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[Fred-87]

I'm with everyone who says that circumcision is not comparable, although it does reduce sensitivity/pleasure slightly. I don't think it's a good thing, but it's not remotely similar in impact.

Lets assume that foreskin has no impact... i dont think its true. But lets asume. Then is it also right to cut of your earlobe because it has little function? No ofcourse it doesnt. Its weired and barbaric. Crazy to even have to talk about it that people would find it okay. As crazy as Trump being president. Something i cant believe its for real.

 

[eot]

Lets assume that foreskin has no impact... i dont think its true. But lets asume. Then is it also right to cut of your earlobe because it has little function? No ofcourse it doesnt. Its weired and barbaric. Crazy to even have to talk about it that people would find it okay. As crazy as Trump being president. Something i cant believe its for real.

It's also generally performed without anesthesia. Then people say "but the baby won't remember it". When did that excuse become valid? Can I do whatever I want to people as long as they don't remember it?

 

[Triangle]

If you break the law you pay the price, no cultural excuses
you don't have to forget all about the culture but if you can't stop mutilating that's screwed up to the max.

 

[Chuckie]

And somehow this thread is still mostly about male circumcision

 

[vonStirlitz]

Interestingly, there is always an increase in these types of stories in advance of elections. Saw a flurry of these type of self/other stories in the UK before Brexit, I assume the US might have had some similar articles in the right media recently.

German election soon. Think we will see more of this sort of reportage?

 

[dan2026]

And somehow this thread is still mostly about male circumcision

Maybe because people bizarrely defend it.

How can you be for male genital mutilation without consent and against female genital mutilation?

It doesn't matter which one is worse. That's irrelevant.
They are both weird barbaric practices.

It's also generally performed without anesthesia. Then people say "but the baby won't remember it". When did that excuse become valid? Can I do whatever I want to people as long as they don't remember it?

The whole practice is fucking sick.

 

[Maledict]

Interestingly, there is always an increase in these types of stories in advance of elections. Saw a flurry of these type of self/other stories in the UK before Brexit, I assume the US might have had some similar articles in the right media recently.

German election soon. Think we will see more of this sort of reportage?

That's paranoid nonsense. Sorry, I work in this sector and it's a growing issue that has been featured more and more in the news over the last few years because it's getting more significant. There were articles about it in the press only a few weeks ago in the U.K.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Interestingly, there is always an increase in these types of stories in advance of elections. Saw a flurry of these type of self/other stories in the UK before Brexit, I assume the US might have had some similar articles in the right media recently.

German election soon. Think we will see more of this sort of reportage?

Bunch of nonsense. It's from a government study just released.

The study, published on Monday by the Family Affairs Ministry

Unless you think the government somehow releases these reports in line with elections.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's paranoid nonsense. Sorry, I work in this sector and it's a growing issue that has been featured more and more in the news over the last few years because it's getting more significant. There were articles about it in the press only a few weeks ago in the U.K.

A case of female genital mutilation (FGM) is either discovered or treated in England every hour, according to analysis of NHS statistics by a charity.

Between April 2015 and March 2016 there were 8,656 times when women or girls attended doctors' surgeries or hospitals and the problem was assessed - the equivalent of one every 61 minutes.

Among those who attended, a case of FGM is newly recorded every 92 minutes on average.

This means a woman or girl has their case recorded by the NHS for the first time, although in many cases they will have been cut some years before but it has not come to the attention of doctors sooner.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-06/female-genital-mutilation-case-reported-every-hour-in-uk/

February 6th was Zero Tolerance Day for Female Genital Mutilation.

Mandatory reporting of all cases of female genital mutilation identified in the UK has now been in place for about 18 months and useful data are emerging.

However, there has still not been a single successful prosecution in the UK, although several cases are currently under police investigation. A major barrier to prosecution is the understandable unwillingness of girls to give evidence in court against family members.

In the last 12 months 8,656 cases were reported of which 5,702 were new referrals to the specialised clinics that treat and care for these women and girl survivors. 106 cases were below the age of 18years. These are people living in the UK who have previously suffered FGM either in their home country or since arrival the UK.

