Does that make it okay to perform a removal of part of a male baby's reproductive organs without his consent?
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50,000 women in Germany have suffered genital mutilation: report
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Does that make it okay to perform a removal of part of a male baby's reproductive organs without his consent?
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
How feasible is it to do the following:
I don't know if such a ruleset is the nuclear option since it comes with some obvious risks such as individual rights and blowback on children from parental retaliation as far as access to things like education and health however the crimes here are extreme as they are may require some forceful reactions to combat them.
- Make education into the age of consent mandatory
- Make medical screenings of children in schools on a yearly basis mandatory - no exemptions
- Make custody laws that force removal of all children from homes of (and prison time for) offending parents
I don't know if such a ruleset is the nuclear option since it comes with some obvious risks such as individual rights and blowback on children from parental retaliation as far as access to things like education and health however the crimes here are extreme as they are may require some forceful reactions to combat them.
Sinfamy
Member
Count Dookkake
Member
Gross.
Lamel
Banned
Damn the prevalence in Africa is extremely high.
frankie_baby
Member
One may have worse effects but mutilating the genitals is just as wrong for both sexes
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Per Wiki:
They include removal of the clitoral hood and clitoral glans; removal of the inner labia; and removal of the inner and outer labia and closure of the vulva. In this last procedure (known as infibulation), a small hole is left for the passage of urine and menstrual fluid; the vagina is opened for intercourse and opened further for childbirth.
As for the why, I mention it previously. To control the sexuality (or 'purity') of women by reducing pleasure or making it painful.
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Mmkay. That's not what was said though.
And here we go
Garrett Hawke
Member
No, but this thread isn't about that and male circumcision isn't really comparable, as almost all circumcised men are still able to enjoy sex and the intent behind the circumsision, while flawed and not really necessary anymore, isn't to limit sexual enjoyment based on gender.
That said, it's probably worth discussing this in a male circumcision thread.
frankie_baby
Member
It's a direct response to the title of the thread
Garrett Hawke
Member
Yup. The wiki article even notes that despite legislation to counter it in many of those countries, it's nearly impossible to enforce. Really sad.
Raonak
Banned
BULLSHIT. It's surprising how common this misconception is...
It's not just skin, it's got tons of nerves which add to the sensation. The tip of the foreskin is super pleasurable,
I'd argue i's more pleasurable than the penis head itself.
FGM is way worse, but let's not pretend circumcision is unrelated.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
This is removing the clitoris so women don't feel pleasure during sex at all. This is fucking barbaric
I feel so weak even posting this right now... I can't...
I think I will never understand why circumcision is so "fashionable" in North America and the lengths to which people will defend it. FGM is obviously way worse but circumcision is definitely there so people enjoy sex less.
Not to mention you're still chopping off skin from a baby.
Last_colossi
Member
This is an atrocity, I can't even comprehend what they've gone through.
I don't think I'll ever understand this mentality, mutilation is mutilation, just because FGM is far worse when compared to male circumcision doesn't mean that male circumcision is fine.
I don't think I'll ever understand this mentality, mutilation is mutilation, just because FGM is far worse when compared to male circumcision doesn't mean that male circumcision is fine.
frankie_baby
Member
I'm not denying one is worse than the other but they are both very wrong and it's a fair bet there will be at least some people posting in this thread commenting against mutilating girls that are quite happy for boys to mutilated
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Thanks, what a dreadful practice. Cultures can come to some really batshit conclusions.
I have to assume the number is so high because of women who had it done before they moved to Germany, judging by how common it seems to be in some countries. Though anyone who does this to their children afterwards absolutely has to face legal consequences. It's violent child abuse.
Edit: Circumcision is far less severe but still clearly nonsensical. Imagine it wasn't ever practiced and someone suggested you do it to a baby. Like FGM, it only exists today because it existed yesterday.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I'm just telling the truth. Don't have a foreskin, well that sort of sucks, but on the bright side your dick still works basically as it should. Maybe you have to buy a fleshlight instead of doing some weird foreskin stretching ritual you learned from reddit/foreskinadvocacy or whatever.
Wth is this?
What am I even reading...?
Raonak
Banned
I think you're mistaken.
The foreskin just naturally stretches as it slides over the head giving additional pleasure during normal sexual activity
WOW this post. Again it's amazing to me that I currently hold my tag on THIS fucking forum lol.
edit-
I think you're mistaken.
