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[CSJ]

Good job turning a thread about female genital mutilation into a thread about men.

It's a discussion, it's how they work, you can talk about two similar things and carry it on.

 

[zoukka]

And 100 million men in America have

Comparing male and female circumcision is idiotic and you should be ashamed of your post.

 

[Gun Animal]

Good job turning a thread about female genital mutilation into a thread about men.

FGM threads on an explicitly english-speaking, implicitly U.S./U.K./AUS-Centric forum are either going to be de-facto circumcision threads or de-facto immigration threads, as western folk have no reason to hear about or care about FGM except through the lens of circumcision and middle-eastern/african immigration.

So let's shut up about Circumcision for a moment.

1) Is it the West's obligation to enforce it's virtues on foreign soil? Has spreading freedom and democracy in the middle-east ever been a manifest good?
2) Assuming you are anti-war and anti-imperialism, you obviously don't want to enforce western values in the middle-east. In that case, these discussions must revolve around FGM occurring in the west. As this thread clearly is.
3) With that being the case, the questions to ask are A) Why are there people committing FGM in my backyard? and B) What can be done to change this? and failing that, C) how can we keep this situation from getting any worse?

Personally, I think the solution is to offer some kind of educational seminar for immigrants. FGM101: Introduction to Not Mutilating Your Kids

 

[Milly Osworth]

People are horrible.

 

[fabricated backlash]

FGM threads on an explicitly english-speaking, implicitly U.S./U.K./AUS-Centric forum are either going to be de-facto circumcision threads or de-facto immigration threads, as western folk have no reason to hear about or care about FGM except through the lens of circumcision and middle-eastern/african immigration.

So let's shut up about Circumcision for a moment.

1) Is it the West's obligation to enforce it's virtues on foreign soil? Has spreading freedom and democracy in the middle-east ever been a manifest good?
2) Assuming you are anti-war and anti-imperialism, you obviously don't want to enforce western values in the middle-east. In that case, these discussions must revolve around FGM occurring in the west. As this thread clearly is.
3) With that being the case, the questions to ask are A) Why are there people committing FGM in my backyard? and B) What can be done to change this? and failing that, C) how can we keep this situation from getting any worse?

Personally, I think the solution is to offer some kind of educational seminar for immigrants. FGM101: Introduction to Not Mutilating Your Kids

And then discover that these fuckers just travel back to their countries of origins to have some old hag cut off the outer labias with a rusty knife, glass shard or filed finger nail.
These girls need to be rescued. Their families are a real danger to their well being, and need custody needs to be taken away from these monsters.

 

[Shredderi]

Reading up on it reveals it to be an incredibly barbaric thing to do. Holy shit. I hope Germany finds a way to crack down on this. Why do people even want to do this to their kids? How does the concept of their daughters not being able to enjoy sex benefit their parents?

 

[haveheart]

There are.

Im not sure how many of these were performed in Germany, though. The article mentions that the number of women who it has been performed on has increased, but not necessarily that every new case occurred in germany between the last check.

So for example some refugees or immigrants may already have had the operation before entering Germany, while according to the article some have been taken back to countries where it is legal to have it performed.

Messed up stuff.

TheLocal makes all of this pretty unclear, also looks like they got some translation problems. The original article by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (reliable quality media) that they cited doesn't state anything about these practices being undertaken in Germany. They specifically state that families with certain ethnic backgrounds (Eritrea etc.) would fly to Africa to have these operations.

I was pretty shocked when I read the Local's article but nowhere in the original source does it say that these "surgeries" are done in Germany.

 

[storafötter]

For the uninformed peeps this vice news report is pretty good on laying out the ground works, problems and trauma associted with FGM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YDZxFkxWs

In this case for these women "luckily" their vulva was sewn in and not cut so they were able to reverse it some of the physical damage. People are too ignorant unfortunately about FGM and it boils my head when I read comparisons with male circumcision.

Really ugly numbers those statistics.

 

[Gun Animal]

And then discover that these fuckers just travel back to their countries of origins to have some old hag cut off the outer labias with a rusty knife, glass shard or filed finger nail.
These girls need to be rescued. Their families are a real danger to their well being, and need custody needs to be taken away from these monsters.

In your hypothetical scenario:

1, immigrants return to their home country
2. immigrants perform surgery under the same conditions they would have in your country
3. immigrants return to your country after having mutilated their child

At what point in this scenario did they become a problem for your legal system and community?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

It is a pre-Islamic tradition, but that doesn't mean there isn't an Islamic influence to this tradition. Otherwise why the fuck would they do it in Indonesia of all places?