The majority of cases are being reported through specialist health workers and GPs and very few through schools and nurseries, even though the evidence points to the mutilation being increasingly carried out on young children below the age of 10years and even as young as 3 or 4years old. A significant number of cases of FGM are also occurring in young teenage girls.

Approximately half the total UK cases are reported in London, particularly in the boroughs of Brent, Southwark and Ealing and the majority of women and girls have come from countries of east Africa including Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia (half the cases).

http://www.libdemvoice.org/update-o...emale-genital-mutilation-in-the-uk-53235.html

Yup. Very sad and very real problem faced in the world right now. It doesn't help the cause when victims and vocal speakers against it such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali get mocked.

 

[Christhor]

Or, you know, the responsibility of the people doing these terrible things? And every fucker that participates in it should be thrown in jail or kicked out of the country.

I don't see how it is Germany's responsibility to educate people in not abusing your kids.

If Norway can educate people with anti rape courses, then why shouldn't we hold Germany to a similar standard? There is absolutely no excuse to this happening within Germany's borders.

You cannot force people to integrate. Or do you want German police going to their homes and shoot them if they refuse to? How can this be prevented when it happens when they are on vacation to their home countries? The law was just changed at the end of last year, thus such mutilation during vacation trips is also an offence.

I assume you aren't from Europe and thus aren't quite familiar about the kind of people we are talking about here. Bear in mind, in Europe we aren't as picky as Americans or Canadians when choosing whom to take in, and thus often don't get the educated, qualified and more progressive people from regions where genital mutilation might occur. These people often don't want to integrate.

I'm European. I don't know how they should solve it, but it isn't my job either. As I said above, they need to find some way of solving this, there is no defense here to this happening.

 

[Kthulhu]

It happens a lot in America as well, or at least doctors see a lot of children who have it done to them.. If I had my way, the parents who do it would be charged with child abuse but it's a hard thing to combat

I agree. You'd go to jail if you tried to cut off a kids arm, why is their junk any different?

 

[ClosingADoor]

If Norway can educate people with anti rape courses, then why shouldn't we hold Germany to a similar standard? There is absolutely no excuse to this happening within Germany's borders.

Just to get this straight: you are blaming Germany for the actions of people who come there and do this stuff?

Anti rape courses... The fact that this is needed is just plain sad. I get there is a difference in education and such, but please don't put the blame of this on the government accepting people into their countries.

 

[Kthulhu]

Just to get this straight: you are blaming Germany for the actions of people who come there and do this stuff?

Anti rape courses... The fact that this is needed is just plain sad. I get there is a difference in education and such, but please don't put the blame of this on the government accepting people into their countries.

Shouldn't the government take steps to prevent it's citizens from breaking the law, or is fgm not illegal in Germany?

Maybe because people bizarrely defend it.

How can you be for male genital mutilation without consent and against female genital mutilation?

It doesn't matter which one is worse. That's irrelevant.
They are both weird barbaric practices.



The whole practice is fucking sick.

What's worse is that when you find out why circumcision is popular in the West.

It's thanks to the dude who invented corn flakes. He thought that it'd stop kids from masturbating, he also tried to push fgm here and failed (thankfully).

IMO if you want to get circumcised then that's fine, but your parents shouldn't force it upon you.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Shouldn't the government take steps to prevent it's citizens from breaking the law, or is fgm not illegal in Germany?

Yes, but the actual action is on the people doing it. They are in the wrong. I don't see how Germany is somehow responsible for this mess because they didn't offer "anti rape courses" and things like that.

I don't subscribe to the narrative that when the government just throws some courses at people, they somehow suddenly come to the conclusion: hey, this is wrong, I won't do it now.

 

[Kthulhu]

Yes, but the actual action is on the people doing it. They are in the wrong. I don't see how Germany is somehow responsible for this mess because they didn't offer "anti rape courses" and things like that.

You have classes for driving in Germany no? Obviously this a solution to a problem.

These people are from extremely conservative cultures and follow and often extremely radical version of Islam.

This is all they've ever know, and you should try to help them.

 

[bionic77]

Who does this? Some rogue doctors? Religious people?