The foreskin just naturally stretches as it slides over the head giving additional pleasure during normal sexual activity
To further clarify, the foreskin alone can be stimulated for pleasure, without mechanism to the head. As said before it's not nearly equivalent to FGM, your dick still works as intended, however there is no doubt you've been derived of a significant amount of pleasure if circumcised. I wish I knew what it was like tbh, but I don't blame mine or any other parents given how people treat it like the foreskin is worthless.
The reason people get all culturally relative is because in the past the barbarism paradigm became a justification to do things like abduct Native American kids from their families and put them in abusive boarding schools to "strip the Injun out of em," or to, you know, straight up "cleanse" populations.
All of this is not to say that FGM is in any way defensible. It is an atrocious act that ought to be stopped. It's just that sometimes the line between "this cultural practice is horrible" and "these people as a whole are horrible" gets blurry.
All of this is not to say that FGM is in any way defensible. It is an atrocious act that ought to be stopped. It's just that sometimes the line between "this cultural practice is horrible" and "these people as a whole are horrible" gets blurry.
Anyway, as for the actual topic. I didn't think it would be that many women in Germany with its strict laws but I guess I'm not that surprised if most of these were performed outside of Germany.
At least I dearly hope there isn't a huge amount of instances of FGM being done in the country.
At least I dearly hope there isn't a huge amount of instances of FGM being done in the country.
No. And you have to actually enforce them. Situation is improving under the current legislation atleast.
metalslimer
Member
It happens a lot in America as well, or at least doctors see a lot of children who have it done to them.. If I had my way, the parents who do it would be charged with child abuse but it's a hard thing to combat
Chairmanchuck
Member
Of course there are. But that doesnt really help, if its done "inside their circles".
Two of my classmates from primary school were forced marriaged to someone they never met.
Why? Why is it hard to combat?
Who is performing these disgusting rituals? Isn't that who we should be targetting?
Though I don't really see why there is such difference in how we treat those who do female mutilation with male mutilation. Somehow it's normal with circumcision but an abomination for female circumcision. It's all bad. It's all wrong. It all should be illegal.
It's the kids' parents themselves that seek people from their community to do it. "Regular people" from the communities in question. You have to target the parents as well as the ones who actually use the knives; but sometimes it's the parents that do both, so...
Worth noting that both Sunni and Shia Islam variously consider FGM either obligatory or meritorious, depending on the specific juridical school in question; and orthodox Muslims pay a lot of attention to Islamic scholars. Hence why this is a notoriously difficult practice to stop wherever it exists.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
This is not an Islamic practice actually, no where in any text does it mention FGM. It's a cultural practice predominantly North African. Coming from Saudi Arabia (it's extremely rare for this to happen in Saudi Arabia) I had never heard about FGM until I got into an Anthropology major.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Well you Europeans are very uninformed.
As mentioned above, it's not an Islamic practice. It predates Islam and is not mentioned in the Quran, apparently.
It's more of a regional thing than a religious thing.
Hey buddy, I can tell you straight up that is 110% genuine bullshit.
There are different 'degrees' of FGM - I think the closest to male circumcision is the least dramatic one, where the hood area of the clitoris is trimmed? It's been a while since I read about this. I think that form might even have roots in reducing the complications of living in very arid climates.
That being said, that's the least offensive type, and I think the least frequently practiced. The sort of FGM most women who have had it performed on them deal with is horrifying.
That being said, that's the least offensive type, and I think the least frequently practiced. The sort of FGM most women who have had it performed on them deal with is horrifying.
Islam is too broad to make blanket statements like this.
All the juridical schools of Sunni Islam have commented on FGM and allowed it (two of them require it). FGM is referenced in some of the most important collections of prophetic tradition (Hadith). Most of these people are Sunni.
Opinions are divided among Shia Muslims, but it's at least a 50/50 split.
Dictator93
Member
Um. Fucking unacceptable. Un-fucking-acceptable.
Foreskin has a HUGE roll in pleasure, both for the stimulation of the tissue itself and the protection against keritization it provides for the glans.
Also FGM describes a variety of cutting procedures to female genitalia. It can mean the removal of the clitoral hood (which would be kinda analogous to your usual male circumcision) all the way to a full on removal of all outward facing tissue (labia majora, minora) and the clitorus.
Foreskin has a HUGE roll in pleasure, both for the stimulation of the tissue itself and the protection against keritization it provides for the glans.
Also FGM describes a variety of cutting procedures to female genitalia. It can mean the removal of the clitoral hood (which would be kinda analogous to your usual male circumcision) all the way to a full on removal of all outward facing tissue (labia majora, minora) and the clitorus.