It is pre-Islamic, but the fact it is considered 'noble' in the hadith has made the tradition way more wide-spread.

The hadith can be blamed for many things tbh. It's just another case of continuing an abhorrent practice because it was favourable for islam to spread.

 

[michaelius]

And 100 million men in America have

WTF? Men one is harmless and in hot areas of the world done for hygiene reasons - the only reason it's done for women is to make sure they can't receive pleasure during sex.

 

[fabricated backlash]

In your hypothetical scenario:

1, immigrants return to their home country
2. immigrants perform surgery under the same conditions they would have in your country
3. immigrants return to your country after having mutilated their child

At what point in this scenario did they become a problem for your legal system and community?

The moment these fuckers applied for citizenship or refugee status.
Attempts to prevent families to torture and mutilate their kids in Germany have been met with a tendency to just smuggle the girls out of the country and then once mutilated, return them to Germany.

Education only goes that far when these monsters are hell bent on mutilating their kids, because they went through it as well. At this point the safety of these girls needs to take absolute priority. It's not good enough to do something after the fact.

How is this even up for discussion. These people are cutting up their girls. Cultural tolerance doesn't extend to mutilation.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I suppose that's a valid argument. Still wondering about the prevalence outside of the local Muslim communities though.

That's going to be hard because the Horn of Africa, the same region where the practice was always a thing, is now mostly islamic. You may find Christians in those areas not practicing FGM, because:

1. Foreign Christians would tell them not to. Christianity has a hierarchy, so they would probably accept it. Islam has no hierarchy, anyone can say 'this is my culture' and that's the end of it. Islam unlike Christianity also can't really be upgraded, so because it took a neutral stance, it is never going to be able to reverse this.

2. They have learned to avoid engaging in the practice because that way marriage between the two different religions will be avoided. They are also a minority, so they will likely want to differ from the majority in their religious practices anyway.

 

[psychowave]

Good job turning a thread about female genital mutilation into a thread about men.

Yeah, I'm really glad a thread about girls getting their vulvas chopped off turned into a discussion on whether foreskin stimulation feels good or not.

 

[Gun Animal]

The moment these fuckers applied for citizenship or refugee status.
Attempts to prevent families to torture and mutilate their kids in Germany have been met with a tendency to just smuggle the girls out of the country and then once mutilated, return them to Germany.

Education only goes that far when these monsters are hell bent on mutilating their kids, because they went through it as well. At this point the safety of these girls needs to take absolute priority. It's not good enough to do something after the fact.

How is this even up for discussion. These people are cutting up their girls. Cultural tolerance doesn't extend to mutilation.

So you agree that it became a problem at the initial point of immigration/refuge? Hmm.

That's going to be hard because the Horn of Africa, the same region where the practice was always a thing, is now mostly islamic. You may find Christians in those areas not practicing FGM, because:

1. Foreign Christians would tell them not to. Christianity has a hierarchy, so they would probably accept it. Islam has no hierarchy, anyone can say 'this is my culture' and that's the end of it. Islam unlike Christianity also can't really be upgraded, so because it took a neutral stance, it is never going to be able to reverse this.

2. They have learned to avoid engaging in the practice because that way marriage between the two different religions will be avoided. They are also a minority, so they will likely want to differ from the majority in their religious practices anyway.

Islam doesn't have an international hierarchy? Source on that? Mindblowing if true.

WTF? Men one is harmless and in hot areas of the world done for hygiene reasons - the only reason it's done for women is to make sure they can't receive pleasure during sex.

Why are cutters always so low-info?

 

[electroshockwave]

WTF? Men one is harmless and in hot areas of the world done for hygiene reasons - the only reason it's done for women is to make sure they can't receive pleasure during sex.

As far as I know female genital mutilation takes several different forms. The more horrible ones can involve complete removal of the clitoris whereas the less severe involves "trimming" the labia. Male circumcision is at least equivalent to the latter.

EDIT probably not the best looking at this thread. I just hopped in at the end without going all the way through.

 

[Sijil]

Islam doesn't have an international hierarchy? Source on that? Mindblowing if true.

Sunnis have no official hierarchy, if the Azhar Mosque or the KSA scholars say something is illegal a Sunni can do his own jurisprudence and do whatever he wants as long as he does not blaspheme. Much like how Azhar calls Al Quaeda and ISIS apostates and yet they still draw recruits from Egypt regardless.