They need to find and prosecute whoever does it. Also really fucked up from the parents if they decided to do this (I say if because I once read a very fucked up story about a relative who did it to someone else's kid without telling the mother, though I am sure that is the exception and not the rule).

 

[ClosingADoor]

You have classes for driving in Germany no? Obviously this a solution to a problem.

These people are from extremely conservative cultures and follow and often extremely radical version of Islam.

This is all they've ever know, and you should try to help them.

You are comparing the abuse of female genital mutilation to a driving class?

You are painting these people as innocent, as if they don't know that what they are doing is hurting someone. I can't do that. They are active participants in a cruel and barbaric thing. They are not the victims here that we need to help.

Maybe if people follow such radical and extreme things, they shouldn't be in Germany.

 

[Corronchilejano]

There're tribes of natives here in Colombia that still practice this shit. The government has no idea how to proceed with them. And a lot of children that undergo this "procedure" also end up dying.


I wonder why the fuck this ended up being acceptable to anyone anywhere at any time.

 

[johancruijff]

Who does this? Some rogue doctors? Religious people?

They need to find and prosecute whoever does it. Also really fucked up from the parents if they decided to do this (I say if because I once read a very fucked up story about a relative who did it to someone else's kid without telling the mother, though I am sure that is the exception and not the rule).

from wiki

The procedures are generally performed by a traditional circumciser (cutter or exciseuse) in the girls' homes, with or without anaesthesia. The cutter is usually an older woman, but in communities where the male barber has assumed the role of health worker he will perform FGM too.[27][c]

When traditional cutters are involved, non-sterile devices are likely to be used, including knives, razors, scissors, glass, sharpened rocks and fingernails.[29]:491 According to a nurse in Uganda, quoted in 2007 in The Lancet, a cutter would use one knife on up to 30 girls at a time.[30]

Health professionals are often involved in Egypt, Kenya, Indonesia and Sudan. In Egypt 77 percent of FGM procedures, and in Indonesia over 50 percent, were performed by medical professionals as of 2008 and 2016.[31][3] Women in Egypt reported in 1995 that a local anaesthetic had been used on their daughters in 60 percent of cases, a general anaesthetic in 13 percent and neither in 25 percent (two percent were missing/don't know).[32]

 

[Haunted]

You have classes for driving in Germany no? Obviously this a solution to a problem.

These people are from extremely conservative cultures and follow and often extremely radical version of Islam.

This is all they've ever know, and you should try to help them.

Thinking that religious people capable of having their children mutilated like this will change their mind because some German bureaucrat tells them that it's bad (OH REALLY?) seems exceedingly naive to me.

I can understand your anger against this sick practice and the apparent helplessness on how to deal with this, but screaming "someone do something!" is not a solution by itself.

The law is clear cut, suspects are monitored and police are allowed to confiscate passports to prevent potential suspects from traveling (and hopefully, doing this).


How do you regulate what people do in their own time in their own homes while respecting the constitution and right to privacy when the only indication and commonality of the suspect demographic is their religion?

 

[vonStirlitz]

It's not nonsense. It's editorial decisions about what is deemed significant and what gets reported and promoted. There is a lot of news in the world but there are policy decisions as to what gets relayed. People get primed for this self/other discourse and then become carriers for its propagation in forums. It's about the whole chain of unconscious selection and the way in which we select what facts are salient and Colour our view of the world.

An article like this (even if correct which appears to be the case) sits in the mind and will colour any future perceptions of similar articles.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's not nonsense. It's editorial decisions about what is deemed significant and what gets reported and promoted. There is a lot of news in the world but there are policy decisions as to what gets relayed. People get primed for this self/other discourse and then become carriers for its propagation in forums. It's about the whole chain of unconscious selection and the way in which we select what facts are salient and Colour our view of the world.

An article like this (even if correct which appears to be the case) sits in the mind and will colour any future perceptions of similar articles.

So you think the suffering of 50.000 people was not worth reporting on, because it might align with an election?

Should we just censor anything during an election that might have an influence on how people vote?

It is an official government report, released on a day that is there to call out attention to this horrible practice, and it was reported upon. There is nothing strange about this.