Encountered a few cases of this myself in Sweden, it's really common with women from Somalia and surrounding areas. It's usually discovered when they need some type of gynecological examination, in that case the gynecologist typically removes any stitching (with their consent). The real terrifying thing is how many apparently ask the examiner to stitch them back up again afterwards *shudders* We obviously don't do that.
It really is a horrid practice. Can't do much to reverse it, either.
It really is a horrid practice. Can't do much to reverse it, either.
Is there a source for that?
I've only found one on Wiki, but it says the complete opposite of that:
Edit: I've found more info on it, it seems common in Shafi'i and Hanbali communities especially.
Actually, evaluated as a whole, well done studies indicate no significant difference in pleasure felt by circumcised and uncircumcised men.
I understand you might be referring to studies that may have occurred after I looked last - that would be a couple of years ago. But there seems to be a cycle jerk, where larger and less flawed studies return to the fore mentioned position.
The issue of consent and whether parents should be upholders of this consent still remains on the table for me however.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
Religious rulings allowing FGM does not equal it being an Islamic practice. FGM is not required by Islamic ruling, and the vast majority of the time it's not actively promoted, even though it's allowed. Ali AlSistani, a respected Shia cleric, said: "If the purpose of female genital circumcision is cutting clitoris this operation is not right and is not a religious tradition. If the girl is hurt, it is prohibited. Female genital (sexual) mutilation or cutting off a part of her genital is certainly a crime against girls and there is no permission and justification for parents to do this operation."
This issue is complicated, because some use religion to excuse cultural practices and some cultural practices are born out of religious requirement, I think FGM is the latter.
They're not really "communities" but schools of Sunni Islamic law. Shafi'i and Hanbali law requires FGM be performed, whereas the other two (probably listed on that page too I assume) 'only' consider FGM to be an 'honorable' action to be encouraged. Sunni Islamic Law is developed from the collected Hadith traditions, which do mention (and support) FGM. This stuff carries a lot of weight for Sunni Muslims.
Shia Islam follows a different school of legal tradition, but still has issues with FGM support and acceptance. There are (as you mentioned) modernist scholars, both Sunni and Shia, who've pushed back against FGM, but they've encountered their own pushback from the orthodoxy who support it.
IMO we should support reformist Muslims who are right now working on driving down FGM. But it's really a notoriously difficult problem to eradicate; Sunni Muslims who want to hold onto orthodoxy find a lot of support for FGM within the Hadith collections.
Nice avatar btw.
Again, Islam is broad. The problem of FGM is heavily concentrated within Sunni Muslim jurisprudence; most of these people would call al-Sistani an apostate, hypocrite, etc, and consequentially his opinion as a Shia isn't relevant to them, because the Sunnis have their own scholars and their own schools of law. This is why it's a really big bitch of a problem. Also, for every Shia cleric who says no on FGM, someone else with equal or greater clout (like the Ayatollah) has said yes.
SchrodingerC
Member
Except we're not debating the ethics of male circumcision, I'm talking about the practices of MC and FGM themselves.
I will not disagree with you, but again there is a big difference between the practices. FGM's main purpose is to control the body and sexuality of women. In order for MC to be comparable, you'd need to cut off the tip of the penis off or something similar.
I'm not trying to say MC doesn't have it's own problems, but FGM is more of what we define as 'Mutilation'.
I think he's saying for some culture will always matter more than a country's law.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Oh, I think you're right that he meant that.
I never understood this though, if those people cannot accept the restrictions of their new country (in this case not mutilating people) then what are they doing there?
Airola
Member
Yes, personally the penis head for me doesn't bring any pleasure at all. For me doing something to the bare head feels at best like touching a toenail and at worst feels like touching an open wound.
The foreskin, however, is super sensitive in all the good ways. All the touch based pleasure sensations come from the skin.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
I agree with you to, however I disagree with the idea that FGM being allowed is equal to the practice being performed. In gulf countries, who follow the jurisprudence, FGM is very rarely practiced.
And yes There are many rifts within Islam, especially between Shia and Sunni schools of thought. However, Al sistani has influenced amongst Shia muslims, especially in the gulf countries and Iraq.
Sir Alemeth
Member
Wow. They don't even mutilate boys over there like we do in the US, let alone this.
Completely fucked up.
Completely fucked up.
Jesus Christ that is not ok.
Also, FOH with the circumcision false-equivalence. How the fuck do you turkeys think rehashing that tired-ass argument is remotely interesting? Is it some "men's rights/redpill" shit?
Also, FOH with the circumcision false-equivalence. How the fuck do you turkeys think rehashing that tired-ass argument is remotely interesting? Is it some "men's rights/redpill" shit?
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