Shias have some form of hierarchy, Prominent clerics like Sistani, Khamenei and the late Fadlallah are the most followed. Sistani and Fadlallah forbid FGM while Khamenei says it is not necessary nor an obligation, think because FGM is still practiced by northern Iranian, Kuridsh and Azeri tribes, he wouldn't want to piss them off.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

^ Yup.
And most Muslims are sunnis.

 

[Pandaman]

WTF? Men one is harmless and in hot areas of the world done for hygiene reasons - the only reason it's done for women is to make sure they can't receive pleasure during sex.

The only reason the mens one is done is to stop boys from masturbating.

 

[Isotropy]

WTF? Men one is harmless and in hot areas of the world done for hygiene reasons - the only reason it's done for women is to make sure they can't receive pleasure during sex.

So GAF has an infant genital mutilation defence force. There's one for everything...

 

[Shredderi]

As much as I think there is a serious discussion to be had about men's circumsision (I don't support it that much), I think that could have a thread of it's own.

 

[Oersted]

Do the US have something comparible as the hadith in Islam? And if so is racism considered noble in that? If so you could debate that it is indeed comparable.

Like said before. It is pre-Islamic, but Islam has had an influence on it. Otherwise I have no clue as why FGM is practized in Indonesia.

Like said before. It is pre-USA, but USA has had an influence on it. Otherwise I have no clue as why racism is practized in USA.

I do find it funny that you try to distance yourself from it tho.

 

[GhostTrick]

To everyone outside Europe: this is is the stuff us Europeans are worried about when we talk about Islamic immigrants having incompatible cultures. I have no issue with Islam itself, but related customs like these have no place in western society.

Excision has shit to do with Islam and has more to do with tribal/regional traditions. Heck, it's also done in some african christian communities.

 

[Gun Animal]

The only reason the mens one is done is to stop boys from masturbating.

I'm on your side on this but that is oversimplified: the original purpose of circumcision was to prevent masturbation. The vast, vast, vast majority of people now rationalize it as "hygenic" because it slightly reduces the chance of penile cancer. (in much the same way that removing 2 percent of the skin on your body would reduce your chances of getting skin cancer by about 2 percent.) There are also studies which suggest that uncut men are more likely to have STDs, but this isn't because the foreskin is inherently less hygienic. Rather, uncut men are far less likely to use condoms, because condoms and foreskin go together like peanut-butter and battery acid.

back on topic, y'all take a look at this Quora thread:
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-woman-who-has-undergone-a-clitoridectomy-attain-an-orgasm

Excision has shit to do with Islam and has more to do with tribal/regions traditions. Heck, it's also done in some african christian communities.

You're right, we should be identifying the specific tribes and regions that practice FGM and scrutinizing their immigration instead. Thanks for contributing to the discourse! :^)

 

[Stop It]

Because of sexual control over women. FGM's purpose isn't hygienic, it's to destroy even the possibility of female promiscuity; the clitoris is removed to prevent pleasure from sex, the labia are sewn to ensure that she can only urinate and never even think about masturbating, etc. Also it makes it "easy" to make sure that they stay virgins until marriage.

That, btw, is why it's so insanely stupid to compare this with male circumcision.

The hygiene issue is also completely nonsense and as a UK'er where circumcision isn't a matter of course I find it utterly bizarre.

But yes, circumcision is not about controlling men. FGM is 100% about controlling girls by societies that still seem to see women as possessions than people.

As stated before, good education and empowering girls to fight for their rights to not be treated as 2nd class citizens and not to accept this treatment for their daughters.

As for it being a culture thing? I'm sure 50% of the countries affected by this would like a say, not just the men who impose this. You can also respectfully say that this isn't acceptable, which every responsible government should be doing to any neighbours who accept or choose to ignore this practice.

Cultures can evolve and should not be left to continue barbarism like this just because. This isn't an excuse to be anti refugee like the idiots at Breitbart would love people to think but more reason why we need the west to keep the arms open and provide safety for anyone who needs it. Once here you then root out practices like this as this is not acceptable and provide the means to protect future generations.

A separate debate about circumcision is valid but for another thread methinks.

 

[Gun Animal]

But yes, circumcision is not about controlling men.

Ask someone who supports FGM if it's about controlling women. Ask them if FGM is hygienic. Nobody on planet earth is a nazi darth vader cartoon character you manichean.

If the concern people actually have is the victims of FGM, then surely they agree that it is easier to fix that when the victims and perpetrators are in a Western country?

People using it as a way to demonise immigrants and stop them coming just goes to show that they're concern clearly is not with the victims.