 

[vonStirlitz]

So you think the suffering of 50.000 people was not worth reporting on, because it might align with an election?

Should we just censor anything during an election that might have an influence on how people vote?

I'm not saying that. It's a valid article in and of itself. I am just pointing to possible meta tendencies in news reporting of Islam and the perpetuation of "they aren't like us" narratives that accompany this.

There are elections in France and Hermany this year. Breibart is operating there now. There will be a lot of these types of articles this year.

 

[Merino]

Awaiting cultural relativism posters.

You need to understand that cultural relativism is modernly used not so much as an excuse for these cultures to practice their rituals but rather to point out how deeply ingrained these practices are culturally and how difficult it will be to change the relative viewpoints in those cultures. Hence that in 2016 it is still so widely practiced despite the disgust of this cultural practice from the rest of the world. Simply condemning it from a western imperialistic perspective will do little to advance your cause in changing it. One needs to understand better why it is in their relative culture accepted to the point where it is not men who force these woman to undergo it but it is woman that elect to do so themselves. Culture isn't some misogynistic game invented by the male elders of a tribe you know.

The sort of feminist argument about this is that it’s about the control of women but also of their sexuality and sexual pleasure. But when you talk to people on the ground, you also hear people talking about the idea that it’s women’s business. As in, it’s for women to decide this. If we look at the data across Africa, the support for the practice is stronger among women than among men.

So, the patriarchy argument is just not a simple one. Female circumcision is part of demarcating insider and outsider status. Are you part of this group of elder women who have power in their society?

The woman is going to go live with her husband’s family, and it’s part of inclusion among other women whose identity is as a circumcised woman. She’s reliant on her mother-in-law and her husband’s kin. So it’s part of becoming inducted into this female network that’s really important.

Also, for us, we believe that bodies are natural and perfect. Not everybody believes that. Some people in Africa believe that bodies are androgynous and that all male and female bodies contain male and female parts.

So a man’s foreskin is a female part. And for a female, the covering of the clitoris is a male part. The idea of becoming a wholly formed female includes being cut—having any part that is somewhat male-like removed from the body.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...tal-mutilation-cutting-anthropologist/389640/


In regards to male circumcision I would classify this as straight up mutilation also. It may be less invasive then some of the FGM practices (probably comparable to the removal of the clit hood while leaving the clit) which generally are far more destructive and sexually problematic but a it's all grounded in a misconstrued conception of human sexuality and health.

The problem is that banning it, or even educating people about it, does not necessarily stop the practices as long as they are also tied into power and identity structures on the local cultural level.

 

[mrklaw]

Oh please, read up on FGM. The practice of male circumcision is in no way comparable to FGM.

If this is a troll post, then read up on FGM anyways.

Honest question incoming.

While the end result may be very different, is there evidence that the root cause is different? I.e is it possible that FGM was started for an equivalent reason to male circumcision, and the way that female sexual sensation is affected wasn't the aim, but an unintended effect?

 

[Audioboxer]

You need to understand that cultural relativism is modernly used not so much as an excuse for these cultures to practice their rituals but rather to point out how deeply ingrained these practices are culturally and how difficult it will be to change the relative viewpoints in those cultures. Hence that in 2016 it is still so widely practiced despite the disgust of this cultural practice from the rest of the world. Simply condemning it from a western imperialistic perspective will do little to advance your cause in changing it. One needs to understand better why it is in their relative culture accepted to the point where it is not men who force these woman to undergo it but it is woman that elect to do so themselves. Culture isn't some misogynistic game invented by the male elders of a tribe you know.





https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...tal-mutilation-cutting-anthropologist/389640/


In regards to male circumcision I would classify this as straight up mutilation also. It may be less invasive then some of the FGM practices (probably comparable to the removal of the clit hood while leaving the clit) which generally are far more destructive and sexually problematic but a it's all grounded in a misconstrued conception of human sexuality and health.

The problem is that banning it, or even educating people about it, does not necessarily stop the practices as long as they are also tied into power and identity structures on the local cultural level.

While this is true we still have a basic moral principle to say openly we oppose it, even if words of condemnation don't instantly make it stop happening. Open dialogue is always the start of how we advocate for change and/or start to challenge cultures.

