBO later has already been made for us by the clause, so we're not even considering it as a platform now...personally I think that is the wrong way to do things. In the end most indies are trying not champion a particular platform but just make great games on as many platforms and turn a profit so they can make bigger and better games.
Anyway it's all good fun.
astrogamer
Member
The difficulty in finding that number is that Nintendo doesn't curate titles often so you literally have to scour Nintendo news sites like gonintendo to get a solid list. Some titles are announced with their release.
There seems to be good indie support by Nintendo so I'm surprised they aren't a little more public about this kind of thing.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Wow you guys are really new I had to do some digging before I found solid information on your studio.One of the biggest issues which was mentioned in the first post, was that indies don't have massive budgets, they are trying to keep costs down and a staggered release can be the easiest method to get their game out and start getting cash in... they can get some good early PR and it helps them build momentum.
We are currently making a game, and there are so many platforms vying for attention. You have to decide which platforms you can release on from a technical point of view, such as the tools that you have available but also the staff you have to make the game and when you need to get the game out. With so many platforms, resolutions and control methods, indies don't necessarily have the time to do all this at the same time if they want to get a game out. Most indies are living with very small budgets or working full time, so it's a fine balancing act.
We want to release on VITA first (because we love the device and designed the UI initially based on it)...Once we have completed this version we would then know how to publish via Sony and we would then go straight onto a PS4 version before doing other platforms.
So because we are trying to be sensible in what we can make and in what order, the decision to release on XBO later has already been made for us by the clause, so we're not even considering it as a platform now...personally I think that is the wrong way to do things. In the end most indies are trying not champion a particular platform but just make great games on as many platforms and turn a profit so they can make bigger and better games.
Anyway it's all good fun.
I'm a big PS Vita fan and I will keep an eye out on your first game so I wish you guys good luck with that.
On topic thought this post is yet another piece of proof on how awful the clause is and it needs to go.
One of the biggest issues which was mentioned in the first post, was that indies don't have massive budgets, they are trying to keep costs down and a staggered release can be the easiest method to get their game out and start getting cash in... they can get some good early PR and it helps them build momentum.
We are currently making a game, and there are so many platforms vying for attention. You have to decide which platforms you can release on from a technical point of view, such as the tools that you have available but also the staff you have to make the game and when you need to get the game out. With so many platforms, resolutions and control methods, indies don't necessarily have the time to do all this at the same time if they want to get a game out. Most indies are living with very small budgets or working full time, so it's a fine balancing act.
We want to release on VITA first (because we love the device and designed the UI initially based on it)...Once we have completed this version we would then know how to publish via Sony and we would then go straight onto a PS4 version before doing other platforms.
So because we are trying to be sensible in what we can make and in what order, the decision to release on XBO later has already been made for us by the clause, so we're not even considering it as a platform now...personally I think that is the wrong way to do things. In the end most indies are trying not champion a particular platform but just make great games on as many platforms and turn a profit so they can make bigger and better games.
Anyway it's all good fun.
Another one for the list. Adding you in, also AbsintheGames might want to talk with you
____________________________________________________________
INDIE DEVS ON GAF HATE IT
_____________________________________________________________
Here's just FIVE from the PHIL SPENCER defends ID@Xbox Parity clause thread (edit: and one from this topic):
BlastProcessing said:
LestradeTCQ said:
TrebuchetGames said:One of the biggest issues which was mentioned in the first post, was that indies don't have massive budgets, they are trying to keep costs down and a staggered release can be the easiest method to get their game out and start getting cash in... they can get some good early PR and it helps them build momentum.
We are currently making a game, and there are so many platforms vying for attention. You have to decide which platforms you can release on from a technical point of view, such as the tools that you have available but also the staff you have to make the game and when you need to get the game out. With so many platforms, resolutions and control methods, indies don't necessarily have the time to do all this at the same time if they want to get a game out. Most indies are living with very small budgets or working full time, so it's a fine balancing act.
We want to release on VITA first (because we love the device and designed the UI initially based on it)...Once we have completed this version we would then know how to publish via Sony and we would then go straight onto a PS4 version before doing other platforms.
So because we are trying to be sensible in what we can make and in what order, the decision to release on XBO later has already been made for us by the clause, so we're not even considering it as a platform now...personally I think that is the wrong way to do things. In the end most indies are trying not champion a particular platform but just make great games on as many platforms and turn a profit so they can make bigger and better games.
Anyway it's all good fun.
FIVE indie devs up and coming, FIVE examples of the parity clause being harmful. + you chubigans makes SIX! This is just on GAF, shitload more commented in media of course.