Morality can be conceptualized on an individual level or at a community level, or a national level, global, etc. The fact that we are speaking in broad generalities on an internet forum indicates that the individual is not the issue at hand. I would assert that displacement levels of immigration from an incompatible culture creates more current physical and future theoretical victims within the native population than it can ever alleviate for the immigrating population. A community is defined by the people in it.

 

[Wrestlemania]

If the concern people actually have is the victims of FGM, then surely they agree that it is easier to fix that when the victims and perpetrators are in a Western country?

People using it as a way to demonise immigrants and stop them coming just goes to show that their concern clearly is not for the victims.

 

[Chuckie]

Like said before. It is pre-USA, but USA has had an influence on it. Otherwise I have no clue as why racism is practized in USA.

I do find it funny that you try to distance yourself from it tho.

Distance myself from what? The USA? That is because I am not American.

Racism is closely related to European imperialism and colonialism. I have no problems admitting that.

It is also very clear that FGM and Islam are related to eachother, even though Islam did not invent it. Like I said, how is it otherwise possible this is a practice in Indonesia?
Do you have any other suggestion how it 'flew over' there if not the influence of Sunni Islam in Indonesia?

 

[Raonak]

I think this kinda thing go part and parcel with sexuality supression. Hopefully it'll just change in time.
Religious leaders need to tell people to stop doing it.

There is no male equivalent. Are you suggesting that circimcision is as bad as female genital mutilation?

No, not as bad.
But probably as bad as some lighter forms of female genital mutilation.

Is there really much of a difference of lightly trimming the labia vs circumcision?

It's all fucked up shit that needs to stop. (Unless it's an emergency or required for medical reasons)
I find it super strange some people defend one while attacking the other, when the whole thing is bad.

 

[Stop It]

Ask someone who supports FGM if it's about controlling women. Ask them if FGM is hygienic. Nobody on planet earth is a nazi darth vader cartoon character you manichean.

Except it totally isn't about hygiene. The entire point is to remove female sexual agency so men can be confident that they get their "pure" girls to marry.

There is no acceptable explanation for FGM and I care little for people who say "but think about what the other side might think".

Anyone who even utters the word "hygiene" in defence of FGM is lying to themselves and others. That won't fly.

 

[Gun Animal]

I think this kinda thing go part and parcel with sexuality supression. Hopefully it'll just change in time. Religious leaders need to tell people to stop doing it.



No, not as bad.
But probably as bad as some lighter forms of female genital mutilation.

Is there really much of a difference of lightly trimming the labia vs circumcision?

It's all fucked up shit that needs to stop. I just find it super strange to defend one while attacking the other, when the whole thing is bad.

Care to speculate on the motivation behind the double-standard?

Except it totally isn't about hygiene. The entire point is to remove female sexual agency so men can be confident that they get their "pure" girls to marry.

There is no acceptable explanation for FGM and I care little for people who say "but think about what the other side might think".

Anyone who even utters the word "hygiene" in defence of FGM is lying to themselves and others. That won't fly.

Try to practice some level of self-awareness.

fixed it for ya

circumcising a baby or child who cannot consent is obviously bad. not sure it compares to GETTING YOUR FUCKING CLITORIS CHOPPED OFF oh god just the thought of that has be squeezing my legs together in sympathy pain

USE LATERAL THINKING

 

[pashmilla]

Good job turning a thread about anything not related to men into a thread about men.

fixed it for ya

circumcising a baby or child who cannot consent is obviously bad. not sure it compares to GETTING YOUR FUCKING CLITORIS CHOPPED OFF oh god just the thought of that has be squeezing my legs together in sympathy pain

 

[michaelius]

The only reason the mens one is done is to stop boys from masturbating.

Just to make sure we are still talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

?

 

[mocolostrocolos]

The number of women from these countries living in Germany increased by 40 percent between 2014 and the middle of 2016.

I wonder why...

 

[Gun Animal]

Just to make sure we are still talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#History

why would you link to an article and then not read the article

In his 1891 work History of Circumcision, physician Peter Charles Remondino suggested that it began as a less severe form of emasculating a captured enemy: penectomy or castration would likely have been fatal, while some form of circumcision would permanently mark the defeated yet leave him alive to serve as a slave.[23][81]

Circumcision did not become a common medical procedure in the Anglophone world until the late 19th century.[88] At that time, British and American doctors began recommending it primarily as a deterrent to masturbation.[88][89] Prior to the 20th century, masturbation was believed to be the cause of a wide range of physical and mental illnesses including epilepsy, paralysis, impotence, gonorrhea, tuberculosis, feeblemindedness, and insanity.[90][91] In 1855, motivated in part by an interest in promoting circumcision to reduce masturbation, English physician Jonathan Hutchinson published his findings that Jews had a lower prevalence of certain venereal diseases.