Honest question incoming.

While the end result may be very different, is there evidence that the root cause is different? I.e is it possible that FGM was started for an equivalent reason to male circumcision, and the way that female sexual sensation is affected wasn't the aim, but an unintended effect?

Wikipedia is a catch-all, but you will find answers there

The practice is rooted in gender inequality, attempts to control women's sexuality, and ideas about purity, modesty and beauty. It is usually initiated and carried out by women, who see it as a source of honour, and who fear that failing to have their daughters and granddaughters cut will expose the girls to social exclusion.[a] The health effects depend on the procedure; they can include recurrent infections, difficulty urinating and passing menstrual flow, chronic pain, the development of cysts, an inability to get pregnant, complications during childbirth, and fatal bleeding.[6] There are no known health benefits.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

 

[Jumeira]

Female circumcision is fucked up. From a Muslim family with Pakistan origins and this shit makes everyone feel nasty thinking about it. Male circumcision is the only thing in my family and that's always been justified as a hygiene thing.

Yeah, it has no place in islam if your community is from Asia/parts of Arabia. Actually, it only came to my attention on the internet, I had no idea this was practiced, its absolutely rejected and deemed as torture. I wonder why African communities promotes this, as it harms the body and risks child birth (illegal in Islam) and prevents enjoyment of sex, which again is promoted between husband & wife. Needs to be eradicated, horrible practice. Those poor girls

 

[nkarafo]

That's what religions and savage culture practices do to people. When the world stops tolerates them then maybe savagery like this will stop.

 

[pashmilla]

Yeah, it has no place in islam if your community is from Asia/parts of Arabia. Actually, it only came to my attention on the internet, I had no idea this was practiced, its absolutely rejected and deemed as torture. I wonder why African communities promotes this, as it harms the body and risks child birth (illegal in Islam) and prevents enjoyment of sex, which again is promoted between husband & wife. Needs to be eradicated, horrible practice. Those poor girls

Pretty sure this is exactly it. Gotta stop those slutty women from enjoying sex amirite.

 

[Kthulhu]

You are comparing the abuse of female genital mutilation to a driving class?

You are painting these people as innocent, as if they don't know that what they are doing is hurting someone. I can't do that. They are active participants in a cruel and barbaric thing. They are not the victims here that we need to help.

Maybe if people follow such radical and extreme things, they shouldn't be in Germany.

You mentioned anti-rape classes, that's what I'm referring to.

I'm not saying their innocent, they are victims of their own culture. They don't think what they're doing is wrong because they were raised to think it's right.

How much about you is due to your upbringing?

Thinking that religious people capable of having their children mutilated like this will change their mind because some German bureaucrat tells them that it's bad (OH REALLY?) seems exceedingly naive to me.

I can understand your anger against this sick practice and the apparent helplessness on how to deal with this, but screaming "someone do something!" is not a solution by itself.

The law is clear cut, suspects are monitored and police are allowed to confiscate passports to prevent potential suspects from traveling (and hopefully, doing this).


How do you regulate what people do in their own time in their own homes while respecting the constitution and right to privacy when the only indication and commonality of the suspect demographic is their religion?

The EU has a serious problem with integrating immigrants not from the EU and helping them adapt. Norway seems to have found a solution.

 

[Chuckie]

Yeah, it has no place in islam if your community is from Asia/parts of Arabia.

They do it in Indonesia.

The 'light' version though where a part of skin on top of the clitoris gets cut.

 

[HerrPalomar]

Its always the same when there is a discussion about male circumcision.

People hat are circumcised can't accept that their parents willingly mutilated them and now they have to live with a arguably lower sensitivity and thus pleasure at sex. They are unwilling to accept this fact, so they create some kind of narrative for themselves where being circumcised is a good thing: Better hygiene, lower HIV infection rate etc. But they willingly ignore that these benefits mainly concern people living in third world countries.

Its a barbaric, unnecessary practice that thank god is not practiced in Europe.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You mentioned anti-rape classes, that's what I'm referring to.

I'm not saying their innocent, they are victims of their own culture. They don't think what they're doing is wrong because they were raised to think it's right.

How much about you is due to your upbringing?

So you are comparing driving classes to anti rape classes? I still fail to see what these have to do with each other.

Yes, upbringing plays a role. But there is a line where you say: this is unacceptable no matter where you come from. Would you also say: well, this neo-nazi just kicked an immigrant to death, but with some classes he wouldn't have done it?

I just refuse to see anyone who commits such horrible things as being a victim like you do.

 

[Kthulhu]

So you are comparing driving classes to anti rape classes? I still fail to see what these have to do with each other.

Yes, upbringing plays a role. But there is a line where you say: this is unacceptable no matter where you come from. Would you also say: well, this neo-nazi just kicked an immigrant to death, but with some classes he wouldn't have done it?

I just refuse to see anyone who commits such horrible things as being a victim like you do.

I see you subscribe to the flawed idea that people don't change.

Stuff like this is why the EU has so many problems with refugees and immigrants.

You can help these people integrate and learn that what they believed is worth, but I guess thats too hard.

 

[dan2026]

I don't even understand the hygiene argument for circumcision.
It takes a second at most to clean under your foreskin.

Would you cut off your fingernails because its too much effort to clean under them?
Of course you wouldn't.

Its a weird absurd practice, my brain can't wrap my head around it.
Not to mention a horrible and cruel thing to do to a baby.

All genital mutilation is horrible and weird. This is 2017 for fuck sake.
This sort of shit should of died out centuries ago.

 

[Jumeira]

They do it in Indonesia.

The 'light' version though where a part of skin on top of the clitoris gets cut.

Still awful, im reading up on it now. Terrifying stuff.

 

[HerrPalomar]

I don't even understand the hygiene argument for circumcision.
It takes a second at most to clean under your foreskin.

Would you cut off your fingernails because its too much effort to clean under them?
Of course you wouldn't.

Its a weird absurd practice, my brain can't wrap my head around it.
Not to mention a horrible and cruel thing to do to a baby.

Both forms of circumsion (male and female) are disgusting. Of course if you only measure absolute pleasure loss, the effect is greater for woman but there is still one associated with man.

It is such a disgusting practice. It should be banned except for definitive medical reasons, such as tight foreskin. We had this debate here in Germany. But we could not ban it because of "freedom of religion" for jews and muslims. I say fuck freedom of religion. Reason has to succeed over religion. We live in a secular country. Want to practice your disgusting medieval mutliation? Go to a country where it is allowed or do it when you are 18.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I see you subscribe to the flawed idea that people don't change.

Stuff like this is why the EU has so many problems with refugees and immigrants.

You can help these people integrate and learn that what they believed is worth, but I guess thats too hard.

I subscribe to the idea of using our resources to help people that do not actively engage in these terrible practices, since there are millions wanting a better life and we can only help a tiny portion in relocating to Europe.

You put all the responsibility of this on Europe, saying that these people just need some education, as if that magically changes people. That is a process of multiple generations probably, and with those resources we can help a ton of other people and meanwhile try to influence the countries where this stuff is commonplace to change their ways. Cure it at the place of origin.

 

[JP_]

"Most of the women living in Germany who have suffered FGM originate from Eritrea, Somalia, Egypt, Ethiopia or Iraq."

The reaction seems to be along the lines of "people that do this don't belong in Germany" but isn't it a good thing that they're in Germany now where the practice is likely to come to an end? These are regional cultural practices that date back to before Islam existed and they won't end overnight but isn't a more connected world going to be better at ending things like this?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Does that make it okay to perform a removal of part of a male baby's reproductive organs without his consent?

Of course not, we really shouldn't allow people doing that to children.

 

[HerrPalomar]

"Most of the women living in Germany who have suffered FGM originate from Eritrea, Somalia, Egypt, Ethiopia or Iraq."

The reaction seems to be along the lines of "people that do this don't belong in Germany" but isn't it a good thing that they're in Germany now where the practice is likely to come to an end? These are regional cultural practices that date back to before Islam existed and they won't end overnight but isn't a more connected world going to be better at ending things like this?