THAT'S FROM YOUR LINK

WHY DO I SUBJECT MYSELF TO THIS

 

[DrunkShogun]

Female circumcision is fucked up. From a Muslim family with Pakistan origins and this shit makes everyone feel nasty thinking about it. Male circumcision is the only thing in my family and that's always been justified as a hygiene thing.

 

[Stop It]

Care to speculate on the motivation behind the double-standard?


Try to practice some level of self-awareness.

USE LATERAL THINKING

I'd like you to practice making an actual point.

 

[Gun Animal]

I'd like you to practice making an actual point.

You seem as barbaric and intolerable to me as those people practicing FGM seem to you. All of your arguments and apologetics fall apart just as quickly as theirs. You have a case of extreme cognitive dissonance.

...and? doesn't matter if it's a 'religious thing', a 'cultural thing', a 'regional thing' or whatever hand-waving term you wanna use. call it out for what it is: fucked.

how do you legislate against fucked

 

[Jake.]

It's more of a regional thing than a religious thing.

...and? doesn't matter if it's a 'religious thing', a 'cultural thing', a 'regional thing' or whatever hand-waving term you wanna use. call it out for what it is: fucked.

 

[Stop It]

You seem as barbaric and intolerable to me as those people practicing FGM seem to you. All of your arguments and apologetics fall apart just as quickly as theirs. You have a case of extreme cognitive dissonance.



how do you legislate against fucked

You don't have a point, got it.

Fighting for the right for women to not have FGM inflicted on them is now just as bad as supporting it? Fuck right off.

Edit: and if you are being deliberately obtuse I do not support non medical required circumcision either. I think we get by ok without it here in the UK!

 

[psychowave]

Can y'all make a thread about circumcision and take this discussion here? Can we just have one thread about women's issues where we don't discuss penises? Pretty please?

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Only in that it protects the glans from damage.

Without my foreskin i wouldn't even know how to masturbate.
Feels like no fun without it.

 

[Christhor]

Wait, what? I thought Germany was supposed to be one of the most progressive countries in the world. Guess even Germany's a shithole.

 

[Aytumious]

Wait, what? I thought Germany was supposed to be one of the most progressive countries in the world. Guess even Germany's a shithole.

Do you think people magically give up cultural practices when they enter Germany?

 

[Christhor]

Do you think people magically give up cultural practices when they enter Germany?

Integrating people and preventing things like this is Germany's responsibility.

 

[Shredderi]

Integrating people and preventing things like this is Germany's responsibility.

It's propably super hard or close to impossible to monitor what everyone do in their own homes. These were not done at a hospital or at a real clinic. How do you stop people from doing this in their own homes? Educating will take time to sink in and even then it won't completely stop this.

 

[Nabbis]

Integrating people and preventing things like this is Germany's responsibility.

I don't even know where to begin. Might just well say "No u" and it would be the same argument.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Integrating people and preventing things like this is Germany's responsibility.

Or, you know, the responsibility of the people doing these terrible things? And every fucker that participates in it should be thrown in jail or kicked out of the country.

I don't see how it is Germany's responsibility to educate people in not abusing your kids.

2) Assuming you are anti-war and anti-imperialism, you obviously don't want to enforce western values in the middle-east. In that case, these discussions must revolve around FGM occurring in the west. As this thread clearly is.

What I'd want is for the governments there to call this barbaric practice out and condemn it every chance they get. This is not about "western values" unless "non-western values" (whatever that is) means being OK with abuse and torture.

 

[Always-honest]

It should stop everywhere in the world.
It's fucking stupid.

 

[Shiggy]

Integrating people and preventing things like this is Germany's responsibility.

You cannot force people to integrate. Or do you want German police going to their homes and shoot them if they refuse to? How can this be prevented when it happens when they are on vacation to their home countries? The law was just changed at the end of last year, thus such mutilation during vacation trips is also an offence.

I assume you aren't from Europe and thus aren't quite familiar about the kind of people we are talking about here. Bear in mind, in Europe we aren't as picky as Americans or Canadians when choosing whom to take in, and thus often don't get the educated, qualified and more progressive people from regions where genital mutilation might occur. These people often don't want to integrate.