People that perform such horrible acts just do not fit into a western society. The poor woman are welcome, but sadly the guys will come too and bring their medieval worldview with them

 

[SilentRacoon]

And people tell me my organs are safe, holy shit this is terrible and the reason I would never be an organ donor with shady shit like this going on behind the curtains.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And people tell me my organs are safe, holy shit this is terrible and the reason I would never be an organ donor with shady shit like this going on behind the curtains.

Please be joking.

 

[Kthulhu]

I subscribe to the idea of using our resources to help people that do not actively engage in these terrible practices, since there are millions wanting a better life and we can only help a tiny portion in relocating to Europe.

You put all the responsibility of this on Europe, saying that these people just need some education, as if that magically changes people. That is a process of multiple generations probably, and with those resources we can help a ton of other people and meanwhile try to influence the countries where this stuff is commonplace to change their ways. Cure it at the place of origin.

"We can only help our people"

"We should try to change the Middle East"

People that perform such horrible acts just do not fit into a western society. The poor woman are welcome, but sadly the guys will come too and bring their medieval worldview with them

Your naive if you think the women don't believe this shit too.

 

[Don_Tombery]

I Just to make sure since, reading the thread I have the feeling some of you understand it wrong (or it was bad translated).

The numbers in this study are not cases of FGM performed IN Germany, its women with FGM currently living in Germany. Most of the cases are from immigrants/refugees that arrived here and that need help.
I'm not saying that this makes these numbers somehow better or that there are zero cases here (you can never fully control what people do) and nothing has to be done, especially preemptive and educative (not sure if that's the correct word).

Most cases in the study are preexisting or have been performed on 'vacation' outside the reach of German jurisdiction since of course it is illegal (max 15 years/ min 1 year) and prosecuted here. (And it's of course also illegal when it is done on said 'vacation' and they return to Germany, but that doesn't help the child)

One step that's done is, that starting this year, the police is allowed to confiscate the passport of a child / its parents to stop them leaving the country, if there is a suspicion that a child won't return unharmed from a 'vacation'.
And although this might sound cynical, when they can't do it abroad and try to do it here, the police at least can prosecute it easier and hopefully prevent as many cases as possible.

 

[HerrPalomar]

"We can only help our people"

"We should try to change the Middle East"



Your naive if you think the women don't believe this shit too.

Yeah you are probably right. But I feel for these woman on whom those acts have been performed.

 

[99Luffy]

Maybe because people bizarrely defend it.

How can you be for male genital mutilation without consent and against female genital mutilation?

It doesn't matter which one is worse. That's irrelevant.
They are both weird barbaric practices.

Umm male circumcision is a procedure that docters perform for certain medical issues. FGM isnt.

 

[ClosingADoor]

"We can only help our people"

"We should try to change the Middle East"

I have said none of those things.

I have not mentioned only helping "our people", whatever that might mean. I have said there are limited resources, and I rather have the people moving into a progressive country to share those same values and be open to those.

I did not mention the Middle-east. I said we should continue to support organisations that tackle these problems in the countries where it is a large problem. You disagree with that?

 

[HerrPalomar]

Umm male circumcision is a procedure that docters perform for certain medical issues. FGM isnt.

An arm or leg amputation is also a procedure that doctors perform for certain medical issues.

 

[Nivash]

People that perform such horrible acts just do not fit into a western society. The poor woman are welcome, but sadly the guys will come too and bring their medieval worldview with them

That's a bit of an odd statement considering that it's pretty much universally women that perform FGM. True, it's part of a male-driven misogynist tradition and cultural view, but the women are absolutely not hapless victims in this either - they're victim and perpetrator both. It boggles the mind of people who haven't grown up in that kind of environment but, quite simply, culture is an incredibly powerful thing.

From what I have seen, the tradition is typically not carried over to the next generation once they reach the west, though. Part of it is because of practicality: they typically lose the members of the communities that provided the "expertise" to continue the practice. But I also think it's because they understand how mutilating it is. Many are (understandably) worried about child birth, and pretty much all will remember how painful it makes sexual relations. It doesn't take a whole lot of reinforcement from their new host countries to make them conclude that it truly is wrong, especially if it's followed by assurances that the state will protect them from being forced to have it inflicted on their daughters.